TEDGlobal 2012
Jason McCue: Terrorism is a failed brand
杰森.麦丘：恐怖主义是个失败的品牌
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在这个扣人心弦的演讲中，杰森.麦丘呼吁我们以新的方式去回击恐怖主义，去削弱其可信度，而这正是那些新加入者投身其中的原因。他和我们分享了一些真实的故事，讲述他和其他一些活跃分子用这种方式去参与和创造变革。
Jason McCue - Lawyer
Jason McCue litigates against terrorists, dictators and others who seem above the law, using the legal and judicial system in innovative ways. Full bio
Jason McCue litigates against terrorists, dictators and others who seem above the law, using the legal and judicial system in innovative ways. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:16
We most certainly do talk to terrorists, no question about it.
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毫无疑问，我们的确要与恐怖分子对话。
00:21
We are at war with a new form of terrorism.
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我们现在正在与一种新型恐怖主义作战。
00:27
It's sort of the good old, traditional form of terrorism,
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有点类似于传统恐怖主义的形式，
00:30
but it's sort of been packaged for the 21st century.
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但又裹着21世纪的新包装。
00:34
One of the big things about countering terrorism
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反恐的一大问题是
00:38
is, how do you perceive it?
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你怎样看待恐怖主义
00:41
Because perception leads to your response to it.
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因为观感决定了你的应对方式
00:45
So if you have a traditional perception of terrorism,
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因此如果你以传统的视角来看待恐怖主义
00:49
it would be that it's one of criminality, one of war.
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那恐怖主义就是犯罪，就是战争
00:53
So how are you going to respond to it?
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如果是这样，你会如何应对？
00:55
Naturally, it would follow that you meet kind with kind.
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很自然的，你会以牙还牙
00:58
You fight it. If you have a more modernist approach,
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你会与恐怖主义斗争。但如果你持一种更现代一点的方式
01:02
and your perception of terrorism is almost cause-and-effect,
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认为它几乎是一种因果效应
01:06
then naturally from that, the responses that come out of it
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那你的应对就自然不会那么
01:10
are much more asymmetrical.
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针锋相对
01:14
We live in a modern, global world.
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我们生活在现代化、全球化的时代里
01:18
Terrorists have actually adapted to it.
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实际上恐怖主义分子已经适应了这个时代
01:22
It's something we have to, too, and that means the people
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我们也应该去适应，这意味着那些
01:25
who are working on counterterrorism responses
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效力于反恐领域的人
01:28
have to start, in effect, putting on
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不得不开始，确切地说，戴上
01:31
their Google-tinted glasses, or whatever.
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谷歌眼镜之类的东西。
01:36
For my part, what I wanted us to do was just to look at
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而我的论点，我想要大家做的只是
01:40
terrorism as though it was a global brand,
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将恐怖主义看做一个全球性的品牌
01:44
say, Coca-Cola.
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比如，可口可乐
01:45
Both are fairly bad for your health. (Laughter)
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都对你的健康没什么好处（笑声）
01:52
If you look at it as a brand in those ways,
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如果你把它看成一个品牌
01:56
what you'll come to realize is, it's a pretty flawed product.
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你就会发现这产品是有缺陷的
01:59
As we've said, it's pretty bad for your health,
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就像我们刚说到的，他对你的健康有害
02:02
it's bad for those who it affects,
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对受它影响的人也有害
02:04
and it's not actually good if you're a suicide bomber either.
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当然，自己去做人体炸弹也没什么好处
02:07
It doesn't actually do what it says on the tin.
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它通常言行不一
02:11
You're not really going to get 72 virgins in heaven.
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你死后到了天堂，不会有72个处女等着你
02:16
It's not going to happen, I don't think.
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这不会发生，我认为不会
02:18
And you're not really going to, in the '80s, end capitalism
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当然，在80年代，你也不会真的去终结资本主义
02:22
by supporting one of these groups. It's a load of nonsense.
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通过支持这些组织，这纯属胡说
02:25
But what you realize, it's got an Achilles' heel.
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你要知道，恐怖主义有“阿基里斯的脚踝”
02:28
The brand has an Achilles' heel.
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即是说，这个品牌具有致命缺陷
02:31
We've mentioned the health,
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我们刚刚已经提及了它危害健康
02:33
but it needs consumers to buy into it.
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但它也需要消费者
02:36
The consumers it needs are the terrorist constituency.
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它需要的消费者就是恐怖主义的信徒
02:40
They're the people who buy into the brand, support them,
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他们相信，并且支持这个品牌
02:43
facilitate them, and they're the people
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他们会推动这个品牌的发展，而这些人
02:46
we've got to reach out to.
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就是我们要去接触的人
02:49
We've got to attack that brand in front of them.
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我们需要在他们面前打垮这个品牌
02:52
There's two essential ways of doing that, if we carry on this brand theme.
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如果继续刚才的品牌话题，我们有两个途径来击垮它
02:56
One is reducing their market. What I mean is,
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一是缩小其市场，也就是说
02:59
it's their brand against our brand. We've got to compete.
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拿我们自己的品牌和他们竞争
03:04
We've got to show we're a better product.
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我们必须告诉消费者我们的产品更好
03:06
If I'm trying to show we're a better product,
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如果我想让人们相信我的产品更好
03:10
I probably wouldn't do things like Guantanamo Bay.
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那么我就不会做出像关塔那摩虐囚事件那样（过分的事）
03:14
We've talked there about curtailing the underlying need
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我们已经讨论了削减对产品的潜在需求
03:18
for the product itself. You could be looking there at
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你也许已经注意到
03:22
poverty, injustice, all those sorts of things
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贫穷、社会不公之类的问题
03:25
which feed terrorism.
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是有益于恐怖主义繁衍的
03:27
The other thing to do is to knock the product,
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另一个途径就是打击产品本身
03:31
attack the brand myth, as we've said.
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就像我们所说的，打破品牌神话
03:33
You know, there's nothing heroic about killing a young kid.
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众所周知，杀害儿童不是英雄该做的事
03:36
Perhaps we need to focus on that and get that message back across.
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也许我们该关注这些事，并且把消息告诉人们
03:41
We've got to reveal the dangers in the product.
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我们必须揭露这种产品的危害
03:44
Our target audience, it's not just the producers of terrorism,
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我们的对象，不应该仅仅是恐怖主义的制造者
03:48
as I've said, the terrorists.
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也就是那些恐怖分子
03:49
It's not just the marketeers of terrorism,
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也不应仅仅是恐怖主义的推崇者
03:51
which is those who finance, those who facilitate it,
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也就是那些赞助恐怖主义，为其提供便利的人
03:56
but it's the consumers of terrorism.
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而应包含恐怖主义的受众
03:58
We've got to get in to those homelands.
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我们要进入恐怖主义滋生的地方
04:01
That's where they recruit from. That's where they get their power and strength.
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在这些地方，恐怖主义招揽信徒，不断壮大
04:05
That's where their consumers come from.
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这就是他们发展消费者的地方
04:07
And we have to get our messaging in there.
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我们必须给这些地方带去我们的信息
04:11
So the essentials are, we've got to have interaction
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所以，关键就是在这些地方展开互动
04:15
in those areas, with the terrorists, the facilitators, etc.
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和恐怖主义分子，和恐怖主义的支持者等进行接触
04:18
We've got to engage, we've got to educate,
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我们要做的就是接触、教育
04:21
and we've got to have dialogue.
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和人们展开对话
04:24
Now, staying on this brand thing for just a few more seconds,
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现在让我们继续将恐怖主义看成一个品牌
04:28
think about delivery mechanisms.
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想想他们的传播机制
04:31
How are we going to do these attacks?
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我们该怎样应对恐怖主义袭击呢？
04:33
Well, reducing the market is really one for governments
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当然，政府和公民都应参与来缩小恐怖主义的市场
04:36
and civil society. We've got to show we're better.
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我们必须向人们展示我们的产品更好
04:40
We've got to show our values.
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我们要传播自己的价值观
04:43
We've got to practice what we preach.
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我们必须言行一致
04:46
But when it comes to knocking the brand,
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但说到打击品牌自身
04:48
if the terrorists are Coca-Cola and we're Pepsi,
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如果恐怖主义是可口可乐，我们自己是百事的话
04:52
I don't think, being Pepsi, anything we say about Coca-Cola,
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那我们对于可口可乐的指责
04:56
anyone's going to believe us.
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基本上没人会信
04:58
So we've got to find a different mechanism,
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所以我们必须找到一种新的机制
05:01
and one of the best mechanisms I've ever come across
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而我见过最好的媒介
05:03
is the victims of terrorism.
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就是恐怖主义的受害者
05:06
They are somebody who can actually stand there and say,
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他们可以理直气壮的告诉人们
05:09
"This product's crap. I had it and I was sick for days.
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“这产品烂透了，我用了之后，病了好几天”
05:13
It burnt my hand, whatever." You believe them.
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“我的手被烧伤了”，人们就会信
05:17
You can see their scars. You trust them.
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人们可以看见他们的伤疤，会信任他们
05:19
But whether it's victims, whether it's governments,
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但不论是通过受害者、政府，
05:24
NGOs, or even the Queen yesterday, in Northern Ireland,
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还是非政府组织，甚至是昨天在北爱尔兰的女王陛下
05:30
we have to interact and engage with those different
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我们都必须接触所有和恐怖主义
05:34
layers of terrorism, and, in effect,
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有关的人，说实话
05:39
we do have to have a little dance with the devil.
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我们是得与狼共舞
05:43
This is my favorite part of my speech.
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下面到了我最喜欢的部分了
05:46
I wanted to blow you all up to try and make a point,
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我原来想把大家都炸飞，来阐释我的观点
05:49
but — (Laughter) —
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但是…（笑声）
05:53
TED, for health and safety reasons, have told me
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TED告诉我说考虑到健康安全因素
05:56
I've got to do a countdown, so
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我必须先倒数计时
05:57
I feel like a bit of an Irish or Jewish terrorist,
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所以我觉得自己像个爱尔兰或者是犹太恐怖主义分子
06:00
sort of a health and safety terrorist, and I — (Laughter) —
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一个注重健康安全的恐怖主义分子…（笑声）
06:06
I've got to count 3, 2, 1, and
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我必须先数3,2,1
06:09
it's a bit alarming, so thinking of what my motto would be,
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声音会有点响，所以我觉得我的宣言该是
06:12
and it would be, "Body parts, not heart attacks."
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“炸死而非吓死”
06:15
So 3, 2, 1. (Explosion sound)
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3,2,1（爆炸声）
06:21
Very good. (Laughter)
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很好（笑声）
06:26
Now, lady in 15J was a suicide bomber amongst us all.
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现在，假设坐在15J的女士是恐怖主义分子
06:33
We're all victims of terrorism.
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我们都是受害者
06:36
There's 625 of us in this room. We're going to be scarred for life.
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屋里有625个人，我们一辈子都会带有各种伤痕
06:40
There was a father and a son who sat in that seat over there.
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有一对父子坐在那边
06:45
The son's dead. The father lives.
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儿子死了，父亲还活着
06:47
The father will probably kick himself for years to come
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父亲很可能会自责好几年
06:53
that he didn't take that seat instead of his kid.
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怪自己让儿子坐在那个位子上
06:57
He's going to take to alcohol, and he's probably
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他会开始酗酒，很可能
06:59
going to kill himself in three years. That's the stats.
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3年内就自杀，这是统计结果
07:04
There's a very young, attractive lady over here,
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有位年轻迷人的女士
07:07
and she has something which I think's the worst form
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她受的伤是我见过自杀式爆炸导致的
07:10
of psychological, physical injury I've ever seen
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最严重的心理和生理伤害
07:13
out of a suicide bombing: It's human shrapnel.
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叫做人体弹片
07:17
What it means is, when she sat in a restaurant
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也就是说，她在今后10年，15年
07:19
in years to come, 10 years to come, 15 years to come,
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坐在一家餐馆里
07:22
or she's on the beach, every so often she's going to start
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或是是坐在沙滩上的时候，她会开始
07:24
rubbing her skin, and out of there will come
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摩擦自己的皮肤，然后发现
07:27
a piece of that shrapnel.
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有零星的弹片出现
07:30
And that is a hard thing for the head to take.
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这是件让人难以接受的事
07:35
There's a lady over there as well who lost her legs
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另一位女士在爆炸中
07:38
in this bombing.
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失去了双腿
07:41
She's going to find out that she gets a pitiful amount
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她会发现自己只能得到
07:45
of money off our government
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政府为这起爆炸事件
07:50
for looking after what's happened to her.
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支付的微薄的赔偿金
07:53
She had a daughter who was going to go to one of the best
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她的女儿本可以上最好的大学
07:55
universities. She's going to give up university
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而现在却不得不
07:58
to look after Mum.
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留在家里照顾母亲
08:01
We're all here, and all of those who watch it
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我们都经历了爆炸事件，还有所有看到事件发生的人
08:04
are going to be traumatized by this event,
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都会受到创伤
08:07
but all of you here who are victims are going to learn
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但你们，也就是所有受害者不得不
08:10
some hard truths.
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接受一个残酷的事实
08:11
That is, our society, we sympathize, but after a while,
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那就是，我们的社会一开始会同情受害者，但不久后
08:16
we start to ignore. We don't do enough as a society.
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我们就会遗忘他们，社会是无情的
08:20
We do not look after our victims, and we do not enable them,
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我们不会照顾受害者，赋予他们应得的权利
08:24
and what I'm going to try and show is that actually,
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但我想要说的是，其实
08:27
victims are the best weapon we have
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受害者是我们拥有的
08:29
against more terrorism.
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最好的反恐武器
08:32
How would the government at the turn of the millennium
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政府从21世纪伊始到今天
08:37
approach today? Well, we all know.
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是怎么做的？我们都知道
08:39
What they'd have done then is an invasion.
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政府选择了入侵
08:42
If the suicide bomber was from Wales,
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如果自杀式炸弹来自威尔士
08:45
good luck to Wales, I'd say.
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那我只能说，祝你好运，威尔士
08:47
Knee-jerk legislation, emergency provision legislation --
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膝跳反应法案、应急法案
08:51
which hits at the very basis of our society, as we all know --
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打击了我们社会的基础，众所周知
08:54
it's a mistake.
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就是个错误
08:58
We're going to drive prejudice throughout Edinburgh,
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我们正让偏见蔓延整个爱丁堡
09:01
throughout the U.K., for Welsh people.
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对威尔士人来说，偏见存在于整个英国
09:06
Today's approach, governments have learned from their mistakes.
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现在的办法是，政府从中吸取教训
09:11
They are looking at what I've started off on,
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他们开始研究我一开始提出的那种方法
09:13
on these more asymmetrical approaches to it,
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用这些非对称的方法去应对
09:17
more modernist views, cause and effect.
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以更现代的视角，去研究因果关系
09:20
But mistakes of the past are inevitable.
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但是过去的错误是不可避免的
09:22
It's human nature.
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这是人性使然
09:24
The fear and the pressure to do something on them
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在做这些事所背负的恐惧和压力
09:28
is going to be immense. They are going to make mistakes.
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是巨大的，他们会犯错
09:30
They're not just going to be smart.
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他们就是无法变聪明
09:34
There was a famous Irish terrorist who once summed up
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曾有个著名的爱尔兰恐怖分子
09:37
the point very beautifully. He said,
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总结的很恰当。他说，
09:40
"The thing is, about the British government, is, is that it's got
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“对于英国政府而言，他们必须一直幸运
09:42
to be lucky all the time, and we only have to be lucky once."
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而我们只要时来运转一次就够了”
09:47
So what we need to do is we have to effect it.
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所以我们要做的是去影响它
09:50
We've got to start thinking about being more proactive.
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我们应该试着更具前瞻性
09:53
We need to build an arsenal of noncombative weapons
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我们需要建造非爆炸性的武器
09:57
in this war on terrorism.
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用于反恐的斗争
09:59
But of course, it's ideas -- is not something that governments do very well.
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当然，这只是一些想法——而非政府擅长的常规做法
10:07
I want to go back just to before the bang, to this idea of
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我转回来谈谈刚才弄出爆炸之前那些关于品牌的想法
10:12
brand, and I was talking about Coke and Pepsi, etc.
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我说起了可口可乐和百事可乐之类的事情
10:16
We see it as terrorism versus democracy in that brand war.
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我们将恐怖主义和民主的对垒看成品牌之战
10:20
They'll see it as freedom fighters and truth
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恐怖分子却认为是自由主义斗士与真相
10:22
against injustice, imperialism, etc.
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打击不公正和帝国主义的范畴
10:29
We do have to see this as a deadly battlefield.
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我们确实该将这看成殊死搏斗的战场
10:33
It's not just [our] flesh and blood they want.
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恐怖分子不仅仅想要我们的血肉
10:36
They actually want our cultural souls, and that's why
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他们事实上想要我们的文化之魂，这也是为什么
10:39
the brand analogy is a very interesting way of looking at this.
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品牌的类比是看待这问题的一个新颖的方式
10:43
If we look at al Qaeda. Al Qaeda was essentially
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我们来看看基地组织，他一开始仅仅是
10:47
a product on a shelf in a souk somewhere
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（穆斯林国家的）露天市场里某个货架上
10:52
which not many people had heard of.
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不太有人问津的产品
10:54
9/11 launched it. It was its big marketing day,
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911袭击发生时，就是它最好的市场活动日
10:58
and it was packaged for the 21st century. They knew what they were doing.
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他们也为21世纪做了新包装，他们知道自己在做什么
11:03
They were effectively [doing] something in this brand image
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他们在品牌形象上做了一些卓有成效的事
11:07
of creating a brand which can be franchised around
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即创造了能在全球授权的品牌
11:10
the world, where there's poverty, ignorance and injustice.
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在那些贫穷、愚昧和不公正的地方
11:16
We, as I've said, have got to hit that market,
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正如我说过的，我们应该打击那个市场
11:20
but we've got to use our heads rather than our might.
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但是我们应该运用我们的头脑而不是气力
11:23
If we perceive it in this way as a brand, or other ways of thinking at it like this,
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若我们将之看做品牌，或以其他类似的方式看待
11:27
we will not resolve or counter terrorism.
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我们将不会严厉打击恐怖主义而造成完全对峙
11:32
What I'd like to do is just briefly go through a few examples
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我要简单回顾一些例子
11:35
from my work on areas where we try and approach these things differently.
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这些例子都来自我的工作领域，我们试图用不一样的方式处理问题
11:40
The first one has been dubbed "lawfare,"
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第一个例子被叫做“法律费”
11:44
for want of a better word.
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是想使用一个更好的词
11:47
When we originally looked at bringing civil actions against terrorists,
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当我们最初对恐怖分子采取民事诉讼时
11:51
everyone thought we were a bit mad and mavericks
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每个人都认为我们疯了或者误入歧途了
11:53
and crackpots. Now it's got a title. Everyone's doing it.
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现在师出有名，大家都在这么做
11:57
There's a bomb, people start suing.
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哪有炸弹，人们就会控诉
11:59
But one of the first early cases on this was the Omagh Bombing.
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但是其中最早的例子是奥马炸弹事件
12:02
A civil action was brought from 1998.
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从1998年民事诉讼被引进
12:06
In Omagh, bomb went off, Real IRA,
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在奥马，炸弹被引爆， 真爱尔兰共和军
12:09
middle of a peace process.
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处于和谈过程中
12:12
That meant that the culprits couldn't really be prosecuted
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这意味着罪犯不可能真的被起诉
12:16
for lots of reasons, mostly to do with the peace process
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因为一系列原因，大部分与和平进程
12:19
and what was going on, the greater good.
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和正在发生的事有关，为了更大的利益
12:21
It also meant, then, if you can imagine this,
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这也意味着，如果你能想象
12:24
that the people who bombed your children
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那个炸死你孩子
12:26
and your husbands were walking around the supermarket
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和丈夫的人正在逛商场
12:31
that you lived in.
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而你就住在里面
12:33
Some of those victims said enough is enough.
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其中一些受害者说够了够了
12:37
We brought a private action, and thank God, 10 years later,
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谢天谢地，在10年后我们引入了私人诉讼，
12:40
we actually won it. There is a slight appeal on
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实际上我们也赢了，目前也有些不起眼的呼吁
12:43
at the moment so I have to be a bit careful,
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所以我要特别小心谨慎
12:45
but I'm fairly confident.
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但也相当自信
12:47
Why was it effective?
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为什么诉讼是有效的？
12:48
It was effective not just because justice was seen to be done
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它有效不仅仅因为正义
12:51
where there was a huge void.
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在那些的法外之地被伸张
12:53
It was because the Real IRA and other terrorist groups,
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也因为真爱尔兰共和军和其他恐怖组织
12:57
their whole strength is from the fact that they are
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他们所有的力量都来自于他们是弱势群体这个事实
12:59
an underdog. When we put the victims as the underdog
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当我们把恐怖袭击的受害者作为弱势群体
13:04
and flipped it, they didn't know what to do.
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轻轻掷出这张牌，他们就不知所措了
13:07
They were embarrassed. Their recruitment went down.
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他们很尴尬，继而就招不到人
13:12
The bombs actually stopped -- fact -- because of this action.
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而且因为这些措施，恐怖袭击事实上也停止了
13:16
We became, or those victims became, more importantly,
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我们，或者说这些受害者
13:20
a ghost that haunted the terrorist organization.
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成了这些恐怖组织无法摆脱的冤魂
13:24
There's other examples. We have a case called Almog
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再举另外一个我们称之为阿尔莫哥的案例
13:26
which is to do with a bank that was,
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有一家银行
13:31
allegedly, from our point of view,
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从我们的角度来看
13:34
giving rewards to suicide bombers.
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据称为那些自杀式炸弹袭击者提供奖励
13:38
Just by bringing the very action,
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只是揭发了这项行为
13:41
that bank has stopped doing it, and indeed,
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那家银行就已不再继续
13:43
the powers that be around the world, which for real politic
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这种力量在全球确实存在，而之前由于一些纯粹的政治原因，
13:45
reasons before, couldn't actually deal with this issue,
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我们无法真正切实地解决问题
13:49
because there was lots of competing interests,
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由于其中有太多的利益纷争
13:50
have actually closed down those loopholes in the banking system.
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事实上已经在堵住了银行系统的这个漏洞
13:53
There's another case called the McDonald case,
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有另一个叫麦克唐纳的案例
13:56
where some victims of Semtex, of the Provisional IRA bombings,
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在塞姆汀塑胶炸药，爱尔兰共和军的临时炸药的受害者中，
14:00
which were supplied by Gaddafi, sued,
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它是由卡扎菲提供的
14:07
and that action has led to amazing things for new Libya.
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那些行动导致新利比亚发生了令人震惊的事
14:12
New Libya has been compassionate towards those victims,
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新利比亚现在很同情这些受害者
14:15
and started taking it -- so it started a whole new dialogue there.
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也开始接受他们，所以这开启了新的对话
14:18
But the problem is, we need more and more support
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但是问题是，我们需要更多地去支持
14:23
for these ideas and cases.
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这些想法和案例
14:26
Civil affairs and civil society initiatives.
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民族事务和国内社会动议
14:30
A good one is in Somalia. There's a war on piracy.
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一个好例子是索马里对海盗的战争
14:33
If anyone thinks you can have a war on piracy
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如果有人认为能向海盗宣战
14:34
like a war on terrorism and beat it, you're wrong.
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就像向恐怖主义宣战并夺取胜利那样，你就错了
14:37
What we're trying to do there is turn pirates to fisherman.
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我们想做的是把海盗变成渔民
14:40
They used to be fisherman, of course,
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当然，他们曾经都是渔民
14:42
but we stole their fish and dumped a load of toxic waste
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但是我们偷走了他们的鱼，还向海里倾倒了大量有毒废料
14:45
in their water, so what we're trying to do is create
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所以我们现在尝试去创造安全环境和就业机会
14:49
security and employment by bringing a coastguard
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方式是通过海岸警卫队来配合渔业
14:51
along with the fisheries industry, and I can guarantee you,
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我可以向你们保证
14:54
as that builds, al Shabaab and such likes will not have
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如果上述系统能够建立成功，青年党这类的组织
14:57
the poverty and injustice any longer to prey on those people.
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就不再能够招罗那些穷人和饱受不公待遇的人
15:01
These initiatives cost less than a missile,
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这些方案的成本比发射一个导弹要低
15:05
and certainly less than any soldier's life,
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代价也远远不像士兵的生命那样高昂
15:08
but more importantly, it takes the war to their homelands,
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更重要的是，这样战争就能滚回自己的老家
15:11
and not onto our shore,
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而不是发生在我们的海岸
15:13
and we're looking at the causes.
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我们正在了解其中的原因
15:15
The last one I wanted to talk about was dialogue.
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最后我想谈的是对话
15:18
The advantages of dialogue are obvious.
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对话的好处是明显的
15:21
It self-educates both sides, enables a better understanding,
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对话对双方来说都是自我教育，使互相之间产生更好的理解
15:25
reveals the strengths and weaknesses,
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揭示优势和劣势
15:27
and yes, like some of the speakers before,
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当然，就像之前的一些讲者提及的
15:30
the shared vulnerability does lead to trust, and
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共同的脆弱能带来信任
15:34
it does then become, that process, part of normalization.
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这个过程之后就能演变成常态
15:37
But it's not an easy road. After the bomb,
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但这并不容易，在爆炸事件之后
15:41
the victims are not into this.
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受害者并不热衷于参与抗议
15:45
There's practical problems.
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这里有一些实际问题
15:46
It's politically risky for the protagonists
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这对主角和对话者来说都具有政治风险
15:49
and for the interlocutors. On one occasion
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某一次我正亲身实践
15:52
I was doing it, every time I did a point that they didn't like,
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当我做的事是他们不喜欢的
15:55
they actually threw stones at me,
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他们就猛烈攻击我
15:56
and when I did a point they liked,
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而当我做的事是他们喜欢的
15:58
they starting shooting in the air, equally not great. (Laughter)
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他们就朝天开枪，同样也不好（笑声）
16:03
Whatever the point, it gets to the heart of the problem,
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无论做到哪一步，接触到问题的核心
16:06
you're doing it, you're talking to them.
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你正在努力，你在和他们对话
16:08
Now, I just want to end with saying, if we follow reason,
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现在我即将结束演讲，如果我们去寻找原因
16:12
we realize that I think we'd all say that we want to
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我们意识到我们要
16:17
have a perception of terrorism which is not just a pure
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对恐怖主义有新的认知
16:20
military perception of it.
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它不仅仅是一个军事问题
16:24
We need to foster more
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我们需要发展更多
16:26
modern and asymmetrical responses to it.
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现代和非对称的方式去回应
16:29
This isn't about being soft on terrorism.
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这并不是对恐怖主义软弱
16:32
It's about fighting them on contemporary battlefields.
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这是在当代的战场上和他们斗争
16:35
We must foster innovation, as I've said.
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正如我说的，我们必须鼓励创新
16:38
Governments are receptive. It won't come from those dusty corridors.
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政府会接受的，它并不来自肮脏的角落
16:42
The private sector has a role.
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私人部门也有自己的作用
16:44
The role we could do right now is going away
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我们所起的作用就是现在不要走开
16:47
and looking at how we can support victims around the world
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然后看看我们能如何帮助那些世界范围内的受害者
16:51
to bring initiatives.
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更加主动地去（帮助他们）
16:52
If I was to leave you with some big questions here which
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如果我打算留给你们一些重要的问题
16:55
may change one's perception to it, and who knows what
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这问题会改变一个人的看法，谁知道
16:58
thoughts and responses will come out of it,
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会有什么想法和应对措施会被提出
17:01
but did myself and my terrorist group actually need
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但是我自己和我的恐怖分子小组实际上需要
17:05
to blow you up to make our point?
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把你们炸飞以达到我们的目的吗？
17:08
We have to ask ourselves these questions, however unpalatable.
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我们需要问我们自己这些问题，虽然这会不好受
17:12
Have we been ignoring an injustice or a humanitarian
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我们是不是忽略了不公正
17:16
struggle somewhere in the world?
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或是世界某处的人道主义斗争？
17:18
What if, actually, engagement on poverty and injustice
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如果，对贫困和不公正的关注
17:21
is exactly what the terrorists wanted us to do?
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正是恐怖分子想让我们做的？
17:23
What if the bombs are just simply wake-up calls for us?
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如果炸弹只是想把我们叫醒？
17:26
What happens if that bomb went off
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如果炸弹爆炸了又怎样？
17:30
because we didn't have any thoughts and things in place
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因为我们没有想法，也没有措施
17:33
to allow dialogue to deal with these things and interaction?
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来用对话和互动去应对（贫穷和不公正）
17:38
What is definitely uncontroversial
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毫无疑问的是
17:41
is that, as I've said, we've got to stop being reactive,
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正如我说过的，我们应当停止单纯的回击
17:43
and more proactive, and I just want to leave you
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而应更具主动性
17:46
with one idea, which is that
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我想让你们记住一个观点
17:50
it's a provocative question for you to think about,
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对你们来说，这是个挑战性的问题
17:53
and the answer will require sympathy with the devil.
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答案需要我们对魔鬼也抱有同情
17:57
It's a question that's been tackled by many great thinkers
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这是个许多伟大的思想家和作家都苦苦思索过的问题
18:00
and writers: What if society actually needs crisis to change?
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社会是否真的需要大难临头才能改变？
18:05
What if society actually needs terrorism
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社会是否真的需要恐怖主义
18:09
to change and adapt for the better?
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才能变得更好？
18:10
It's those Bulgakov themes, it's that picture of Jesus
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这是布尔加科夫的主题
18:15
and the Devil hand in hand in Gethsemane
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这是耶稣和魔鬼在客西马尼（蒙难地）的月光下
18:18
walking into the moonlight.
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携手前行的景象
18:20
What it would mean is that humans,
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这就意味着
18:23
in order to survive in development,
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人类为了在发展中生存
18:26
quite Darwinian spirit here,
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体现了达尔文的精神
18:28
inherently must dance with the devil.
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生来就必须与魔鬼共舞
18:32
A lot of people say that communism was defeated
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许多人说共产主义被滚石乐队打败了
18:37
by the Rolling Stones. It's a good theory.
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这真是个好的理论
18:41
Maybe the Rolling Stones has a place in this.
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也许滚石（在反击恐怖主义方面）也有一席之地
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Thank you.
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谢谢
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(Music) (Applause)
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（音乐）（掌声）
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Bruno Giussani: Thank you. (Applause)
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布鲁诺.邱桑尼：谢谢（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jason McCue - LawyerJason McCue litigates against terrorists, dictators and others who seem above the law, using the legal and judicial system in innovative ways.
Why you should listen
Jason McCue uses the legal system of the UK (and increasingly the world) to fight for human rights. In 2009, he won a landmark civil case at the high court in Belfast that resulted in a settlement for victims of the 1998 Omagh bombing by the Real IRA -- after attempts to prosecute the group in criminal courts had failed. It was a bold legal strategy now being copied for other victims, such as those of Libyan-supported terrorism and of the attacks in London and Mumbai. In September 2011 he and his firm launched another strategy for prosecuting Alexander Lukashenko, the dictator of Belarus, on counts of torture and hostage-taking: creating a "prosecution kit" to be sent to courts around the world. Wherever Lukashenko travels, he now faces the prospect of prosecution.
McCue is also a partner, with his wife, TV star Mariella Frostrup, of the GREAT Initiative: the Gender Rights and Equality Action Trust.
Jason McCue | Speaker | TED.com