TEDGlobal 2011
Cynthia Kenyon: Experiments that hint of longer lives
辛希亞‧凱尼恩: 為延長壽命提供線索的實驗
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是什麼在控制衰老? 生化學家辛希亞∙凱尼恩發現了一種簡單的基因變異，可以讓構造簡單的秀麗線蟲(C. elegans)延長一倍的壽命。.這項研究和其它發現，可能表示未來人類真能青春長在。
Cynthia Kenyon - Biochemist, geneticist
When it comes to aging well, having “good genes” (or rather, mutant ones) is key, says Cynthia Kenyon. She unlocked the genetic secret of longevity in roundworms — and now she’s working to do the same for humans. Full bio
When it comes to aging well, having “good genes” (or rather, mutant ones) is key, says Cynthia Kenyon. She unlocked the genetic secret of longevity in roundworms — and now she’s working to do the same for humans. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
Have you ever wanted to stay young a little longer
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在座諸位是否曾想過要延長自己的青春
00:18
and put off aging?
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延緩衰老?
00:20
This is a dream of the ages.
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這是長久以來的夢想
00:23
But scientists have for a long time
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但科學家長期以來
00:25
thought this just was never going to be possible.
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都認為這個夢想永遠都不會實現
00:27
They thought you just wear out, there's nothing you can do about it --
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人一定都會老嘛 這是無法改變的事情
00:30
kind of like an old shoe.
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就像一隻舊鞋
00:32
But if you look in nature,
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但如果你觀察大自然
00:34
you see that different kinds of animals
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會發現不同的動物
00:36
can have really different lifespans.
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壽命長短大不相同
00:38
Now these animals are different from one another,
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這些動物之所以不同
00:40
because they have different genes.
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是因為牠們的基因不同
00:42
So that suggests
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可想而知
00:44
that somewhere in these genes, somewhere in the DNA,
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在這些基因的某處 DNA的某處
00:46
are genes for aging,
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存在著導致衰老的基因
00:48
genes that allow them to have different lifespans.
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讓不同的動物有不同的壽命
00:50
So if there are genes like that,
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如果這些基因真的存在
00:52
then you can imagine that,
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想像一下
00:54
if you could change one of the genes in an experiment,
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如果你在實驗中改變其中一個基因
00:56
an aging gene,
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一個導致衰老的基因
00:58
maybe you could slow down aging and extend lifespan.
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就有可能延緩衰老 延長壽命
01:01
And if you could do that, then you could find the genes for aging.
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如果你能這麼做 就可以找到導致衰老的基因
01:04
And if they exist and you can find them,
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如果真有這種基因而且又被你找到
01:06
then maybe one could eventually do something about it.
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也許我們就可以藉此大有一番作為
01:09
So we've set out to look for genes that control aging.
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因此我們準備尋找可以控制衰老的基因
01:12
And we didn't study any of these animals.
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我們沒有研究其它動物
01:15
Instead, we studied a little, tiny, round worm called C. elegans,
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反而研究了又細又小 身體圓圓的秀麗線蟲
01:18
which is just about the size of a comma in a sentence.
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牠的尺寸大約只有句子裡的逗點那麼大
01:21
And we were really optimistic that we could find something
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我們非常樂觀地認為可以有新發現
01:24
because there had been a report of a long-lived mutant.
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因為已經有一篇報告紀錄了長壽的突變體
01:27
So we started to change genes at random,
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我們開始隨意地改變基因
01:29
looking for long-lived animals.
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尋找長壽的動物
01:31
And we were very lucky to find
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而且非常幸運地發現
01:33
that mutations that damage one single gene called daf-2
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如果一個名叫daf-2的基因在突變時被破壞
01:37
doubled the lifespan of the little worm.
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小蟲的壽命就可以延長一倍
01:40
So you can see in black, after a month --
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請各位看黑線 一個月後─
01:42
they're very short-lived; that's why we like to study them
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這種蟲的壽命很短 所以適合拿來做研究
01:44
for studies of aging --
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研究老化現象─
01:46
in black, after a month, the normal worms are all dead.
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黑線顯示 一個月後 一般的蟲都死了
01:49
But at that time,
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但與此同時
01:51
most of the mutant worms are still alive.
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大部分的突變蟲仍然還活著
01:53
And it isn't until twice as long
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而且會活多一倍的時間
01:55
that they're all dead.
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才死去
01:57
And now I want to show what they actually look like in this movie here.
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現在我想用這支影片 讓各位看看牠們的廬山真面目
02:00
So the first thing you're going to see
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首先你會看見
02:02
is the normal worm
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正常的蟲子
02:04
when it's about college student age -- a young adult.
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相當於大學生的年紀 剛成年的年輕人
02:07
It's quite a cute little fellow.
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牠還蠻可愛的吧
02:10
And next you're going to see the long-lived mutant when it's young.
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然後是年輕時期的長壽突變蟲
02:13
So this animal is going to live twice as long.
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這種蟲的壽命多一倍
02:15
Is it miserable? It doesn't seem to be.
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牠會精神不振嗎？沒有喔
02:17
It's active. You can't tell the difference really.
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牠很活潑 其實你看不出差別
02:20
And they can be completely fertile --
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牠們完全有生育能力
02:22
have the same number of progeny as the normal worms do.
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和正常小蟲有相同數量的後代
02:24
Now get out your handkerchiefs here.
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現在把手帕準備好
02:26
You're going to see, in just two weeks,
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你會看到 兩個星期後
02:28
the normal worms are old.
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正常的小蟲變老了
02:30
You can see the little head moving down at the bottom there.
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可以看到頭在下方移動
02:33
But everything else is just lying there.
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但其它的部份都沒有生氣
02:35
The animal's clearly in the nursing home.
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顯然已經住進療養院了
02:37
And if you look at the tissues of the animal, they're starting to deteriorate.
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如果你觀察牠的組織 會發現組織已經開始退化
02:40
You know, even if you've never seen one of these little C. elegans --
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即使你沒看過秀麗線蟲這種小生物
02:42
which probably most of you haven't seen one --
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你們大部分應該都沒看過
02:44
you can tell they're old -- isn't that interesting?
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但還是看得出來牠們老了─很有趣對不對？
02:47
So there's something about aging that's kind of universal.
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所以衰老的某些特徵其實是所有生物共通的
02:50
And now here is the daf-2 mutant.
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看看有daf-2突變的蟲
02:53
One gene is changed out of 20,000, and look at it.
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兩萬個基因中只改變這個基因 你看看
02:55
It's the same age, but it's not in the nursing home;
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同樣的年紀 但沒有住在療養院裡
02:58
it's going skiing.
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牠在滑雪
03:01
This is what's really cool: it's aging more slowly.
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很酷對吧 牠衰老得比較慢
03:04
It takes this worm two days
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這隻蟲要兩天的時間
03:06
to age as much as the normal worm ages in one day.
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來完成一般蠕蟲一天內衰老的程度
03:08
And when I tell people about this,
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當我跟別人說這件事的時候
03:10
they tend to think of maybe an 80 or 90 year-old person
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他們通常想到的是80或90歲的人
03:14
who looks really good for being 90 or 80.
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不過是看起來狀況極佳的90或80歲
03:16
But it's really more like this:
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但其實更準確地講
03:18
let's say you're a 30 year-old guy -- or in your 30s --
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比如說你是30歲的男性 30幾歲
03:21
and you're a bachelor and you're dating people.
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單身貴族 約會不斷
03:23
And you meet someone you really like, you get to know her.
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你遇見你喜歡的對象 想多認識對方
03:26
And you're in a restaurant, and you say, "Well how old are you?"
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所以在餐廳裡 你問她：「你今年幾歲？」
03:29
She says, "I'm 60."
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她說：「我60歲」
03:31
That's what it's like. And you would never know.
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就是這種情況 你根本看不出來
03:33
You would never know, until she told you.
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你絕對不會知道 除非她告訴你
03:35
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
03:39
Okay.
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好吧
03:41
So what is the daf-2 gene?
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daf-2基因到底是什麼呢?
03:43
Well as you know, genes, which are part of the DNA,
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各位應該都知道 基因是DNA的一部分
03:45
they're instructions to make a protein that does something.
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告訴蛋白質應該做什麼
03:48
And the daf-2 gene
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而這個daf-2基因
03:50
encodes a hormone receptor.
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控制荷爾蒙接收器
03:52
So what you see in the picture there
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這張圖片上你可以看到
03:54
is a cell with a hormone receptor in red
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一個細胞 紅色的是荷爾蒙接收器
03:56
punching through the edge of the cell.
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正穿過細胞的邊緣
03:58
So part of it is like a baseball glove.
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它有一部分像棒球手套一樣
04:00
Part of it's on the outside,
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這一部分在外面
04:02
and it's catching the hormone as it comes by in green.
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抓住經過的荷爾蒙 就是綠色的部分
04:04
And the other part is on the inside
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另一部份在裡面
04:06
where it sends signals into the cell.
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向細胞發送信號
04:08
Okay, so what is the daf-2 receptor
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daf-2接收器
04:10
telling the inside of the cell?
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到底在向細胞內部發送什麼信號呢?
04:12
I just told you that, if you make a mutation in the daf-2 gene cell,
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我剛剛說 如果你讓daf-2基因細胞產生突變
04:15
that you get a receptor that doesn't work as well;
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讓接收器失效
04:17
the animal lives longer.
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這隻蟲就可以活比較久
04:19
So that means that the normal function of this hormone receptor
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表示這種荷爾蒙接收器的正常功能
04:22
is to speed up aging.
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就是加速老化
04:24
That's what that arrow means.
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箭頭就是這個意思
04:26
It speeds up aging. It makes it go faster.
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它會加速老化 讓老化更快發生
04:28
So it's like the animal has the grim reaper inside of itself,
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就好像蟲子體內有個死神一樣
04:30
speeding up aging.
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加快老化
04:32
So this is altogether really, really interesting.
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所以這一切非常 非常有趣
04:35
It says that aging is subject to control by the genes,
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表示老化是由基因控制
04:38
and specifically by hormones.
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更精確一點是荷爾蒙
04:41
So what kind of hormones are these?
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那這是哪一類的荷爾蒙呢？
04:43
There's lots of hormones. There's testosterone, adrenalin.
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荷爾蒙有很多種 睪丸激素 腎上腺素
04:45
You know about a lot of them.
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還有很多大家都熟知的
04:47
These hormones are similar
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控制老化的荷爾蒙
04:49
to hormones that we have in our bodies.
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和我們體內的荷爾蒙很相似
04:51
The daf-2 hormone receptor
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daf-2荷爾蒙接收器
04:53
is very similar to the receptor
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跟其它接收器很像
04:55
for the hormone insulin and IGF-1.
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尤其是專門感應胰島素和IGF-1的接收器
04:58
Now you've all heard of at least insulin.
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大家應該至少都聽過胰島素
05:00
Insulin is a hormone that promotes the uptake of nutrients
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這種荷爾蒙是促進養分吸收的
05:03
into your tissues after you eat a meal.
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吃完飯後 身體組織就可以吸收養分
05:05
And the hormone IGF-1 promotes growth.
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IGF-1促進生長
05:08
So these functions were known for these hormones for a long time,
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這些荷爾蒙的功能是大家長久以來耳熟能詳的
05:11
but our studies suggested
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但是我們的研究指出
05:13
that maybe they had a third function that nobody knew about --
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也許還有不為人知道的第三種功能
05:15
maybe they also affect aging.
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會影響老化
05:17
And it's looking like that's the case.
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我們現在面對的似乎就是這種可能性
05:19
So after we made our discoveries with little C. elegans,
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從小線蟲身上有了新發現後
05:22
people who worked on other kinds of animals
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研究其他動物的科學家
05:24
started asking, if we made the same daf-2 mutation,
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開始思考 如果讓相同的daf-2突變
05:27
the hormone receptor mutation, in other animals,
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就是荷爾蒙接收器突變 也在其他動物身上發生
05:30
will they live longer?
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其他動物也會更長壽嗎？
05:32
And that is the case in flies.
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蒼蠅的確如此
05:34
If you change this hormone pathway in flies, they live longer.
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如果改變荷爾蒙接收的路徑 蒼蠅可以活更久
05:37
And also in mice -- and mice are mammals like us.
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老鼠也是 而老鼠跟人一樣是哺乳類
05:40
So it's an ancient pathway,
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所以接收路徑想必十分古老
05:42
because it must have arisen a long time ago in evolution
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因為一定是在演化早期就發展出來的機制
05:44
such that it still works in all these animals.
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才會在所有動物身上都有效
05:47
And also, the common precursor also gave rise to people.
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同樣地 人類也是由相同的祖先演化而來
05:50
So maybe it's working in people the same way.
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所以也許對人類也有效
05:52
And there are hints of this.
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我們也的確看到這種跡象
05:54
So for example, there was one study that was done
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例如 某項研究的對象
05:56
in a population of Ashkenazi Jews in New York City.
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是紐約市的阿胥肯納吉猶太人族群
05:59
And just like any population,
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就跟其他人口族群一樣
06:01
most of the people live to be about 70 or 80,
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大部分人可以活到70或80歲
06:04
but some live to be 90 or 100.
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但有些可以活到90或100歲
06:06
And what they found
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學者發現
06:08
was that people who lived to 90 or 100
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那些活到90或100歲的人
06:11
were more likely to have daf-2 mutations --
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比較可能有daf-2的突變
06:14
that is, changes in the gene
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就是說 基因發生改變
06:16
that encodes the receptor for IGF-1.
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造成接收IGF-1的不同
06:18
And these changes made the gene not act as well
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這些改變使基因不產生作用
06:23
as the normal gene would have acted.
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不像一般正常的基因
06:25
It damaged the gene.
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它們破壞了基因
06:27
So those are hints
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這些暗示
06:29
suggesting that humans are susceptible
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表示人類也可能受到影響
06:31
to the effects of the hormones for aging.
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控制老化的荷爾蒙對人類也有效
06:33
So the next question, of course, is:
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因此更進一步的問題 當然就是
06:35
Is there any effect on age-related disease?
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它對於與年齡相關的疾病有沒有效用？
06:38
As you age, you're much more likely
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當我們逐漸老化 會更有可能得到
06:40
to get cancer, Alzheimer's disease,
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癌症 阿茲海默症
06:42
heart disease, all sorts of diseases.
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心臟疾病 或其他各種疾病
06:44
It turns out that these long-lived mutants
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我們發現長壽的突變種
06:46
are more resistant to all these diseases.
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更有能力對抗這些疾病
06:48
They hardly get cancer,
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牠們很少得癌症
06:50
and when they do it's not as severe.
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即使得了也比較不嚴重
06:52
So it's really interesting, and it makes sense in a way,
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這是很有趣的現象 其實也很有道理
06:54
that they're still young,
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因為牠們還很年輕
06:56
so why would they be getting diseases of aging until their old?
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所以當然不會有各種老化的病症
07:00
So it suggests
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這也表示
07:02
that, if we could have a therapeutic or a pill to take
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如果有某種療法或藥物
07:05
to replicate some of these effects in humans,
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可以複製這些效果到人體上
07:07
maybe we would have a way
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也許就有辦法
07:09
of combating lots of different age-related diseases
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對抗許多與年齡有關的各種疾病
07:11
all at once.
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一勞永逸
07:13
So how can a hormone ultimately affect the rate of aging?
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那麼 荷爾蒙到底怎麼影響老化的速度呢？
07:15
How could that work?
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它是如何運作的？
07:17
Well it turns out that in the daf-2 mutants,
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我們發現在daf-2突變種生物中
07:20
a whole lot of genes are switched on in the DNA
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某個DNA上的許多基因都在運作
07:23
that encode proteins that protect the cells and the tissues,
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這個DNA負責控制蛋白質 保護細胞和組織
07:26
and repair damage.
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修復損傷
07:28
And the way that they're switched on
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這些基因的運作
07:31
is by a gene regulator protein called FOXO.
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是由控制基因的蛋白質FOXO掌管
07:34
So in a daf-2 mutant --
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因此在daf-2突變種中─
07:36
you see that I have the X drawn here through the receptor.
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這裡可以看到接收器上面打了個叉
07:38
The receptor isn't working as well.
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接收器沒有作用
07:40
Under those conditions, the FOXO protein in blue
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在這種環境中 FOXO蛋白質 就是藍色的部分
07:43
has gone into the nucleus --
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進入了細胞核
07:45
that little compartment there in the middle of the cell --
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就是細胞中心的小空間
07:47
and it's sitting down on a gene binding to it.
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它留在這裡 帶著一個基因
07:49
You see one gene. There are lots of genes actually that bind on FOXO.
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你只看到一個 其實FOXO上帶著很多基因
07:51
And it's just sitting on one of them.
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它只留了一個
07:53
So FOXO turns on a lot of genes.
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FOXO啟動許多基因的功能
07:55
And the genes it turns on includes antioxidant genes,
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包括抗氧化的基因
07:58
genes I call carrot-giver genes,
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還有我稱為「成人之美」的基因
08:00
whose protein products
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它的蛋白質產出物
08:02
actually help other proteins to function well --
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可以幫助其他蛋白質維持良好運作
08:04
to fold correctly and function correctly.
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正確疊合 正常運作
08:06
And it can also escort them to the garbage cans of the cell
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還可以確保其他蛋白質廢棄後在細胞中被處理掉
08:09
and recycle them if they're damaged.
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或在蛋白質受損時進行回收
08:11
DNA repair genes
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修復DNA的基因
08:13
are more active in these animals.
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在這些動物體內比較活躍
08:15
And the immune system is more active.
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免疫系統也比較活躍
08:17
And many of these different genes, we've shown,
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許多這些不同的基因 已經證實
08:20
actually contribute to the long lifespan of the daf-2 mutant.
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確實造成daf-2變種生物較長的壽命
08:23
So it's really interesting.
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這是非常有趣的發現
08:25
These animals have within them
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這些動物體內
08:27
the latent capacity to live much longer than they normally do.
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潛藏著可以活更久的能力
08:30
They have the ability
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牠們有能力
08:32
to protect themselves from many kinds of damage,
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保護自己免於各種傷害
08:34
which we think makes them live longer.
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我們認為這是牠們長壽的原因
08:37
So what about the normal worm?
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那一般正常的蟲子呢？
08:39
Well when the daf-2 receptor is active,
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當daf-2接收器啟動時
08:42
then it triggers a series of events
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會觸發一連串反應
08:44
that prevent FOXO
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防止FOXO
08:46
from getting into the nucleus where the DNA is.
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進入細胞核 也就是DNA所在的位置
08:49
So it can't turn the genes on.
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因此基因不會被啟動
08:51
That's how it works. That's why we don't see the long lifespan,
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這就是它運作的方法 也因此如果要長壽
08:53
until we have the daf-2 mutant.
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一定要有daf-2的變異
08:55
But what good is this for the worm?
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但這對蟲子有什麼好處？
08:57
Well we think that insulin and IGF-1 hormones
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如果我們回頭看看胰島素和IGF-1激素
09:00
are hormones that are particularly active
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這兩種特別活躍的荷爾蒙
09:02
under favorable conditions -- in the good times --
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在有利的條件下 良好的情況中
09:04
when food is plentiful and there's not a lot of stress in the environment.
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如果食物充足 環境中又沒有太大的壓力時
09:07
Then they promote the uptake of nutrients.
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它們會促進養分的吸收
09:09
You can store the food, use it for energy,
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儲存食物 轉換成能量
09:12
grow, etc.
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幫助生長 等等
09:14
But what we think is that, under conditions of stress,
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但我們考慮的是 如果受到壓力影響
09:17
the levels of these hormones drop --
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荷爾蒙濃度下降
09:19
for example, having limited food supply.
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例如 食物來源不足
09:22
And that, we think,
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這種情形 我們認為
09:24
is registered by the animal as a danger signal,
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動物本能地就會將之視為警訊
09:26
a signal that things are not okay
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提醒牠們情況不對勁
09:28
and that it should roll out its protective capacity.
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牠應該施展自我保護的能力
09:31
So it activates FOXO, FOXO goes to the DNA,
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因此FOXO開始運作 對DNA產生作用
09:34
and that triggers the expression of these genes
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觸發這些基因表現
09:36
that improves the ability of the cell
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改善細胞能力
09:38
to protect itself and repair itself.
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更能自我保護與修復
09:40
And that's why we think the animals live longer.
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我們認為 動物因此能活更久
09:42
So you can think of FOXO
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所以 你可以把FOXO
09:44
as being like a building superintendent.
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當成大樓的管理員
09:47
So maybe he's a little bit lazy,
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也許這位管理員有點懶惰
09:49
but he's there, he's taking care of the building.
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不過他人在大樓裡 有在管事
09:51
But it's deteriorating.
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大樓慢慢老舊
09:53
And then suddenly, he learns that there's going to be a hurricane.
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然後突然 管理員得知有颶風要來
09:56
So he doesn't actually do anything himself.
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他自己實際上什麼都不做
09:58
He gets on the telephone --
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而是拿起電話
10:00
just like FOXO gets on the DNA --
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就像FOXO刺激DNA一樣
10:02
and he calls up
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然後打電話
10:04
the roofer, the window person,
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叫修屋頂 修窗戶的工人
10:06
the painter, the floor person.
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油漆工 地板工
10:09
And they all come and they fortify the house.
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通通都過來 強化大樓
10:11
And then the hurricane comes through,
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之後颶風過境
10:13
and the house is in much better condition than it would normally have been in.
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不過大樓的狀況比平時改善許多
10:15
And not only that, it can also just last longer,
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不只如此 它還可以維持更久
10:18
even if there isn't a hurricane.
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有沒有颶風都一樣
10:20
So that's the concept here
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我要說明的概念就是如此
10:22
for how we think this life extension ability exists.
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所謂延長壽命的能力就是這樣
10:26
Now the really cool thing about FOXO
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FOXO了不起的地方
10:28
is that there are different forms of it.
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是它有各種不同的型態
10:30
We all have FOXO genes,
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我們都有FOXO的基因
10:33
but we don't all have exactly the same form of the FOXO gene.
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但是型態並不完全一樣
10:36
Just like we all have eyes,
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就像我們都有眼睛
10:38
but some of us have blue eyes and some of us have brown eyes.
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但有些人的眼睛是藍色的 有些人的眼睛是棕色的
10:41
And there are certain forms of the FOXO gene
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某些形態的FOXO基因
10:44
that have found to be more frequently present
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我們發現 它們最常出現的地方
10:46
in people who live to be 90 or 100.
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是在90或100歲人瑞的體內
10:48
And that's the case all over the world,
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這種狀況 全世界都一樣
10:50
as you can see from these stars.
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這張圖上的星星就足以說明
10:52
And each one of these stars represents a population
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每一顆星代表一個人口族群
10:54
where scientists have asked,
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科學家在這些地方研究：
10:56
"Okay, are there differences in the type of FOXO genes
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「這裡的FOXO基因
10:58
among people who live a really long time?" and there are.
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在長壽人口體內是否都不同？」的確如此
11:01
We don't know the details of how this works,
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我們不清楚這一切運作的細節
11:03
but we do know then
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但我們知道
11:05
that FOXO genes can impact
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FOXO基因可以影響
11:07
the lifespan of people.
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人類的壽命
11:09
And that means that, maybe if we tweak it a little bit,
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這就表示 如果我們善加利用這一點
11:12
we can increase the health and longevity of people.
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就可以改善人類的健康 增加壽命
11:16
So this is really exciting to me.
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這一點讓我非常興奮
11:18
A FOXO is a protein that we found in these little, round worms
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FOXO這種蛋白質 在圓形小蟲子體內找到的
11:20
to affect lifespan,
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會影響壽命
11:22
and here it affects lifespan in people.
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也可以影響人類的壽命
11:24
So we've been trying in our lab now
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所以我們現在在實驗室
11:26
to develop drugs
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試著研發藥物
11:28
that will activate this FOXO cell
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可以刺激FOXO
11:30
using human cells now
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改用人類細胞
11:32
in order to try and come up with drugs
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才能進一步研發藥品
11:34
that will delay aging and age-related diseases.
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延緩老化 和與年齡相關的疾病
11:37
And I'm really optimistic that this is going to work.
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我對於此事能否成功相當樂觀
11:40
There are lots of different proteins that are known to affect aging.
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現在已知有許多不同的蛋白質都會影響老化
11:43
And for at least one of them, there is a drug.
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至少對其中一種 可以用藥物控制
11:46
There's one called TOR, which is another nutrient sensor,
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這種蛋白質叫TOR 也是一種感應養分的蛋白質
11:48
like the insulin pathway.
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類似胰島素路徑
11:50
And mutations that damage the TOR gene --
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如果TOR基因被突變破壞
11:52
just like the daf-2 mutations --
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就會跟daf-2突變體一樣
11:54
extend lifespan in worms
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可以延長蟲子的壽命
11:56
and flies and mice.
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對蒼蠅和老鼠也都有效
11:59
But in this case, there's already a drug called rapamycin
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但是在這種情況 已經有一種叫rapamycin的免疫抑制劑
12:01
that binds to the TOR protein
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會附著在TOR蛋白質上
12:03
and inhibits its activity.
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抑制它的活動
12:05
And you can take rapamycin and give it to a mouse --
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如果你讓老鼠服用這種免疫抑制劑
12:08
even when it's pretty old, like age 60 for a human,
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即使老鼠已經很老 像個60歲的人
12:10
that old for a mouse --
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即使這種年齡的老鼠
12:12
if you give the mouse rapamycin,
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如果服用免疫抑制劑
12:14
it will live longer.
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也會活更久
12:16
Now I don't want you all to go out taking rapamycin.
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不過我並不是叫你們趕快去服用rapamycin
12:18
It is a drug for people,
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它的確是人類使用的藥物
12:20
but the reason is it suppresses the immune system.
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但是它會抑制免疫系統
12:23
So people take it to prevent organ transplants from being rejected.
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因此用來避免接受器官移植的病人產生排斥現象
12:27
So this may not be the perfect drug
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因此它不是靈丹妙藥
12:29
for staying young longer.
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不是青春長駐的最佳選擇
12:31
But still, here in the year 2011,
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但是 現在是2011年
12:34
there's a drug that you can give to mice at a pretty old age
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的確有一種藥 如果給年事已高的老鼠服用
12:36
that will extend their lifespan,
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可以延長牠們的壽命
12:38
which comes out of this science
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在研究中也證實
12:40
that's been done in all these different animals.
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對其他各種不同的動物也有效
12:42
So I'm really optimistic,
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因此我相當樂觀
12:44
and I think it won't be too long, I hope,
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也認為我們的夢想已經近在咫尺
12:46
before this age-old dream begins to come true.
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長久以來青春長在的夢想即將成真
12:49
Thank you.
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謝謝各位
12:51
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
13:00
Matt Ridley: Thank you, Cynthia.
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麥特‧雷德利：謝謝妳 辛西亞
13:03
Let me get this straight.
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讓我澄清一下情況
13:05
Although you're looking for a drug
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你在尋找的這種藥
13:07
that can solve aging
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可以解決老化的問題
13:09
in old men like me,
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對我種老頭子也有效
13:12
what you could do now pretty well in the lab,
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現在你在實驗室中已經可以做到
13:15
if you were allowed ethically,
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當然在不違背道德的前提下
13:17
is start a human life from scratch
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無中生有創造一個人
13:20
with altered genes that would make it live for a lot longer?
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並擁有改變過的基因 讓它可以活更久嗎？
13:23
CK: Ah, so the kinds of drugs I was talking about
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辛西亞：我剛剛說明的那種藥
13:26
would not change the genes,
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不會改變基因
13:28
they would just bind to the protein itself
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只會附著在蛋白質上
13:31
and change its activity.
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改變其功能
13:33
So if you stop taking the drug, the protein would go back to normal.
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所以如果你停止服藥 蛋白質就會恢復成正常的狀態
13:36
You could change the genes in principle.
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你也可以從基因上徹底改變
13:39
There isn't the technology to do that.
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不過現在還沒有這種科技
13:41
But I don't think that's a good idea.
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但是我不覺得這是理想的做法
13:43
And the reason is
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因為
13:45
that these hormones,
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這些荷爾蒙
13:47
like the insulin and the IGF hormones and the TOR pathway,
343
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像是胰島素 IGF 還有TOR路徑
13:50
they're essential.
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是人體不可或缺的
13:52
If you knock them out completely, then you're very sick.
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如果你徹底移除它們 會讓你生重病
13:55
So it might be that you would just have to fine tune it very carefully
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所以還是小心地做細微的調整
13:58
to get the benefits without getting any problems.
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只取其益 免受其害
14:01
And I think that's much better,
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我認為才是比較理想的做法
14:03
that kind of control would be much better as a drug.
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這種控制才是理想的藥物
14:05
And also, there are other ways of activating FOXO
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此外 還有其他方法可以刺激FOXO
14:08
that don't even involve insulin or IGF-1
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完全不涉及胰島素或IGF-1
14:10
that might even be safer.
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是更安全的方法
14:12
MR: I wasn't suggesting that I was going to go and do it, but ...
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麥特：我沒有暗示說我想這麼做 不過...
14:15
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
14:19
There's a phenomenon which you have written about and spoken about,
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有一種現象 你有寫到也有提到
14:23
which is a negligible senescence.
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就是微不足道的老化
14:26
There are some creatures on this planet already
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地球上有一些生物
14:28
that don't really do aging.
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不太會變老
14:31
Just move to one side for us, if you would.
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麻煩靠過來一點 謝謝
14:34
CK: There are. There are some animals that don't seem to age.
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辛西亞：的確 有些動物似乎不會變老
14:37
For example, there are some tortoises called Blanding's turtles.
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例如 有一種陸龜叫流星澤龜
14:41
And they grow to be about this size.
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可以長到這麼大
14:43
And they've been tagged, and they've been found to be 70 years old.
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追蹤的結果 發現牠們可以活到70歲
14:46
And when you look at these 70 year-old turtles,
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當你看著這些70歲的烏龜
14:48
you can't tell the difference, just by looking,
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如果只用看的 根本看不出差別
14:51
between those turtles and 20 year-old turtles.
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牠們跟20歲的烏龜沒有兩樣
14:53
And the 70 year-old ones,
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還有 70歲的烏龜
14:55
actually they're better at scouting out the good nesting places,
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其實更善於找到良好的棲息地點
14:58
and they also have more progeny every year.
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每年也可以產下更多後代
15:01
And there are other examples of these kinds of animals,
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其他還有很多這類動物的例子
15:04
like turns, certain kinds of birds are like this.
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像是燕鷗 或者其他鳥類就像這樣
15:07
And nobody knows if they really can live forever,
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沒有人知道牠們是否可以長生不死
15:09
or what keeps them from aging.
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或為何牠們不會老化
15:11
It's not clear.
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現在還不清楚
15:13
If you look at birds, which live a long time,
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如果你觀察鳥類 長壽的鳥類
15:16
cells from the birds tend to be more resistant
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牠們的細胞通常較具抵抗力
15:19
to a lot of different environmental stresses
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可以應對許多環境壓力
15:21
like high temperature
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例如高溫
15:23
or hydrogen peroxide, things like that.
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或過氧化氫這類的東西
15:25
And our long-lived mutants are too.
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長壽的突變種生物也是這樣
15:27
They're more resistant to these kinds of stresses.
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牠們比較能抵抗這些壓力
15:29
So it could be that the pathways that I've been talking about,
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所以有可能是我剛剛說明的那些路徑
15:32
which are set to run really quickly in the worm,
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在蟲子體內運轉得非常快
15:35
have a different normal set point
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但在不同生物體內速度會不同
15:38
in something like a bird, so that a bird can live a lot longer.
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例如鳥類 因此某隻鳥可以活較久
15:41
And maybe they're even set really differently
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甚至可能這些路徑運轉的速度
15:43
in animals with no senescence at all -- but we don't know.
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在不會老化的動物體內是完全不同的 這一點尚待確認
15:46
MR: But what you're talking about here
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麥特：但是你剛剛說的
15:48
is not extending human lifespan
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不是延長人類的壽命
15:51
by preventing death,
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預防死亡
15:53
so much as extending human youthspan.
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而是延長青春歲月
15:55
CK: Yes, that's right.
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辛西亞：對 就是這樣
15:57
It's more like, say, if you were a dog.
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比較像是 假設你是一隻狗
15:59
You notice that you're getting old, and you look at your human
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注意到自己開始變老了 不過你看看你的主人
16:01
and you think, "Why isn't this human getting old?"
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心裡想：為什麼這個人類不會變老？
16:03
They're not getting old in the dog's lifespan.
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人類不會在狗的有生之年變老
16:05
It's more like that.
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我說的比較像是這種情況
16:07
But now we're the human looking out and imagining a different human.
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但現在我們是以人類的角度 去想像另一種人類
16:11
MR: Thank you very much indeed, Cynthia Kenyon.
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麥特：非常感謝辛西亞‧凱尼恩
16:14
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Cynthia Kenyon - Biochemist, geneticistWhen it comes to aging well, having “good genes” (or rather, mutant ones) is key, says Cynthia Kenyon. She unlocked the genetic secret of longevity in roundworms — and now she’s working to do the same for humans.
Why you should listen
Cynthia Kenyon is revolutionizing our understanding of aging. As an expert in biochemistry and biophysics at the University of California at San Francisco, she is particularly interested in the influence that genetics have on age-related diseases (from cancer to heart failure) in living things.
Her biggest breakthrough was figuring out that there’s a “universal hormonal control for aging”: carbohydrate intake, which can have a dramatic effect on how two critical genes behave, reducing insulin production and boosting repair and renovation activities. So far, her theory has proved true for worms, mice, rats, and monkeys — and she suspects it applies to humans, too.
By studying aging, Kenyon believes that she and other scientists (many of whom have successfully duplicated her experiments) will be able to pinpoint the molecules responsible for the onset of age-related diseases in people and prevent them. She’s co-founded a drug-development company called Elixir Pharmaceuticals to do just that.
She says: "The link between aging and age-related disease suggests an entirely new way to combat many diseases all at once; namely, by going after their greatest risk factor: aging itself."
Cynthia Kenyon | Speaker | TED.com