TEDxLondon
Julia Shaw: A memory scientist's advice on reporting harassment and discrimination
茱莉亞蕭: 一位記憶科學家對於舉報騷擾和歧視的建議
Filmed:
Readability: 4.7
1,624,490 views
你要如何把一段記憶，特別是關於創傷性事件的記憶，轉變成犯罪的有力證據？茱莉亞蕭正致力於解決這個問題，她結合了記憶科學和人工智慧的工具，來改變我們舉報工作場所騷擾和偏見的方式。如果你曾經被騷擾或歧視，她分享了她學到的三件事供參考，並介紹了 Spot：一個免費、暱名的線上舉報工具，讓受害者也有能力為自己做點什麼。
Julia Shaw - Psychological scientist
Julia Shaw is best known for her work in the areas of memory and criminal psychology. Full bio
Julia Shaw is best known for her work in the areas of memory and criminal psychology. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
Me Too and Time's Up have highlighted
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「我也是」和「時間到了」
（性侵和性別運動的名稱）
（性侵和性別運動的名稱）
強調出騷擾和歧視
00:16
that harassment and discrimination
are a shockingly common part
are a shockingly common part
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在許多人的現實生活中
是出乎意料的常見，
是出乎意料的常見，
00:21
of many people's lived reality,
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00:23
and that this reality
extends into the workplace.
extends into the workplace.
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而這個現實也延伸到工作場所。
00:26
Whether in tech or finance,
sports or the service industry,
sports or the service industry,
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不論是在科技業、
金融業、運動，或服務業，
金融業、運動，或服務業，
00:31
every day we seem to hear another story
about an abuse of power
about an abuse of power
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似乎每天我們都會聽到
另一個關於權力濫用的故事，
另一個關於權力濫用的故事，
00:34
or another grossly inappropriate
workplace behavior.
workplace behavior.
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或是在工作場所中發生
不當下流行為的故事。
不當下流行為的故事。
00:38
People are furious.
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大家很憤怒。
00:40
They're taking to Twitter and social media
to voice that this must change.
to voice that this must change.
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他們上推特和社交媒體發聲，
說這個狀況必須要被改變。
說這個狀況必須要被改變。
00:45
But it's time to move beyond the hashtag.
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但，別只是加「＃」，
該是再進一步的時候了。
該是再進一步的時候了。
00:47
It's time for us to report
harassment and discrimination
harassment and discrimination
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該是向那些能解決這團糟的人舉報
騷擾和歧視事件的時候了。
00:51
to those who can fix this mess.
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00:53
And it's time for us
to talk about harassment
to talk about harassment
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該是我們用比較全面的方式
來談論騷擾的時候了：
00:56
in a more inclusive way:
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00:58
not just about sexual harassment,
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不只是談性騷擾，
01:00
but to encourage people to come forward
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還要鼓勵大家站出來，
01:02
about harassment and discrimination
based on other characteristics
based on other characteristics
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說出和其他特性有關的騷擾和歧視，
01:05
such as age, disability or ethnicity.
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比如年齡、殘疾，或人種。
01:09
Because only together can we fix
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因為只有團結起來，我們才能解決
01:11
the underlying causes
and consequences of harassment.
and consequences of harassment.
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騷擾背後的成因以及後果。
01:15
You see, most of us will,
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要知道，大部分的人，
在人生中的某個時點，
在人生中的某個時點，
01:17
at some point in our lives,
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01:18
experience workplace
harassment or discrimination.
harassment or discrimination.
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都會遇到工作場所騷擾或歧視。
01:21
Research shows that particularly
women, people of color
women, people of color
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研究顯示，特別是女性、有色人種，
01:25
and people who openly identify as LGBTQI
are likely to be targeted,
are likely to be targeted,
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及被公開認定是 LGBTQI 的人，
最有可能成為目標，
01:30
and for some people, this is a pervasive
and persistent part of their reality.
and persistent part of their reality.
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對一些人來說，
這是他們現實人生中
很普遍且反覆不斷的一部分。
很普遍且反覆不斷的一部分。
01:34
And for most of these people --
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而這些人當中，絕大多數——
01:36
98 percent according to some studies --
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根據一些研究，是 98% ——
01:39
most of these people will never
speak up and tell their employer.
speak up and tell their employer.
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絕大多數永遠都不會說出來，
不會告訴他們的僱主。
不會告訴他們的僱主。
01:43
Too often, harassment and discrimination
is a lonely and isolating experience,
is a lonely and isolating experience,
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騷擾和歧視太常是一種孤獨
且讓人孤立的經驗了，
且讓人孤立的經驗了，
01:48
but we need to help people
out from under their desks.
out from under their desks.
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但我們得要協助大家從他們
躲藏的桌子底下走出來。
躲藏的桌子底下走出來。
01:51
We need to empower people to have a voice.
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我們需要讓大家能夠發聲。
01:55
The reasonable first question
that everybody asks
that everybody asks
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任何人，一旦被騷擾了，
會問的第一個合理問題就是：
會問的第一個合理問題就是：
01:57
once they've been harassed
is "What do I do now?"
is "What do I do now?"
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「我現在該怎麼辦？」
02:00
And this is what I want to help you with.
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這就是我想要協助各位的地方。
02:03
Navigating the barriers to reporting
can be absolutely dizzying.
can be absolutely dizzying.
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在舉報的阻礙之中找路
是會讓人昏頭轉向的。
是會讓人昏頭轉向的。
02:09
How can we speak up in a society
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在這個太常會將我們的經驗汙名化
02:11
that too often discredits
or diminishes our experiences?
or diminishes our experiences?
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或貶低的社會上，
我們要如何說出來？
我們要如何說出來？
02:14
How can we speak up in a society
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在這個很可能覺得
我們罪有應得的社會上，
我們罪有應得的社會上，
02:17
that is likely to be
retributive towards us?
retributive towards us?
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我們要如何說出來？
02:21
How can we deal with the silencing
that goes on all around us?
that goes on all around us?
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我們要如何處理
我們身邊無所不在的沉默？
我們身邊無所不在的沉默？
02:27
Making matters worse,
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更糟糕的是，
02:29
often our memories are the only
evidence we have of what happened.
evidence we have of what happened.
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通常，對於所發生的事，
我們的記憶是我們的唯一證據。
我們的記憶是我們的唯一證據。
02:34
Now, here's where I can come in.
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這就是我派上用場的地方。
02:36
I'm a memory scientist,
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我是記憶科學家，我的專長是
02:37
and I specialize in how we remember
important emotional events.
important emotional events.
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我們如何記得重要的情緒事件。
02:42
I've particularly focused
on how the memory interview process
on how the memory interview process
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我特別著重在記憶訪談過程
02:45
can severely impact the evidentiary
quality of reports that we produce.
quality of reports that we produce.
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會如何嚴重影響我們舉報的
報告內容的證據品質。
報告內容的證據品質。
02:51
A bad interview can lead you
to forget details or misremember them
to forget details or misremember them
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很差的訪談會讓你
忘掉細節或是記錯細節，
忘掉細節或是記錯細節，
02:55
while a good interview can forever
change your life for the better.
change your life for the better.
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而好的訪談能永遠改變
你的人生，讓它變得更好。
你的人生，讓它變得更好。
02:59
After looking at lab reports
and working,
and working,
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在看了實驗室報告，
並探究了這個議題在法庭上
及研究環境中的狀況後，
及研究環境中的狀況後，
03:03
studying this issue both in the courtroom
and in research settings,
and in research settings,
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03:07
I've dissected all the different things
that can go wrong with our memories
that can go wrong with our memories
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我徹底剖析了我們記憶中
可能會出錯的各種事物，
可能會出錯的各種事物，
03:12
that can really threaten your case.
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可能會威脅到
你的案件的各種事物。
你的案件的各種事物。
03:14
And now I'm turning my attention
to helping people tackle
to helping people tackle
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現在，我把我的注意力
轉到協助人們處理
轉到協助人們處理
03:17
recording and reporting of workplace
harassment and discrimination.
harassment and discrimination.
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工作場所騷擾和歧視
事件的記錄和舉報。
事件的記錄和舉報。
03:22
There's three things that I've learned
from my research on this
from my research on this
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從我對這個議題做的研究中，
我學到三件事，
我學到三件事，
03:25
that you can immediately apply
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各位可以立刻拿來應用，
03:26
if you've been harassed
or discriminated against at work.
or discriminated against at work.
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如果你曾經在工作時
被騷擾或歧視過。
被騷擾或歧視過。
03:30
I want to help you
turn your memory into evidence --
turn your memory into evidence --
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我想要協助你們，
將你們的記憶轉為證據——
將你們的記憶轉為證據——
03:34
evidence that even
a memory skeptic like me
a memory skeptic like me
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成為即使是我這種對記憶很多疑的人
03:36
is unlikely to find fault with.
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都不太可能挑出毛病的證據。
03:39
First of all, James Comey had it right.
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首先，詹姆士柯米是對的。
03:42
The former head of the FBI
used to sit in his car,
used to sit in his car,
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他是前任聯邦調查局長，以前，
在和總統開完會之後，
他會把自己鎖在車內，
他會把自己鎖在車內，
03:45
lock himself in after meetings
with the president
with the president
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03:48
and write down absolutely everything
he could remember about what happened.
he could remember about what happened.
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盡可能寫下他對剛才
發生的事所記得的一切。
發生的事所記得的一切。
03:52
The now-famous recordings
proved to be quite useful later on.
proved to be quite useful later on.
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這些現在非常有名的記錄，
後來已經被證明是相當有用的。
後來已經被證明是相當有用的。
03:57
Be like Comey.
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要效法柯米。
03:58
Now, you don't need to lock yourself
into your car to do this,
into your car to do this,
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你不用把自己鎖在
你的車裡，也可以做到，
你的車裡，也可以做到，
但，拜託，
04:01
but please, immediately
after something happens,
after something happens,
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在事情發生之後要立刻做，
04:04
I want you to contemporaneously
record what happened.
record what happened.
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我希望你能同時
記錄下發生了什麼事。
記錄下發生了什麼事。
04:07
And do this before talking
to anyone else about it.
to anyone else about it.
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且要在和任何人
談這件事之前就先去做。
談這件事之前就先去做。
04:09
Because as soon as your share your story
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因為一旦你將你的故事分享
給朋友、家人、同事，或治療師，
給朋友、家人、同事，或治療師，
04:11
with friends or family
or colleagues or therapists,
or colleagues or therapists,
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04:14
you have the potential to distort
or change your memory of the event.
or change your memory of the event.
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你就有可能會扭曲或改變
你對那件事的記憶。
你對那件事的記憶。
04:18
Uncontaminated, contemporaneous
evidence is worth gold.
evidence is worth gold.
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未受污染且同時記錄下來的
證據是非常有價值的。
證據是非常有價值的。
04:22
Second: the type of evidence matters.
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第二：證據的類型很重要。
04:26
Sure, you can do a handwritten
note of what happens,
note of what happens,
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當然，你可以用手寫下發生的經過，
04:28
but how do you prove when you wrote it?
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但你要如何證明你是何時寫下的？
04:31
Instead, pull out
your computer or smartphone
your computer or smartphone
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換個方式，拿出你的
電腦或智慧手機，
電腦或智慧手機，
04:33
and make a note that's time-stamped,
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建立一個有時間記錄的筆記，
04:36
where you can prove
this was recorded at this time.
this was recorded at this time.
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讓你可以證明你是
在這個時間點記錄的。
在這個時間點記錄的。
04:39
Contemporaneous,
time-stamped evidence is better.
time-stamped evidence is better.
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同時間記錄下來且附有
時間資訊的證據是比較好的。
時間資訊的證據是比較好的。
最後，要確保你寫下的內容
04:45
Finally, make sure what you're writing
down is actually relevant.
down is actually relevant.
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是相關且重要的。
04:50
Too often, we see that people
bring out Facebook messages,
bring out Facebook messages,
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太常見的狀況是，
人們會拿出臉書訊息，
人們會拿出臉書訊息，
04:54
they bring out time-stamped
pieces of evidence,
pieces of evidence,
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他們會拿出有時間資訊的證據片段，
但，當然，這些訊息
不特別重要，不特別有用。
不特別重要，不特別有用。
04:56
but sure, they're
not particularly relevant,
not particularly relevant,
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04:59
they're not particularly useful.
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05:00
It's easy to write an emotional,
unstructured account of what happened --
unstructured account of what happened --
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對於發生的事，我們很容易
寫下情緒化、沒結構的敘述——
寫下情緒化、沒結構的敘述——
05:04
understandable because
it's an emotional experience --
it's an emotional experience --
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可以理解，因為這個經歷
本身就很情緒化——
本身就很情緒化——
但在之後，對於調查而言，
這些內容不見得是重要的細節。
這些內容不見得是重要的細節。
05:08
but those might not actually be
the details that matter later on
the details that matter later on
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05:11
for an investigation.
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05:13
Write down this list.
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寫下這張清單。
05:15
I want you to keep track of this
and simply fill in the blanks.
and simply fill in the blanks.
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我希望你們能記錄下這些，
只要填寫空白處即可。
只要填寫空白處即可。
05:20
First of all, what happened?
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首先，發生了什麼事？
05:22
In as much detail as possible,
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盡可能寫詳細點，描述當時的情況，
05:24
describe the situation,
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05:25
and do it on the day it happened
if at all possible.
if at all possible.
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如果有可能，在發生的當天就做。
第二，有誰在現場？
有任何目擊者嗎？
有任何目擊者嗎？
05:28
Second, who was there?
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05:29
Were there any witnesses?
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05:31
This becomes crucial potentially later on.
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之後，這項資訊有可能會非常關鍵。
05:33
What exact time and date did this happen?
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發生的確切日期和時間是？
05:36
What location? Where did this happen?
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什麼地方？這件事在哪裡發生的？
05:38
Who did you tell after the event?
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在事後你告訴了誰？
05:40
How did it make you feel
during and after it happened?
during and after it happened?
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在件事發生時和發生後，
你有什麼感覺？
你有什麼感覺？
05:43
And is there any other evidence
such as WhatsApps, photos or emails
such as WhatsApps, photos or emails
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有沒有其他證據，
比如 WhatsApps 訊息、
照片，或電子郵件，
照片，或電子郵件，
05:48
that might lend
more credibility to your case.
more credibility to your case.
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可能可以讓你的案件更有可信度？
05:52
These are all details that are incredibly
easy to record contemporaneously
easy to record contemporaneously
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這些都是很容易
同時記錄下來的細節，
同時記錄下來的細節，
05:56
but are also incredibly easy
to forget later on.
to forget later on.
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但也是後來很容易忘記的細節。
05:58
Humans, according to research,
often overestimate their ability
often overestimate their ability
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根據研究，人類通常會高估自己
在後來記得重要
情緒細節資訊的能力。
情緒細節資訊的能力。
06:02
to remember important
emotional details later on.
emotional details later on.
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06:05
Assume that you're going to forget.
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假設你之後會忘記。
06:07
Assume you have to write it down.
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假設你必須要寫下來。
06:11
Now, these three pieces of advice
are a good start,
are a good start,
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這三項建議是個好的開始，
06:15
but of course they don't overcome
a lot of the other barriers to reporting.
a lot of the other barriers to reporting.
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但，當然，它們無法克服舉報時
會遇到的許多其他障礙。
會遇到的許多其他障礙。
06:19
According to the Equality
and Human Rights Commission,
and Human Rights Commission,
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「平等及人權委員會」在 2018 年
06:22
which published a report in 2018,
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發佈了一份報告，報告指出，
06:25
there's one key recommendation
to overcome some of the other fears
to overcome some of the other fears
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有一項關鍵的建議，可以克服
和「向你的僱主舉報
這類事件」相關的恐懼。
這類事件」相關的恐懼。
06:28
often associated with reporting
these kinds of incidents to your employer.
these kinds of incidents to your employer.
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06:33
One piece of advice that they made?
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他們的建議是什麼？
06:35
Have an online, anonymous reporting tool.
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使用一種線上、暱名的舉報工具。
06:39
Only that way, they say,
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他們說，只有這種方式，
06:40
can you truly overcome many
of the fears associated with reporting.
of the fears associated with reporting.
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你才有可能真正克服
和舉報相關的恐懼。
和舉報相關的恐懼。
06:44
Now, in line with this,
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配合這個想法，
06:46
and informed by what
was happening all around me
was happening all around me
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再加上我身邊發生的事
給我的資訊，
給我的資訊，
06:49
and taking and applying
the memory science,
the memory science,
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並將我多年來一直在研究的
記憶科學拿出來應用，
06:52
the science that I had
been doing for many years,
been doing for many years,
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06:55
I sat down with a number of people
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我和一些人坐下來談，
06:57
and we together created TalkToSpot.com.
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我們合作創立了
TalkToSpot.com。
TalkToSpot.com。
07:01
Spot is an online,
anonymous reporting tool
anonymous reporting tool
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Spot 是一種線上暱名舉報工具，
07:04
that helps you record and report
workplace harassment and discrimination.
workplace harassment and discrimination.
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讓你能記錄和舉報
工作場所的騷擾和歧視。
工作場所的騷擾和歧視。
07:07
It allows you to do it anonymously,
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你可以暱名使用它，
使用它是免費的，
使用它是免費的，
07:09
it allows you to do it for free,
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07:11
and it's completely evidence-based.
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且它完全是以證據為根據。
07:13
You don't have to talk to a person,
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你不需要和任何人對談，
不用害怕會被評斷，
不用害怕會被評斷，
07:14
there's no fear of judgment,
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07:16
and you can do it
whenever and wherever you need.
whenever and wherever you need.
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任何時候、任何地方，
只要有需要都可以使用它。
只要有需要都可以使用它。
07:21
Now you have the power to walk through
an evidence-based memory interview.
an evidence-based memory interview.
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現在，你有能力可以通過
一場以證據為根據的記憶訪談。
07:26
Now, this is called a cognitive interview.
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這叫做認知訪談。
07:28
This is the same technique that police use
when they're doing their job properly.
when they're doing their job properly.
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警方如果有妥當地做他們的工作，
他們也會用到同樣這項技巧。
他們也會用到同樣這項技巧。
07:33
So in best-case scenarios,
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所以，在最好的情況下，
07:35
people who are being asked
about important emotional events
about important emotional events
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當要詢問人關於重要
情緒事件的相關問題時，
情緒事件的相關問題時，
07:38
are being asked in line
with the cognitive interview.
with the cognitive interview.
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要用符合認知訪談的方式來問。
07:41
Now, this walks you through
all the relevant information
all the relevant information
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這種方式能帶你回顧
所有相關的重要資訊，
所有相關的重要資訊，
07:45
so that at the end,
after you've talked to the bot --
after you've talked to the bot --
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最終，在你和機器人談過之後——
07:48
which is an automatic messaging system --
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機器人就是一個自動
發送訊息的系統——
發送訊息的系統——
07:51
after you've talked to the bot,
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和機器人談過之後，
07:53
it generates a PDF record
that's time-stamped and securely signed
that's time-stamped and securely signed
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它會產出一個 PDF 記錄，
附有時間資訊及安全簽章，
附有時間資訊及安全簽章，
07:56
that you can keep for yourself as evidence
in case you want to share it later,
in case you want to share it later,
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你可以自己留下來當作證據，
後續可以拿來使用，
後續可以拿來使用，
08:00
or you can submit it
to your employer right away.
to your employer right away.
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或者，你可以馬上
把它提交給你的僱主。
把它提交給你的僱主。
08:03
And in line with recommendations,
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也跟建議的一樣，
08:05
you can submit it
to your employer anonymously.
to your employer anonymously.
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你可以暱名提交給你的僱主。
08:09
But a reporting tool is only as useful
as the audience that's listening.
as the audience that's listening.
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但是，只有在觀眾願意傾聽的
情況下，舉報工具才會有用。
情況下，舉報工具才會有用。
08:13
So if your employer
is truly committed to change,
is truly committed to change,
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所以，如果你的僱主
真的有心想要改變，
真的有心想要改變，
08:16
we've decided to also offer them
the tool to respond.
the tool to respond.
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我們也決定要提供他們
用來回應的工具。
用來回應的工具。
08:20
So if organizations work with us
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如果組織與我們合作，
08:23
and are truly committed to doing something
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且真的有心想要為工作地點
騷擾和歧視貢獻一份心力，
騷擾和歧視貢獻一份心力，
08:25
about workplace harassment
and discrimination,
and discrimination,
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那麼，即使你選擇保持暱名，
他們也能夠對你做出回應。
他們也能夠對你做出回應。
08:27
they're also able to respond to you
even if you've chosen to stay anonymous.
even if you've chosen to stay anonymous.
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08:32
We think it's important that you can work
together with your employer
together with your employer
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我們認為，很重要的一點，
就是你要能和你的僱主合作
就是你要能和你的僱主合作
08:35
to tackle this issue.
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處理這個議題。
08:38
We think that everybody wins
when we bring light into this dark issue.
when we bring light into this dark issue.
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我們認為，當我們把光線帶給
這個黑暗的議題，大家都是贏家。
這個黑暗的議題，大家都是贏家。
08:43
Whether it happens to you
or to someone you know,
or to someone you know,
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不論它是發生在你
或是你認識的人身上，
或是你認識的人身上，
08:46
recording and reporting what happened
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將發生的事記錄下來並舉報出去，
能夠真正改善
我們如何談論這些議題。
我們如何談論這些議題。
08:47
can really improve
how we talk about these issues.
how we talk about these issues.
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08:52
And if you're an organization,
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如果你是一個組織，這是一項呼籲，
08:53
this is a call to give
your employees access
your employees access
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請讓你的員工能夠取得
08:56
to better and more effective
reporting mechanisms.
reporting mechanisms.
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更好且更有效的舉報機制。
08:59
We know that the current methods
that are used in most organizations
that are used in most organizations
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我們知道，目前大部分組織
採用的方法並不是很有效。
09:04
don't work effectively.
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09:06
It's time to change that if you're
committed to inclusion and diversity.
committed to inclusion and diversity.
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若你願意對全面性和多樣性貢獻心力，
那就該是改變的時候了，
那就該是改變的時候了，
09:13
It's time for us
to celebrate our diversity.
to celebrate our diversity.
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該是我們讚頌我們的
多樣性的時候了。
多樣性的時候了。
09:17
It's time for us to give a voice
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該是我們給予那些
長期以來都被否認的人
長期以來都被否認的人
09:20
to those who have for too long
been denied one.
been denied one.
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一個發聲機會的時候了。
09:23
It's time for us to celebrate
those who come forward,
those who come forward,
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對於那些即使覺得
自己應該要保持暱名——
自己應該要保持暱名——
隱密地做舉報——
卻仍然選擇站出來的人，
卻仍然選擇站出來的人，
09:26
even if they feel
they need to stay anonymous --
they need to stay anonymous --
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09:29
to stay masked to do so.
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該是我們讚頌他們的時候了。
09:31
It's time for a reporting revolution.
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該是發起舉報革命的時候了。
09:34
Thank you.
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謝謝。
09:35
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Julia Shaw - Psychological scientistJulia Shaw is best known for her work in the areas of memory and criminal psychology.
Why you should listen
In 2017 Dr. Julia Shaw cofounded the memory science and artificial intelligence start-up Spot. Spot helps employees report workplace harassment and discrimination and empowers organizations to build a more inclusive and respectful work environment.
In 2016 Shaw published her bestselling book The Memory Illusion, which has appeared in 18 languages. Her second book, Evil: The Science Behind Humanity's Dark Side, was released in Germany in September 2018 and was a Der Spiegel top-20 best seller. She is also a regular contributor to Scientific American.
Besides her research, Shaw is a regular keynote speaker on the topic of memory hacking and artificial intelligence. She also consults as an expert on legal cases, particularly cases involving historical allegations.
Julia Shaw | Speaker | TED.com