TEDxGhent
Erin Marie Saltman: How young people join violent extremist groups -- and how to stop them
艾琳瑪莉沙特曼: 年輕人如何加入極端主義團體──以及如何阻止他們
Filmed:
Readability: 4.9
1,214,427 views
恐怖份子和極端主義份子並不是天性就暴力的反社會者──他們是在一個過程中被刻意徵召並激進化的。艾琳瑪莉沙特曼討論了造成人們加入極端主義團體的推式和拉式因素，並解釋預防和對抗激進化的創新方式。
Erin Marie Saltman - Policy researcher
Dr. Erin Marie Saltman manages Facebook's counterterrorism and counter-extremism policy work for Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Full bio
Dr. Erin Marie Saltman manages Facebook's counterterrorism and counter-extremism policy work for Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
So in 2011, I altered my name
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在 2011 年，我改了名字，
00:16
so that I could participate
in Far Right youth camp in Hungary.
in Far Right youth camp in Hungary.
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這樣我才能參與
在匈牙利的極右派青年營。
在匈牙利的極右派青年營。
00:20
I was doing a PhD looking at
youth political socialization --
youth political socialization --
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我當時在攻讀博士，
研究青年政治社會主義化──
研究青年政治社會主義化──
00:25
why young people were developing
political ideologies
political ideologies
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為什麼在後共產主義的背景下，
00:28
in a post-communist setting,
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年輕人會發展出政治意識形態，
00:30
and I saw that a lot
of young people I was talking to
of young people I was talking to
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我和很多年輕人談過，我看見他們
00:33
were joining the Far Right,
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加入極右派，
00:35
and this was astounding to me.
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這讓我很吃驚。
00:37
So I wanted to enroll in this youth camp
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所以我想要參加這個青年營，
00:39
to get a better understanding
of why people were joining.
of why people were joining.
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進一步了解為什麼人們會加入。
00:42
So a colleague enrolled me,
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一位同事幫我加入了，
00:44
and my last name sounds
a little bit too Jewish.
a little bit too Jewish.
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而我的姓氏聽起來太有猶太味，
00:47
So Erin got turned into Iréna,
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所以艾琳被換成艾琳娜，
00:50
and Saltman got turned into Sós,
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沙特曼被換成沙許，
00:52
which means "salty" in Hungarian.
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它在匈牙利語的意思是「鹹的」。
00:55
And in Hungarian,
your last name goes first,
your last name goes first,
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匈牙利語會把姓氏放在前面，
00:57
so my James Bond name
turned into "Salty Irena,"
turned into "Salty Irena,"
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所以我的詹姆士龐德（情報員）
假名就成了「鹹的艾琳娜」，
假名就成了「鹹的艾琳娜」，
01:02
which is not something
I would have naturally chosen for myself.
I would have naturally chosen for myself.
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這不是個我會幫自己選的名字。
01:06
But going to this camp,
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但，參加這個青年營，
01:08
I was further shocked to realize
that it was actually really fun.
that it was actually really fun.
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讓我進一步感到震驚，
因為我發現它其實很好玩。
因為我發現它其實很好玩。
01:13
They talked very little about politics.
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他們很少談政治。
01:15
It was mostly learning how to ride horses,
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主要是在學如何騎馬、
01:18
shooting a bow and arrow,
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如何射箭，
01:20
live music at night,
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晚上有現場音樂表演，
01:22
free food and alcohol,
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食物和酒精飲料都免費，
01:24
also some air-gun target practice
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還有空氣槍的打靶練習，
01:26
using mainstream politicians'
faces as targets.
faces as targets.
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用主流政治人物的臉當目標。
01:30
And this seemed like a very,
actually, friendly, inclusive group
actually, friendly, inclusive group
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這其實感覺就像是個
非常友善、包容的團體，
非常友善、包容的團體，
01:34
until you started talking or mentioning
anything to do with the Roma population,
anything to do with the Roma population,
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但當你開始談到或提到和吉普賽人口、
猶太人、或移民相關的事時，
猶太人、或移民相關的事時，
01:39
Jewish people or immigrants,
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就不是這樣好玩了，
01:42
and then the discourse would become
very hate-based very quickly.
very hate-based very quickly.
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交談接著就馬上會變成
以恨意為基礎。
以恨意為基礎。
01:46
So it led me into my work now,
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它導致我開始做現在的這個研究，
01:49
where we pose the question,
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在這研究中我們提出一個問題：
01:52
"Why do people join
violent extremist movements,
violent extremist movements,
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「為什麼人們要加入
暴力極端主義運動、
暴力極端主義運動、
01:55
and how do we effectively
counter these processes?"
counter these processes?"
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以及我們如何有效地
對抗這些過程？」
對抗這些過程？」
01:58
In the aftermath of horrible
atrocities and attacks
atrocities and attacks
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在發生在比利時、法國、全世界的
02:01
in places like Belgium, France,
but all over the world,
but all over the world,
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恐怖暴行和攻擊的餘波中，
02:05
sometimes it's easier for us to think,
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有時我們這樣想會比較容易：
02:07
"Well, these must be sociopaths,
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「這些人一定是反社會者，
02:09
these must be naturally
violent individuals.
violent individuals.
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這些人一定天性就很暴力。
02:12
They must have something wrong
with their upbringing."
with their upbringing."
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他們在養育過程中一定有出問題。」
02:14
And what's really tragic
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很不幸的是，
02:16
is that oftentimes there's no one profile.
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通常，他們並非特定形象的人。
02:19
Many people come
from educated backgrounds,
from educated backgrounds,
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許多人來自受過教育的背景，
02:22
different socioeconomic backgrounds,
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來自不同的社會經濟背景，
02:24
men and women, different ages,
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有男有女，年齡都不同，
02:27
some with families, some single.
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有些人有家庭，有些人單身，
02:29
So why? What is this allure?
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所以……為什麼？誘因是什麼？
02:32
And this is what
I want to talk you through,
I want to talk you through,
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我來這裡就是想與大家談這點、
02:34
as well as how do we
challenge this in a modern era?
challenge this in a modern era?
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以及在現代我們要如何挑戰它？
02:38
We do know, through research,
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透過研究，我們確實知道
02:40
that there are quite a number
of different things
of different things
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有許多樣不同的因素
02:42
that affect somebody's
process of radicalization,
process of radicalization,
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會影響人的激進化過程，
我們把這些因素分類為
「推式」和「拉式」因素。
「推式」和「拉式」因素。
02:45
and we categorize these
into push and pull factors.
into push and pull factors.
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02:48
And these are pretty much similar
for Far Right, neo-Nazi groups
for Far Right, neo-Nazi groups
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從極右派、新納粹團體、
一路到伊斯蘭極端主義
一路到伊斯蘭極端主義
02:52
all the way to Islamist extremist
and terrorist groups.
and terrorist groups.
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及恐怖分子團體，
都是很類似的情況。
都是很類似的情況。
02:55
And push factors are basically
what makes you vulnerable
what makes you vulnerable
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推式因素基本上是指讓你脆弱、
02:59
to a process of radicalization,
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讓你容易被激進化過程影響的因素，
03:01
to joining a violent extremist group.
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因而會加入暴力極端主義團體。
03:03
And these can be
a lot of different things,
a lot of different things,
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可能的因素有很多，
03:05
but roughly, a sense of alienation,
a sense of isolation,
a sense of isolation,
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不過，大致上來說，
包括疏離感、孤立感、
包括疏離感、孤立感、
03:09
questioning your own identity,
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執疑你自己的身份、
03:11
but also feeling that your in-group
is under attack,
is under attack,
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還有感覺到你的小團體受到攻擊，
03:14
and your in group might be based
on a nationality or an ethnicity
on a nationality or an ethnicity
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而你的小團體可能是指
同民族、同人種、
同民族、同人種、
03:18
or a religion,
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同宗教的人，
03:19
and feeling that larger powers around you
are doing nothing to help.
are doing nothing to help.
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並覺得你周圍比你更強大的
那些力量都沒有出手幫忙。
那些力量都沒有出手幫忙。
03:24
Now, push factors alone
do not make you a violent extremist,
do not make you a violent extremist,
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單有推式因素並不會
讓你變成暴力的極端主義者，
讓你變成暴力的極端主義者，
03:27
because if that were the fact,
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因為如果是那樣的話，
03:28
those same factors would go
towards a group like the Roma population,
towards a group like the Roma population,
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像吉普賽人這類的團體
也應該會有這些因素，
也應該會有這些因素，
03:32
and they're not
a violently mobilized group.
a violently mobilized group.
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而他們並不是個
有暴力行動傾向的團體。
有暴力行動傾向的團體。
03:35
So we have to look at the pull factors.
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所以我們也得要看拉式因素。
03:37
What are these violent
extremist organizations offering
extremist organizations offering
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這些暴力極端主義組織提供了什麼
03:40
that other groups are not offering?
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是其他團體沒有提供的？
03:42
And actually, this is usually
very positive things,
very positive things,
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事實上，答案通常
是些很正面的事物，
是些很正面的事物，
03:45
very seemingly empowering things,
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似乎很能夠賦權的事物，
03:47
such as brotherhood and sisterhood
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比如兄弟情誼、姐妹情誼、
03:49
and a sense of belonging,
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以及歸屬感，
03:51
as well as giving somebody
a spiritual purpose,
a spiritual purpose,
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以及給人一個靈性的目的，
03:54
a divine purpose
to build a utopian society
to build a utopian society
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一個神聖的目的，
如果這個目的能達成，
如果這個目的能達成，
03:57
if their goals can be met,
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就能建立一個烏托邦社會，
03:59
but also a sense of empowerment
and adventure.
and adventure.
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另外也有賦權和冒險的感覺。
04:02
When we look
at foreign terrorist fighters,
at foreign terrorist fighters,
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當我們去看外國的恐怖份子鬥士，
04:04
we see young men
with the wind in their hair
with the wind in their hair
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我們看到的是沙漠上
自由自在的年輕人，
自由自在的年輕人，
04:07
out in the desert
and women going to join them
and women going to join them
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且女人也去加入他們，
04:09
to have nuptials out in the sunset.
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在日落時分舉行婚禮。
04:12
It's very romantic, and you become a hero.
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那很浪漫，你變成了英雄。
04:16
For both men and women,
that's the propaganda being given.
that's the propaganda being given.
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對男人和女人用的宣傳都一樣。
04:19
So what extremist groups are very good at
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所以極端主義團體非常擅長的是
04:22
is taking a very complicated,
confusing, nuanced world
confusing, nuanced world
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把一個非常複雜、困惑、微妙的世界
04:27
and simplifying that world
into black and white,
into black and white,
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簡化成只有黑與白、
04:30
good and evil.
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正與邪。
04:31
And you become what is good,
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你會在好人的一方，
04:33
challenging what is evil.
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挑戰邪惡的一方。
04:36
So I want to talk a little bit
about ISIS, Daesh,
about ISIS, Daesh,
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我想要談一下 ISIS、伊斯蘭國，
04:40
because they have been a game changer
in how we look at these processes,
in how we look at these processes,
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因為針對我們如何看待這些過程，
他們算是改變遊戲規則的人，
他們算是改變遊戲規則的人，
04:44
and through a lot of the material
and their tactics.
and their tactics.
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他們透過很多素材和戰術來做到。
04:48
They're very much a modern movement.
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他們可說是個現代的運動。
04:50
One of the aspects is the internet
and the usage of social media,
and the usage of social media,
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其中一個面向是網際網路，
社交媒體的運用，
社交媒體的運用，
04:55
as we've all seen in headlines
tweeting and videos of beheadings.
tweeting and videos of beheadings.
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我們已經在關於斬首的推特頭條
以及影片中看過這現象了。
以及影片中看過這現象了。
04:59
But the internet alone
does not radicalize you.
does not radicalize you.
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但光只有網際網路
並不會讓你變激進。
並不會讓你變激進。
05:02
The internet is a tool.
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網際網路只是工具。
05:03
You don't go online shopping for shoes
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你不會上網買了鞋子之後
05:05
and accidentally become a jihadist.
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就突然變成聖戰士。
05:07
However, what the Internet
does do is it is a catalyst.
does do is it is a catalyst.
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然而，網際網路的確是種催化劑。
05:11
It provides tools and scale and rapidity
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它提供工具、規模、迅速性，
05:15
that doesn't exist elsewhere.
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而這些都是其他地方沒有的。
05:16
And with ISIS, all of a sudden,
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在 ISIS 的例子中則是，
05:19
this idea of a cloaked, dark figure
of a jihadist changed for us.
of a jihadist changed for us.
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對我們來說，聖戰士的這個
披斗篷黑暗形象突然改變了。
披斗篷黑暗形象突然改變了。
05:24
All of a sudden,
we were in their kitchens.
we were in their kitchens.
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突然間，我們在他們的廚房裡，
我們看見他們晚餐吃些什麼。
05:26
We saw what they were eating for dinner.
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他們會用推特。
05:28
They were tweeting.
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我們會看到外國恐怖份子鬥士
用他們自己的語言在推特。
用他們自己的語言在推特。
05:29
We had foreign terrorist fighters
tweeting in their own languages.
tweeting in their own languages.
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有女人在那裡談論她們的結婚日，
05:33
We had women going out there
talking about their wedding day,
talking about their wedding day,
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談論她們孩子的出生。
05:36
about the births of their children.
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05:37
We had gaming culture, all of a sudden,
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突然間還有遊戲文化，
05:39
and references
to Grand Theft Auto being made.
to Grand Theft Auto being made.
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還會提及到俠盜獵車手系列。
05:43
So all of a sudden, they were homey.
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所以，突然間，他們就成了自己人。
05:45
They became human.
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他們變成了人類。
05:47
And the problem
is that trying to counter it,
is that trying to counter it,
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問題是，許多社交媒體公司
05:49
lots of governments
and social media companies
and social media companies
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和政府試圖對抗它的方式，
05:51
just tried to censor.
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就只是做審查。
05:52
How do we get rid of terrorist content?
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我們要如何除去恐怖主義的內容？
05:54
And it became a cat-and-mouse game
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它變成了貓捉老鼠的遊戲，
05:56
where we would see accounts taken down
and they'd just come back up,
and they'd just come back up,
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在遊戲中，我們看到帳號
被關閉但又馬上東山再起，
被關閉但又馬上東山再起，
05:59
and an arrogance around somebody
having a 25th account
having a 25th account
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也看到有人對開了
第 25 個帳號沾沾自喜，
第 25 個帳號沾沾自喜，
06:02
and material that was
disseminated everywhere.
disseminated everywhere.
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也會看到素材被到處傳播。
06:06
But we also saw a dangerous trend --
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但我們也看到一個危險的趨勢──
06:08
violent extremists know the rules
and regulations of social media, too.
and regulations of social media, too.
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暴力極端主義者也知道
社交媒體的規則和規定。
社交媒體的規則和規定。
06:13
So we would see a banal
conversation with a recruiter
conversation with a recruiter
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所以我們可以看見與
招聘人員的平凡對話，
招聘人員的平凡對話，
06:17
start on a mainstream platform,
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就直接在主流平台上開始進行，
06:19
and at the point
at which that conversation
at which that conversation
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在某個時點，這個對話就會
06:21
was going to become illegal,
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變成非法的，
06:22
they would jump to a smaller,
less regulated,
less regulated,
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他們就會跳到一個較小、較沒管理、
06:25
more encrypted platform.
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較多加密的平台。
06:26
So all of a sudden, we couldn't
track where that conversation went.
track where that conversation went.
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突然間，我們就無法
追縱那對話到哪去了。
追縱那對話到哪去了。
06:30
So this is a problem with censorship,
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這就是審查制度的問題，
06:32
which is why we need to develop
alternatives to censorship.
alternatives to censorship.
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也是為何我們需要發展
審查制度以外的替代方案。
審查制度以外的替代方案。
06:36
ISIS is also a game-changer
because it's state-building.
because it's state-building.
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ISIS 之所以能改變遊戲規則，
也是因為它在建立國家。
也是因為它在建立國家。
06:39
It's not just recruiting combatants;
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它不只是在徵召戰士；
06:41
it's trying to build a state.
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它是在試圖建立一個國家。
06:43
And what that means is all of a sudden,
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那意味著，突然間，
06:45
your recruitment model is much more broad.
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你的徵召模型就廣泛許多。
06:47
You're not just trying to get fighters --
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你並不只需要戰士──
06:49
now you need architects, engineers,
accountants, hackers and women.
accountants, hackers and women.
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你還需要建築師、工程師、
會計、駭客、女人。
會計、駭客、女人。
06:53
We've actually seen
a huge increase of women going
a huge increase of women going
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我們確實看到，在過去 24 個月，
06:56
in the last 24, but especially 12 months.
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特別是過去 12 個月，
加入的女性人數大增。
加入的女性人數大增。
06:59
Some countries, one in four
of the people going over to join
of the people going over to join
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在某些國家，去加入的人當中，
07:02
are now women.
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四個就有一個是女性。
07:03
And so, this really changes
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這真的改變了
07:05
who we're trying to counter
this process with.
this process with.
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我們在對抗這個過程時所涉及的人。
07:08
Now, not all doom and gloom.
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並非完全沒希望。
07:10
So the rest I'd like to talk about
some of the positive things
some of the positive things
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所以在剩下的時間中，
我想談些正面的東西、
我想談些正面的東西、
07:13
and the new innovation in trying
to prevent and counter violent extremism.
to prevent and counter violent extremism.
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以及在試著預防和對抗
暴力極端主義方面的創新。
暴力極端主義方面的創新。
07:17
Preventing is very different
than countering,
than countering,
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預防和對抗是非常不同的，
07:19
and actually, you can think of it
in medical terms.
in medical terms.
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其實，各位可以用醫學用語來看它。
07:22
So preventative medicine is,
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預防性的藥是
07:24
how do we make it
so you are naturally resilient
so you are naturally resilient
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我們要如何做，才能讓你從
07:27
to this process of radicalization,
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激進化的過程當中自然恢復，
07:30
whereas that is going to be different
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這就不同於
07:31
if somebody is already showing
a symptom or a sign
a symptom or a sign
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已經出現暴力極端主義
意識形態的症狀或徵兆的人。
意識形態的症狀或徵兆的人。
07:34
of belonging to a violent
extremist ideology.
extremist ideology.
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07:37
And so in preventative measures,
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所以，在預防措施上，
07:39
we're talking more
about really broad groups of people
about really broad groups of people
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我們會更考量更廣泛的族群，
07:41
and exposure to ideas
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及對想法更廣泛的接觸，
07:43
to make them resilient.
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來讓他們能夠恢復。
07:45
Whereas it's very different
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這非常不同於
07:46
if somebody is starting to question
and agree with certain things online,
and agree with certain things online,
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有人開始在線上執疑
並同意某些東西的情況，
並同意某些東西的情況，
07:50
and it's also very different
if somebody already has a swastika tattoo
if somebody already has a swastika tattoo
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也非常不同於有人身上
已經有「卍」字刺青的情況，
已經有「卍」字刺青的情況，
07:54
and is very much embedded within a group.
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及已深植在一個團體中的情況。
07:56
How do you reach them?
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要如何觸及到這些人？
07:58
So I'd like to go through three examples
of each one of those levels
of each one of those levels
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針對這三個層級，
我會各舉一個例子。
我會各舉一個例子。
08:02
and talk you through
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帶大家了解
08:03
what some of the new ways
of engaging with people are becoming.
of engaging with people are becoming.
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跟這些人互動的一些
新方式變成什麼樣子。
新方式變成什麼樣子。
08:07
One is "Extreme Dialogue,"
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其一是「極端對話」，
08:08
and it's an educational program
that we helped develop.
that we helped develop.
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它是一個我們協助
發展出來的教育專案。
發展出來的教育專案。
08:11
This one is from Canada,
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這個是來自加拿大，
08:14
and it's meant to create dialogues
within a classroom setting,
within a classroom setting,
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目的是要在教室的環境中創造對話，
08:18
using storytelling,
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用說故事的方式，
08:19
because violent extremism
can be very hard to try to explain,
can be very hard to try to explain,
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因為試著解釋暴力
極端主義可能是很困難的，
極端主義可能是很困難的，
08:23
especially to younger individuals.
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特別是對年輕人解釋。
08:25
So we have a network of former extremists
and survivors of extremism
and survivors of extremism
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所以我們有一個前極端主義者
與極端主義存活者的網路，
與極端主義存活者的網路，
08:29
that tell their stories through video
and create question-giving to classrooms,
and create question-giving to classrooms,
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透過影片來說他們的故事，
創造提出問題的教室，
創造提出問題的教室，
08:33
to start a conversation about the topic.
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來開啟和這個主題有關的對話。
08:35
These two examples show Christianne,
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這兩個例子中的是克莉斯坦，
08:38
who lost her son,
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她失去了兒子，
08:39
who radicalized and died
fighting for ISIS,
fighting for ISIS,
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她兒子激進化並為 ISIS 戰死，
08:41
and Daniel is a former neo-Nazi
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還有前新納粹主義者丹尼爾，
08:43
who was an extremely violent neo-Nazi,
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他以前是極暴力的新納粹主義者，
08:45
and they pose questions about their lives
and where they're at and regret,
and where they're at and regret,
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他們提出關於他們人生的問題，
以及他們有什麼樣的悔恨，
以及他們有什麼樣的悔恨，
08:50
and force a classroom
to have a dialogue around it.
to have a dialogue around it.
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迫使教室中的人
針對此事來進行對話。
針對此事來進行對話。
08:53
Now, looking at that middle range
of individuals,
of individuals,
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看看中間範圍的個人，
08:56
actually, we need a lot
of civil society voices.
of civil society voices.
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其實，我們需要
很多公民社會的聲音。
很多公民社會的聲音。
08:58
How do you interact with people
that are looking for information online,
that are looking for information online,
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你要如何和在線上找資訊的人、
09:02
that are starting to toy with an ideology,
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開始半假半真地考慮
一種意識形態的人、
一種意識形態的人、
09:04
that are doing those searching
identity questions?
identity questions?
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及提出關於尋找身份
相關問題的人互動？
相關問題的人互動？
09:07
How do we provide alternatives for that?
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我們要如何對此提供替代方案？
09:09
And that's when we combine
large groups of civil society voices
large groups of civil society voices
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所以我們需要結合代表
公民社會聲音的大型團體，
公民社會聲音的大型團體，
09:13
with creatives, techies,
app developers, artists, comedians,
app developers, artists, comedians,
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結合創意者、技術專家、應用程式
開發者、藝術家、喜劇演員，
開發者、藝術家、喜劇演員，
09:17
and we can create really specified content
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我們能創造出非常明確的內容，
09:20
and actually, online, disseminate it
to very strategic audiences.
to very strategic audiences.
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放在線上，傳播給
非常關鍵的觀眾群，
非常關鍵的觀眾群，
09:24
So one example would be
creating a satirical video
creating a satirical video
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一個例子是製作諷刺影片，
09:27
which makes fun of Islamophobia,
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拿伊斯蘭恐懼症來開玩笑，
09:30
and targeting it
to 15- to 20-year-olds online
to 15- to 20-year-olds online
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目標為 15 到 20 歲的觀眾，
09:34
that have an interest in white power music
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對於白人至上音樂感興趣，
09:36
and live specifically in Manchester.
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且很明確是住在曼徹斯特的。
09:38
We can use these marketing tools
to be very specific,
to be very specific,
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我們可以用這些行銷工具
來針對非常明確的目標，
來針對非常明確的目標，
09:42
so that we know
when somebody's viewing, watching
when somebody's viewing, watching
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讓我們知道何時
有人在瀏覽、在觀看，
有人在瀏覽、在觀看，
09:44
and engaging with that content,
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和內容有所連結，
09:46
it's not just the average person,
it's not me or you --
it's not me or you --
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並不只是一般人，不是我或你──
09:48
it's a very specific audience
that we are looking to engage with.
that we are looking to engage with.
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是非常明確的觀眾，
我們想要接觸到的特定觀眾。
我們想要接觸到的特定觀眾。
09:52
Even more downstream, we developed
a pilot program called "One to One,"
a pilot program called "One to One,"
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即使在較下流處，我們也開發了
一個前導專案「一個對一個」，
一個前導專案「一個對一個」，
09:56
where we took former extremists
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我們找來前極端主義者，
09:58
and we had them reach out directly
to a group of labeled neofascists
to a group of labeled neofascists
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並讓他們直接去接觸被標籤為
新法西斯主義以及伊斯蘭
新法西斯主義以及伊斯蘭
10:02
as well as Islamist extremists,
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極端份子的團體，
10:04
and put direct messages through Facebook
Messenger into their inbox, saying,
Messenger into their inbox, saying,
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用臉書簡訊直接
發送訊息給他們，說：
發送訊息給他們，說：
10:08
"Hey, I see where you're going.
I've been there.
I've been there.
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「嘿，我知道你打算做什麼，
我有這樣的經驗。
我有這樣的經驗。
10:10
If you want to talk, I'm here."
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如果你想談談，我在這裡。」
10:12
Now, we kind of expected death threats
from this sort of interaction.
from this sort of interaction.
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我們也預期這類互動
會帶來死亡威脅。
會帶來死亡威脅。
10:15
It's a little alarming to have
a former neo-Nazi say, "Hey, how are you?"
a former neo-Nazi say, "Hey, how are you?"
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聽到一位前新納粹對你說
「嘿，你好嗎？」
「嘿，你好嗎？」
是還蠻讓人不安的。
10:19
But actually, we found
that around 60 percent
that around 60 percent
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但其實我們發現，
我們接觸的人中，
約 60% 的人會做出回應，
約 60% 的人會做出回應，
10:22
of the people reached out to responded,
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10:24
and of that, around another 60 percent
had sustained engagement,
had sustained engagement,
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這些人當中，又有 60%
有持續接觸下去，
有持續接觸下去，
10:28
meaning that they were
having conversations
having conversations
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也就是說他們繼續和
最難接觸到的人進行交談，
最難接觸到的人進行交談，
10:30
with the hardest people to reach
about what they were going through,
about what they were going through,
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在談他們的經歷，
種下懷疑的種子，
10:34
planting seeds of doubt
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10:35
and giving them alternatives
for talking about these subjects,
for talking about these subjects,
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提供他們可以談論
這些主題的替代方案，
這些主題的替代方案，
10:38
and that's really important.
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那是非常重要的。
10:41
So what we're trying to do
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所以我們試圖做的，
10:43
is actually bring
unlikely sectors to the table.
unlikely sectors to the table.
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其實是去幫助不太可能的部門。
10:46
We have amazing activists
all over the world,
all over the world,
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在全世界，我們有很棒的活躍份子，
10:48
but oftentimes,
their messages are not strategic
their messages are not strategic
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但通常，他們的訊息不是策略性的，
10:50
or they don't actually reach
the audiences they want to reach.
the audiences they want to reach.
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或者他們其實不會接觸到
他們想要接觸的觀眾，
他們想要接觸的觀眾，
10:53
So we work with networks
of former extremists.
of former extremists.
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所以我們和前極端份子的網路合作。
10:56
We work with networks of young people
in different parts of the world.
in different parts of the world.
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我們與世界不同區域的
年輕人的網路合作。
年輕人的網路合作。
我們和他們合作來提供技術部門，
10:59
And we work with them
to bring the tech sector to the table
to bring the tech sector to the table
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11:02
with artists and creatives
and marketing expertise
and marketing expertise
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配合藝術家、創意者、行銷專家，
11:05
so that we can actually have
a more robust and challenging of extremism
a more robust and challenging of extremism
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這樣我們就能有比較強大
且有挑戰性的極端主義，
且有挑戰性的極端主義，
11:10
that works together.
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能夠一同合作。
11:12
So I would say
that if you are in the audience
that if you are in the audience
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我會說，如果你是觀眾之一，
11:14
and you happen to be a graphic designer,
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且你剛好是平面設計師、
11:17
a poet, a marketing expert,
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詩人、行銷專家、
11:19
somebody that works in PR,
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在公關部門工作的人、
11:21
a comedian --
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喜劇演員──
11:22
you might not think
that this is your sector,
that this is your sector,
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你可能不覺得這是你的部門，
11:25
but actually, the skills
that you have right now
that you have right now
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但事實上，你現在擁有的技能
11:27
might be exactly what is needed
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可能就是協助有效地挑戰
11:29
to help challenge extremism effectively.
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極端主義所需要的技能。
11:32
Thank you.
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謝謝。
11:33
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Erin Marie Saltman - Policy researcherDr. Erin Marie Saltman manages Facebook's counterterrorism and counter-extremism policy work for Europe, the Middle East and Africa.
Why you should listen
Dr. Erin Marie Saltman's background and expertise includes both Far Right and Islamist extremist processes of radicalization within a range of regional and socio-political contexts. Her research and publications have focused on the evolving nature of online extremism and terrorism, gender dynamics within violent extremist organizations and youth radicalization. Saltman has previously held senior research positions at Quilliam Foundation and the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, where she managed international programs. She has also worked with local activists, artists and techies to challenge violent extremism.
As Facebook's Counterterrorism Policy Manager based in London, Saltman regularly speaks with both governments and NGOs on issues related to how Facebook counters terrorism and violent extremism. She has also helped establish the Global Internet Forum to Counter Terrorism, bringing together leading industry partners (Facebook, Google, Microsoft and Twitter) with smaller startups and tech companies to create cross-platform knowledge sharing, technology solutions and research.
Saltman remains a Research Fellow at the Institute for Strategic Dialogue. She is a graduate of Columbia University (BA) and University College London (MA and PhD). View her articles and publications here.
Erin Marie Saltman | Speaker | TED.com