TEDxExeter
Chetan Bhatt: Dare to refuse the origin myths that claim who you are
奇坦巴特: 敢於拒絕那些聲稱「你是誰」的出身源頭迷思
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我們都有著關於出身源頭的故事、身分的迷思、部落的傳述等等，讓我們有安全感和歸屬感。但有時我們的小團體身分會讓我們與整體人類脫節，甚至無法把他人當作人類來看。奇坦巴特這場強大演說的主題是如何去了解我們是誰。他挑戰我們用創意思考，想想彼此以及我們的未來。引用他的說法：該是把「你從哪裡來？」這個問題改成「你要去哪裡？」的時候了。
Chetan Bhatt - Sociologist, human rights activist
Chetan Bhatt teaches and writes about the numerous dangers human rights face today from resurgent Far Right movements. Full bio
Chetan Bhatt teaches and writes about the numerous dangers human rights face today from resurgent Far Right movements. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
I'm Chetan Bhatt
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我是奇坦巴特，
00:14
and when I give my name,
I'm often asked, "Where are you from?"
I'm often asked, "Where are you from?"
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當我說出我的名字時，
常會被問：「你來自哪裡？」
常會被問：「你來自哪裡？」
00:18
And I normally say London.
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我通常會說：「倫敦。」
00:21
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
00:22
But of course, I know
what they're really asking,
what they're really asking,
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但，當然我知道他們要問什麼，
00:25
so I say something like,
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所以我會說類似這樣的話：
00:27
"Well, my grandparents and my mum
were born in India,
were born in India,
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「我的母親和外祖父母在印度出生，
00:31
my dad and I were born in Kenya,
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我父親和我在肯亞出生，
00:33
and I was brought up in London.
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而我在倫敦長大。」
00:35
And then they've got me mapped.
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接著他們就會用地圖來標示我。
00:37
"Ah, you're a Kenyan Asian.
I've worked with one of those."
I've worked with one of those."
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「啊，你是肯亞亞洲人。
我之前有跟你們其中一個共事過。」
我之前有跟你們其中一個共事過。」
00:39
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
00:41
And from my name they probably
assume that I'm a Hindu.
assume that I'm a Hindu.
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他們從我的名字
推測我可能是印度教徒。
推測我可能是印度教徒。
00:44
And this sort of fixes me for them.
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他們就這樣把我定型了。
00:48
But what about the Christians
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那麼，基督徒呢？
00:50
and the Muslims and the atheists
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還有穆斯林或無神論者呢？
00:53
that I grew up with?
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我和他們一起長大。
00:55
Or the socialists and the liberals,
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或其他社會主義者及自由主義者，
00:57
even the occasional Tory?
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甚至偶有保守黨黨員呢？
01:00
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
01:01
Indeed, all kinds of women and men --
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的確，各式各樣，男男女女，
01:03
vegetable sellers, factory workers,
cooks, car mechanics --
cooks, car mechanics --
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賣菜的人、工廠工人、
廚子、汽車技工，
廚子、汽車技工，
01:06
living in my working class area,
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他們住在我這勞動階層的地區，
01:08
in some profoundly important way,
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大家都扮演重要的角色，
01:11
they are also a part of me
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他們也是我的一部份，
01:13
and are here with me.
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現在也與我同在這裡。
01:15
Maybe that's why I find it hard
to respond to questions about identity
to respond to questions about identity
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也許這就是為什麼我覺得很難回答
關於身分、關於出身的問題。
01:20
and about origin.
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01:21
And it's not just a sort of
teenage refusal to be labeled.
teenage refusal to be labeled.
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這並不像年輕人不想被貼標籤
這麼地單純而已。
這麼地單純而已。
01:25
It's about our own most identities,
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這是關於我們自己的身分，
01:28
the ones that we put our hands up to,
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我們會舉手認同的那些身分，
01:31
the ones that we cheer for,
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我們所引以為傲的身分，
01:32
the ones that we fight for,
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我們會奮戰爭取的身分，
01:34
the ones that we love or hate.
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我們熱愛或討厭的身分，
01:37
And it's about how we apprehend ourselves
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以及關於我們如何理解自己
01:40
as well as others.
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和看待別人的身分。
01:42
And it's about identities
we just assume that we have
we just assume that we have
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這些身分是我們自己會認同、
01:44
without thinking too much about them.
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想都不用想、理所當然的身分。
01:48
But our responses
to questions of identity and origin
to questions of identity and origin
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但大家對於身分及出身問題的回應，
01:52
have substantial
social and political importance.
social and political importance.
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有著極高的社會與政治的重要性。
01:57
We see the wars, the rages of identity
going on all around us.
going on all around us.
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我們到處看得到
因身分認同問題所引發的戰爭，
因身分認同問題所引發的戰爭，
02:01
We see violent religious,
national and ethnic disputes.
national and ethnic disputes.
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到處都有宗教、民族、
人種認同問題的暴力與爭執。
人種認同問題的暴力與爭執。
02:06
And often the conflict is based
on old stories of identity
on old stories of identity
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而衝突的根本原因
經常是身分、歸屬感、
02:11
and belonging
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出身地認同問題等等的老故事。
02:13
and origins.
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02:14
And these identities are based on myths,
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這些身分認同建立在迷思上，
02:17
typically about ancient,
primordial origins.
primordial origins.
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典型是古老、原始、
出身源頭的身分認同問題。
出身源頭的身分認同問題。
02:21
And these could be about Adam and Eve
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可能與亞當和夏娃有關，
02:23
or about the supremacy
of a caste or gender
of a caste or gender
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或是誰的社會地位比較高、
性別地位比較高，
性別地位比較高，
02:26
or about the vitality of a supposed race
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或是哪一族群的人才是正宗的，
02:29
or about the past glories
of an empire or civilization
of an empire or civilization
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或是過去帝國或文明的榮耀，
02:32
or about a piece of land
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或是一塊土地的所有權，
02:34
that some imagined deity has gifted.
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想像出來一塊神所賜予的土地。
02:38
Now, people say
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人們說，
02:40
that origin stories and identity myths
make us feel secure.
make us feel secure.
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出身源頭的故事及國家認同的迷思
能讓我們有安全感。
能讓我們有安全感。
02:44
What's wrong with that?
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那樣有什麼不好？
02:45
They give us a sense of belonging.
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它們能給我們歸屬感。
02:47
Identity is your cultural clothing,
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身分認同是你的文化外衣，
02:49
and it can make you feel
warm and fuzzy inside.
warm and fuzzy inside.
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讓你覺得被包著很溫暖很舒服。
02:52
But does it really?
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真的是這樣嗎？
02:54
Do we really need
identity myths to feel safe?
identity myths to feel safe?
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我們真的需要虛構的身分認同
才能感到安全嗎？
才能感到安全嗎？
02:57
Because I see religious,
national, ethnic disputes
national, ethnic disputes
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因為在我看來，
宗教、種族、人種的爭執
宗教、種族、人種的爭執
03:01
as adding to human misery.
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只會增加人類的苦難。
03:05
Can I dare you
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我能否挑戰你
03:07
to refuse every origin myth
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是否敢拒絕每一個
宣稱與你有重大關係的
宣稱與你有重大關係的
出身源頭的身分認同迷思？
03:11
that claims you?
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03:13
What if we reject
every single primordial origin myth
every single primordial origin myth
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如果我們拒絕每一個
原始的出身迷思，
原始的出身迷思，
03:17
and develop a deeper sense of personhood,
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並發展出對個人特質更深的認識，
03:20
one responsible to humanity as a whole
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對整體人類負責，
而不是為特定的族群負責，那會如何？
03:22
rather than to a particular tribe,
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03:25
a radically different idea of humanity
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用一個全然不同的角度
來看待全體人類，
來看待全體人類，
03:27
that exposes how origin myths mystify,
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揭露出身分的迷思如何迷惑、隱藏了
03:32
disguise global power,
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全球的權力、
03:35
rapacious exploitation,
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貪婪的剝削、貧困，
03:37
poverty, the worldwide oppression
of women and girls,
of women and girls,
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全球對女人和女孩的壓迫，
03:41
and of course massive,
accelerating inequalities?
accelerating inequalities?
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當然還有海量、快速增加的不平等。
03:46
Now, origin myths
are closely linked to tradition,
are closely linked to tradition,
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出身迷思與傳統有著密切的關係。
03:49
and the word tradition
points to something old
points to something old
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「傳統」一詞是指某件古老、
03:51
and permanent, almost natural,
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恆久不變，幾乎純天然的東西，
03:53
and people assume tradition
is just history,
is just history,
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很多人誤以為傳統
僅僅是濃縮成美好故事的歷史。
03:56
simply the past
condensed into a nice story.
condensed into a nice story.
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04:00
But let's not confuse
tradition with history.
tradition with history.
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但千萬不要把傳統和歷史混淆了。
04:02
The two are often in severe conflict.
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這兩者常常會有劇烈的衝突。
04:07
Origin stories are usually recently
created fictions of ancient belonging,
created fictions of ancient belonging,
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出身的故事通常是近代創造出來
虛構的古早歸屬感，
虛構的古早歸屬感，
04:11
and they're absurd
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它們很荒謬，
04:12
given the complexity of humanity
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畢竟人性其實很複雜的，
04:13
and our vastly interconnected,
even if very unequal world.
even if very unequal world.
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即使在這個非常不平等的世界中
我們彼此都是相互連結的。
我們彼此都是相互連結的。
04:18
And today we see claims to tradition
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現今，我們看到有人打著傳統的旗號、
04:22
that claim to be ancient
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號稱自己才是古老正統的人，
04:23
changing rapidly in front of our eyes.
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正明目張膽快速地
改變著我們的社會。
改變著我們的社會。
04:29
I was brought up in the 1970s near Wembley
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1970 年代，我在溫布萊一帶長大，
04:31
with Asian, English, Caribbean,
Irish families living in our street,
Irish families living in our street,
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和街坊的亞洲、英國、加勒比、
及愛爾蘭家庭一起長大，
及愛爾蘭家庭一起長大，
04:36
and the neo-Nazi National Front
was massive then
was massive then
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那時新納粹民族陣線十分壯大，
04:39
with regular marches and attacks on us
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常常在示威，且會攻擊我們，
04:41
and a permanent threat
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威脅沒消失過，
04:43
and often a frequent reality
of violence against us
of violence against us
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經常在街上、在我們家裡，
04:46
on the streets, in our homes,
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對我們使用暴力
04:50
typically by neo-Nazis and other racists.
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幾乎都是新納粹主義者和
其他種族主義者所策動的。
其他種族主義者所策動的。
04:52
And I remember during a general election
a leaflet came through our letter box
a leaflet came through our letter box
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我記得有一次普選，
家裡的信箱有一張宣傳單，
家裡的信箱有一張宣傳單，
04:56
with a picture of the National Front
candidate for our area.
candidate for our area.
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上面是我們那區的
民族陣線候選人照片。
民族陣線候選人照片。
05:01
And the picture
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而那張照片，
05:02
was of our next-door neighbor.
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是我們的隔壁鄰居。
05:05
He threatened to shoot me once
when I played in the garden as a kid,
when I played in the garden as a kid,
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我小時候在花園玩時，
他曾威脅過要射殺我，
他曾威脅過要射殺我，
05:09
and many weekends, shaven-headed
National Front activists
National Front activists
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許多個週末，都有光頭的民族陣線
05:11
arrived at his house
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激進份子到他家，
05:13
and emerged with scores of placards
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許多標語海報被張貼出來，
05:15
screaming that they wanted us
to go back home.
to go back home.
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大聲吶喊著要我們滾回老家。
05:21
But today he's one of my mum's best mates.
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但現在，他是我母親
最好的朋友之一。
最好的朋友之一。
05:25
He's a very lovely, gentle and kind man,
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他是個很親切、溫和、仁慈的人，
05:29
and at some point in his
political journey out of fascism
political journey out of fascism
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在他的法西斯主義政治
旅程中的某個時點，
旅程中的某個時點，
05:33
he embraced a broader idea of humanity.
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他對人性有了更寬容的想法。
05:38
There was a Hindu family
that we got to know well --
that we got to know well --
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有一個我們很熟知的印度家庭──
05:40
and you have to understand
that life in our street
that life in our street
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各位要知道，在我們街坊的生活，
05:43
was a little bit like the setting
for an Asian soap opera.
for an Asian soap opera.
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有點像是亞洲肥皂劇的場景。
05:45
Everyone knew everyone else's business,
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每個人都知道每個人的事，
05:47
even if they didn't want it
to be known by anyone at all.
to be known by anyone at all.
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即使你不想讓任何人
知道的事也會被知道。
知道的事也會被知道。
05:50
You really had no choice in this matter.
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這不是你能選擇的。
05:52
But in this family,
there was a quiet little boy
there was a quiet little boy
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但這個家庭，
有一個很安靜的小男孩，
有一個很安靜的小男孩，
05:57
who went to the same school as I did,
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他和我上同一所學校，
05:58
and after I left school,
I didn't hear much more about him,
I didn't hear much more about him,
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我離開學校之後，
就沒什麼聽說他的事了，
就沒什麼聽說他的事了，
06:01
except that he'd gone off to India.
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只知道他去了印度。
06:06
Now around 2000,
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約 2000 年時，
06:08
I remember seeing this short book.
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我看了一本簡短的書。
06:12
The book was unusual
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這本書很不尋常，
06:13
because it was written
by a British supporter of Al Qaeda,
by a British supporter of Al Qaeda,
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因為它是由英國蓋達組織的
支持者所寫的，
支持者所寫的，
06:17
and in it the author calls
for attacks in Britain.
for attacks in Britain.
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在書中，作者呼籲大家攻擊英國。
06:20
This is in 1999,
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這是 1999 年，
06:22
so 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq
was still in the future,
was still in the future,
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還沒有發生進攻伊拉克
事件和九一一事件，
事件和九一一事件，
06:26
and he helped scout
New York bombing targets.
New York bombing targets.
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他協助監視紐約炸彈攻擊的目標。
06:29
He taught others how to make a dirty bomb
to use on the London Underground,
to use on the London Underground,
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他教別人如何製作髒彈
用來炸倫敦地鐵，
用來炸倫敦地鐵，
06:34
and he plotted a massive bombing campaign
in London's shopping areas.
in London's shopping areas.
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他策劃了一個針對倫敦購物區的
大規模炸彈攻擊活動。
大規模炸彈攻擊活動。
06:38
He's a very high-risk security
prisoner in the UK
prisoner in the UK
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他是英國監獄中高風險的囚犯，
06:41
and one of the most important Al Qaeda
figures to be arrested in Britain.
figures to be arrested in Britain.
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是英國逮捕的最重要的
蓋達組織人物之一。
蓋達組織人物之一。
06:47
The author of that book
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那本書的作者
06:49
was the very same quiet little boy
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正是跟我上同一所學校的那位
06:52
who went to my school.
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安靜的小男孩。
06:55
So a Hindu boy from Britain
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所以，來自英國的印度男孩，
06:57
became an Al Qaeda fighter
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變成了蓋達組織的鬥士，
06:59
and a most-wanted international terrorist,
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且是國際間極想要逮補的恐怖份子，
07:01
and he rejected what people would call
his Hindu or Indian or British identity,
his Hindu or Indian or British identity,
139
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他拒絕了人們會用來稱他的
印度教、印度人或英國人身分，
印度教、印度人或英國人身分，
07:06
and he became someone else.
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他變成了另一個人。
07:08
He refused to be who he was.
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他拒絕做過去的自己。
07:10
He recreated himself,
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他重新創造了他自己，
07:12
and this kind of journey is very common
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這對開始涉入蓋達組織、
07:14
for young men and women
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或伊斯蘭國、或其它
07:16
who become involved
in Al Qaeda or Islamic State
in Al Qaeda or Islamic State
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跨國武裝團體的年輕男女而言，
07:19
or other transnational armed groups.
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這類的旅程非常常見。
07:22
Al Qaeda's media spokesman
is a white American
is a white American
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蓋達組織的媒體發言人
是個白種美國人，
是個白種美國人，
07:26
from a Jewish and Catholic
mixed background,
mixed background,
148
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來自猶太教和天主教的混合背景，
07:29
and neither he nor the boy from my school
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不論是他，或是我學校的那個男孩，
07:32
were from Muslim backgrounds.
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都不是來自穆斯林背景。
07:34
There's no point in asking them
where are they from.
where are they from.
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問他們來自哪裡是沒意義的。
07:37
A more important question is
where they're going.
where they're going.
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更重要的問題是，他們要去哪裡。
07:40
And I would also put it to you
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我也要跟各位說的，
07:42
that exactly the same journey
occurs for those young men and women
occurs for those young men and women
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同樣的旅程也會發生在
07:45
who were brought up
in Muslim family backgrounds.
in Muslim family backgrounds.
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在穆斯林家庭背景中長大的
年輕男女身上。
年輕男女身上。
07:48
Most of those who join Al Qaeda
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大部份來自歐洲、亞洲、北美，
07:51
and other Salafi jihadi groups
from Europe, Asia, North America,
from Europe, Asia, North America,
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甚至有許多來自中東，
接著去蓋達組織及其他
沙拉菲聖戰團體的那些人，
沙拉菲聖戰團體的那些人，
07:56
even in many cases the Middle East
158
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07:58
are those who have comprehensively
rejected their backgrounds
rejected their backgrounds
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這些人都完全否認他們過往的背景，
08:02
to become, in essence, new people.
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而從本質上變成一個新的人。
08:06
They spend an enormous amount of time
attacking their parents' backgrounds
attacking their parents' backgrounds
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他們花大把大把的時間
攻擊父母的來歷背景，
攻擊父母的來歷背景，
08:10
as profane, impure, blasphemous,
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說那粗俗、不純淨、褻瀆神明，
08:13
the wrong type of Islam,
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是種錯誤的伊斯蘭教；
08:15
and their vision instead
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而他們的觀點
08:17
is a fantastical view
of cosmic apocalypse.
of cosmic apocalypse.
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才是最高級正統的宇宙啟示觀點。
08:21
It's a born again vision.
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它是重生的版本。
08:23
Discard your past,
your society, your family and friends
your society, your family and friends
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拋棄你的過去、你的社會、
你的家庭、你的朋友，
你的家庭、你的朋友，
08:26
since they're all impure.
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因為他們都不純淨。
08:29
Instead, become someone else,
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取而代之，變成另一個人，
08:33
your true self,
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你的真正自我，
08:35
your authentic self.
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你的真實自我。
08:39
Now, this isn't
about a return to the past.
about a return to the past.
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這跟回到過去的傳統無關，
08:43
It's about using a forgery of the past
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這跟他們利用偽造的過去有關，
08:46
to envision an appalling future
which begins today at year zero.
which begins today at year zero.
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預設了一個駭人聽聞的未來，
說今天就是這個未來的元年。
說今天就是這個未來的元年。
08:50
This is why over 80 percent of the victims
of Al Qaeda and Islamic State
of Al Qaeda and Islamic State
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這就是為什麼蓋達組織和
伊斯蘭國的受害者中有 80%
伊斯蘭國的受害者中有 80%
08:54
are people from Muslim backgrounds.
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都是來自穆斯林背景的。
08:56
The first act by Salafi jihadi groups
when they take over an area
when they take over an area
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沙拉菲聖戰團體佔據一個
地區時做的第一件事，
地區時做的第一件事，
09:00
is to destroy existing Muslim institutions
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就是摧毀既有的穆斯林機構，
09:03
including mosques,
shrines, preachers, practices.
shrines, preachers, practices.
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包括清真寺、神壇、傳道者、實踐機構。
09:08
Their main purpose is to control
and punish people internally,
and punish people internally,
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他們的主要目的是控制人的思想
並懲罰人的內心，
並懲罰人的內心，
09:11
to dictate the spaces that women may go,
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像是限定女人能去的地方，
09:14
their clothing, family relations,
182
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2136
限定她們的服飾、家庭關係、信仰，
09:16
beliefs, even the minute detail
of how one prays.
of how one prays.
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甚至如何祈禱的瑣碎細節。
09:21
And you get the impression in the news
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你從新聞得到的印象是
09:23
that they are after us in the West,
185
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他們的主要目標是在西方的我們，
09:26
but they are actually mainly after
people from other Muslim backgrounds.
people from other Muslim backgrounds.
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但其實他們的主要目標是
其他來自穆斯林背景的人。
其他來自穆斯林背景的人。
09:32
In their view, no other Muslim
can ever be pure enough,
can ever be pure enough,
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在他們的觀點，
其他的穆斯林是不夠純淨的，
其他的穆斯林是不夠純淨的，
09:37
so ordinary beliefs and practices
that have existed for centuries
that have existed for centuries
188
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所以已經存在數百年的
一般信仰和實踐機構，
一般信仰和實踐機構，
09:40
are attacked as impure
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1976
會被來自伯明罕或倫敦的
09:42
by teenagers from Birmingham or London
190
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3176
青少年視為不純淨，
而被他們攻擊，
而被他們攻擊，
09:45
who know nothing
191
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1720
這些無知的青少年
09:48
about the histories
that they so joyously obliterate.
that they so joyously obliterate.
192
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5560
根本完全不懂那些
他們樂於想要抹滅的歷史。
他們樂於想要抹滅的歷史。
09:54
Now here, their claim to tradition
is at war with history,
is at war with history,
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4856
在這裡，他們打著
歷史傳統的口號發動戰爭，
歷史傳統的口號發動戰爭，
09:59
but they're nevertheless
very certain about their purity
very certain about their purity
194
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3056
認定他們才是純淨的，
10:02
and about the impurity of others.
195
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2320
其他人是不純淨的。
10:06
Purity,
196
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1200
純淨、
10:08
certainty,
197
596640
1616
正統性、
10:10
the return to authentic tradition,
198
598280
1736
返回到真實的傳統、
10:12
the quest for these
can lead to lethal visions
can lead to lethal visions
199
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3296
追尋這些，會讓一個
10:15
of perfect societies and perfected people.
200
603360
4016
完美的社會和人民受傷害。
10:19
This is what the main Hindu
fundamentalist organization in India
fundamentalist organization in India
201
607400
4256
如今在印度，信奉印度基本教義的人
他們的大型集會
他們的大型集會
10:23
looks like today at its mass rally.
202
611680
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看起來就是這個樣子。
10:26
Maybe it reminds you
of the 1930s in Italy or Germany,
of the 1930s in Italy or Germany,
203
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3296
也許它會讓你想起
1930 年代在義大利或德國
1930 年代在義大利或德國
10:30
and the movement's roots
are indeed in fascism.
are indeed in fascism.
204
618080
2216
紮根的法西斯主義活動。
10:32
It was a member of the same
Hindu fundamentalist movement
Hindu fundamentalist movement
205
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3736
當時射殺甘地的人，
10:36
who shot dead Mahatma Gandhi.
206
624080
2840
就是這個活動中的成員之一。
10:40
Hindu fundamentalists today
view this murderer as a national hero,
view this murderer as a national hero,
207
628160
5016
現今的印度基本教義主義者
把這個兇手視為是國家英雄，
把這個兇手視為是國家英雄，
10:45
and they want to put up
statues of him throughout India.
statues of him throughout India.
208
633200
3816
他們想要在整個印度為他立雕像。
10:49
They've been involved for decades
209
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1616
數十年來，他們都有涉入
10:50
in large-scale mass violence
against minorities.
against minorities.
210
638680
2536
針對少數族群的大規模群眾暴力。
10:53
They ban books, art, films.
211
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2616
他們禁止書籍、藝術、電影。
10:55
They attack romantic couples
on Valentine's Day,
on Valentine's Day,
212
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2256
他們在情人節攻擊浪漫的情侶，
10:58
Christians on Christmas Day.
213
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2056
在聖誕節攻擊基督徒。
11:00
They don't like others talking critically
214
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2896
他們不喜歡其他人去批判
11:03
about what they see
as their ancient culture
as their ancient culture
215
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2616
他們如何看待他們的祖先文化、
11:05
or using its images
216
653800
1496
或使用它的形象，
11:07
or caricaturing it
217
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1616
或用漫畫誇張地描述它，
11:08
or drawing cartoons about it.
218
656960
2560
或是把它當卡通題材。
11:12
But the people making
the strongest possible claims
the strongest possible claims
219
660680
3496
但針對古老、永恆的印度教
11:16
about ancient, timeless Hindu religion
220
664200
2896
提出最強烈主張的人，
11:19
are dressed in brown shorts
and white shirts
and white shirts
221
667120
2616
很奇怪地，在聲稱自己
11:21
while claiming, oddly,
222
669760
2656
是正統的亞利安人的時候，
11:24
to be the original Aryan race,
223
672440
2856
卻穿著褐色短褲和白色上衣，
11:27
just like the violent Salafi jihadis
224
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2416
就像暴力的沙拉菲聖戰士
11:29
who make their claims
about their primordial religion
about their primordial religion
225
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2976
申稱他們才是創始宗教時，
11:32
while dressed in black military uniforms
226
680760
2456
卻穿著黑色的軍服，
11:35
and wearing balaclavas.
227
683240
1520
戴著巴拉克拉法帽。
11:37
These people are manufacturing
pure, pristine identities of conviction
pure, pristine identities of conviction
228
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4376
這些人就是在製造純正信念、
創始教義正統性假象的人。
11:42
and of certainty.
229
690360
1216
11:43
Fundamentalists see religion and culture
as their sole property, a property.
as their sole property, a property.
230
691600
4560
他們將宗教和文化
視為他們獨有的資產，一種資產。
視為他們獨有的資產，一種資產。
11:49
But religions and cultures are processes.
231
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2576
但宗教和文化的演變是一個過程，
11:51
They're not things. They're impermanent.
They're messy. They're impure.
They're messy. They're impure.
232
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3376
它們不是東西，不會恆久不變；
它們是零散複雜、不純正的。
它們是零散複雜、不純正的。
11:55
Look at any religion
and you'll see disputes and arguments
and you'll see disputes and arguments
233
703000
2736
世界上任何一個宗教
11:57
going all the way down.
234
705760
2000
都會有人支持與批評。
12:01
Any criticism of religion in any form
235
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2920
因此，任何形式對信仰
12:05
has to therefore be
236
713360
1936
做的任何評論，
12:07
part of the expansive sense of humanity
237
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2576
都可以被視為人性的延伸，
12:09
we should aspire to.
238
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1200
我們都必須有包容的雅量。
12:12
I respect your right
to have and to express your religion
to have and to express your religion
239
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4456
我尊重你有不同信仰、文化，
12:16
or your culture or your opinion,
240
724880
2616
以及表達信仰理念的權力，
12:19
but I don't necessarily
have to respect the content.
have to respect the content.
241
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2856
但我不見得要尊重它的內容。
12:22
I might like some of it.
242
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1256
但我可能會喜歡其中某些內容。
12:23
I might like how an old church
looks, for example,
looks, for example,
243
731680
2816
比如，我可能喜歡老教堂的外貌，
12:26
but this isn't the same thing.
244
734520
1520
但這是兩碼子事。
12:28
Similarly, I have a human right
245
736960
2616
同樣的，我有說出
12:31
to say something
that you may find offensive,
that you may find offensive,
246
739600
2136
冒犯你的話的人權，
12:33
but you do not have a human right
not to be offended.
not to be offended.
247
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2480
但你沒有不被冒犯的人權。
12:37
In a genuine democracy,
we're constantly offended
we're constantly offended
248
745080
2936
在真正的民主中，我們經常被冒犯，
12:40
since people express
different views all the time.
different views all the time.
249
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2776
因為人們總是在表達不同的觀點。
12:42
They also change their views,
250
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1840
人們還會改變他們的觀點，
12:45
so their views are impermanent.
251
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1536
所以他們的觀點不是恆久不變的。
12:46
You cannot fix someone's political views
252
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3296
你不能根據別人的信仰、民族背景、
12:50
based on their religious
or national or cultural background.
or national or cultural background.
253
758240
3120
或文化背景，
來判定他的的政治觀點。
來判定他的的政治觀點。
12:54
Now, these points about religious purity
254
762840
2816
關於信仰純淨的這些論點，
12:57
also apply to nationalism and to racism.
255
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3400
也被用在民族主義和種族主義上。
13:03
I'm always puzzled
256
771160
1360
我總是搞不懂，
13:05
to have pride in your national
or ethnic identity,
or ethnic identity,
257
773680
4800
因民族或種族身分而感到驕傲，
13:11
pride in the accident of birth
from a warm and cozy womb,
from a warm and cozy womb,
258
779920
3400
因從一個溫暖舒適的子宮
出生而感到驕傲，
出生而感到驕傲，
難道你因為出生這個偶發事件，
就相信自己比較優越嗎？
就相信自己比較優越嗎？
13:16
belief in your superiority
because of the accident of birth.
because of the accident of birth.
259
784560
3400
13:21
These people have very firm ideas
260
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2256
這些人對誰跟他同一國，
13:23
about what belongs and what doesn't belong
261
791560
2000
誰跟他不同國分的很清楚，
13:25
inside the cozy national cultures
that they imagine.
that they imagine.
262
793584
3672
沉浸在他們幻想出來的、
優越的民族主義文化中。
優越的民族主義文化中。
13:29
And I'm going to caricature a bit here,
but only a little bit.
but only a little bit.
263
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3816
這裡我要稍稍誇地張描述
一下，但只是稍稍地。
一下，但只是稍稍地。
13:33
I want you to imagine
the supporter of some Little Englander
the supporter of some Little Englander
264
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3256
請各位想像那些英國本土主義者
13:36
or British nationalist political party,
265
804400
1896
或英國民族主義政黨的支持者，
13:38
and he's sitting at home
266
806320
1376
正坐在家裡，
13:39
and he's screaming about foreigners
267
807720
2856
對著電視大喊，
說外國人侵略他的國家，
13:42
invading his country
268
810600
1816
13:44
while watching Fox News,
269
812440
1936
但他看的是 Fox News，
13:46
an American cable channel
270
814400
2176
這是個美國的有線頻道，
13:48
owned by an Australian
271
816600
1456
頻道所有者是澳洲人，
13:50
on his South Korean television set
272
818080
2136
而他的電視機則是南韓品牌，
13:52
which was bought
by his Spanish credit card
by his Spanish credit card
273
820240
3576
用他的西班牙信用卡所購買，
13:55
which is paid off monthly
by his high-street British bank
by his high-street British bank
274
823840
3256
這信用卡是透過他的
英國大眾銀行來做每月的繳款,
英國大眾銀行來做每月的繳款,
13:59
which has its headquarters in Hong Kong.
275
827120
2640
而這家英國銀行的總部在香港。
14:02
He supports a British football team
owned by a Russian.
owned by a Russian.
276
830360
4056
他支持的英國足球隊，
老闆是俄國人。
老闆是俄國人。
14:06
His favorite brand of fish and chips
277
834440
1736
他最愛的炸魚薯條品牌
14:08
is owned by a Swedish
venture capitalist firm.
venture capitalist firm.
278
836200
2656
背後所有人是瑞典的風險投資公司。
14:10
The church he sometimes goes to
279
838880
1496
他有時會去的教堂，
14:12
has its creed decided
in meetings in Ghana.
in meetings in Ghana.
280
840400
3440
其教義是在迦納共和國
舉行的會議所定案的。
舉行的會議所定案的。
14:17
His Union Jack underpants
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他的英國國旗內褲
14:20
were made in India.
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是印度製的。
14:21
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
14:23
And --
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還有──
14:25
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
14:31
Thank you.
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謝謝。
14:32
And they're laundered regularly
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而他的內褲定期被一位
14:36
by a very nice Polish lady.
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非常和藹的波蘭女士所清洗的。
14:39
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
14:41
There is no pure ethnicity,
national culture,
national culture,
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這世上沒有純淨的種族
或民族文化的存在，
或民族文化的存在，
14:44
and the ethical choices we have today
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我們現今的道德選擇，
14:46
are far wider than being forced to choose
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絕對不會逼迫我們在
14:50
between racist right
and religious right visions,
and religious right visions,
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種族權力和信仰權力
14:53
dismal visions of culture.
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兩個另人沮喪的文化版本之間做選擇。
14:56
Now, culture isn't just
about language, food, clothing and music,
about language, food, clothing and music,
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文化並不只是語言、
食物、衣著、音樂，
食物、衣著、音樂，
15:00
but gender relations, ancient monuments,
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還包括性別關係、古老歷史遺跡、
15:03
a heritage of sacred texts.
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神聖文字的遺產。
15:06
But culture can also be
what has been decided to be culture
what has been decided to be culture
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但文化也會被，而且已經
15:10
by those who have a political stake
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被那些掌有政治權利的人所定義，
15:13
in pounding culture
into the shape of a prison.
into the shape of a prison.
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他們把文化捶打成監獄的形狀。
15:18
Big political identity claims
are elite bids for power.
are elite bids for power.
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大型政治操作身分的宣傳活動，
是政治菁英爭權奪利的操作手段，
是政治菁英爭權奪利的操作手段，
15:21
They're not answers to social
or economic or political injustices.
or economic or political injustices.
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並不是社會、經濟問題，
或政治不公的解答，
或政治不公的解答，
15:25
They often obscure them.
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1600
通常只會使它們更不公正、更混亂。
15:27
And what about the large number
of people across the globe
of people across the globe
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還有，這世上有很多
15:30
who can't point
to a monument from their past,
to a monument from their past,
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無法指出祖先墓碑在哪裏的人，
15:32
who don't possess a sacred written text,
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有很多沒有神聖文字手稿的人，
15:34
who can't hark back
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有很多不敢回憶起
15:36
to the past glories
of a civilization or empire?
of a civilization or empire?
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過去文明或帝國榮耀的人，
那麼這些人怎麼辦呢？
那麼這些人怎麼辦呢？
15:40
Are these people less a part of humanity?
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這些人就不算是人類的一部份嗎？
15:46
What about you,
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那麼在座現在正在
15:48
now, listening to this?
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聽這演說的人呢？
15:49
What about you and your identity,
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你和你的身分又如何呢？
15:51
because you stitch your experiences
and your thoughts into a continuous person
and your thoughts into a continuous person
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5376
因為你過去的經驗與想法
隨著時間會緊緊地跟在你身上。
15:56
moving forward in time.
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15:58
And this is what you are when you say,
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這才是當你用「我是誰」
表達自己的時候，
表達自己的時候，
16:00
"I," "am," or "me."
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真正的你。
16:03
But this also includes
all of your hopes and dreams,
all of your hopes and dreams,
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這當中也包含了
你所有的希望和夢想，
你所有的希望和夢想，
16:06
all of the you's that could have been,
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所有你未曾實現的自己，
16:09
and it includes all the other people
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也包含所有其他人，
16:11
and the things that are
in the biography of who you are.
in the biography of who you are.
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以及將來在你自傳中的所有事物。
16:14
They, the others,
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他們，其他人，
16:16
are also a part of you,
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也是你的一部份，
16:18
moving forward with you.
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和你在人生中一起前行的人。
16:22
Your authentic self,
if such a thing exists,
if such a thing exists,
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你的真實自我，如果真的存在的話，
16:25
is a complex, messy and uncertain self,
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是個複雜、混亂、不確定的自我，
16:28
and that is a very good thing.
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那是一件好事。
16:34
Why not value those
impurities and uncertainties?
impurities and uncertainties?
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2376
為什麼不珍惜這些
不純淨和不確定性？
不純淨和不確定性？
16:36
Maybe clinging to pure identities
is a sign of immaturity,
is a sign of immaturity,
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也許執著於純淨的身分
是不成熟的徵兆，
是不成熟的徵兆，
16:40
and ethnic, nationalist
and religious traditions are bad for you.
and religious traditions are bad for you.
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執著於種族、民族主義
和宗教傳統對你有害。
和宗教傳統對你有害。
16:43
Why not be skeptical
about every primordial origin claim
about every primordial origin claim
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為什麼不對每個以你原始出身之名
16:46
made on your behalf?
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所做出的區別問題提出質疑？
16:47
Why not reject the identity myths
that call on you to belong,
that call on you to belong,
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4680
為什麼不拒絕那些號召你
歸屬的那些身分迷思呢？
歸屬的那些身分迷思呢？
16:53
that politicians and community leaders,
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為什麼不拒絕政治、社區領袖，
16:56
so-called community leaders,
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那些所謂的社區領袖，
加諸於你的身分迷思呢？
16:58
place on you?
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16:59
If we don't need origin stories
and fixed identities,
and fixed identities,
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如果我們能放下出身來源
及身分認同的迷思，
及身分認同的迷思，
17:02
we can challenge ourselves
to think creatively
to think creatively
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我們就能挑戰自己去創意地思考，
17:05
about each other and our future.
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去想想彼此，想想我們的未來。
17:08
And here culture
always takes care of itself.
always takes care of itself.
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文化會有自己的出路。
17:11
I'm not worried about culture.
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我不擔心文化。
17:12
Cultures are creative, dynamic processes,
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3416
文化是創意的動態過程，
17:16
not imposed laws and boundaries.
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而不是強加於人的法律和界線。
17:19
This is Abu al-Walid Muhammad
ibn Ahmad ibn Rushd,
ibn Ahmad ibn Rushd,
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這位是伊本 · 魯世德，
17:23
a very senior Muslim judge and thinker
in Cordoba in the 12th century,
in Cordoba in the 12th century,
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他是十二世紀在哥多華的一位
資深穆斯林法官和思想家，
資深穆斯林法官和思想家，
17:27
and his writings were considered
deeply blasphemous, heretical and evil.
deeply blasphemous, heretical and evil.
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4137
他寫的東西被認為是極度
瀆神的、異教的、邪惡的。
瀆神的、異教的、邪惡的。
17:31
Long after he died,
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他死後很久，
17:33
followers of his work
were ruthlessly hunted down,
were ruthlessly hunted down,
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2376
他的作品的追隨者被無情地追捕、
17:35
banished and killed over several centuries
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2736
放逐、殺害，持續了好幾世紀。
17:38
by the most powerful religious institution
of the medieval period.
of the medieval period.
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4441
迫害者是中世紀最有權力的宗教機構
17:43
That institution was
the Roman Catholic Church.
the Roman Catholic Church.
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3520
羅馬天主教教堂。
17:48
Why?
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1496
為什麼？
17:50
Because ibn Rushd said
that something true in religion
that something true in religion
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因為伊本魯世德說，
宗教眼裡的真實
17:53
may conflict with something
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可能和你理智所認知的
世間真實有所衝突，
世間真實有所衝突，
17:54
that your reason
finds to be true on earth,
finds to be true on earth,
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3000
17:58
but the latter is still true.
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2480
但後者仍是真實的。
18:01
There are two distinct worlds of truth,
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有兩個不同的真實世界，
一個根據理智和證據，
另一個根據神學；
另一個根據神學；
18:03
one based on our reason and evidence,
and one that is divine,
and one that is divine,
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2896
18:06
and the state, political power, social law
are in the realm of reason.
are in the realm of reason.
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4896
而國家、政治權力
和社會法律屬於理智的範疇，
和社會法律屬於理智的範疇，
18:11
Religious life is a different realm.
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1936
信仰生活則在另一邊；
18:13
They should be kept separated.
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1736
兩個應該要被區分開來。
18:15
Social and political life
should be governed by our reason,
should be governed by our reason,
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3576
社會與政治應該要
由我們的理智來管理，
由我們的理智來管理，
18:18
not by religion.
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而非由信仰來管理。
18:20
And you can see why the church
was upset by his writings,
was upset by his writings,
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2696
不難看出為何教堂會
對他的著作感到氣憤，
對他的著作感到氣憤，
18:22
as indeed were some Muslims
during his lifetime,
during his lifetime,
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在他一生中有些穆斯林也是如此，
18:25
because he gives us
a strong statement of secularism
a strong statement of secularism
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因為他給了我們
政教分離的強烈聲明，
政教分離的強烈聲明，
18:30
of a kind which is normal in Europe today.
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這種聲明現今在歐洲就很正常。
18:32
Now, history plays many tricks on us.
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歷史經常戲弄我們，
18:34
It undermines our fixed truths
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它破壞了我們確切的真理
18:36
and what we believe
to be our culture and their culture.
to be our culture and their culture.
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2816
以及我們對我們的文化
和其他文化的認知。
和其他文化的認知。
18:39
Ibn Rushd, someone
who happens to be a Muslim,
who happens to be a Muslim,
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伊本魯世德剛好是個穆斯林，
18:41
is considered one of the key influences
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他被公認是在歐洲提出和傳播
18:43
in the introduction and spread
of secularism in Europe.
of secularism in Europe.
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政教分離論的關鍵影響人物之一。
18:48
So against religious, nationalist
and racial purists of all kinds,
and racial purists of all kinds,
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在與各種宗教、民族主義、
種族淨化主義相抵觸的情況下，
種族淨化主義相抵觸的情況下，
18:52
can you make his story a part of your own,
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你能否將他的故事
變成你的故事的一部份？
變成你的故事的一部份？
18:56
not because he happened to be a Muslim,
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1896
不是因為他剛好是穆斯林，
18:58
not because he happened to be an Arab,
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不是因為他剛好是阿拉伯人，
19:00
but because he was a human being
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1720
而是因為他是人類，
19:02
with some very good ideas
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他有一些很好的想法
19:04
that shook his world
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撼動了他的世界，
19:06
and ours.
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以及我們的世界。
19:08
Thank you.
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謝謝。
19:10
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Chetan Bhatt - Sociologist, human rights activistChetan Bhatt teaches and writes about the numerous dangers human rights face today from resurgent Far Right movements.
Why you should listen
Chetan Bhatt has published widely about the worldwide rise of racist and religious Far Right movements. He is interested in why the authoritarian ideas of these movements appeal to many groups and how understanding the nature of their ideas can help us challenge them effectively. He is currently working on several projects focused on violent Islamist, Hindu Right and white and ethnic supremacist movements, as well and the states and politicians that assist them in South Asia, the Middle East, Europe and the United States.
Bhatt is professor of sociology at the London School of Economics and Political Science in the UK, where he directs LSE Human Rights. Previously, he taught at Goldsmiths, University of London and the Universities of Essex and Southampton.
Chetan Bhatt | Speaker | TED.com