TEDxPSU
Jonathan Marks: In praise of conflict
Jonathan Marks: 政府应该与公司斗争，而不是与他们合作
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冲突是不好的；妥协，共识和合作是好的--这些是我们被灌输的思想。作为一名律师和生物学家的Jonathan Marks挑战了这个传统的观点，展示了当政府与企业合作时，如何破坏了公共卫生，人权问题和环境问题。重要的一点是，他及时提醒了人们，公共利益并不等同于公共基础。
Jonathan Marks - Bioethicist, lawyer
Jonathan Marks works at the intersections of ethics, law and policy -- writing and speaking about torture, obesity, fracking, health care and other pressing issues of our time. Full bio
Jonathan Marks works at the intersections of ethics, law and policy -- writing and speaking about torture, obesity, fracking, health care and other pressing issues of our time. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Twenty years ago,
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二十年前，
00:14
when I was a barrister
and human rights lawyer
and human rights lawyer
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当我是一名律师，
一名人权律师的时候，
一名人权律师的时候，
00:17
in full-time legal practice in London,
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在伦敦一家公司全职工作，
00:20
and the highest court in the land
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最高法院依然
在这栋大楼里召开，
在这栋大楼里召开，
00:22
still convened, some would say
by an accident of history,
by an accident of history,
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有人可能说是历史的巧合。
00:26
in this building here,
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00:28
I met a young man
who had just quit his job
who had just quit his job
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我遇到一位年轻人，
刚刚辞去他在英国外交部的工作。
00:31
in the British Foreign Office.
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00:33
When I asked him, "Why did you leave,"
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当我问他，“你为什么要辞职？”
00:36
he told me this story.
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他跟我说了这个故事。
00:38
He had gone to his boss
one morning and said,
one morning and said,
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一天早晨，他去找他的老板说，
00:41
"Let's do something
about human rights abuses in China."
about human rights abuses in China."
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“让我们为中国的人权问题
做点事情吧。”
做点事情吧。”
00:46
And his boss had replied,
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他老板回答，
“我们不能对中国侵犯人权问题
做任何事情，
做任何事情，
00:48
"We can't do anything
about human rights abuses in China
about human rights abuses in China
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00:50
because we have
trade relations with China."
trade relations with China."
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因为我们跟中国有贸易往来。”
所以我的这位朋友
就夹着尾巴离开了。
就夹着尾巴离开了。
00:54
So my friend went away
with his tail between his legs,
with his tail between his legs,
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00:57
and six months later,
he returned again to his boss,
he returned again to his boss,
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半年之后，他再去找他的老板，
01:01
and he said this time,
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他对老板说，
让我们为缅甸的人权问题
做点事情吧，
做点事情吧，
01:02
"Let's do something
about human rights in Burma,"
about human rights in Burma,"
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缅甸当时被叫做(Burma)这个名字。”
01:06
as it was then called.
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01:08
His boss once again paused
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他的老板又一次停住，
说，“哦，我们不能对缅甸人权问题
做任何事情，
做任何事情，
01:10
and said, "Oh, but we can't
do anything about human rights in Burma
do anything about human rights in Burma
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因为我们跟他们没有贸易关系。”
01:14
because we don't have
any trade relations with Burma."
any trade relations with Burma."
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（笑声）
01:18
(Laughter)
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就是那一刻，他知道自己该辞职了。
01:19
This was the moment
he knew he had to leave.
he knew he had to leave.
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这不仅仅是政府的虚伪促使了他，
01:22
It wasn't just the hypocrisy
that got to him.
that got to him.
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01:25
It was the unwillingness of his government
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而是他的政府不愿意与其他任何政府
在密切的商讨中
在密切的商讨中
01:28
to engage in conflict
with other governments,
with other governments,
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出现意见不合，产生争执，
01:31
in tense discussions,
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01:32
all the while, innocent people
were being harmed.
were being harmed.
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因此同时，无辜的人受到伤害。
01:37
We are constantly told
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我们一直被告知，
说冲突是不好的，
01:40
that conflict is bad
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01:42
that compromise is good;
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妥协是好的；
01:45
that conflict is bad
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冲突是不好的，
01:47
but consensus is good;
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但是共识是好的；
01:50
that conflict is bad
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冲突是不好的，
01:52
and collaboration is good.
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合作是好的。
01:56
But in my view,
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但是在我看来，
01:57
that's far too simple
a vision of the world.
a vision of the world.
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这对整个世界太一概而论了。
01:59
We cannot know
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我们并不能知道
冲突是不是不好的，
02:01
whether conflict is bad
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02:03
unless we know who is fighting,
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除非我们知道我们在与谁斗争，
02:06
why they are fighting
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为什么他们要斗争，
和他们怎么斗争的？
02:08
and how they are fighting.
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如果妥协会伤害到
不在谈判桌上的人，
不在谈判桌上的人，
02:10
And compromises can be thoroughly rotten
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02:14
if they harm people
who are not at the table,
who are not at the table,
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那它就会彻底的腐败，
那些脆弱的人们，
被剥夺选择权的人们，
被剥夺选择权的人们，
02:17
people who are vulnerable, disempowered,
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02:20
people whom we have
an obligation to protect.
an obligation to protect.
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那些我们有义务要保护的人们。
02:24
Now, you might be
somewhat skeptical of a lawyer
somewhat skeptical of a lawyer
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现在你可能对这个律师
说着冲突的好处
说着冲突的好处
02:27
arguing about the benefits of conflict
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和妥协的坏处有怀疑。
02:30
and creating problems for compromise,
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但是，我确实是一名合格的调解人，
02:33
but I did also qualify as a mediator,
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02:35
and these days, I spend my time
giving talks about ethics for free.
giving talks about ethics for free.
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这些天，我花时间来做
关于道德的免费演讲。
关于道德的免费演讲。
因此，我的银行经理提醒我，
我的经济状况在下滑。
我的经济状况在下滑。
02:39
So as my bank manager likes to remind me,
I'm downwardly mobile.
I'm downwardly mobile.
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02:44
But if you accept my argument,
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但是如果你同意我的提议，
02:47
it should change not just the way
we lead our personal lives,
we lead our personal lives,
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那它不仅仅可以改变
我们个人生活的方式，
我们个人生活的方式，
02:50
which I wish to put
to one side for the moment,
to one side for the moment,
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这一点我想暂时留在一边，
02:53
but it will change the way
we think about major problems
we think about major problems
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它还将改变我们对公共卫生和环境的
主要问题的思考方式。
主要问题的思考方式。
02:57
of public health and the environment.
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03:01
Let me explain.
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让我来解释一下，
03:04
Every middle schooler
in the United States,
in the United States,
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美国的每一位中学生，
包括我那12岁的女儿，
03:06
my 12-year-old daughter included,
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03:09
learns that there are
three branches of government,
three branches of government,
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知道政府有三个分支，
立法机关，行政机关和
司法机关。
司法机关。
03:13
the legislative, the executive
and the judicial branch.
and the judicial branch.
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03:17
James Madison wrote,
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詹姆斯·麦迪逊写过，
03:19
"If there is any principle
more sacred in our Constitution,
more sacred in our Constitution,
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“如果在我们的宪法中，
或者其他任何自由的宪法里，
或者其他任何自由的宪法里，
有一条最受尊敬的原则的话，
03:24
and indeed in any free constitution,
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比其他任何一项原则都重要的，
03:27
than any other,
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03:28
it is that which separates
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那就是
把立法、行政和司法分开的原则。”
03:31
the legislative, the executive
and the judicial powers."
and the judicial powers."
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03:36
Now, the framers were not just concerned
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现在，制宪者不仅仅是关心
权利的集中和执行。
03:39
about the concentration
and exercise of power.
and exercise of power.
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他们也理解影响力所带来的风险。
03:43
They also understood
the perils of influence.
the perils of influence.
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03:48
Judges cannot determine
the constitutionality of laws
the constitutionality of laws
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法官不能决定法律是否符合宪法，
如果他们参与制定这些法律的话。
03:53
if they participate in making those laws,
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也不可以为其他政府部门负责，
03:57
nor can they hold the other branches
of government accountable
of government accountable
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如果之间有合作关系，
04:01
if they collaborate with them
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04:03
or enter into close
relationships with them.
relationships with them.
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或者是跟他们产生密切关系的话。
04:07
The Constitution is,
as one famous scholar put it,
as one famous scholar put it,
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宪法是，用一位著名的学者的话说，
“引发斗争的请柬。”
04:11
"an invitation to struggle."
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04:14
And we the people are served
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这些政府分支，真正互相制衡时，
04:17
when those branches do, indeed,
struggle with each other.
struggle with each other.
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我们才是被服务的人。
04:23
Now, we recognize
the importance of struggle
the importance of struggle
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现在，我们了解了斗争的重要性，
04:26
not just in the public sector
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不仅仅是在政府各分支之间的
公共事务上，
04:29
between our branches of government.
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我们也知道在私营部门之间，
04:32
We also know it too in the private sector,
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斗争也很重要。
04:35
in relationships among corporations.
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04:39
Let's imagine that two American airlines
get together and agree
get together and agree
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让我们想象一下，
两个美国的航空公司联合起来，
两个美国的航空公司联合起来，
同意不把经济舱的票价
降到250美金以下。
降到250美金以下。
04:44
that they will not drop the price
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04:46
of their economy class airfares
below 250 dollars a ticket.
below 250 dollars a ticket.
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04:51
That is collaboration,
some would say collusion,
some would say collusion,
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这是合作，有人会说是勾结，
不是竞争，
04:55
not competition,
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04:56
and we the people are harmed
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我们是受害人。
因为我们要为此付更多的钱来买票。
04:59
because we pay more for our tickets.
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05:02
Imagine similarly
two airlines were to say,
two airlines were to say,
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想象一下类似的情况，
两家航空公司协议说，
两家航空公司协议说，
“航空公司A要飞
洛杉矶到芝加哥的航线，”
洛杉矶到芝加哥的航线，”
05:05
"Look, Airline A, we'll take
the route from LA to Chicago,"
the route from LA to Chicago,"
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航空公司B说，
“那我们飞芝加哥到华盛顿的航线，
“那我们飞芝加哥到华盛顿的航线，
05:10
and Airline B says, "We'll take
the route from Chicago to DC,
the route from Chicago to DC,
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05:13
and we won't compete."
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所以我们就不用竞争了。”
05:14
Once again, that's collaboration
or collusion instead of competition,
or collusion instead of competition,
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再说一次，这是合作或者勾结，
而不是竞争，
而不是竞争，
我们是受害人。
05:19
and we the people are harmed.
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05:23
So we understand
the importance of struggle
the importance of struggle
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当谈到政府分支之间的关系时，
我们理解斗争的重要性，
我们理解斗争的重要性，
05:29
when it comes to relationships
between branches of government,
between branches of government,
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这是公共部门方面。
05:35
the public sector.
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05:36
We also understand
the importance of conflict
the importance of conflict
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同样地，当谈到企业之间关系的时，
我们也理解冲突的重要性，
我们也理解冲突的重要性，
05:40
when it comes to relationships
among corporations,
among corporations,
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05:44
the private sector.
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这是私营部门方面。
但是被我们忽视的是
05:46
But where we have forgotten it
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公共部门和私营部门之间的关系。
05:48
is in the relationships
between the public and the private.
between the public and the private.
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全世界的政府与各个行业的公司
进行合作，
进行合作，
05:53
And governments all over the world
are collaborating with industry
are collaborating with industry
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来解决公共卫生和环境问题，
05:57
to solve problems of public health
and the environment,
and the environment,
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常常，合作的对象正是那些制造了
或加剧了问题的公司,
或加剧了问题的公司,
06:00
often collaborating
with the very corporations
with the very corporations
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06:03
that are creating or exacerbating
the problems they are trying to solve.
the problems they are trying to solve.
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这些问题正是政府想要解决的难题。
06:11
We are told that these relationships
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我们被告知说，
这种关系是互赢的关系。
06:14
are a win-win.
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06:17
But what if someone is losing out?
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但是如果其中一方输掉了呢？
06:22
Let me give you some examples.
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我来给你们举几个例子：
06:25
A United Nations agency
decided to address a serious problem:
decided to address a serious problem:
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联合国机构打算要解决
一个严重的问题，
一个严重的问题，
06:29
poor sanitation in schools in rural India.
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即在印度乡村地区
学校里的卫生问题。
学校里的卫生问题。
06:34
They did so not just in collaboration
with national and local governments
with national and local governments
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他们这么做不仅仅是要
与国家和当地的政府部门合作，
与国家和当地的政府部门合作，
也要与一家电视公司
06:38
but also with a television company
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和一家跨国企业汽水饮料公司合作。
06:40
and with a major
multinational soda company.
multinational soda company.
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06:45
In exchange for less
than one million dollars,
than one million dollars,
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为了换取不到一百万美金的利润，
这家公司得到了持续一个月的促销机会，
06:48
that corporation received the benefits
of a months-long promotional campaign
of a months-long promotional campaign
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包括十二小时的电视募捐，
06:53
including a 12-hour telethon
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06:55
all using the company's logo
and color scheme.
and color scheme.
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全部都用着这个公司的标志和
颜色搭配。
颜色搭配。
07:00
This was an arrangement
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这是安排好的协议。
07:02
which was totally understandable
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从公司的角度出发，
这可以理解。
07:05
from the corporation's point of view.
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07:07
It enhances the reputation of the company
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这提高企业声誉，
07:09
and it creates brand loyalty
for its products.
for its products.
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还使形成了产品忠诚度。
07:13
But in my view,
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但是依我来看，
07:15
this is profoundly problematic
for the intergovernmental agency,
for the intergovernmental agency,
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对于一家跨政府机构来说，
这里面有很严重的问题。
这里面有很严重的问题。
07:18
an agency that has a mission
to promote sustainable living.
to promote sustainable living.
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这个机构旨在发展可持续生存，
07:23
By increasing consumption
of sugar-sweetened beverages
of sugar-sweetened beverages
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通过提高大家对甜味饮料的消费，
由当地紧缺的水资源供应，
由塑料瓶灌起来的，
由塑料瓶灌起来的，
07:27
made from scarce local water supplies
and drunk out of plastic bottles
and drunk out of plastic bottles
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在这样一个已经被肥胖问题
困扰的国家，
困扰的国家，
07:31
in a country that is already
grappling with obesity,
grappling with obesity,
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07:34
this is neither sustainable
from a public health
from a public health
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从公共卫生角度来看，
这不是个可持续战略，
这不是个可持续战略，
而从环保角度来看，也是不对的。
07:37
nor an environmental point of view.
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07:40
And in order to solve
one public health problem,
one public health problem,
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为了解决一个公共卫生问题，
这个机构就为另一个问题
播下了种子。
播下了种子。
07:44
the agency is sowing the seeds
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07:46
of another.
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07:49
This is just one example
of dozens I discovered
of dozens I discovered
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我在为一本有关政府和企业之间关系
的书做研究，
的书做研究，
07:53
in researching a book on the relationships
between government and industry.
between government and industry.
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这只是我发现的许多问题之一。
07:58
I could also have told you
about the initiatives in parks
about the initiatives in parks
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我还可以告诉你一个提案，
有关伦敦和整个英国的公园，
有关伦敦和整个英国的公园，
08:02
in London and throughout Britain,
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他们涉及到同一家公司，
提倡大家锻炼，
提倡大家锻炼，
08:04
involving the same company,
promoting exercise,
promoting exercise,
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08:07
or indeed of the British government
creating voluntary pledges
creating voluntary pledges
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其实是英国政府在与
企业的合作关系中
企业的合作关系中
自愿提供了保证，
08:12
in partnership with industry
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08:14
instead of regulating industry.
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而不是监管企业。
这种合作和配合关系已经
在公共卫生问题中变成了一种模式，
在公共卫生问题中变成了一种模式，
08:17
These collaborations or partnerships
have become the paradigm in public health,
have become the paradigm in public health,
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08:23
and once again, they make sense
from the point of view of industry.
from the point of view of industry.
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再说一次，从企业角度来看，
这是合理的。
这是合理的。
这允许他们设计出
一种公共卫生问题的解决方法。
一种公共卫生问题的解决方法。
08:27
It allows them to frame
public health problems and their solutions
public health problems and their solutions
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这种方法对他们威胁最少，
08:30
in ways that are least threatening to,
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却对他们的商业利益有最大帮助。
08:32
most consonant with
their commercial interests.
their commercial interests.
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所以，肥胖变成了一个
08:35
So obesity becomes a problem
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由个人决定影响的问题，
08:38
of individual decision-making,
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受到个人行为影响的问题，
08:42
of personal behavior,
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个人的责任感和
个人缺少锻炼而导致的问题。
个人缺少锻炼而导致的问题。
08:44
personal responsibility
and lack of physical activity.
and lack of physical activity.
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08:48
It is not a problem,
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照这样看来，这完全不会是个
08:50
when framed this way,
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牵涉到跨国食品企业链的问题。
08:51
of a multinational food system
involving major corporations.
involving major corporations.
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再说一次，我并不责备企业。
08:55
And again, I don't blame industry.
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08:56
Industry naturally engages
in strategies of influence
in strategies of influence
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企业天生要扩大影响力，
来提升他们广告利益。
09:00
to promote its commercial interests.
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09:03
But governments have a responsibility
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但是政府有责任来制定对策，
09:06
to develop counterstrategies
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09:08
to protect us
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来保护我们，
09:10
and the common good.
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和公共利益。
09:14
The mistake that governments are making
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政府犯的错误，
09:18
when they collaborate in this way
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当他们用这种方式
与企业合作时，
09:21
with industry
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09:22
is that they conflate
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是他们混淆了了公共利益
09:25
the common good
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和共同点。
09:26
with common ground.
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09:29
When you collaborate with industry,
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当你与企业合作的时候，
你有必要把那些企业可能不同意的
会促进公共利益的事
会促进公共利益的事
09:31
you necessarily put off the table
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09:34
things that might promote the common good
to which industry will not agree.
to which industry will not agree.
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丢在一边。
企业不会同意加强监管，
09:38
Industry will not agree
to increased regulation
to increased regulation
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除非他们认为这样能让他们
避开更多的监管，
避开更多的监管，
09:41
unless it believes this will
stave off even more regulation
stave off even more regulation
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或者是可以淘汰掉市场上的
一些竞争者。
一些竞争者。
09:45
or perhaps knock some competitors
out of the market.
out of the market.
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公司也不会同意来做一些
特定的事情，
特定的事情，
09:49
Nor can companies agree
to do certain things,
to do certain things,
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09:52
for example raise the prices
of their unhealthy products,
of their unhealthy products,
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比如说提高他们不健康产品的价格，
因为那样会破坏
09:55
because that would violate
competition law,
competition law,
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我们已经建立的竞争法。
09:57
as we've established.
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10:00
So our governments should not confound
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所以我们的政府不应该
把公共利益和共同点混在一起，
10:03
the common good and common ground,
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10:06
especially when common ground
means reaching agreement with industry.
means reaching agreement with industry.
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尤其是当共同点意味着
与企业达成一致时。
与企业达成一致时。
10:12
I want to give you another example,
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我想再给你们举个例子，
10:14
moving from high-profile collaboration
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从高利润公司
到一些底层的东西，
10:16
to something that is below ground
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10:18
both literally and figuratively:
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从字面上和比喻上说都对：
10:22
the hydraulic fracturing of natural gas.
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天然气的水力压裂。
10:25
Imagine that you purchase a plot of land
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想象一下如果你买了一块地，
不知道这块地的开采权
已经被出售了。
已经被出售了。
10:29
not knowing the mineral rights
have been sold.
have been sold.
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10:31
This is before the fracking boom.
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这是发生在水力压裂爆发之前。
10:34
You build your dream home on that plot,
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你在那块地上建了你梦想的房子，
10:37
and shortly afterwards,
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不久之后，
10:39
you discover that a gas company
is building a well pad on your land.
is building a well pad on your land.
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你发现一家石油公司正在你的地上
建一个井场。
建一个井场。
10:45
That was the plight
of the Hallowich family.
of the Hallowich family.
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这是Hallowich一家遇到的困境。
10:49
Within a very short period of time,
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在很短的时间内，
他们开始抱怨头痛，
10:52
they began to complain of headaches,
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嗓子痛、眼睛痒，
10:55
of sore throats, of itchy eyes,
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10:58
in addition to the interference
of the noise, vibration
of the noise, vibration
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此外还有噪音的干扰、震动，
11:01
and the bright lights
from the flaring of natural gas.
from the flaring of natural gas.
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和燃烧天然气时发出的强光。
他们开始直言不讳的抱怨，
11:04
They were very vocal in their criticisms,
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11:07
and then they fell silent.
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然后他们就沉默了。
多亏了匹兹堡邮报和另外一个报纸，
这张图片就是出现在匹兹堡邮报，
这张图片就是出现在匹兹堡邮报，
11:10
And thanks to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette,
where this image appeared,
where this image appeared,
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11:13
and one other newspaper,
we discovered why they fell silent.
we discovered why they fell silent.
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我们发现了他们为啥沉默。
11:16
The newspapers went to the court and said,
"What happened to the Hallowiches?"
"What happened to the Hallowiches?"
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报社去法院问，
“Hallowiches一家人怎么了？”
“Hallowiches一家人怎么了？”
结果发现Hallowiches一家人跟
石油开采公司，
石油开采公司，
11:20
And it turned out the Hallowiches
had made a secret settlement
had made a secret settlement
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签了一个保密协议，
“要么接受、要么放弃”的协议。
“要么接受、要么放弃”的协议。
11:23
with the gas operators, and it was
a take-it-or-leave-it settlement.
a take-it-or-leave-it settlement.
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石油公司说，
11:27
The gas company said,
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11:28
you can have a six-figure sum
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你们可以接受一笔六位数的款项，
然后搬到别的地方开始新的生活，
11:31
to move elsewhere
and start your lives again,
and start your lives again,
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但是反过来，
11:33
but in return
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11:34
you must promise not to speak
of your experience with our company,
of your experience with our company,
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你们必须保证不透露
你与我们公司之间的事情，
你与我们公司之间的事情，
对水力压裂进行保密。
11:38
not to speak of your
experience with fracking,
experience with fracking,
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11:41
not to speak about the health consequences
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对此产生的健康危害进行保密，
这种健康问题
可能会在体检中检查出来。
可能会在体检中检查出来。
11:45
that might have been revealed
by a medical examination.
by a medical examination.
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11:49
Now, I do not blame
the Hallowiches for accepting
the Hallowiches for accepting
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我不是谴责Hallowiches一家人接受
这个“要么接受要么放弃”的协议，
11:52
a take-it-or-leave-it settlement
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然后开始他们的新生活。
11:55
and starting their lives elsewhere.
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而且我们能理解
11:57
And one can understand
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11:58
why the company would wish
to silence a squeaky wheel.
to silence a squeaky wheel.
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为什么公司希望达成一个静默协议。
我想指出的是立法和监管系统，
12:01
What I want to point the finger at
is the legal and regulatory system,
is the legal and regulatory system,
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允许这样一系统“静默”协议的存在，
12:05
a system in which there are
networks of agreements
networks of agreements
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就跟这个一样，
12:08
just like this one
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12:10
which serve to silence people
and seal off data points
and seal off data points
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用来让人们对此避而不谈，
并对公共卫生专家和
流行病专家们封锁了数据。
流行病专家们封锁了数据。
12:14
from public health experts
and epidemiologists,
and epidemiologists,
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12:17
a system in which regulators
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这个系统的监管者，
12:18
will even refrain
from issuing a violation notice
from issuing a violation notice
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甚至在一次污染事件中，
避免开出违规通知。
避免开出违规通知。
12:22
in the event of pollution
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12:23
if the landowner and the gas company
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如果土地所有人和石油公司
12:25
agree to settle.
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同意一致的话。
12:27
This is a system which isn't just
bad from a public health point of view;
bad from a public health point of view;
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这个体系不仅仅是从公共卫生的
角度来看是不好的，
角度来看是不好的，
它对当地的家庭来说也是一种危害，
12:31
it exposes hazards to local families
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而这些家庭还是全然不知。
12:34
who remain in the dark.
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12:39
Now, I have given you two examples
not because they are isolated examples.
not because they are isolated examples.
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现在我已经给了你们两个例子，
他们不仅仅是独立的案例。
他们不仅仅是独立的案例。
他们是这些系统性问题中的案例。
12:43
They are examples of a systemic problem.
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12:46
I could share some counterexamples,
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我可以再分享一些反例，
例如，
12:48
the case for example
of the public official
of the public official
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政府人员起诉药品公司，
12:51
who sues the pharmaceutical company
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因为药片公司掩盖了
12:54
for concealing the fact
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12:56
that its antidepressant increases
suicidal thoughts in adolescents.
suicidal thoughts in adolescents.
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抗抑郁药物提高了
青少年自杀倾向的事实。
青少年自杀倾向的事实。
我能告诉你关于监管部门
跟踪调查食品公司，
跟踪调查食品公司，
13:03
I can tell you about the regulator
who went after the food company
who went after the food company
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13:06
for exaggerating the purported
health benefits of its yogurt.
health benefits of its yogurt.
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因为食品公司夸大了
酸奶对健康的好处。
酸奶对健康的好处。
13:10
And I can tell you about the legislator
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我能告诉你，
立法机构不管对双方的重金游说
13:14
who despite heavy lobbying
directed at both sides of the aisle
directed at both sides of the aisle
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去推动环境保护。
13:18
pushes for environmental protections.
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13:23
These are isolated examples,
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这些都是独立的案例。
13:24
but they are beacons of light
in the darkness,
in the darkness,
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但他们是黑暗中的一点光明的信号，
他们能为我们指明道路。
13:29
and they can show us the way.
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13:34
I began by suggesting that sometimes
we need to engage in conflict.
we need to engage in conflict.
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我开始就建议，有时，
我们需要一些斗争，
我们需要一些斗争，
13:39
Governments should tussle with,
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政府应该参与斗争，
13:43
struggle with, at times engage
in direct conflict with corporations.
in direct conflict with corporations.
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同时与企业发生直接冲突。
13:49
This is not because governments
are inherently good
are inherently good
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这不是因为政府天生的就是好人，
企业天生就是恶魔。
13:54
and corporations are inherently evil.
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13:56
Each is capable of good or ill.
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双方都有可能是好或是坏。
14:01
But corporations understandably
act to promote their commercial interests,
act to promote their commercial interests,
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但是，可以理解，
公司会为促进他们的商业利润行动。
公司会为促进他们的商业利润行动。
14:07
and they do so either sometimes
undermining or promoting the common good.
undermining or promoting the common good.
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他们这样做要么有时会破坏，
要么会促进共同利益。
要么会促进共同利益。
但是，是政府的责任
14:13
But it is the responsibility
of governments
of governments
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来保护或者促进公共利益。
14:17
to protect and promote the common good.
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14:20
And we should insist
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我们应该坚持
政府应该为此做斗争。
14:23
that they fight to do so.
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14:26
This is because governments
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因为政府
是公共卫生的守护人；
14:29
are the guardians
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14:31
of public health;
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14:33
governments are the guardians
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政府是环境的守护人。
14:36
of the environment;
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14:38
and it is governments
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政府是我们公共利益最本质部分的
守护人。
守护人。
14:40
that are guardians
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14:41
of these essential parts
of our common good.
of our common good.
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14:47
Thank you.
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谢谢。
14:48
(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jonathan Marks - Bioethicist, lawyerJonathan Marks works at the intersections of ethics, law and policy -- writing and speaking about torture, obesity, fracking, health care and other pressing issues of our time.
Why you should listen
After studying law at Oxford University, Jonathan Marks qualified as a barrister and mediator, and he spent a decade in full-time practice in London. He became an expert on human rights, working on cases about torture (the Pinochet case), the protection of privacy and personal data, and the regulation of food, drugs and the environment.
The Greenwall Fellowship in Bioethics and Health Policy at Johns Hopkins and Georgetown Universities led to his current appointment as Director of the Bioethics Program at Penn State University, where he is also affiliated with the Rock Ethics Institute, Penn State Law and the School of International Affairs. He remains an academic member of Matrix, a London barristers' chambers with offices in Geneva.
Marks is passionate about teaching and lecturing, as his TED talk, and an article in the New York Times both attest. The talk offers a preview of his book manuscript, The Perils of Partnership. It also draws on research he conducted during his six-year affiliation with the Edmond J. Safra Center for Ethics at Harvard and during residencies at the Hastings Center and at the Brocher Foundation in Geneva.
Learn more about Marks's ideas from several articles, essays, and op-eds here.
Jonathan Marks | Speaker | TED.com