TEDGlobal 2010
Julian Assange: Why the world needs WikiLeaks
Julian Asanž: Zašto svijetu treba VikiLiks
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Kontroverzna internetska stranica VikiLiks sakuplja i objavljuje visoko povjerljive dokumente i video snimke. Osnivač Julian Asanž, kojeg navodno traži Američka vlada zbog ispitivanja, razgovara sa TED-ovim Krisom Andersonom o tome kako stranica funkcioniše, šta je sve postignuto, i o tome šta ga pokreće. Intervju sadrži video snimke nedavnog Američkog vazdušnog napada u Bagdadu.
Julian Assange - Whistleblower
Internet activist Julian Assange serves as spokesperson for WikiLeaks, a controversial, volunteer-driven website that publishes and comments on leaked documents alleging government and corporate misconduct. Full bio
Internet activist Julian Assange serves as spokesperson for WikiLeaks, a controversial, volunteer-driven website that publishes and comments on leaked documents alleging government and corporate misconduct. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
Chris Anderson: Julian, welcome.
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Kris Anderson: Julian, dobrodošao.
00:17
It's been reported that WikiLeaks, your baby,
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Došli smo do saznanja da je VikiLiks, vaše djelo,
00:19
has, in the last few years
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u zadnjih nekoliko godina
00:21
has released more classified documents
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objavio više povjerljivih dokumenata
00:24
than the rest of the world's media combined.
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nego ostatak svijetskih medija zajedno.
00:26
Can that possibly be true?
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Da li je to zaista moguće ?
00:28
Julian Assange: Yeah, can it possibly be true?
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Julian Asanž: Da, da li je to zaista moguće ?
00:30
It's a worry -- isn't it? -- that the rest of the world's media
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To je zabrinjavajuće -- zar ne ? -- da ostatak svjetskih medija
00:33
is doing such a bad job
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radi tako loš posao
00:35
that a little group of activists
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da mala grupa aktivista
00:37
is able to release more
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je u mogućnosti da objavi više
00:39
of that type of information
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te vrste informacija
00:41
than the rest of the world press combined.
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nego ostatak svijetske štampe zajedno.
00:43
CA: How does it work?
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KA: Kako to funkcioniše ?
00:45
How do people release the documents?
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Kako ljudi objavljuju te dokumente ?
00:48
And how do you secure their privacy?
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I na koji način čuvate njihovu privatnost ?
00:51
JA: So these are -- as far as we can tell --
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JA: Postoje -- onoliko koliko mi možemo reći --
00:53
classical whistleblowers,
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klasični zviždači.
00:55
and we have a number of ways for them
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A mi posjedujemo više načina dostupnim njima
00:57
to get information to us.
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za dostavljanje informacija.
00:59
So we use this state-of-the-art encryption
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Tako što koristimo najusavršenije šifrovanje
01:01
to bounce stuff around the Internet, to hide trails,
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da prebacimo stvari preko interneta, da sakrijemo tragove,
01:03
pass it through legal jurisdictions
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provučemo ih kroz pravne nadležnosti
01:05
like Sweden and Belgium
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kao Švedska i Belgija
01:08
to enact those legal protections.
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da sprovedemo te pravne zaštite.
01:12
We get information in the mail,
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Mi te informacije dobivamo poštom,
01:14
the regular postal mail,
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običnom poštom,
01:17
encrypted or not,
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šifrovane ili ne,
01:19
vet it like a regular news organization, format it --
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pregledamo ih kao obična novinarska kuća, presložimo --
01:22
which is sometimes something that's quite hard to do,
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što je ponekad to nešto što je teško za uraditi,
01:25
when you're talking about
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kada govorite o
01:27
giant databases of information --
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ogromnim bazama informacija --
01:29
release it to the public
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objavimo to u javnosti
01:31
and then defend ourselves
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i onda se branimo
01:33
against the inevitable legal and political attacks.
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od neizbježnih pravnih i političkih napada.
01:36
CA: So you make an effort to ensure
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KA: Znači vi se trudite da osigurate
01:38
the documents are legitimate,
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da su dokumenti legitimni.
01:40
but you actually
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Ali vi ustvari
01:42
almost never know who the identity of the source is?
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skoro nikad ne znate pravi identitet izvora informacija.
01:45
JA: That's right, yeah. Very rarely do we ever know,
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JA: To je tačno, da. Vrlo rijetko mi ikad saznamo.
01:49
and if we find out at some stage
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I onda kada saznamo u tom trenutku
01:52
then we destroy that information as soon as possible.
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mi uništimo tu informaciju što je prije moguće.
01:55
(Phone ring) God damn it.
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( Telefon zvoni ) Do vraga.
01:57
(Laughter)
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( Smijeh )
02:01
CA: I think that's the CIA asking what the code is
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KA: Ja mislim da to CIA želi znati koja je šifra
02:03
for a TED membership.
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za TED članstvo.
02:05
(Laughter)
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( Smijeh )
02:08
So let's take [an] example, actually.
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Hajmo uzeti za primjer, ustvari.
02:10
This is something
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To je nešto
02:12
you leaked a few years ago.
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što ste objavili prije nekoliko godina.
02:14
If we can have this document up ...
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Ako možete prikazati ovaj dokumenat ...
02:16
So this was a story in Kenya a few years ago.
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Znači ovo je bila priča u Keniji prije nekoliko godina.
02:18
Can you tell us what you leaked and what happened?
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Možete li reći šta ste to objavili i šta se desilo ?
02:21
JA: So this is the Kroll Report.
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JA: To je ustvari Krolski izvještaj.
02:23
This was a secret intelligence report
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To je bio izvještaj tajne obavještajne službe
02:26
commissioned by the Kenyan government
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naručen od strane Kenijske vlade
02:28
after its election in 2004.
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nakon izbora 2004.
02:31
Prior to 2004, Kenya was ruled
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Prije 2004, Kenijom je upravljao
02:33
by Daniel arap Moi
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Danijel arap Moi
02:35
for about 18 years.
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oko 18 godina.
02:37
He was a soft dictator of Kenya.
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On je bio blagi diktator u Keniji.
02:40
And when Kibaki got into power --
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I onda kada je Kibaki došao na vlast --
02:42
through a coalition of forces that were trying
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kroz koaliciju snaga koje su pokušavale
02:44
to clean up corruption in Kenya --
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da počiste korupciju u Keniji --
02:46
they commissioned this report,
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naručili su ovaj izvještaj,
02:48
spent about two million pounds
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potrošili su oko dva miliona funti
02:50
on this and an associated report.
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na ovaj i još jedan izvještaj.
02:52
And then the government sat on it
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A onda je vlada to skrivala
02:55
and used it for political leverage on Moi,
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i iskoristila to kao političku prednost nad Moiem,
02:57
who was the richest man --
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koji je bio najbogatiji čovjek --
02:59
still is the richest man -- in Kenya.
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i još uvijek je najbogatiji čovjek -- u Keniji.
03:02
It's the Holy Grail of Kenyan journalism.
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To je Sveti Gral Kenijskog novinarstva.
03:05
So I went there in 2007,
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Otišao sam tamo 2007 godine,
03:08
and we managed to get hold of this
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i uspjeli smo doći do ovoga
03:10
just prior to the election --
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pred same izbore --
03:12
the national election, December 28.
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nacionalne izbore, 28. Decembra.
03:17
When we released that report,
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Kada smo objavili taj izvještaj,
03:20
we did so three days after the new president, Kibaki,
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učinili smo to tri dana nakon što je novi predsjednik, Kibaki,
03:23
had decided to pal up with
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odlučio da se udruži sa
03:25
the man that he was going to clean out,
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čovjekom kojeg je želio da se riješi,
03:27
Daniel arap Moi,
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Danijelom arap Moiem.
03:29
so this report then
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Tako je ovaj izvještaj
03:32
became a dead albatross
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postao kamen
03:34
around President Kibaki's neck.
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oko predsjednikovog vrata.
03:38
CA: And -- I mean, to cut a long story short --
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KA: I -- da skratimo ovu priču --
03:41
word of the report leaked into Kenya,
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došlo je do saznanja o izvještaju u Keniji,
03:44
not from the official media, but indirectly,
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ne od službenih medija, već neposredno.
03:47
and in your opinion, it actually shifted the election.
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I po vašem mišljenju, to je promjenilo izbore.
03:50
JA: Yeah. So this became front page of the Guardian
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JA: Da. To je postala naslovna strana Gardijana
03:53
and was then printed in all the surrounding countries of Kenya,
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i tada je odštampano u svim susjednim zemljama Kenije,
03:56
in Tanzanian and South African press.
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u Tanzanijskoj i Južno Afričkoj štampi.
03:59
And so it came in from the outside.
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A došlo je izvana.
04:01
And that, after a couple of days,
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I to je, nakon nekoliko dana,
04:03
made the Kenyan press feel safe to talk about it.
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učinilo da se Kenijsko novinarstvo osjeća slobodno da priča o tome.
04:05
And it ran for 20 nights straight on Kenyan TV,
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A prikazivalo se ravno 20 noći na Kenijskoj Televiziji,
04:08
shifted the vote by 10 percent,
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što je promjenilo izbore za 10 procenata,
04:11
according to a Kenyan intelligence report,
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prema izvještaju Kenijske obavještajne službe,
04:13
which changed the result of the election.
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što je potpuno promjenilo rezultate izbora.
04:15
CA: Wow, so your leak
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KA: Opa, znači vaše objavljivanje
04:17
really substantially changed the world?
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je zaista uveliko promjenilo svijet ?
04:19
JA: Yep.
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JA: Da.
04:21
(Applause)
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( Aplauz )
04:25
CA: Here's -- We're going to just show
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KA: Ovdje -- Mi ćemo da pokazemo
04:27
a short clip from this
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kratki isječak iz ovog
04:30
Baghdad airstrike video.
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snimka vazdušnog napada u Bagdadu.
04:32
The video itself is longer,
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Čitav snimak je duži.
04:34
but here's a short clip.
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ali ovo je kratki isječak.
04:36
This is -- this is intense material, I should warn you.
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Ovo je -- osjetljiv materijal, da vas upozorim.
04:39
Radio: ... just fuckin', once you get on 'em just open 'em up.
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Radio: ... samo jebeno, kad ih naciljaš otvori vatru.
04:42
I see your element, uh, got about four Humvees, uh, out along ...
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Vidim vaš element, uh imam oko četiri Humvija, uh tamo pored ...
04:46
You're clear. All right. Firing.
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Čisto je. U redu. Pucam.
04:49
Let me know when you've got them. Let's shoot.
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Javite mi kad ih pogodite. Pucajmo.
04:52
Light 'em all up.
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Zapalite ih sviju.
04:54
C'mon, fire!
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Hajde, otvori vatru!
04:56
(Machine gun fire)
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( pucnjava iz oružja )
04:59
Keep shoot 'n. Keep shoot 'n.
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Nastavite da pucate. Nastavite da pucate.
05:02
(Machine gun fire)
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( pucnjava iz oružja )
05:05
Keep shoot 'n.
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Nastavite da pucate.
05:08
Hotel ... Bushmaster Two-Six, Bushmaster Two-Six,
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Hotel... Bušmaster 2-6, Bušmaster 2-6,
05:10
we need to move, time now!
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moramo da se pokrenemo, sada!
05:12
All right, we just engaged all eight individuals.
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Uredu je, sada smo naciljali svih osam osoba.
05:15
Yeah, we see two birds [helicopters], and we're still firing.
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Da, vidimo dvije ptice ( helikopteri ), i još uvijek pucamo.
05:18
Roger. I got 'em.
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Prijem. Imam ih.
05:20
Two-Six, this is Two-Six, we're mobile.
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2 - 6, ovo je 2 - 6, mi smo u pokretu.
05:22
Oops, I'm sorry. What was going on?
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Ups, izvinjavam se. Šta se dešavalo tamo ?
05:24
God damn it, Kyle. All right, hahaha. I hit 'em.
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Do vraga, Kajl. U redu, hahaha. Pogodio sam ih.
05:29
CA: So, what was the impact of that?
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KA: Onda, kakav je bio uticaj toga ?
05:32
JA: The impact on the people who worked on it
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JA: Uticaj na ljude koji su radili na tome
05:35
was severe.
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bio je ogroman.
05:37
We ended up sending two people to Baghdad
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Mi smo onda poslali dvoje ljudi u Bagdad
05:39
to further research that story.
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da detaljnije istraže tu priču.
05:41
So this is just the first of three attacks
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To je samo prvi od tri napada
05:44
that occurred in that scene.
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koji se desio u toj sceni.
05:46
CA: So, I mean, 11 people died in that attack, right,
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KA: Znači li to da je 11 ljudi poginulo u tom napadu,
05:48
including two Reuters employees?
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uključujući dva Rojtersova radnika ?
05:50
JA: Yeah. Two Reuters employees,
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JA: Da. Dva Rojtersova radnika,
05:52
two young children were wounded.
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i dva mala dijeteta su bila ranjena.
05:55
There were between 18 and 26 people killed all together.
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Tamo je ukupno poginulo izmedju 18 i 26 ljudi.
05:58
CA: And releasing this caused
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KA: I objavljivanje ovoga je prouzrokovalo
06:00
widespread outrage.
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ogroman bijes posvuda.
06:02
What was the key element of this
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Koji je bio ključni faktor svega ovoga
06:04
that actually caused the outrage, do you think?
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što je ustvari prouzrokovalo sav taj bijes, šta vi mislite ?
06:07
JA: I don't know. I guess people can see
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JA: Neznam, pretpostavljam da ljudi mogu vidjeti
06:09
the gross disparity in force.
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ogromno neslaganje u sili.
06:12
You have guys walking in a relaxed way down the street,
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Imate ljude koji opušteno hodaju ulicom,
06:14
and then an Apache helicopter sitting up at one kilometer
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a onda Apač helikopter udaljen jedan kilometar
06:17
firing 30-millimeter cannon shells
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ispaljuje 30-milimetarske rakete
06:19
on everyone --
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po svima --
06:21
looking for any excuse to do so --
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tražeći bilo kakav izgovor za to --
06:24
and killing people rescuing the wounded.
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i ubija ljude koji spašavaju ranjene.
06:26
And there was two journalists involved that clearly weren't insurgents
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I tu su bila upletena dva novinara koji očigledno nisu bili pobunjenici
06:29
because that's their full-time job.
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jer to je njihov svakodnevni posao.
06:33
CA: I mean, there's been this U.S. intelligence analyst,
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KA: Postoji, jedan analitičar Američke obavještajne službe,
06:36
Bradley Manning, arrested,
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Bradli Maning, koji je uhapšen.
06:38
and it's alleged that he confessed in a chat room
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I on je navodno priznao u " chat " sobi
06:41
to have leaked this video to you,
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da vam je dostavio ovaj snimak,
06:44
along with 280,000
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zajedno sa 280 000
06:46
classified U.S. embassy cables.
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povjerljivih telegrama Američke ambasade.
06:48
I mean, did he?
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Mislim, da li je ?
06:51
JA: We have denied receiving those cables.
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JA: Pa zapravo, mi smo porekli primanje tih telegrama.
06:53
He has been charged,
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On je optužen,
06:55
about five days ago,
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prije nekih pet dana,
06:57
with obtaining 150,000 cables
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za posjedovanje 150 000 telegrama
07:00
and releasing 50.
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i objavljivanje 50.
07:02
Now, we had released,
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Mi smo objavili
07:05
early in the year,
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početkom ove godine
07:07
a cable from the Reykjavik U.S. embassy,
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telegram iz Američke ambasade u Reykjaviku.
07:11
but this is not necessarily connected.
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Ali to ne mora biti povezano.
07:13
I mean, I was a known visitor of that embassy.
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Ja sam bio poznat posjetilac te ambasade.
07:15
CA: I mean, if you did receive thousands
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KA: Mislim, ako ste primili na hiljade
07:17
of U.S. embassy diplomatic cables ...
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diplomatskih telegrama Američke ambasade...
07:20
JA: We would have released them. (CA: You would?)
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JA: Mi bismo ih objavili. ( KA: Biste ? )
07:22
JA: Yeah. (CA: Because?)
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JA: Da. ( KA: Zašto ? )
07:25
JA: Well, because these sort of things
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JA: Zbog toga što takve stvari
07:27
reveal what the true state
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otkriju pravu istinu
07:30
of, say,
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recimo,
07:32
Arab governments are like,
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o Arapskim vladama,
07:34
the true human-rights abuses in those governments.
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istinske povrede ljudskih prava u tim vladama.
07:37
If you look at declassified cables,
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Ako pogledate telegrame koji su otkriveni,
07:39
that's the sort of material that's there.
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to je taj materijal koji se tamo nalazi.
07:41
CA: So let's talk a little more broadly about this.
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KA: Hajde da pričamo malo opširnije o tome.
07:43
I mean, in general, what's your philosophy?
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Uopšteno, kakva je vaša filozofija ?
07:45
Why is it right
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Zašto je u redu
07:47
to encourage leaking of secret information?
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ohrabrivanje objave tajnih informacija ?
07:51
JA: Well, there's a question as to what sort of information is important in the world,
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JA: Pa, postoji pitanje koja vrsta informacija je važna u svijetu,
07:54
what sort of information
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i koja vrsta informacija
07:56
can achieve reform.
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može donijeti promjenu.
07:58
And there's a lot of information.
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A postoji mnogo informacija.
08:00
So information that organizations
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Znači informacije za koje organizacije
08:02
are spending economic effort into concealing,
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troše ekonomske napore da ih sakriju,
08:05
that's a really good signal
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su vrlo dobar znak
08:07
that when the information gets out,
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da kada te informacije procure,
08:09
there's a hope of it doing some good --
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postoji nada da se napravi nešto dobro.
08:11
because the organizations that know it best,
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Jer organizacije koje ih poznaju najbolje,
08:13
that know it from the inside out,
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a poznaju ih izvana i iznutra,
08:15
are spending work to conceal it.
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troše trud da ih sakriju.
08:18
And that's what we've found in practice,
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A to je ono što smo vidjeli u praksi.
08:20
and that's what the history of journalism is.
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I to je historija novinarstva.
08:23
CA: But are there risks with that,
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KA: Dali postoje rizici s time,
08:26
either to the individuals concerned
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bilo za pojedince koji su umiješani u to
08:29
or indeed to society at large,
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ili za društvo u cijelini,
08:31
where leaking can actually have
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gdje objavljivanje zapravo može imati
08:33
an unintended consequence?
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nenamjerne posljedice ?
08:35
JA: Not that we have seen with anything we have released.
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JA: Mi to nismo primjetili u vezi sa bilo čim što smo objavili.
08:37
I mean, we have a harm immunization policy.
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Pošto mi imamo politiku imunizacije štete.
08:39
We have a way of dealing with information
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Imamo način na koji radimo sa informacijama
08:41
that has sort of personal --
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koje posjeduju neku vrstu ličnih
08:43
personally identifying information in it.
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identifikacionih informacija u sebi.
08:46
But there are legitimate secrets --
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Ali postoje legitimne tajne --
08:49
you know, your records with your doctor;
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znate, vaš zdravstveni karton:
08:52
that's a legitimate secret --
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to je legitimna tajna.
08:54
but we deal with whistleblowers that are coming forward
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Ali mi se susrećemo sa zviždačima koji nam dolaze
08:56
that are really sort of well-motivated.
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a koji su vrlo dobro motivisani.
08:59
CA: So they are well-motivated.
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KA: Znači oni jesu dobro motivisani.
09:01
And what would you say to, for example,
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A šta biste rekli, na primjer,
09:03
the, you know, the parent of someone
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roditelju nekoga --
09:06
whose son is out serving the U.S. military,
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čiji sin služi Američku vojsku,
09:09
and he says, "You know what,
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i on vam kaže, " Znate šta,
09:11
you've put up something that someone had an incentive to put out.
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objavili ste nešto za šta je neko imao inicijativu da to objavi.
09:13
It shows a U.S. soldier laughing
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To pokazuje američkog vojnika kako se smije
09:15
at people dying.
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ljudima koji umiru.
09:17
That gives the impression, has given the impression,
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To daje utisak -- upravo je dalo utisak
09:19
to millions of people around the world
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milionima ljudi u svijetu
09:21
that U.S. soldiers are inhuman people.
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da su američki vojnici nehumani.
09:23
Actually, they're not. My son isn't. How dare you?"
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Ustvari, oni to nisu. Moj sin nije. Kako se usudjujete ?"
09:25
What would you say to that?
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Šta biste vi rekli na to ?
09:27
JA: Yeah, we do get a lot of that.
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JA: Da, imamo dosta i toga.
09:29
But remember, the people in Baghdad,
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Ali znajte, ljudi u Bagdadu,
09:31
the people in Iraq, the people in Afghanistan --
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ljudi u Iraku, ljudi u Afganistanu --
09:34
they don't need to see the video;
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oni ne trebaju da vide taj snimak:
09:36
they see it every day.
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oni to vide svaki dan.
09:38
So it's not going to change their opinion. It's not going to change their perception.
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Znači to neće promjeniti njihovo mišljenje. To neće promjeniti njihovu percepciju.
09:41
That's what they see every day.
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To je ono što oni vide svaki dan.
09:43
It will change the perception and opinion
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To će promjeniti percepciju i mišljenje
09:46
of the people who are paying for it all,
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ljudi koji za sve to plaćaju.
09:48
and that's our hope.
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I tome se mi nadamo.
09:51
CA: So you found a way to shine light
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KA: Znači pronašli ste način da osvijetlite
09:54
into what you see
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ono što vidite
09:57
as these sort of dark secrets in companies and in government.
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kao vrstu mračnih tajni u kompanijama i vladama.
10:01
Light is good.
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Svijetlo je dobro.
10:03
But do you see any irony in the fact that,
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Ali da li vi vidite ironiju u činjenici da,
10:05
in order for you to shine that light,
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da biste osvijetlili s tim svijetlom,
10:07
you have to, yourself,
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sami morate
10:09
create secrecy around your sources?
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stvoriti tajnovitost vaših izvora ?
10:12
JA: Not really. I mean, we don't have
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JA: Ne sasvim. Mi nemamo
10:15
any WikiLeaks dissidents yet.
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još uvijek bilo kakve " dizidente" VikiLiksa.
10:19
We don't have sources who are dissidents on other sources.
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Mi nemamo izvore koji se ne slažu s drugim izvorima.
10:23
Should they come forward, that would be a tricky situation for us,
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Ako bi oni istupili, bila bi to nezgodna situacija za nas.
10:26
but we're presumably acting in such a way
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Ali mi po svoj prilici radimo na takav način
10:29
that people feel
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da se ljudi osjećaju
10:31
morally compelled
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moralno primoranim
10:33
to continue our mission, not to screw it up.
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da nastave našu misiju, a ne da je zafrknu.
10:37
CA: I'd actually be interested, just based on what we've heard so far --
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KA: Interesuje me, na osnovu svega što smo čuli do sada --
10:40
I'm curious as to the opinion in the TED audience.
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zanima me mišljenje TED publike.
10:45
You know, there might be a couple of views
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Pošto znate, možda postoji par mišljenja
10:47
of WikiLeaks and of Julian.
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o VikiLiks-u i o Julijanu.
10:49
You know, hero -- people's hero --
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Znate već, heroj -- narodni heroj --
10:52
bringing this important light.
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unosi ovo vazno svijetlo.
10:55
Dangerous troublemaker.
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Opasni smutljivac.
10:58
Who's got the hero view?
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Ko misli da je heroj ?
11:02
Who's got the dangerous troublemaker view?
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Ko misli da je opasni smutljivac ?
11:06
JA: Oh, come on. There must be some.
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JA: Ma hajde. Mora biti neko.
11:09
CA: It's a soft crowd, Julian, a soft crowd.
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KA: To je blaga publika, Julijane, blaga publika.
11:11
We have to try better. Let's show them another example.
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Moramo pokušati bolje. Hajde da im pokažemo drugi primjer.
11:13
Now here's something that you haven't yet leaked,
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Ovdje je nešto što još niste objavili,
11:16
but I think for TED you are.
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ali objavljujete za TED.
11:19
I mean it's an intriguing story that's just happened, right?
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Mislim to je intrigantna priča koja se upravo desila, tačno ?
11:21
What is this?
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O čemu se radi ?
11:23
JA: So this is a sample of what we do
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JA: Ovo je primjer onoga što mi radimo
11:25
sort of every day.
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skoro svaki dan.
11:27
So late last year -- in November last year --
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Znači pred kraj prošle godine -- u novembru prošle godine --
11:30
there was a series of well blowouts
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desilo se niz eksplozija na bušotinama
11:32
in Albania,
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u Albaniji
11:34
like the well blowout in the Gulf of Mexico,
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kao ona u Meksičkom zaljevu,
11:37
but not quite as big.
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ali ne tako velike.
11:39
And we got a report --
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I dobili smo izvještaj --
11:42
a sort of engineering analysis into what happened --
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vrstu inženjerske analize o tome šta se desilo --
11:45
saying that, in fact, security guards
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koji govori da su pripadnici obezbjedjenja
11:48
from some rival, various competing oil firms
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nekih suparničkih naftnih kompanija
11:51
had, in fact, parked trucks there and blown them up.
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ustvari parkirali kamione tamo i onda ih digli u zrak.
11:55
And part of the Albanian government was in this, etc., etc.
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I dio albanske vlade je bio umješan, itd., itd.
11:59
And the engineering report
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A inženjerski izvještaj
12:00
had nothing on the top of it,
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nema nikakvo uzglavlje.
12:02
so it was an extremely difficult document for us.
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Tako da je to bio jako težak dokument za nas.
12:04
We couldn't verify it because we didn't know
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Nismo mogli da ga verifikujemo jer nismo znali
12:06
who wrote it and knew what it was about.
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ko ga je napisao a znali smo o čemu je.
12:08
So we were kind of skeptical that maybe it was
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Tako da smo bili skeptični misleći da se to
12:10
a competing oil firm just sort of playing the issue up.
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neka suparnička naftna kompanija poigrava sa tim problemom.
12:12
So under that basis, we put it out and said,
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Pod tim okolnostima, objavili smo to i rekli,
12:14
"Look, we're skeptical about this thing.
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" Gledajte, mi smo skeptični u vezi ovoga.
12:16
We don't know, but what can we do?
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Ne znamo, ali šta možemo ?
12:18
The material looks good, it feels right,
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Materijal izgleda dobro, osjećaj je dobar,
12:20
but we just can't verify it."
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ali mi jednostavno ne možemo to provjeriti. "
12:22
And we then got a letter
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A onda smo primili pismo
12:25
just this week
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baš ove sedmice
12:28
from the company who wrote it,
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od kompanije koja ga je napisala,
12:31
wanting to track down the source --
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želeći da otkrije izvor --
12:34
(Laughter)
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( Smijeh )
12:38
saying, "Hey, we want to track down the source."
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u kojem piše, " Hej, mi želimo da otkrijemo izvor. "
12:41
And we were like, "Oh, tell us more.
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A mi smo rekli, " O recite nam nešto više.
12:43
What document is it, precisely, you're talking about?
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O kakvom dokumentu vi govorite tačno ?
12:46
Can you show that you had legal authority over that document?
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Možete li dokazati da vi posjedujete taj dokumenat ?
12:49
Is it really yours?"
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Da li je on stvarno vaš ?"
12:51
So they sent us this screen shot
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Oni su nam onda poslali ovaj snimak ekrana
12:54
with the author
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sa autorom
12:56
in the Microsoft Word ID.
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u formatu " Microsoft Word-a "
13:01
Yeah.
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Da.
13:03
(Applause)
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( Aplauz )
13:08
That's happened quite a lot though.
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To se dešavalo mnogo puta.
13:10
This is like one of our methods
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To je jedna od naših metoda
13:12
of identifying, of verifying, what a material is,
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identifikovanja -- provjeravanja materijala,
13:15
is to try and get these guys to write letters.
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to što pokušavamo da nagovorimo te ljude da pišu pisma.
13:17
CA: Yeah. Have you had information
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KA: Da. Da li ste imali informacije
13:20
from inside BP?
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unutar BP-a ?
13:22
JA: Yeah, we have a lot, but I mean, at the moment,
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JA: Da, imamo mnogo, ali mislim, u ovom trenutku,
13:25
we are undergoing a sort of serious fundraising and engineering effort.
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ulažemo velik trud u sakupljanju novčanih sredstava i u izgradnju.
13:28
So our publication rate
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Tako da je stepen našeg objavljivanja
13:30
over the past few months
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u zadnjih nekoliko mjeseci
13:32
has been sort of minimized
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sveden na minimum
13:34
while we're re-engineering our back systems
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dok mi preuredjujemo naše pozadinske sisteme
13:37
for the phenomenal public interest that we have.
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za izvanredno zanimanje javnosti koje mi imamo.
13:40
That's a problem.
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To je problem.
13:42
I mean, like any sort of growing startup organization,
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Kao svaka početna organizacija koja raste,
13:45
we are sort of overwhelmed
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mi smo oduševljeni
13:47
by our growth,
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našim rastom.
13:49
and that means we're getting enormous quantity
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A to znači da dobivamo ogomnu količinu
13:51
of whistleblower disclosures
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informacija od strane zviždača
13:53
of a very high caliber
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vrlo visokog kalibra,
13:55
but don't have enough people to actually
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ali nemamo dovoljno ljudi da ustvari
13:57
process and vet this information.
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procesiramo i pregledamo te informacije.
13:59
CA: So that's the key bottleneck,
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KA: Znači to je glavni problem,
14:01
basically journalistic volunteers
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uglavnom novinari volonteri
14:03
and/or the funding of journalistic salaries?
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i/ili finansiranje novinarskih plaća ?
14:06
JA: Yep. Yeah, and trusted people.
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JA: Da. Tako je, i ljudi kojima vjerujemo.
14:08
I mean, we're an organization
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Pa mislim, mi smo organizacija
14:10
that is hard to grow very quickly
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kojoj je teško rasti vrlo brzo
14:12
because of the sort of material we deal with,
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zbog vrste materijala sa kojim radimo.
14:14
so we have to restructure
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Moramo se restruktuirati
14:17
in order to have people
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da bi smo imali ljude
14:19
who will deal with the highest national security stuff,
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koji će raditi sa stvarima najviše državne bezbjednosti,
14:22
and then lower security cases.
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a onda sa slučajevima niže bezbjednosti.
14:24
CA: So help us understand a bit about you personally
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KA: Pomozite nam da vas bolje upoznamo
14:27
and how you came to do this.
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i kako ste otpočeli ovaj posao.
14:29
And I think I read that as a kid
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Mislim da sam pročitao da ste kao dijete
14:31
you went to 37 different schools.
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išli u 37 različitih škola.
14:34
Can that be right?
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Da li je to tačno ?
14:36
JA: Well, my parents were in the movie business
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JA: Pa dobro, moji roditelji su bili u filmskoj industriji
14:39
and then on the run from a cult,
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a onda u bijegu od kulta,
14:41
so the combination between the two ...
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tako da kombinacija izmedju to dvoje ...
14:43
(Laughter)
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( Smijeh )
14:47
CA: I mean, a psychologist might say
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KA: Mislim, psiholog bi mogao reći
14:49
that's a recipe for breeding paranoia.
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da je to recpat za razvijanje paranoje.
14:52
JA: What, the movie business?
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JA: Šta, filmska industrija ?
14:54
(Laughter)
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( Smijeh )
14:57
(Applause)
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( Aplauz )
15:00
CA: And you were also -- I mean,
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KA: Također ste bili -- mislim,
15:02
you were also a hacker at an early age
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bili ste haker u mlađoj životnoj dobi
15:04
and ran into the authorities early on.
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i susreli ste se s vlastima prilično rano.
15:07
JA: Well, I was a journalist.
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JA: Pa dobro, bio sam novinar.
15:10
You know, I was a very young journalist activist at an early age.
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Znate, bio sam vrlo mlad novinar aktivist u ranoj životnoj dobi.
15:12
I wrote a magazine,
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Pisao sam časopis,
15:14
was prosecuted for it when I was a teenager.
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bio osudjivan zbog toga kao tinejdžer.
15:17
So you have to be careful with hacker.
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Tako da morate biti oprezni sa hakiranjem.
15:19
I mean there's like -- there's a method
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Mislim postoji kao -- postoji metod
15:21
that can be deployed for various things.
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koji se može upotrijebiti za različite stvari.
15:23
Unfortunately, at the moment,
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Nažalost trenutno,
15:25
it's mostly deployed by the Russian mafia
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najviše je upotrebljavan od strane ruske mafije
15:27
in order to steal your grandmother's bank accounts.
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da bi se kralo sa računa vaših baka
15:29
So this phrase is not,
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Tako da ta fraza nije --
15:32
not as nice as it used to be.
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tako lijepa kao što je prije bila.
15:34
CA: Yeah, well, I certainly don't think
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KA: Da, ja zasigurno ne mislim
15:36
you're stealing anyone's grandmother's bank account,
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da vi kradete sa računa bilo čije bake.
15:39
but what about
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Ali šta je sa
15:41
your core values?
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vašim osnovnim vrijednostima ?
15:43
Can you give us a sense of what they are
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Možete li nam objasniti koje su to
15:46
and maybe some incident in your life
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i možda navesti poneki incident iz vašeg života
15:48
that helped determine them?
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koji je pomogao da ih odredi ?
15:53
JA: I'm not sure about the incident.
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JA: Nisam siguran u vezi incidenta.
15:55
But the core values:
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Ali osnovne vrijednosti:
15:58
well, capable, generous men
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pa, sposobni, velikodušni ljudi
16:01
do not create victims;
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ne stvaraju žrtve:
16:03
they nurture victims.
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oni njeguju žrtve.
16:05
And that's something from my father
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A to je nešto što je poteklo od mog oca
16:07
and something from other capable, generous men
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i nešto od drugih sposobnih, velikodušnih ljudi
16:10
that have been in my life.
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koji su bili u mome životu.
16:13
CA: Capable, generous men do not create victims;
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KA: Sposobni, velikodušni ljudi ne stvaraju žrtve:
16:15
they nurture victims?
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oni njeguju žrtve ?
16:17
JA: Yeah. And you know,
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JA: Da. I znate,
16:19
I'm a combative person,
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ja sam ratoborna osoba,
16:23
so I'm not actually so big on the nurture,
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tako da nisam pretjerano dobar u njegovanju.
16:25
but some way --
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Ali na neki način --
16:28
there is another way of nurturing victims,
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Postoji drugi način njegovanja žrtava,
16:31
which is to police perpetrators
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a to je hvatanje počinioca
16:34
of crime.
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krivičnih djela.
16:36
And so that is something
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A to je nešto
16:38
that has been in my character
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što je dio mog karaktera
16:40
for a long time.
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veoma dugo.
16:42
CA: So just tell us, very quickly in the last minute, the story:
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KA: Recite nam, na brzinu, u posljednoj minuti, priču:
16:45
what happened in Iceland?
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šta se desilo na Islandu ?
16:48
You basically published something there,
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Ustvari ste objavili nešto tamo,
16:51
ran into trouble with a bank,
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susreli se sa problemom s bankom,
16:54
then the news service there
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a onda je novinarskoj agenciji tamo
16:56
was injuncted from running the story.
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zabranjeno da objave tu priču.
16:59
Instead, they publicized your side.
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Umjesto toga, oni su objavili vašu stranu priče.
17:01
That made you very high-profile in Iceland. What happened next?
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To vas je učinilo važnom osobom na Islandu. Šta se zatim desilo ?
17:04
JA: Yeah, this is a great case, you know.
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JA: Da, to je velik slučaj, znate.
17:06
Iceland went through this financial crisis.
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Island je prošao kroz finansijsku krizu.
17:08
It was the hardest hit of any country in the world.
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Bio je to najjači udarac na neku zemlju u svijetu.
17:10
Its banking sector was 10 times the GDP
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Njihov bankarski sektor je bio 10 puta BDP-a veći
17:12
of the rest of the economy.
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od ostatka ekonomije.
17:14
Anyway, so we release this report
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U svakom slučaju, objavili smo taj izvještaj
17:17
in July last year.
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u julu prošle godine.
17:20
And the national TV station was injuncted
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Državna televizija našla se pod zabranom emitovanja
17:22
five minutes before it went on air,
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pet minuta prije samog emitovanja.
17:24
like out of a movie: injunction landed on the news desk,
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Kao iz filma, zabrana se našla na novinarskom stolu,
17:26
and the news reader was like,
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i voditelj je rekao,
17:28
"This has never happened before. What do we do?"
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" Ovo se nikad prije nije desilo. Šta da radimo ?"
17:30
Well, we just show the website instead,
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Stoga smo prikazivali samo internet-stranicu,
17:32
for all that time, as a filler,
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čitavo vrijeme, kao pokriće.
17:35
and we became very famous in Iceland,
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I postali smo vrlo poznati na Islandu,
17:37
went to Iceland and spoke about this issue.
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otišli smo tamo i govorili o ovom problemu.
17:40
And there was a feeling in the community
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Pojavio se osjećaj u zajednici
17:42
that that should never happen again,
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da se to nikad ne smije ponoviti.
17:44
and as a result,
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Kao rezultat,
17:46
working with Icelandic politicians
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kroz rad sa nekim islandskim političarima
17:48
and some other international legal experts,
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i nekim drugim međunarodnim pravnim stručnjacima,
17:50
we put together a new sort of
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došli smo do nekog novog
17:52
package of legislation for Iceland
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paketa propisa za Island
17:55
to sort of become an offshore haven
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da bi na neki način postalo spoljašnje utočište
17:58
for the free press,
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za slobodno novinarstvo,
18:01
with the strongest journalistic protections in the world,
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sa najjačom zaštitom novinara u svijetu,
18:04
with a new Nobel Prize
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sa novom Nobelovom nagradom
18:06
for freedom of speech.
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za slobodu govora.
18:08
Iceland's a Nordic country,
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Island je nordijska zemlja
18:10
so, like Norway, it's able to tap into the system.
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pa je poput Norveške, u stanju da to unese u sistem.
18:13
And just a month ago,
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Baš prije mjesec dana,
18:15
this was passed by the Icelandic parliament unanimously.
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ovo je prošlo jednoglasno od strane islandskog parlamenta.
18:18
CA: Wow.
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KA: Opa.
18:20
(Applause)
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( Aplauz )
18:26
Last question, Julian.
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Zadnje pitanje za vas, Julijan.
18:28
When you think of the future then,
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Kada razmišljate o budućnosti,
18:30
do you think it's more likely to be
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da li mislite da će vjerovatno
18:32
Big Brother exerting more control,
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Veliki Brat imati više kontrole,
18:34
more secrecy,
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više tajnovitosti,
18:36
or us watching
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ili mi koji gledamo
18:38
Big Brother,
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Velikog Brata,
18:40
or it's just all to be played for either way?
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ili će se sve to odigrati na bilo koji način ?
18:43
JA: I'm not sure which way it's going to go.
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JA: Nisam baš siguran u kojem pravcu to ide.
18:45
I mean, there's enormous pressures
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Mislim, postoje ogromni pritisci
18:47
to harmonize freedom of speech legislation
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da se izjednače propisi slobode govora
18:50
and transparency legislation around the world --
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i propisi o transparentnosti širom svijeta --
18:53
within the E.U.,
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unutar Evropske Unije,
18:55
between China and the United States.
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između Kine i SAD-a.
18:57
Which way is it going to go? It's hard to see.
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Kojim putem će to krenuti ? Teško je predvidjeti.
19:00
That's why it's a very interesting time to be in --
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Zato je vrlo interesantno biti u ovom vremenu.
19:02
because with just a little bit of effort,
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Jer uz samo manji napor
19:04
we can shift it one way or the other.
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mozemo usmjeriti tok na bilo koju stranu.
19:07
CA: Well, it looks like I'm reflecting the audience's opinion
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KA: Pa mislim, izgleda kao da odražavam mišljenje publike
19:10
to say, Julian, be careful,
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kad kažem, Julijane, budite oprezni
19:12
and all power to you.
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i neka je snaga na vašoj strani.
19:14
JA: Thank you, Chris. (CA: Thank you.)
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JA: Hvala vam, Kris. ( KA: Hvala vama.)
19:16
(Applause)
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( Aplauz )
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Julian Assange - WhistleblowerInternet activist Julian Assange serves as spokesperson for WikiLeaks, a controversial, volunteer-driven website that publishes and comments on leaked documents alleging government and corporate misconduct.
Why you should listen
You could say Australian-born Julian Assange has swapped his long-time interest in network security flaws for the far-more-suspect flaws of even bigger targets: governments and corporations. Since his early 20s, he has been using network technology to prod and probe the vulnerable edges of administrative systems, but though he was a computing hobbyist first (in 1991 he was the target of hacking charges after he accessed the computers of an Australian telecom), he's now taken off his "white hat" and launched a career as one of the world's most visible human-rights activists.
He calls himself "editor in chief." He travels the globe as its spokesperson. Yet Assange's part in WikiLeaks is clearly dicier than that: he's become the face of creature that, simply, many powerful organizations would rather see the world rid of. His Wikipedia entry says he is "constantly on the move," and some speculate that his role in publishing decrypted US military video has put him in personal danger. A controversial figure, pundits debate whether his work is reckless and does more harm than good. Amnesty International recognized him with an International Media Award in 2009.
Assange studied physics and mathematics at the University of Melbourne. He wrote Strobe, the first free and open-source port scanner, and contributed to the book Underground: Tales of Hacking, Madness and Obsession on the Electronic Frontier.
Julian Assange | Speaker | TED.com