TEDGlobal 2010
Julian Assange: Why the world needs WikiLeaks
Džulijan Asanž: Zašto je svetu potreban "Vikiliks"
Filmed:
Readability: 4.4
2,716,210 views
Kontroverzni sajt "Vikiliks" skuplja i objavljuje visoko poverljive dokumente i video snimke. Osnivač Džulijan Asanž, koga navodno vlasti Sjedinjenih Država traže zbog ispitivanja, priča sa Krisom Andersonom iz TED-a o tome kako taj sajt funkcioniše, šta je postigao - i šta ga pokreće. Intervju sadrži eksplicitne snimke nedavnog američkog vazdušnog napada u Bagdadu.
Julian Assange - Whistleblower
Internet activist Julian Assange serves as spokesperson for WikiLeaks, a controversial, volunteer-driven website that publishes and comments on leaked documents alleging government and corporate misconduct. Full bio
Internet activist Julian Assange serves as spokesperson for WikiLeaks, a controversial, volunteer-driven website that publishes and comments on leaked documents alleging government and corporate misconduct. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
Chris Anderson: Julian, welcome.
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Kris Anderson: Džulijane, dobrodošao.
00:17
It's been reported that WikiLeaks, your baby,
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Kaže se da je "Vikiliks", Vaša beba,
00:19
has, in the last few years
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objavio... u poslednjih nekoliko godina
00:21
has released more classified documents
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je objavio više poverljivih dokumenata
00:24
than the rest of the world's media combined.
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nego ostali svetski mediji zajedno.
00:26
Can that possibly be true?
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Da li je moguće da je to istina?
00:28
Julian Assange: Yeah, can it possibly be true?
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Džulijan Asanž: Da, može li biti istina?
00:30
It's a worry -- isn't it? -- that the rest of the world's media
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To zabrinjava - zar ne? - da ostatak svetskih medija
00:33
is doing such a bad job
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tako loše radi posao,
00:35
that a little group of activists
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da je mala grupa aktivista
00:37
is able to release more
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u stanju da objavi više
00:39
of that type of information
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informacija takve vrste,
00:41
than the rest of the world press combined.
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nego svi ostali svetski mediji zajedno.
00:43
CA: How does it work?
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KA: Kako to funkcioniše?
00:45
How do people release the documents?
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Kako ljudi objavljuju ta dokumenta?
00:48
And how do you secure their privacy?
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I kako im osiguravate privatnost?
00:51
JA: So these are -- as far as we can tell --
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DžA: To su - koliko je nama poznato -
00:53
classical whistleblowers,
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klasični insajderi.
00:55
and we have a number of ways for them
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Imamo nekoliko načina na koje
00:57
to get information to us.
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oni mogu da nam dostave informacije.
00:59
So we use this state-of-the-art encryption
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Koristimo prvoklasno kodiranje
01:01
to bounce stuff around the Internet, to hide trails,
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da prenosimo stvari preko interneta, da sakrijemo tragove,
01:03
pass it through legal jurisdictions
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prođemo pored pravnih nadležnosti,
01:05
like Sweden and Belgium
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kao Švedska i Belgija,
01:08
to enact those legal protections.
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da obezbedimo tu pravnu zaštitu.
01:12
We get information in the mail,
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Informacije dobijamo poštom,
01:14
the regular postal mail,
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običnom poštom,
01:17
encrypted or not,
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šifrovane ili ne,
01:19
vet it like a regular news organization, format it --
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pregledamo ih kao obična novinska organizacija, presložimo -
01:22
which is sometimes something that's quite hard to do,
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što je nekad nešto što je veoma teško uraditi,
01:25
when you're talking about
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kada govorimo o
01:27
giant databases of information --
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ogromnim bazama informacija -
01:29
release it to the public
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objavimo u javnosti
01:31
and then defend ourselves
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i onda se branimo
01:33
against the inevitable legal and political attacks.
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od neizbežnih pravnih i političkih napada.
01:36
CA: So you make an effort to ensure
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KA: Znači ulažete napor da osigurate
01:38
the documents are legitimate,
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da su dokumenta legitimna.
01:40
but you actually
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Ali zapravo
01:42
almost never know who the identity of the source is?
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skoro nikada ne znate identitet izvora.
01:45
JA: That's right, yeah. Very rarely do we ever know,
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DžA: Tako je, da. Samo veoma retko znamo.
01:49
and if we find out at some stage
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I ako u nekom trenutku saznamo,
01:52
then we destroy that information as soon as possible.
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onda što pre uništimo tu informaciju.
01:55
(Phone ring) God damn it.
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(telefon zvoni) Prokletstvo.
01:57
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
02:01
CA: I think that's the CIA asking what the code is
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KA: Mislim da to CIA želi da sazna
02:03
for a TED membership.
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kod za članstvo u TED-u.
02:05
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
02:08
So let's take [an] example, actually.
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Uzmimo neki primer.
02:10
This is something
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Ovo ste pustili
02:12
you leaked a few years ago.
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pre nekoliko godina.
02:14
If we can have this document up ...
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Ako možemo da dobijemo taj dokument...
02:16
So this was a story in Kenya a few years ago.
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Dakle, ovo je bila priča u Keniji pre nekoliko godina.
02:18
Can you tell us what you leaked and what happened?
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Možete li nam reći šta ste objavili i šta se desilo?
02:21
JA: So this is the Kroll Report.
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DžA: Ovo je "Kroll" izveštaj.
02:23
This was a secret intelligence report
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To je bio izveštaj tajne obaveštajne službe
02:26
commissioned by the Kenyan government
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koji je poručila kenijska vlada
02:28
after its election in 2004.
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posle izbora 2004.
02:31
Prior to 2004, Kenya was ruled
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Pre 2004. Kenijom je vladao
02:33
by Daniel arap Moi
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Danijel arap Moi
02:35
for about 18 years.
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nekih 18 godina.
02:37
He was a soft dictator of Kenya.
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On je bio blagi diktator u Keniji.
02:40
And when Kibaki got into power --
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A kada je Kibaki došao na vlast -
02:42
through a coalition of forces that were trying
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kroz koaliciju snaga koje su
02:44
to clean up corruption in Kenya --
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pokušavale da okončaju korupciju u Keniji -
02:46
they commissioned this report,
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naručili su ovaj izveštaj,
02:48
spent about two million pounds
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potrošili oko dva miliona funti
02:50
on this and an associated report.
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na ovo i na još jedan izveštaj.
02:52
And then the government sat on it
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Onda je vlada to sakrila
02:55
and used it for political leverage on Moi,
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i koristila kao političku prednost nad Moiem,
02:57
who was the richest man --
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koji je bio najbogatiji čovek -
02:59
still is the richest man -- in Kenya.
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i dalje je najbogatiji čovek - u Keniji.
03:02
It's the Holy Grail of Kenyan journalism.
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To je Sveti Gral kenijskog novinarstva.
03:05
So I went there in 2007,
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Ja sam otišao tamo 2007.
03:08
and we managed to get hold of this
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i uspeli smo da se dočepamo ovoga
03:10
just prior to the election --
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neposredno pred izbore -
03:12
the national election, December 28.
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nacionalne izbore, 28. decembra.
03:17
When we released that report,
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Kada smo objavili taj izveštaj,
03:20
we did so three days after the new president, Kibaki,
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bilo je to tri dana pošto je novi predsednik, Kibaki,
03:23
had decided to pal up with
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odlučio da se udruži
03:25
the man that he was going to clean out,
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sa čovekom kojeg je želeo da "očisti",
03:27
Daniel arap Moi,
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Danijelom arap Moijem.
03:29
so this report then
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Tako da je ovaj izveštaj
03:32
became a dead albatross
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onda postao kamen
03:34
around President Kibaki's neck.
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oko vrata predsednika Kibakija.
03:38
CA: And -- I mean, to cut a long story short --
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KA: I - mislim, da skratimo priču -
03:41
word of the report leaked into Kenya,
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u Keniji se saznalo za taj izveštaj,
03:44
not from the official media, but indirectly,
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ne od zvaničnih medija, nego indirektno.
03:47
and in your opinion, it actually shifted the election.
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I po Vašem mišljenju, to je promenilo izbore.
03:50
JA: Yeah. So this became front page of the Guardian
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DžA: Da. To je dospelo na naslovnu stranu "Gardijana"
03:53
and was then printed in all the surrounding countries of Kenya,
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i onda se štampalo u svim susednim zemljama,
03:56
in Tanzanian and South African press.
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u tanzanijskim i južnoafričkim novinama.
03:59
And so it came in from the outside.
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Tako da je ušlo spolja.
04:01
And that, after a couple of days,
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Zbog toga se, posle nekoliko dana,
04:03
made the Kenyan press feel safe to talk about it.
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kenijska štampa osećala bezbedno da o tome govori.
04:05
And it ran for 20 nights straight on Kenyan TV,
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Dvadeset noći uzastopno je emitovano na kenijskoj televiziji,
04:08
shifted the vote by 10 percent,
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promenilo je glasove za 10%
04:11
according to a Kenyan intelligence report,
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prema izveštaju kenijske obaveštajne službe,
04:13
which changed the result of the election.
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što je promenilo ishod izbora.
04:15
CA: Wow, so your leak
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KA: Opa, znači Vaše objavljivanje
04:17
really substantially changed the world?
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je zaista značajno promenilo svet?
04:19
JA: Yep.
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DžA: Da.
04:21
(Applause)
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(aplauz)
04:25
CA: Here's -- We're going to just show
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KA: Pokazaćemo
04:27
a short clip from this
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kratak video klip
04:30
Baghdad airstrike video.
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vazdušnog napada u Bagdadu.
04:32
The video itself is longer,
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Sam video je duži.
04:34
but here's a short clip.
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Ali evo kratkog isečka.
04:36
This is -- this is intense material, I should warn you.
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Ovo je - ovo je intenzivan materijal, moram da vas upozorim.
04:39
Radio: ... just fuckin', once you get on 'em just open 'em up.
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Radio: ... samo jebeno, kad ih vidiš, pali.
04:42
I see your element, uh, got about four Humvees, uh, out along ...
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Vidim vaš element, vidim oko četiri Hamvija, mmm tamo pored...
04:46
You're clear. All right. Firing.
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Čisto je. U redu. Palim.
04:49
Let me know when you've got them. Let's shoot.
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Javite kad ih pogodite. Pucajmo.
04:52
Light 'em all up.
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Zapalite ih sve.
04:54
C'mon, fire!
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'Ajde, pucajte!
04:56
(Machine gun fire)
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(pucanje)
04:59
Keep shoot 'n. Keep shoot 'n.
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Nastavite da pucate. Nastavite da pucate.
05:02
(Machine gun fire)
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(pucanje)
05:05
Keep shoot 'n.
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Nastavite da pucate.
05:08
Hotel ... Bushmaster Two-Six, Bushmaster Two-Six,
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Hotel... Bušmaster 2-6, Bušmaster 2-6,
05:10
we need to move, time now!
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moramo da se pomeramo, sada!
05:12
All right, we just engaged all eight individuals.
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U redu, upravo smo naciljali svih osam osoba.
05:15
Yeah, we see two birds [helicopters], and we're still firing.
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Da, vidimo dvoje i još uvek pucamo.
05:18
Roger. I got 'em.
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Prijem. Imam ih.
05:20
Two-Six, this is Two-Six, we're mobile.
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2-6, ovde 2-6, u pokretu smo.
05:22
Oops, I'm sorry. What was going on?
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Ups, izvinjavam se. Šta se dešavalo?
05:24
God damn it, Kyle. All right, hahaha. I hit 'em.
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Prokletstvo, Kajl. U redu, hahha. Pogodio sam ih.
05:29
CA: So, what was the impact of that?
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KA: Dakle, kakav je bio uticaj ovoga?
05:32
JA: The impact on the people who worked on it
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DžA: Uticaj na ljude koji su radili na tome
05:35
was severe.
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je bio žestok.
05:37
We ended up sending two people to Baghdad
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Na kraju smo poslali dvoje ljudi u Bagdad
05:39
to further research that story.
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da detaljnije istraže tu priču.
05:41
So this is just the first of three attacks
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Dakle ovo je samo prvi od tri napada
05:44
that occurred in that scene.
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koji se desio u toj sceni.
05:46
CA: So, I mean, 11 people died in that attack, right,
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KA: Znači, 11 ljudi je poginulo u tom napadu, je l' tako,
05:48
including two Reuters employees?
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uključujući dva "Rojtersova" radnika?
05:50
JA: Yeah. Two Reuters employees,
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DžA: Da. Dva radnika "Rojtersa",
05:52
two young children were wounded.
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dvoje dece je ranjeno.
05:55
There were between 18 and 26 people killed all together.
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Ukupno je ubijeno između 18 i 26 ljudi.
05:58
CA: And releasing this caused
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KA: I objavljivanje ovoga je izazvalo
06:00
widespread outrage.
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bes na sve strane.
06:02
What was the key element of this
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Šta mislite da je ključno u ovome,
06:04
that actually caused the outrage, do you think?
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a što je izazvalo taj bes?
06:07
JA: I don't know. I guess people can see
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DžA: Ne znam, pretpostavljam da ljudi vide
06:09
the gross disparity in force.
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ogromno neslaganje u sili.
06:12
You have guys walking in a relaxed way down the street,
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Imate ljude koji opušteno šetaju ulicom,
06:14
and then an Apache helicopter sitting up at one kilometer
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i "Apač" helikopter koji stoji u uglu
06:17
firing 30-millimeter cannon shells
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i ispaljuje 30-milimetarske granate
06:19
on everyone --
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na sve -
06:21
looking for any excuse to do so --
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tražeći bilo kakav izgovor za to -
06:24
and killing people rescuing the wounded.
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i ubija ljude koji spašavaju ranjenike.
06:26
And there was two journalists involved that clearly weren't insurgents
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Tu su bila umešana dva novinara koji očigledno nisu bili pobunjenici
06:29
because that's their full-time job.
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jer to im je posao.
06:33
CA: I mean, there's been this U.S. intelligence analyst,
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KA: Jedan analitičar američke obaveštajne službe,
06:36
Bradley Manning, arrested,
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Bredli Mening, je uhapšen.
06:38
and it's alleged that he confessed in a chat room
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Navodno je on priznao
06:41
to have leaked this video to you,
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da Vam je dostavio ove snimke,
06:44
along with 280,000
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zajedno sa još 280.000
06:46
classified U.S. embassy cables.
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poverljivih telegrama američke ambasade.
06:48
I mean, did he?
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Mislim, da li je?
06:51
JA: We have denied receiving those cables.
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DžA: Pa, porekli smo primanje tih telegrama.
06:53
He has been charged,
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On je pre nekih pet dana
06:55
about five days ago,
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optužen
06:57
with obtaining 150,000 cables
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da je došao do 150.000 telegrama
07:00
and releasing 50.
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i da je objavio 50.
07:02
Now, we had released,
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E sad, mi smo ranije
07:05
early in the year,
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ove godine objavili
07:07
a cable from the Reykjavik U.S. embassy,
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jedan telegram iz američke ambasade u Rejkjaviku.
07:11
but this is not necessarily connected.
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Ali to nije nužno povezano.
07:13
I mean, I was a known visitor of that embassy.
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uvaženi posetilac te ambasade.
07:15
CA: I mean, if you did receive thousands
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KA: Mislim, da ste dobili hiljade
07:17
of U.S. embassy diplomatic cables ...
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američkih diplomatskih telegrama...
07:20
JA: We would have released them. (CA: You would?)
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DžA: Objavili bismo ih. (KA: Biste?)
07:22
JA: Yeah. (CA: Because?)
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DžA: Da. (KA: Zašto?)
07:25
JA: Well, because these sort of things
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DžA: Pa, zato što takve stvari
07:27
reveal what the true state
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otkrivaju kakvo je pravo stanje
07:30
of, say,
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recimo,
07:32
Arab governments are like,
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arapskih vlada,
07:34
the true human-rights abuses in those governments.
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prave zloupotrebe ljudskih prava u tim vladama.
07:37
If you look at declassified cables,
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Ako pogledate telegrame koji su otkriveni,
07:39
that's the sort of material that's there.
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takav materijal se tamo nalazi.
07:41
CA: So let's talk a little more broadly about this.
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KA: Hajde da malo šire govorimo o ovome.
07:43
I mean, in general, what's your philosophy?
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Mislim, uopšteno, koja je Vaša filozofija?
07:45
Why is it right
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Zašto je u redu
07:47
to encourage leaking of secret information?
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ohrabrivati objavljivanje tajnih informacija?
07:51
JA: Well, there's a question as to what sort of information is important in the world,
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DžA: Pa, postoji pitanje kakve vrste informacija su važne u svetu,
07:54
what sort of information
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kakve vrste informacija
07:56
can achieve reform.
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mogu dovesti do promene.
07:58
And there's a lot of information.
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A postoji mnogo informacija.
08:00
So information that organizations
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Dakle informacije za koje organizacije
08:02
are spending economic effort into concealing,
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troše ekonomski napor da ih sakriju,
08:05
that's a really good signal
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su dobar signal
08:07
that when the information gets out,
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da kada te informacije izađu,
08:09
there's a hope of it doing some good --
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postoji nada da naprave nešto dobro.
08:11
because the organizations that know it best,
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Jer organizacije koje ih najbolje znaju,
08:13
that know it from the inside out,
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koje ih znaju i spolja i iznutra,
08:15
are spending work to conceal it.
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ulažu napor da ih sakriju.
08:18
And that's what we've found in practice,
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To smo videli u praksi.
08:20
and that's what the history of journalism is.
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I to je istorija novinarstva.
08:23
CA: But are there risks with that,
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KA: Ali zar ne postoje rizici,
08:26
either to the individuals concerned
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bilo za pojedince koji su uključeni u to
08:29
or indeed to society at large,
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ili za društvo u celini,
08:31
where leaking can actually have
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kada objavljivanje može imati
08:33
an unintended consequence?
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nenamerne posledice?
08:35
JA: Not that we have seen with anything we have released.
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DžA: Mi ih nismo primetili u vezi sa bilo čim što smo objavili.
08:37
I mean, we have a harm immunization policy.
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Mislim, mi imamo politiku imunizacije protiv štete.
08:39
We have a way of dealing with information
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Imamo način na koji radimo sa informacijama
08:41
that has sort of personal --
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koje imaju neki lični -
08:43
personally identifying information in it.
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koje u sebi imaju informacije o identitetu.
08:46
But there are legitimate secrets --
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Ali postoje legitimne tajne -
08:49
you know, your records with your doctor;
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znate, vaši podaci kod lekara,
08:52
that's a legitimate secret --
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to je legitimna tajna.
08:54
but we deal with whistleblowers that are coming forward
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Ali mi radimo sa insajderima koji istupaju,
08:56
that are really sort of well-motivated.
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a koji su zaista motivisani.
08:59
CA: So they are well-motivated.
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KA: Znači, oni su motivisani.
09:01
And what would you say to, for example,
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A šta biste rekli, na primer,
09:03
the, you know, the parent of someone
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znate, roditelju nekoga -
09:06
whose son is out serving the U.S. military,
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čiji sin služi u američkoj vojsci
09:09
and he says, "You know what,
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i kaže, "Znate šta,
09:11
you've put up something that someone had an incentive to put out.
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objavili ste nešto za šta neko ima interesa da se objavi.
09:13
It shows a U.S. soldier laughing
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To pokazuje američke vojnike kako se smeju
09:15
at people dying.
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ljudima koji umiru.
09:17
That gives the impression, has given the impression,
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To milionima ljudi na svetu
09:19
to millions of people around the world
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odaje utisak
09:21
that U.S. soldiers are inhuman people.
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da su američki vojnici nehumani.
09:23
Actually, they're not. My son isn't. How dare you?"
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A oni ustvari nisu. Moj sin nije. Kako se usuđujete?"
09:25
What would you say to that?
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Šta biste rekli na to?
09:27
JA: Yeah, we do get a lot of that.
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DžA: Da, imamo mnogo toga.
09:29
But remember, the people in Baghdad,
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Ali zapamtite, ti ljudi u Bagdadu,
09:31
the people in Iraq, the people in Afghanistan --
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ljudi u Iraku, u Avganistanu -
09:34
they don't need to see the video;
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oni ne moraju da gledaju snimak;
09:36
they see it every day.
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oni to vide svaki dan.
09:38
So it's not going to change their opinion. It's not going to change their perception.
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Tako da to neće promeniti njihovo mišljenje. Neće im promeniti percepciju.
09:41
That's what they see every day.
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Oni to vide svaki dan.
09:43
It will change the perception and opinion
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Promeniće percepciju i mišljenje
09:46
of the people who are paying for it all,
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onih ljudi koji plaćaju sve to.
09:48
and that's our hope.
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A u tome je naša nada.
09:51
CA: So you found a way to shine light
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KA: Dakle, pronašli ste način da osvetlite
09:54
into what you see
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ono što smatrate
09:57
as these sort of dark secrets in companies and in government.
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mračnim tajnama u kompanijama i vladama.
10:01
Light is good.
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Svetlo je dobro.
10:03
But do you see any irony in the fact that,
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Ali da li vidite ironiju u činjenici da,
10:05
in order for you to shine that light,
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da biste osvetlili te stvari,
10:07
you have to, yourself,
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vi sami morate da
10:09
create secrecy around your sources?
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stvorite tajnovitost oko Vaših izvora?
10:12
JA: Not really. I mean, we don't have
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DžA: Ne baš. Mislim, još uvek
10:15
any WikiLeaks dissidents yet.
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nemamo "Vikiliks" disidente.
10:19
We don't have sources who are dissidents on other sources.
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Nemamo izvore koji se ne slažu sa drugim izvorima.
10:23
Should they come forward, that would be a tricky situation for us,
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Kada bi takvi došli, to bi za nas bila nezgodna situacija.
10:26
but we're presumably acting in such a way
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Ali mi verovatno radimo na takav način
10:29
that people feel
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da se ljudi osećaju
10:31
morally compelled
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moralno primoranim
10:33
to continue our mission, not to screw it up.
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da nastave našu misiju, a ne da je unište.
10:37
CA: I'd actually be interested, just based on what we've heard so far --
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KA: Interesuje me, samo na osnovu ovoga što smo čuli do sada -
10:40
I'm curious as to the opinion in the TED audience.
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interesuje me mišljenje TED publike.
10:45
You know, there might be a couple of views
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Znate, možda ima par pogleda
10:47
of WikiLeaks and of Julian.
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na "Vikiliks" i na Džulijana.
10:49
You know, hero -- people's hero --
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Znate, heroj - narodni heroj -
10:52
bringing this important light.
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koji osvetljava ove bitne stvari.
10:55
Dangerous troublemaker.
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Opasni smutljivac.
10:58
Who's got the hero view?
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Ko misli da je heroj?
11:02
Who's got the dangerous troublemaker view?
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Ko misli da je opasni smutljivac?
11:06
JA: Oh, come on. There must be some.
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DžA: O, hajde. Mora da ima nekog.
11:09
CA: It's a soft crowd, Julian, a soft crowd.
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KA: Ovo je blaga publika, Džulijane, blaga publika.
11:11
We have to try better. Let's show them another example.
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Moramo da se potrudimo. Pokažimo im još jedan primer.
11:13
Now here's something that you haven't yet leaked,
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Ovo je nešto što niste još objavili,
11:16
but I think for TED you are.
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ali objavljujete za TED.
11:19
I mean it's an intriguing story that's just happened, right?
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Mislim, intrigantno je da se ovo upravo desilo, zar ne?
11:21
What is this?
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Šta je ovo?
11:23
JA: So this is a sample of what we do
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DžA: Ovo je uzorak onoga
11:25
sort of every day.
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što radimo svaki dan.
11:27
So late last year -- in November last year --
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Dakle kasno prošle godine - u novembru prošle godine -
11:30
there was a series of well blowouts
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bila je serija eksplozija na bušotinama
11:32
in Albania,
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u Albaniji
11:34
like the well blowout in the Gulf of Mexico,
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kao ova u meksičkom zalivu,
11:37
but not quite as big.
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ali ne toliko velike.
11:39
And we got a report --
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I dobili smo izveštaj -
11:42
a sort of engineering analysis into what happened --
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nekakvu inženjersku analizu toga šta se desilo -
11:45
saying that, in fact, security guards
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koji govori da su ustvari, ljudi iz obezbeđenja
11:48
from some rival, various competing oil firms
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konkurenta, neke druge naftne kompanije,
11:51
had, in fact, parked trucks there and blown them up.
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parkirali kamione tamo i digli ih u vazduh.
11:55
And part of the Albanian government was in this, etc., etc.
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I deo albanske vlade je bio umešan, itd itd.
11:59
And the engineering report
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A taj izveštaj
12:00
had nothing on the top of it,
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nije imao ništa u zaglavlju.
12:02
so it was an extremely difficult document for us.
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Tako da je bio prilično težak dokument za nas.
12:04
We couldn't verify it because we didn't know
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Nismo mogli da ga verifikujemo jer nismo znali
12:06
who wrote it and knew what it was about.
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ko ga je napisao i o čemu je pisao.
12:08
So we were kind of skeptical that maybe it was
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Tako da smo bili skeptični i možda je
12:10
a competing oil firm just sort of playing the issue up.
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konkurentska kompanija samo zakuvavala stvari.
12:12
So under that basis, we put it out and said,
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Sa tim smo i krenuli, rekli smo,
12:14
"Look, we're skeptical about this thing.
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"Vidite, skeptični smo povodom ovoga.
12:16
We don't know, but what can we do?
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Ne znamo, ali šta možemo?
12:18
The material looks good, it feels right,
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Materijal izgleda dobro, osećaj je dobar,
12:20
but we just can't verify it."
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ali ne možemo da ga potvrdimo."
12:22
And we then got a letter
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Onda smo dobili jedno pismo
12:25
just this week
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upravo ove nedelje,
12:28
from the company who wrote it,
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od kompanije koja je napisala izveštaj
12:31
wanting to track down the source --
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i koja je htela da dođe do izvora -
12:34
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
12:38
saying, "Hey, we want to track down the source."
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rekli su, "Hej, mi želimo da saznamo vaš izvor".
12:41
And we were like, "Oh, tell us more.
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A mi smo rekli, "O, kažite nam nešto više.
12:43
What document is it, precisely, you're talking about?
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O kom dokumentu se tačno radi?
12:46
Can you show that you had legal authority over that document?
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Da li možete da dokažete da je to vaš dokument?
12:49
Is it really yours?"
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Da li je stvarno vaš?"
12:51
So they sent us this screen shot
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Oni su nam poslali snimak ekrana
12:54
with the author
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sa identifikacijom autora
12:56
in the Microsoft Word ID.
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u "Microsoft Wordu".
13:01
Yeah.
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Da.
13:03
(Applause)
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(aplauz)
13:08
That's happened quite a lot though.
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To se mnogo puta desilo.
13:10
This is like one of our methods
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Kao, ovo je jedan od naših načina
13:12
of identifying, of verifying, what a material is,
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identifikacije - potvrde materijala,
13:15
is to try and get these guys to write letters.
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tako što pokušavamo da nagovorimo te momke da pišu pisma.
13:17
CA: Yeah. Have you had information
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KA: Da. Da li ste imali informacije
13:20
from inside BP?
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iz samog BP-a?
13:22
JA: Yeah, we have a lot, but I mean, at the moment,
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DžA: Da, imamo ih mnogo, ali u ovom momentu
13:25
we are undergoing a sort of serious fundraising and engineering effort.
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ulažemo velike nepore u skupljanje sredstava i izgradnju.
13:28
So our publication rate
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Tako da je objavljivanje
13:30
over the past few months
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u poslednjih nekoliko meseci
13:32
has been sort of minimized
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svedeno na minimum
13:34
while we're re-engineering our back systems
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dok preuređujemo naše sisteme
13:37
for the phenomenal public interest that we have.
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za fenomenalno interesovanje javnosti koje imamo.
13:40
That's a problem.
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To je problem.
13:42
I mean, like any sort of growing startup organization,
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Mislim, kao bilo koja mlada rastuća organizacija,
13:45
we are sort of overwhelmed
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mi smo donekle oduševljeni
13:47
by our growth,
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svojim rastom.
13:49
and that means we're getting enormous quantity
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A to znači da imamo ogroman broj
13:51
of whistleblower disclosures
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otkrivenih insajdera
13:53
of a very high caliber
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visokog kalibra,
13:55
but don't have enough people to actually
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ali nemamo dovoljno ljudi da stvarno
13:57
process and vet this information.
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obradimo i pregledamo ove informacije.
13:59
CA: So that's the key bottleneck,
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KA: Znači to je ključni problem,
14:01
basically journalistic volunteers
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uglavnom novinari dobrovoljci
14:03
and/or the funding of journalistic salaries?
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i/ili finansiranje novinarskih plata?
14:06
JA: Yep. Yeah, and trusted people.
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DžA: Da. Da, i ljudi kojima verujemo.
14:08
I mean, we're an organization
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Mislim, mi smo organizacija
14:10
that is hard to grow very quickly
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kojoj je teško da brzo raste
14:12
because of the sort of material we deal with,
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zbog vrste materijala sa kojim radimo.
14:14
so we have to restructure
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Tako da moramo da se restruktuiramo
14:17
in order to have people
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kako bismo imali ljude
14:19
who will deal with the highest national security stuff,
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koji žele da se bave stvarima državne bezbednosti
14:22
and then lower security cases.
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i stvarima koje nisu bezbedne.
14:24
CA: So help us understand a bit about you personally
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KA: Pomozite nam da bolje upoznamo Vas
14:27
and how you came to do this.
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i kako ste počeli ovo da radite.
14:29
And I think I read that as a kid
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Mislim da sam pročitao da ste kao klinac
14:31
you went to 37 different schools.
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išli u 37 različitih škola.
14:34
Can that be right?
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Da li je to tačno?
14:36
JA: Well, my parents were in the movie business
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DžA: Pa, moji roditelji su se bavili filmovima
14:39
and then on the run from a cult,
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i bežali su od neke sekte,
14:41
so the combination between the two ...
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tako da kombinacija ta dva...
14:43
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
14:47
CA: I mean, a psychologist might say
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KA: Mislim, neki psiholog bi mogao reći
14:49
that's a recipe for breeding paranoia.
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da je to recept za razvijanje paranoje.
14:52
JA: What, the movie business?
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DžA: Šta, snimanje filmova?
14:54
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
14:57
(Applause)
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(aplauz)
15:00
CA: And you were also -- I mean,
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KA: I bili ste - mislim,
15:02
you were also a hacker at an early age
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takođe ste bili haker kao mladić
15:04
and ran into the authorities early on.
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i vrlo rano ste naleteli na vlast.
15:07
JA: Well, I was a journalist.
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DžA: Pa, bio sam novinar.
15:10
You know, I was a very young journalist activist at an early age.
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Znate, bio sam veoma mladi novinar aktivista.
15:12
I wrote a magazine,
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Pisao sam časopis,
15:14
was prosecuted for it when I was a teenager.
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zbog kog su me kao tinejdžera gonili na sudu.
15:17
So you have to be careful with hacker.
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Tako da morate biti oprezni s tim "haker".
15:19
I mean there's like -- there's a method
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Mislim, postoji - postoji metod
15:21
that can be deployed for various things.
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koji može da se razvije za različite stvari.
15:23
Unfortunately, at the moment,
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Nažalost, trenutno
15:25
it's mostly deployed by the Russian mafia
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ga najviše razvija ruska mafija
15:27
in order to steal your grandmother's bank accounts.
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kako bi krala sa bankovnih računa vaših baka.
15:29
So this phrase is not,
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Tako da ta fraza nije -
15:32
not as nice as it used to be.
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nije tako lepa kao što je bila.
15:34
CA: Yeah, well, I certainly don't think
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KA: Da, pa, ja sigurno ne mislim
15:36
you're stealing anyone's grandmother's bank account,
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da Vi kradete sa računa bilo čije bake.
15:39
but what about
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Ali šta je sa
15:41
your core values?
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Vašim sržnim vrednostima?
15:43
Can you give us a sense of what they are
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Možete li da nam dočarate koje su
15:46
and maybe some incident in your life
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i možda da date neki događaj iz života
15:48
that helped determine them?
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koji je pomogao da se one učvrste?
15:53
JA: I'm not sure about the incident.
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DžA: Nisam siguran za događaj.
15:55
But the core values:
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Ali sržne vrednosti:
15:58
well, capable, generous men
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pa, sposobni, velikodušni ljudi
16:01
do not create victims;
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ne stvaraju žrtve;
16:03
they nurture victims.
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oni neguju žrtve.
16:05
And that's something from my father
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A to je nešto od mog oca
16:07
and something from other capable, generous men
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i drugih sposobnih, velikodušnih ljudi
16:10
that have been in my life.
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koji su bili u mom životu.
16:13
CA: Capable, generous men do not create victims;
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KA: Sposobni, velikodušni ljudi ne stvaraju žrtve;
16:15
they nurture victims?
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oni neguju žrtve?
16:17
JA: Yeah. And you know,
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DžA: Da. Znate,
16:19
I'm a combative person,
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ja sam ratoborna osoba,
16:23
so I'm not actually so big on the nurture,
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i nisam baš dobar u negovanju.
16:25
but some way --
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Ali na neki način -
16:28
there is another way of nurturing victims,
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Postoji drugi način negovanja žrtava,
16:31
which is to police perpetrators
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a to je hvatanje počinilaca
16:34
of crime.
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zločina.
16:36
And so that is something
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To je nešto
16:38
that has been in my character
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što je u mom karakteru
16:40
for a long time.
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već dugo.
16:42
CA: So just tell us, very quickly in the last minute, the story:
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KA: Ispričajte nam brzo, u poslednjim minutima, priču:
16:45
what happened in Iceland?
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šta se desilo na Islandu?
16:48
You basically published something there,
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U suštini, nešto ste tamo objavili,
16:51
ran into trouble with a bank,
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upali u nevolju s nekom bankom,
16:54
then the news service there
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a onda je medijima tamo
16:56
was injuncted from running the story.
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zabranjeno da objave priču.
16:59
Instead, they publicized your side.
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Umesto toga, oni su objavili vašu stranu.
17:01
That made you very high-profile in Iceland. What happened next?
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Napravili su od Vas bitnog lika na Islandu. Šta se potom desilo?
17:04
JA: Yeah, this is a great case, you know.
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DžA: Da, znate, to jeste veliki slučaj.
17:06
Iceland went through this financial crisis.
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Island je prolazio kroz finansijsku krizu.
17:08
It was the hardest hit of any country in the world.
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Bio je to najteži udarac na neku zemlju u svetu.
17:10
Its banking sector was 10 times the GDP
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Sektor bankarstva im je bio 10 puta veći
17:12
of the rest of the economy.
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od bruto domaćeg proizvoda ostatka privrede.
17:14
Anyway, so we release this report
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U svakom slučaju, objavili smo taj izveštaj
17:17
in July last year.
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u julu prošle godine.
17:20
And the national TV station was injuncted
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Nacionalna televizija je dobila zabranu
17:22
five minutes before it went on air,
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pet minuta pre emitovanja.
17:24
like out of a movie: injunction landed on the news desk,
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Kao na filmu, zabrana je sletela na sto spikera
17:26
and the news reader was like,
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i on je rekao
17:28
"This has never happened before. What do we do?"
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"To se nikada ranije nije desilo. Šta da radimo?"
17:30
Well, we just show the website instead,
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Pa, umesto toga ćemo samo prikazati vebsajt,
17:32
for all that time, as a filler,
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svo vreme, kao pokrivalicu.
17:35
and we became very famous in Iceland,
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I postali smo veoma poznati na Islandu,
17:37
went to Iceland and spoke about this issue.
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išli tamo i pričali o tom problemu.
17:40
And there was a feeling in the community
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U zajednici je postojalo osećanje
17:42
that that should never happen again,
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da to nikada ne sme da se ponovi.
17:44
and as a result,
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Kao rezultat toga,
17:46
working with Icelandic politicians
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radeći s nekim islandskim političarima
17:48
and some other international legal experts,
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i nekim drugim međunarodnim pravnim stručnjacima,
17:50
we put together a new sort of
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sastavili smo novi
17:52
package of legislation for Iceland
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paket propisa za Island
17:55
to sort of become an offshore haven
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da na neki način postane spoljno utočište
17:58
for the free press,
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za slobodnu štampu,
18:01
with the strongest journalistic protections in the world,
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sa najjačom zaštitom novinara na svetu,
18:04
with a new Nobel Prize
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sa Nobelovom nagradom
18:06
for freedom of speech.
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za slobodu govora.
18:08
Iceland's a Nordic country,
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Island je nordijska zemlja,
18:10
so, like Norway, it's able to tap into the system.
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dakle, kao Norveška, u mogućnosti je da utiče na sistem.
18:13
And just a month ago,
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I pre samo mesec dana,
18:15
this was passed by the Icelandic parliament unanimously.
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islandski parlament je ovo jednoglasno usvojio.
18:18
CA: Wow.
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KA: Opa!
18:20
(Applause)
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(aplauz)
18:26
Last question, Julian.
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Poslednje pitanje, Džulijane.
18:28
When you think of the future then,
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Kada razmišljate o budućnosti,
18:30
do you think it's more likely to be
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da li mislite da je verovatnije da
18:32
Big Brother exerting more control,
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će Veliki Brat imati više kontrole,
18:34
more secrecy,
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biti tajnovitiji,
18:36
or us watching
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ili da ćemo mi
18:38
Big Brother,
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posmatrati Velikog Brata
18:40
or it's just all to be played for either way?
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ili je moguć bilo koji ishod?
18:43
JA: I'm not sure which way it's going to go.
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DžA: Nisam siguran kojim putem će ići.
18:45
I mean, there's enormous pressures
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Mislim, postoje veliki pritisci
18:47
to harmonize freedom of speech legislation
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da se širom sveta usklade regulative oko
18:50
and transparency legislation around the world --
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slobode govora i transparentnosti -
18:53
within the E.U.,
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u okviru Ujedinjenih Nacija,
18:55
between China and the United States.
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između Kine i Sjedinjenih Država.
18:57
Which way is it going to go? It's hard to see.
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Kojim putem će ići? Teško je predvideti.
19:00
That's why it's a very interesting time to be in --
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Zato je ovo veoma interesantno vreme za život.
19:02
because with just a little bit of effort,
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Jer uz pomoć samo malo napora
19:04
we can shift it one way or the other.
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možemo tok usmeriti na bilo koju stranu.
19:07
CA: Well, it looks like I'm reflecting the audience's opinion
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KA: Pa, čini mi se da odražavam mišljenje publike
19:10
to say, Julian, be careful,
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kada kažem, Džulijane, budite oprezni,
19:12
and all power to you.
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i neka je moć na vašoj strani.
19:14
JA: Thank you, Chris. (CA: Thank you.)
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DžA: Hvala, Kris. (KA: Hvala Vama.)
19:16
(Applause)
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(aplauz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Julian Assange - WhistleblowerInternet activist Julian Assange serves as spokesperson for WikiLeaks, a controversial, volunteer-driven website that publishes and comments on leaked documents alleging government and corporate misconduct.
Why you should listen
You could say Australian-born Julian Assange has swapped his long-time interest in network security flaws for the far-more-suspect flaws of even bigger targets: governments and corporations. Since his early 20s, he has been using network technology to prod and probe the vulnerable edges of administrative systems, but though he was a computing hobbyist first (in 1991 he was the target of hacking charges after he accessed the computers of an Australian telecom), he's now taken off his "white hat" and launched a career as one of the world's most visible human-rights activists.
He calls himself "editor in chief." He travels the globe as its spokesperson. Yet Assange's part in WikiLeaks is clearly dicier than that: he's become the face of creature that, simply, many powerful organizations would rather see the world rid of. His Wikipedia entry says he is "constantly on the move," and some speculate that his role in publishing decrypted US military video has put him in personal danger. A controversial figure, pundits debate whether his work is reckless and does more harm than good. Amnesty International recognized him with an International Media Award in 2009.
Assange studied physics and mathematics at the University of Melbourne. He wrote Strobe, the first free and open-source port scanner, and contributed to the book Underground: Tales of Hacking, Madness and Obsession on the Electronic Frontier.
Julian Assange | Speaker | TED.com