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Gerard Ryle: How the Panama Papers journalists broke the biggest leak in history
傑拉德 · 賴爾: 國際調查記者同盟：巴拿馬文件的英雄
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傑拉德 · 賴爾（Gerard Ryle）帶領他的國際團隊揭露了巴拿馬文件，包括從巴拿馬莫薩克・馮賽卡律師事務所，所泄露出來橫跨四十多年的 1150 萬份文件，提供了前所未有的機會，一窺這些離岸公司的神秘世界。聽聽史上最大規模新聞聯合調查專案的背後故事。
Gerard Ryle - Investigative journalist
As director of the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, Gerard Ryle is one of the key figures behind the Panama Papers. Full bio
As director of the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, Gerard Ryle is one of the key figures behind the Panama Papers. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
What do you do if you had
to figure out the information
to figure out the information
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如果你必須找出 1150 萬筆
文件背後的資訊，
文件背後的資訊，
00:15
behind 11.5 million documents,
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並去判定、理解這些資訊時
你會怎麼做？
你會怎麼做？
00:17
verify it and make sense of it?
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00:20
That was a challenge
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這是去年，
00:21
that a group of journalists
had to face late last year.
had to face late last year.
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很多記者不得不面對的挑戰。
00:24
An anonymous person
calling himself John Doe
calling himself John Doe
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一名自稱「張三」的匿名者
00:28
had somehow managed to copy
nearly 40 years of records
nearly 40 years of records
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設法成功拷貝了
巴拿馬律師事務所莫薩克・馮賽卡
將近 40 年的文件
將近 40 年的文件
00:31
of the Panamanian law firm
Mossack Fonseca.
Mossack Fonseca.
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00:35
This is one of many firms around the world
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這是世界上其中一間
00:38
that specialize in setting up accounts
in offshore tax havens
in offshore tax havens
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專門在海外避稅天堂
比如，英屬維爾京群島這種地方
比如，英屬維爾京群島這種地方
00:41
like the British Virgin Islands,
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幫客戶建立銀行帳戶的公司之一，
00:43
for rich and powerful people
who like to keep secrets.
who like to keep secrets.
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他們為這些想要
隱藏秘密的權貴者提供了這樣的管道。
隱藏秘密的權貴者提供了這樣的管道。
00:48
John Doe had managed to copy
every spreadsheet from this firm,
every spreadsheet from this firm,
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張三設法從這家公司拷貝了
每一張電子表格、
每一張電子表格、
00:51
every client file,
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每一份客戶檔案、
00:53
every email,
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每一封電子郵件、
00:55
from 1977 to the present day.
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時間從 1977 年至今
00:58
It represented the biggest cache
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這是史上最大
避稅天堂系統的資訊洩密案。
避稅天堂系統的資訊洩密案。
01:01
of inside information
into the tax haven system
into the tax haven system
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01:04
that anyone had ever seen.
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01:06
But it also presented a gigantic challenge
to investigative journalism.
to investigative journalism.
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但它也為新聞調查帶來了巨大挑戰
01:11
Think about it:
11.5 million documents,
11.5 million documents,
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想像一下： 1150 萬文件
01:16
containing the secrets of people
from more than 200 different countries.
from more than 200 different countries.
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其中包含著來自 200 多個
不同國家的秘密
不同國家的秘密
01:20
Where do you start
with such a vast resource?
with such a vast resource?
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面對這麼大的資源要從何下手？
01:22
Where do you even begin to tell a story
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你要從何開始進行新聞報導
並追根究底到世上的每個角落？
並追根究底到世上的每個角落？
01:25
that can trail off
into every corner of the globe,
into every corner of the globe,
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01:28
and that can affect almost
any person in any language,
any person in any language,
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進而影響世上每一個人
來關注這件事，
來關注這件事，
01:31
sometimes in ways
they don't even know yet.
they don't even know yet.
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我們的方式可能是
他們從未見過的。
他們從未見過的。
01:34
John Doe had given the information
to two journalists
to two journalists
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張三把信息給了
01:37
at the German newspaper
Süddeutsche Zeitung.
Süddeutsche Zeitung.
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德國《南德日報》的兩位記者，
01:40
He said he was motivated
by -- and I quote --
by -- and I quote --
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他說他的動機是
——我引用一下——
——我引用一下——
01:43
"The scale of the injustice
that the documents would reveal."
that the documents would reveal."
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「這些文件能揭示這世上
不公正的規模有多大」
不公正的規模有多大」
01:48
But one user alone can never make sense
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但是一個機構不可能憑一己之力
01:50
of such a vast amount of information.
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理解如此大量的信息，
01:52
So the Süddeutsche Zeitung reached out
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所以《南德日報》聯繫了
01:54
to my organization in Washington, DC,
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我位於美國華盛頓特區的機構
01:57
The International Consortium
of Investigative Journalists.
of Investigative Journalists.
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「國際調查記者同盟」，
02:01
We decided to do something
that was the very opposite
that was the very opposite
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我們決定要做一些不同於
02:04
of everything we'd been taught
to do as journalists:
to do as journalists:
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以往記者被教導的辦事方法，
02:07
share.
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「分享」
02:08
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
02:10
By nature, investigative
reporters are lone wolves.
reporters are lone wolves.
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記者的天性就像孤狼，
02:14
We fiercely guard our secrets,
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我們兇猛地捍衛著我們的機密
02:15
at times even from our editors,
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有時候甚至不讓編輯知道，
02:17
because we know that the moment
we tell them what we have,
we tell them what we have,
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因為我們知道
一旦告訴他們我們手頭的報導
一旦告訴他們我們手頭的報導
02:20
they'll want that story right away.
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他們立刻就會想把報導佔為己有
02:22
And to be frank,
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老實說，
02:24
when you get a good story,
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當你有了一篇精彩的新聞報導
02:26
you like to keep the glory to yourself.
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你會想獨享這份榮耀，
02:29
But there's no doubt
that we live in a shrinking world,
that we live in a shrinking world,
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毫無疑問，我們正生活在
一個日漸緊密的世界，
一個日漸緊密的世界，
02:32
and that the media has largely
been slow to wake up to this.
been slow to wake up to this.
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但媒體業卻很晚
才體認到這一點。
才體認到這一點。
02:35
The issues we report on
are more and more transnational.
are more and more transnational.
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我們報導的事件越來越跨國界。
02:39
Giant corporations operate
on a global level.
on a global level.
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大型公司的跨國經營、
02:42
Environmental and health
crises are global.
crises are global.
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環境和健康問題
都是全球性的挑戰。
都是全球性的挑戰。
02:45
So, too, are financial flows
and financial crises.
and financial crises.
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同理，資金流動和
經濟危機也是如此。
經濟危機也是如此。
02:49
So it seems staggering
that journalism has been so late
that journalism has been so late
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所以，新聞界這麼晚
02:52
to cover stories in a truly global way.
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才進行全球化報導
的確令人驚訝，
的確令人驚訝，
02:55
And it also seems staggering
that journalism has been so slow
that journalism has been so slow
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同樣令人驚訝的是
新聞業竟這麼晚
新聞業竟這麼晚
02:58
to wake up to the possibilities
that technology brings,
that technology brings,
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才體認到科技所帶來的可能性，
03:02
rather than being frightened of it.
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而不是害怕科技。
03:05
The reason journalists
are scared of technology is this:
are scared of technology is this:
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記者這麼害怕科技的原因是：
03:09
the profession's largest institutions
are going through tough times
are going through tough times
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這個最大的專業機構
正在經歷困難時期，
正在經歷困難時期，
03:13
because of the changing way
that people are consuming news.
that people are consuming news.
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因為人們閱讀新聞
的方式已經改變，
的方式已經改變，
03:16
The advertising business models
that have sustained reporting are broken.
that have sustained reporting are broken.
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支持新聞業的
廣告商業模式已經瓦解。
廣告商業模式已經瓦解。
03:21
And this has plunged
journalism into crisis,
journalism into crisis,
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這使新聞業陷入困境，
03:24
forcing those institutions
to reexamine how they function.
to reexamine how they function.
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迫使這些機構
反思他們如何運作，
反思他們如何運作，
03:30
But where there is crisis,
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但有危必有機，
03:31
there is also opportunity.
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03:34
The first challenge presented
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第一個挑戰是
03:35
by what would eventually become
known as the Panama Papers
known as the Panama Papers
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最終要如何把
這份知名的巴拿馬文件
這份知名的巴拿馬文件
03:38
was to make the documents
searchable and readable.
searchable and readable.
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變得可被搜索和可被閱讀。
03:40
There were nearly five million emails,
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這裡有將近五百萬封電子郵件，
03:43
two million PDFs that needed
to be scanned and indexed,
to be scanned and indexed,
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兩百萬份需要
被掃描和索引的電子文件
被掃描和索引的電子文件
03:46
and millions more files
and other kinds of documents.
and other kinds of documents.
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還有成百萬的文件夾
和其他類型的文件。
和其他類型的文件。
03:50
They all needed to be housed
in a safe and secure location
in a safe and secure location
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他們都需要被存放在
一個安全又保密的雲端。
03:53
in the cloud.
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03:54
We next invited reporters
to have a look at the documents.
to have a look at the documents.
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我們接下來，邀請
全球的記者來看這些文件，
全球的記者來看這些文件，
03:58
In all, reporters from more
than 100 media organizations
than 100 media organizations
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總共有 76 個國家，
04:02
in 76 countries --
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超過 100 個媒體機構
的記者參與。
的記者參與。
04:04
from the BBC in Britain
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有來自英國廣播公司的、
04:06
to Le Monde newspaper in France
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法國世界報的、
04:08
to the Asahi Shimbun in Japan.
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日本朝日新聞。
04:12
"Native eyes on native names,"
we called it, the idea being,
we called it, the idea being,
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我們把這方法稱為
《用本地人的眼睛來辨識本地人的名字》
《用本地人的眼睛來辨識本地人的名字》
04:16
who best to tell you
who was important to Nigeria
who was important to Nigeria
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誰能比奈吉利亞的記者
更能辨認出奈吉利亞的重要人物？
04:19
than a Nigerian journalist?
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04:21
Who best in Canada than a Canadian?
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誰能比加拿大記者
更能說明加拿大的情況呢？
更能說明加拿大的情況呢？
04:24
There were only two rules
for everyone who was invited:
for everyone who was invited:
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被邀請來的記者只要遵守兩個規則：
04:27
we all agreed to share everything
that we found with everybody else,
that we found with everybody else,
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一是我們都同意分享
我們和別人找到的任何信息，
我們和別人找到的任何信息，
04:32
and we all agreed to publish
together on the same day.
together on the same day.
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二是我們都同意在同一天發表結果，
04:35
We chose our media partners based on trust
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我們用信任基礎，
來篩選媒體夥伴，
來篩選媒體夥伴，
04:37
that had been built up through
previous smaller collaborations
previous smaller collaborations
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這信任可能是來自於
之前的合作，
之前的合作，
04:41
and also from leads
that jumped out from the documents.
that jumped out from the documents.
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也來自於在文件中發現的線索。
04:44
Over the next few months,
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後來的幾個月，
04:45
my small nonprofit organization
of less than 20 people
of less than 20 people
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我這邊不到 20 人的非營利組織
04:48
was joined by more than 350 other
reporters from 25 language groups.
reporters from 25 language groups.
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加入了來自 25 種語言區
超過 350 名的記者。
超過 350 名的記者。
04:54
The biggest information leak in history
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有史以來最大的信息洩漏
04:55
had now spawned the biggest
journalism collaboration in history:
journalism collaboration in history:
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也催生了有史以來
最大的新聞業合作
最大的新聞業合作
05:00
376 sets of native eyes doing
what journalists normally never do,
what journalists normally never do,
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376 名記者做著
他們平常不會做的事情，
他們平常不會做的事情，
05:06
working shoulder to shoulder,
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並肩作戰
05:07
sharing information,
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分享信息，
05:09
but telling no one.
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但是不能對外公佈。
05:12
For it became clear at this point
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因為這時我們都清楚
05:13
that in order to make
the biggest kind of noise,
the biggest kind of noise,
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要造成最大程度的轟動
05:16
we first needed
the biggest kind of silence.
the biggest kind of silence.
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我們必須先保持最大程度的肅靜。
05:20
To manage the project
over the many months it would take,
over the many months it would take,
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這個項目預期要進行幾個月，
05:23
we built a secure virtual newsroom.
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我們建造了安全的
虛擬新聞編輯室，
虛擬新聞編輯室，
05:25
We used encrypted communication systems,
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我們使用加密的溝通系統，
05:28
and we built a specially
designed search engine.
designed search engine.
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我們特地設計了
一個專用的搜索引擎。
一個專用的搜索引擎。
05:30
Inside the virtual newsroom,
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在這虛擬新聞編輯室裏面，
05:32
the reporters could gather
around the themes
around the themes
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記者可以根據主題
05:34
that were emerging from the documents.
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搜集文件中出現的信息。
05:36
Those interested in blood diamonds
or exotic art, for instance,
or exotic art, for instance,
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比如對血鑽石
或者東方古董感興趣的人，
或者東方古董感興趣的人，
05:41
could share information about how
the offshore world was being used
the offshore world was being used
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可以分享這些人
是如何利用境外世界
是如何利用境外世界
05:45
to hide the trade in both
of those commodities.
of those commodities.
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來暗中進行商品的交易。
05:47
Those interested in sport
could share information
could share information
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對體育感興趣的人，
05:49
about how famous sports stars
were putting their image rights
were putting their image rights
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可以分享體育明星們是如何
把自己的肖像權
讓海外公司使用，
讓海外公司使用，
05:53
into offshore companies,
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05:54
thereby likely avoiding taxes
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從而
在他們所在的國家中避稅。
05:57
in the countries
where they plied their trade.
where they plied their trade.
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06:00
But perhaps most exciting of all
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但也許其中最激動人心的
06:01
were the number of world leaders
and elect politicians
and elect politicians
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是文件中出現的
世界領袖和民選政治人物。
06:05
that were emerging from the documents --
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06:08
figures like Petro Poroshenko in Ukraine,
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比如烏克蘭的波羅申科、
06:12
close associates
of Vladimir Putin in Russia
of Vladimir Putin in Russia
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俄羅斯的普京的親信、
06:17
and the British Prime Minister,
David Cameron, who is linked
David Cameron, who is linked
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和英國首相大衛 · 卡梅隆，
06:21
through his late father, Ian Cameron.
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他已故的父親伊恩 · 卡梅隆
出現在文件中。
出現在文件中。
06:24
Buried in the documents
were secret offshore entities,
were secret offshore entities,
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文件裏還藏著秘密的
海外實體公司
海外實體公司
06:27
such as Wintris Inc.,
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比如 Wintris 公司，
06:30
a company in the British Virgin Islands
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它在英屬維爾京群島建立，
06:32
that had actually belonged
to the sitting Icelandic prime minister.
to the sitting Icelandic prime minister.
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實際上這家公司是
當時冰島總理的公司。
當時冰島總理的公司。
06:36
I like to refer to Johannes Kristjansson,
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其中功不可沒的是
約翰內斯 · 克里斯詹森，
約翰內斯 · 克里斯詹森，
06:38
the Icelandic reporter
we invited to join the project,
we invited to join the project,
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他是受我們邀請
加入這項目的冰島記者，
加入這項目的冰島記者，
06:41
as the loneliest man in the world.
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可以被稱為這世界上最孤獨的人。
06:44
For nine months, he refused paid work
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九個月以來，他拒接有酬勞的工作，
06:46
and lived off the earnings of his wife.
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依靠妻子的收入生活。
06:49
He pasted tarps
over the windows of his home
over the windows of his home
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在冰島漫長的冬天
06:51
to prevent prying eyes
during the long Icelandic winter.
during the long Icelandic winter.
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他在自己家中的窗戶上
粘貼防水膠布，防止被窺探。
粘貼防水膠布，防止被窺探。
06:55
And he soon ran out of excuses
to explain his many absences,
to explain his many absences,
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不久他就用完了所有
他長時間缺勤的藉口。
他長時間缺勤的藉口。
06:59
as he worked red-eyed,
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他工作到眼睛充滿血絲，
日復一日，月復一月
日復一日，月復一月
07:00
night after night,
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07:02
month after month.
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07:03
In all that time, he sat on information
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長久以來，他掌握著
07:06
that would eventually bring down
the leader of his country.
the leader of his country.
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足以使他的國家領導人
下台的資訊。
下台的資訊。
07:10
Now, when you're an investigative reporter
and you make an amazing discovery,
and you make an amazing discovery,
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現在，想像你是一位記者
你正在進行驚人的調查，
你正在進行驚人的調查，
07:13
such as your prime minster can be linked
to a secret offshore company,
to a secret offshore company,
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比如發現了總理
和秘密海外公司有關係，
和秘密海外公司有關係，
07:17
that that company has a financial
interest in Icelandic banks --
interest in Icelandic banks --
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那間公司在冰島銀行
獲得了巨額的經濟利益，
獲得了巨額的經濟利益，
07:21
the very issue he's been elected on --
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而這正是他被選上的原因，
07:24
well, your instinct
is to scream out very loud.
is to scream out very loud.
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你肯定想大聲宣佈。
07:28
Instead, as one of the few people
that he could speak to,
that he could speak to,
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但是，作為能與他交談的
少數幾個人之一
少數幾個人之一
07:30
Johannes and I shared
a kind of gallows humor.
a kind of gallows humor.
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我和約翰內斯都有一種
共同的黑色幽默，
共同的黑色幽默，
07:34
"Wintris is coming," he used to say.
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他曾經說，「Wintris要來了」
（相關語:凜冬將至）
（相關語:凜冬將至）
07:36
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
07:37
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
07:41
We were big fans of "Game of Thrones."
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我們都是《權力遊戲》 的
忠實粉絲。
忠實粉絲。
07:44
When reporters like Johannes
wanted to scream,
wanted to scream,
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當像約翰內斯這樣的記者
想要大聲吶喊時，
想要大聲吶喊時，
07:47
they did so inside the virtual newsroom,
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他們會在虛擬新聞
編輯室中這樣做，
編輯室中這樣做，
07:50
and then they turned
those screams into stories
those screams into stories
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接著他們把這些呐喊
轉變成新聞報導，
轉變成新聞報導，
07:52
by going outside the documents
to court records,
to court records,
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從文件的信息查到法庭記錄
07:56
official company registers,
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查到官方的公司註冊信息
07:58
and by eventually putting questions
to those that we intended to name.
to those that we intended to name.
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最後向我們的目標人物提出質問。
08:03
Panama Papers actually allowed
the reporters to look at the world
the reporters to look at the world
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巴拿馬文件實際上讓記者
用不同於一般人的角度去觀察世界。
08:07
through a different lens
from everybody else.
from everybody else.
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08:09
As we were researching the story,
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當我們在進行新聞調查的時候
08:11
unconnected to us,
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有的新聞和我們無關，
08:13
a major political bribery scandal
happened in Brazil.
happened in Brazil.
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巴西發生了重大的政治賄賂醜聞，
08:17
A new leader was elected in Argentina.
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阿根廷投票產生了新的領導，
08:20
The FBI began to indict officials at FIFA,
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美國聯邦調查局開始起訴
國際足球聯合會的官員，
國際足球聯合會的官員，
08:24
the organization that controls
the world of professional soccer.
the world of professional soccer.
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FIFA是控制世界職業足球
比賽的組織。
比賽的組織。
08:29
The Panama Papers
actually had unique insights
actually had unique insights
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巴拿馬文件實際上
08:31
into each one of these unfolding events.
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對每件揭露的事
都有著獨特的洞察力。
都有著獨特的洞察力。
08:33
So you can imagine the pressure
and the ego dramas
and the ego dramas
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所以你可以想像我們承受著
足以摧毀我們事業的壓力和自負。
08:37
that could have ruined
what we were trying to do.
what we were trying to do.
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08:39
Any of one of these journalists,
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團隊中的每一個記者，
08:41
they could have broken the pact.
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都有可能違反協議，
08:42
But they didn't.
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但他們並沒有這樣做。
08:44
And on April 3 this year,
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今年的 4 月 3 日
08:46
at exactly 8pm German time,
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在德國時間的下午八點整
08:48
we published simultaneously
in 76 countries.
in 76 countries.
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我們在 76 個國家
同時發佈了新聞。
同時發佈了新聞。
08:52
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
09:03
The Panama Papers quickly became
one of the biggest stories of the year.
one of the biggest stories of the year.
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巴拿馬文件很快成為了
今年最轟動的事件之一。
今年最轟動的事件之一。
09:07
This is the scene in Iceland
the day after we published.
the day after we published.
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這是我們發表後
隔天在冰島的景象，
隔天在冰島的景象，
09:10
It was the first of many protests.
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這是眾多抗議遊行的開端；
09:13
The Icelandic prime minister
had to resign.
had to resign.
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冰島的總理不得不辭職，
09:15
It was a first of many resignations.
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這也是眾多領導下台的開端。
09:18
We spotlighted many famous people
such as Lionel Messi,
such as Lionel Messi,
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我們關注許多名人
比如萊昂內爾·梅西，
比如萊昂內爾·梅西，
09:21
the most famous
soccer player in the world.
soccer player in the world.
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他是全世界最著名的足球運動員。
09:24
And there were some
unintended consequences.
unintended consequences.
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也有一些我們沒有預料到的後果：
09:27
These alleged members
of a Mexican drug cartel were arrested
of a Mexican drug cartel were arrested
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這些墨西哥販毒集團的成員被捕了
09:31
after we published details
about their hideout.
about their hideout.
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因為我們公佈了他們巢穴的具體信息，
09:34
They'd been using the address
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他們一直用同一個地址
09:36
to register their offshore company.
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來註冊他們的海外公司。
09:38
(Laughter)
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2795
（笑聲）
09:43
There's a kind of irony
in what we've been able to do.
in what we've been able to do.
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我們做的事情也有諷刺的一面
09:45
The technology -- the Internet --
that has broken the business model
that has broken the business model
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科技、網路這些曾經
破壞了新聞商業模式的東西
破壞了新聞商業模式的東西
09:49
is allowing us to reinvent
journalism itself.
journalism itself.
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正在幫助我們重塑新聞業。
09:52
And this dynamic is producing
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這樣的改變已經正在進行
09:54
unprecedented levels
of transparency and impact.
of transparency and impact.
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前所未有的透明度和影響力。
09:57
We showed how a group of journalists
can effect change across the world
can effect change across the world
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我們這一群記者向世人展示了
我們將如何影響並改變全世界，
我們將如何影響並改變全世界，
10:01
by applying new methods
and old-fashioned journalism techniques
and old-fashioned journalism techniques
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藉由應用新方法
和傳統新聞技巧的結合
和傳統新聞技巧的結合
10:05
to vast amounts of leaked information.
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來擴大資訊披露的數量。
10:08
We put all-important context
around what was given to us by John Doe.
around what was given to us by John Doe.
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我們把「匿名者」提供的
重要內容放在一起。
重要內容放在一起。
10:13
And by sharing resources,
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透過資源共享，
10:14
we were able to dig deep --
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我們能挖得更深——
10:16
much deeper and longer than most
media organizations allow these days,
media organizations allow these days,
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比現在的大多數媒體機構
能挖得更深更久，
能挖得更深更久，
10:20
because of financial concerns.
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因為他們有財務上的考量。
10:23
Now, it was a big risk,
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現在，這是一個重大挑戰，
10:25
and it wouldn't work for every story,
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它不一定在每一個新聞報導中
都起積極作用，
都起積極作用，
10:27
but we showed with the Panama Papers
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但我們透過巴拿馬文件向世人展示
10:29
that you can write about any country
from just about anywhere,
from just about anywhere,
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不論你在哪裡都能報導
任何國家的新聞，
任何國家的新聞，
10:32
and then choose your preferred
battleground to defend your work.
battleground to defend your work.
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還能選擇你最感興趣的領域進行報導，
10:36
Try obtaining a court injunction
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嘗試去獲得法庭的禁令
10:37
that would prevent the telling
of a story in 76 different countries.
of a story in 76 different countries.
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這樣可以避免來自 76 國家
新聞報導的洩漏，
新聞報導的洩漏，
10:42
Try stopping the inevitable.
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嘗試阻止不可避免的事。
10:45
Shortly after we published,
I got a three-word text from Johannes:
I got a three-word text from Johannes:
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在我們發佈後不久
我收到了約翰內斯的短信：
我收到了約翰內斯的短信：
10:49
"Wintris has arrived."
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「凜冬已至」
10:52
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
10:53
It had arrived and so, too, perhaps
has a new era for journalism.
has a new era for journalism.
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也許新聞業的新時代
也已經來臨了。
也已經來臨了。
10:57
Thank you.
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謝謝
10:58
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
11:09
Bruno Giussani: Gerard, thank you.
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布魯諾 · 朱薩尼：
傑拉德，謝謝你。
傑拉德，謝謝你。
11:11
I guess you're going to send
that applause to the 350 journalists
that applause to the 350 journalists
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我想你會把這些掌聲
送給和你並肩作戰的
350 名記者，對吧。
350 名記者，對吧。
11:14
who worked with you, right?
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11:15
Now, a couple of questions
I would like to ask.
I would like to ask.
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現在，我想問幾個問題：
11:18
The first one is,
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第一個是
11:19
you'd been working
in secrecy for over a year
in secrecy for over a year
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你曾經和 350 多個
來自世界各地的同事
來自世界各地的同事
11:22
with 350-something colleagues
from all over the world --
from all over the world --
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秘密工作超過了一年，
11:25
was there ever a moment when you thought
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有沒有一個時刻你覺得
11:29
that the leak may be leaked,
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巴拿馬文件的報導已經被洩漏了，
11:31
that the collaboration may just be broken
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合作關係已經破壞了，
11:33
by somebody publishing a story?
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因為有人擅自發佈了新聞，
11:35
Or somebody not in the group
releasing some information
releasing some information
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或者有不在組織內的某個人
泄露了消息
泄露了消息
11:38
that they got to know?
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因為他們早就知道了？
11:40
Gerard Ryle: We had a series
of crises along the way,
of crises along the way,
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傑拉德 · 賴爾：我們一路以來
都有一系列的危機，
都有一系列的危機，
11:42
including when something major
was happening in the world,
was happening in the world,
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包括世界上某些重大事件發生時，
11:45
the journalists from that country
wanted to publish right away.
wanted to publish right away.
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這些國家的記者
都想要立刻披露新聞，
都想要立刻披露新聞，
但我們必須讓他們冷靜下來。
11:48
We had to calm them down.
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11:49
Probably the biggest crisis we had
was a week before publication.
was a week before publication.
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也許我們最重大的危機
是在發佈前的一週，
是在發佈前的一週，
11:53
We'd sent a series of questions
to the associates of Vladimir Putin,
to the associates of Vladimir Putin,
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我們給普京的聯繫人
發出了一系列的質問，
發出了一系列的質問，
11:57
but instead of responding,
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他們沒有回覆，
11:58
the Kremlin actually held
a press conference and denounced us,
a press conference and denounced us,
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克林姆林宮反而召開了
新聞發佈會並譴責我們，
新聞發佈會並譴責我們，
12:01
and denounced the whole thing
as being, I guess, a plot from the West.
as being, I guess, a plot from the West.
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譴責整個事件是西方的陰謀。
12:05
At that point, Putin thought
it was just about him.
it was just about him.
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當時普京以為這只是針對他的。
12:08
And, of course, a lot of editors
around the world
around the world
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當然了，全世界的編輯
12:10
were very nervous about this.
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都十分緊張，
12:12
They thought the story
was going to get out.
was going to get out.
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他們以為這個新聞就要被搶先公佈了。
12:14
You can imagine the amount
of time they'd spent,
of time they'd spent,
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你可以想想他們為此花費的時間、
12:16
the amount of resources,
money spent on this.
money spent on this.
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精力和金錢。
12:18
So I had to basically spend
the last week calming everyone down,
the last week calming everyone down,
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所以我在最後一週
必須讓每個人冷靜下來。
必須讓每個人冷靜下來。
12:21
a bit like a general,
where you're holding your troops back:
where you're holding your troops back:
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這有點像將軍在帶兵作戰，
當你要全力攻擊時，
當你要全力攻擊時，
你會向軍隊說 ，「冷靜，保持冷靜 」
12:24
"Calm, remain calm."
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12:26
And then eventually,
of course, they all did.
of course, they all did.
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當然，最後大家都做到了。
12:29
BG: And then a couple weeks ago or so,
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布魯諾 · 朱薩尼：幾個星期前，
12:31
you released a lot of the documents
as an open database
as an open database
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你把很多文件發表在公開數據庫，
12:35
for everybody to search
via keyword, essentially.
via keyword, essentially.
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所以任何人都可以
通過關鍵詞進行查找。
通過關鍵詞進行查找。
12:39
GR: We very much believe
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傑拉德 · 賴爾：我們深信
12:40
that the basic information
about the offshore world
about the offshore world
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這些離岸世界的基本信息
12:42
should be made public.
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都應該公諸於世。
12:43
Now, we didn't publish
the underlying documents
the underlying documents
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現在，我們並不是公佈那些
12:46
of the journalists we're working with.
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與我們合作的記者找出的深層信息，
12:48
But the basic information
such as the name of a person,
such as the name of a person,
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而只是公佈基本信息，比如人名、
12:51
what their offshore company was
and the name of that company,
and the name of that company,
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他們的海外公司在做什麼
和公司名字，
和公司名字，
12:54
is now all available online.
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這些都應該能在網上找到。
12:55
In fact, the biggest resource
of its kind basically is out there now
of its kind basically is out there now
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事實上，這些大型資源
現在都公佈在網路上。
現在都公佈在網路上。
13:00
BG: Gerard, thank you for the work you do.
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布魯諾 · 朱薩尼：傑拉德，
謝謝你所有的努力。
謝謝你所有的努力。
13:02
GR: Thank you.
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傑拉德 · 賴爾：謝謝。
13:03
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Gerard Ryle - Investigative journalistAs director of the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, Gerard Ryle is one of the key figures behind the Panama Papers.
Why you should listen
Gerard Ryle is the director of the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ) in Washington, DC.
When journalists at the Süddeutsche Zeitung newspaper in Germany got hold of the documents from a whistleblower, their volume and complexity pushed them to turn to the ICIJ, which brought together 376 investigative journalists from more than 100 news organizations in 76 countries.
The reporters spent months collaborating in researching and checking the documents, using protected communication channels, bespoke search engines and other specialized tools built by ICIJ, and ICIJ coordinated the release of the information across the world. It was the biggest cross-border collaboration in journalism history. The Panama Papers resulted in resignations or political outcries in Britain, Iceland, Spain, Malta and Pakistan and triggered dozens of official inquires around the world.
Before joining as the ICIJ's first non-American director in September 2011, Ryle spent more than 25 years working as an investigative reporter, author and editor in Australia and in Ireland. He has more than 60 journalism awards from six countries, including honors from the George Polk Awards, Harvard University and the University of Liege. Reporters Without Borders has described his work with ICIJ as "the future of investigative journalism worldwide."
(Photo: Le Monde / Melissa Golden)
Gerard Ryle | Speaker | TED.com