TEDxGhent
Veerle Provoost: Do kids think of sperm donors as family?
韋爾萊·普羅沃斯特: 小孩視捐精者為同一家人嗎？
Filmed:
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1,144,738 views
我們是如何定義「父母」或「家庭」呢？生物倫理學家韋爾萊·普羅沃斯特探索了非傳統家庭在這方面的問題，他們其中有些成員是來自領養、再婚、代理孕母及捐精者。在此演講，她分享了這些家庭父母及子女如何編寫他們自家的故事。
Veerle Provoost - Bioethicist
Veerle Provoost studies genetic and social parenthood in the context of donor conception. Full bio
Veerle Provoost studies genetic and social parenthood in the context of donor conception. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
What is a parent?
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什麼是父母？
00:15
What is a parent?
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到底什麼是父母？
00:19
It's not an easy question.
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這是個不容易回答的問題。
00:21
Today we have adoption,
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現在我們有領養、
00:24
stepfamilies,
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繼父（母）家庭、
00:25
surrogate mothers.
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代理孕母。
00:27
Many parents face tough questions
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許多父母面臨棘手的問題與抉擇。
00:31
and tough decisions.
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00:33
Shall we tell our child
about the sperm donation?
about the sperm donation?
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我們是否應該告訴自己孩子
有關捐精的事情？
有關捐精的事情？
00:39
If so, when?
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如果是，什麼時候說？
00:41
What words to use?
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又該如何說呢？
00:43
Sperm donors are often referred
to as "biological fathers,"
to as "biological fathers,"
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捐精者通常被視為「親生父親」，
00:49
but should we really
be using the word "father?"
be using the word "father?"
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但我們真的應該用「父親」這字眼嗎？
00:53
As a philosopher and social scientist,
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身為一位哲學家與社會學家，
00:56
I have been studying these questions
about the concept of parenthood.
about the concept of parenthood.
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我一直在研究有關
父母身份概念的問題。
父母身份概念的問題。
01:01
But today, I will talk to you
about what I learned
about what I learned
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但今天我要談的是我從與父母
及小孩交談中學到了什麼。
及小孩交談中學到了什麼。
01:04
from talking to parents and children.
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01:07
I will show you that they know
what matters most in a family,
what matters most in a family,
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我將告訴各位他們知道
一個家庭最重要的是什麼，
一個家庭最重要的是什麼，
01:11
even though their family
looks a little different.
looks a little different.
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儘管他們家庭與其他家庭有些不同。
01:15
I will show you their creative ways
of dealing with tough questions.
of dealing with tough questions.
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我將告訴各位
他們以創意來處理棘手問題的方式，
他們以創意來處理棘手問題的方式，
01:21
But I will also show you
the parents' uncertainties.
the parents' uncertainties.
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但我也將告訴各位
這些父母的疑惑。
這些父母的疑惑。
01:27
We interviewed couples
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我們訪問在 Ghent 大學附設醫院
接受生育治療的夫婦，
接受生育治療的夫婦，
01:28
who received fertility treatment
at Ghent University Hospital,
at Ghent University Hospital,
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01:33
using sperm from a donor.
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他們接受來自捐精者的精子。
01:35
In this treatment timeline,
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在這治療時間表中，
01:36
you can see two points
at which we conducted interviews.
at which we conducted interviews.
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各位可以看到
我們進行訪談的兩個時間點。
我們進行訪談的兩個時間點。
01:40
We included heterosexual couples,
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我們納入異性戀夫婦，
01:44
where the man for some reason
did not have good-quality sperm,
did not have good-quality sperm,
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男方因某種原因沒有良好品質的精子，
01:48
and lesbian couples who obviously
needed to find sperm elsewhere.
needed to find sperm elsewhere.
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以及顯然需要自別處取得精子
的女同性戀夫婦。
的女同性戀夫婦。
01:54
We also included children.
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我們也納入小孩，
01:58
I wanted to know
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我希望知道
02:00
how those children define concepts
like parenthood and family.
like parenthood and family.
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那些小孩如何界定
諸如父母身份與家庭的概念。
諸如父母身份與家庭的概念。
02:06
In fact, that is what I asked them,
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這些就是我詢問他們的事，
02:10
only not in that way.
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只是我沒有那麼直接。
02:13
I drew an apple tree instead.
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我改為畫蘋果樹，
02:17
This way, I could ask abstract,
philosophical questions
philosophical questions
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這樣我就能問些抽象、哲學性的問題，
02:20
in a way that did not make them run off.
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這樣孩子們不至於跑掉。
02:25
So as you can see,
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如各位所見，
02:27
the apple tree is empty.
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這蘋果樹是空的，
02:29
And that illustrates my research approach.
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而這正是我的研究方法 。
02:32
By designing techniques like this,
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藉著這樣的設計技巧，
02:34
I can bring as little meaning and content
as possible to the interview,
as possible to the interview,
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我盡可能不在訪談中帶入意圖與主題，
02:40
because I want to hear that from them.
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因為我希望聽到他們的心聲。
02:44
I asked them:
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我問他們：
02:46
What would your family look like
if it were an apple tree?
if it were an apple tree?
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如果你的家是一顆蘋果樹，
那會看起來像什麼？
那會看起來像什麼？
02:50
And they could take a paper apple
for everyone who, in their view,
for everyone who, in their view,
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接著，用一個紙蘋果
代表他們眼中的家庭成員之一，
代表他們眼中的家庭成員之一，
02:54
was a member of the family,
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02:56
write a name on it
and hang it wherever they wanted.
and hang it wherever they wanted.
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寫上名字，
並將它掛在他們想掛的位置，
並將它掛在他們想掛的位置，
02:59
And I would ask questions.
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然後我會問些問題。
03:02
Most children started
with a parent or a sibling.
with a parent or a sibling.
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大多數的孩子會以父母或兄弟姐妹開始。
03:05
One started with "Boxer,"
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有一位以 “布克瑟” 開始，
03:08
the dead dog of his grandparents.
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那是他祖父母一隻已逝去的狗。
03:11
At this point, none of the children
started mentioning the donor.
started mentioning the donor.
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此時，沒有任何小孩以捐精者開始，
03:16
So, I asked them about their birth story.
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所以，我詢問他們出生的故事。
03:21
I said, "Before you were born,
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我說：「在你出生前，
03:23
it was just your mom and dad,
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只有你的媽媽和爸爸，
03:25
or mom and mommy.
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或是媽媽和媽咪。
03:27
Can you tell me how you came
into the family?"
into the family?"
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你能否告訴我
你如何來到這個家庭呢？」
你如何來到這個家庭呢？」
03:31
And they explained.
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然後他們開始解釋。
03:33
One said,
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有一位說：
03:35
"My parents did not have good seeds,
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「我的父母沒有好的種子，
03:38
but there are friendly men out there
who have spare seeds.
who have spare seeds.
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但有些善心男士有多餘的種子，
03:43
They bring them to the hospital,
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他們把它們帶到醫院，
03:45
and they put them in a big jar.
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然後裝在一個大罐子裡。
03:48
My mommy went there,
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媽咪到那兒，
03:49
and she took two from the jar,
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她從罐子裡拿了兩粒，
03:52
one for me and one for my sister.
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一粒是我的，一粒是我妹妹的。
03:55
She put the seeds in her belly --
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她把種子放進她的肚子──
03:58
somehow --
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不知怎麼地──
04:00
and her belly grew really big,
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她的肚子變得很大，
04:02
and there I was."
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然後就有我了。」
04:05
Hmm.
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嗯！
04:08
So only when they started
mentioning the donor,
mentioning the donor,
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所以只在他們開始提到捐精者後，
04:12
I asked questions about him,
using their own words.
using their own words.
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我會用他們的字眼，
詢問有關捐精者的問題。
詢問有關捐精者的問題。
04:15
I said,
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我說：
04:17
"If this would be an apple
for the friendly man with the seeds,
for the friendly man with the seeds,
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「假如這蘋果
代表那位給種子的善心男士，
代表那位給種子的善心男士，
04:21
what would you do with it?"
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你會怎麼放這蘋果呢？」
04:24
And one boy was thinking out loud,
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其中一位男孩說出他的想法，
04:26
holding the apple.
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他拿著蘋果，
04:27
And he said,
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然後說：
04:29
"I won't put this one
up there with the others.
up there with the others.
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「我不會把這粒和其他的放在一起，
04:33
He's not part of my family.
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他不是我家庭的一份子。
04:36
But I will not put him on the ground.
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但我不會把他放在地上，
04:38
That's too cold and too hard.
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那裡太冷也太硬。
04:41
I think he should be in the trunk,
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我想他應該擺在樹幹上，
04:44
because he made my family possible.
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因為他造就了我的家。
04:47
If he would not have done this,
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假如不是他這樣做，
04:49
that would really be sad
because my family would not be here,
because my family would not be here,
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那會很糟榚，因為我的家將不存在，
04:53
and I would not be here."
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而我也不會在這裡。」
04:57
So also, parents
constructed family tales --
constructed family tales --
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同樣地，父母也編了家庭故事
05:01
tales to tell their children.
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來說給他們孩子聽。
05:04
One couple explained their insemination
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一對夫婦解釋他們的受精，
05:07
by taking their children to a farm
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是帶他們的小孩到一座農場，
05:11
to watch a vet inseminate cows.
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去看一位獸醫給母牛做授精。
05:15
And why not?
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為何不可呢？
05:17
It's their way of explaining;
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這是他們的解釋方式；
05:19
their do-it-yourself
with family narratives.
with family narratives.
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他們自助式的家庭故事，
05:22
DIY.
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自助式！
05:24
And we had another couple
who made books --
who made books --
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另外還有一對夫婦製作圖書──
05:26
a book for each child.
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每個小孩各一本。
05:28
They were really works of art
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它們真的是藝術品，
05:30
containing their thoughts and feelings
throughout the treatment.
throughout the treatment.
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內容有他們對
整個治療過程的想法和感受，
整個治療過程的想法和感受，
05:34
They even had the hospital
parking tickets in there.
parking tickets in there.
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甚至還有醫院的停車票在裡面。
05:37
So it is DIY:
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這就是自助式：
05:39
finding ways, words and images
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找出方法、詞語和圖像
把你的家庭故事告訴孩子。
把你的家庭故事告訴孩子。
05:41
to tell your family story to your child.
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05:45
And these stories were highly diverse,
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而這些故事非常多樣化，
05:48
but they all had one thing in common:
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但它們有一個共同點：
05:53
it was a tale of longing for a child
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就是一個渴望和冀求有小孩的故事，
05:57
and a quest for that child.
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06:00
It was about how special
and how deeply loved their child was.
and how deeply loved their child was.
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是有關他們既特別又摰愛的小孩。
06:07
And research so far shows
that these children are doing fine.
that these children are doing fine.
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研究至今顯示這些小孩都很正常，
06:11
They do not have
more problems than other kids.
more problems than other kids.
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他們並沒有比其他孩子有更多的問題。
06:14
Yet, these parents also wanted
to justify their decisions
to justify their decisions
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不過，這些父母還是想要透過敘述的故事
06:19
through the tales they tell.
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來證明他們的決定是對的。
06:21
They hoped that their children
would understand their reasons
would understand their reasons
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他們希望孩子們
會理解用這方式來建立家庭。
會理解用這方式來建立家庭。
06:24
for making the family in this way.
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06:27
Underlying was a fear
that their children might disapprove
that their children might disapprove
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潛在的原因是擔心孩子們
可能反對並排斥非親生的父母，
可能反對並排斥非親生的父母，
06:31
and would reject the non-genetic parent.
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06:34
And that fear is understandable,
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而那種擔心是可理解的，
06:37
because we live in a very heteronormative
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因為我們生活在一個
非常異性戀和基因化的社會──
非常異性戀和基因化的社會──
06:40
and geneticized society --
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06:42
a world that still believes
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這個世界依舊相信
06:43
that true families consist
of one mom, one dad
of one mom, one dad
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真正的家庭是由媽媽、爸爸
06:48
and their genetically related children.
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和他們基因相關的小孩所組成。
06:51
Well.
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那麼，
06:54
I want to tell you about a teenage boy.
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我要跟你說一個青少年男孩的事，
06:57
He was donor-conceived
but not part of our study.
but not part of our study.
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他是捐精受孕的，
但並非我們研究中的一員。
但並非我們研究中的一員。
07:00
One day, he had an argument
with his father,
with his father,
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有一天，他和他的父親起爭執，
07:03
and he yelled,
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他大嚷：
07:05
"You're telling me what to do?
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「你幹嘛指使我？
07:07
You're not even my father!"
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你根本不是我的父親！」
07:11
That was exactly what
the parents in our study feared.
the parents in our study feared.
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那正是我們研究中的父母們所擔心的。
07:15
Now, the boy soon felt sorry,
and they made up.
and they made up.
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男孩不久後感覺內疚，
接著他們就言歸於好。
接著他們就言歸於好。
07:19
But it is the reaction of his father
that is most interesting.
that is most interesting.
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但他父親的反應是最有趣的了。
07:24
He said,
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他說：
07:25
"This outburst had nothing to do
with the lack of a genetic link.
with the lack of a genetic link.
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「這次爆發衝突與缺少基因無關，
07:31
It was about puberty --
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與青春期有關──
07:35
being difficult.
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鬧彆扭。
07:36
It's what they do at that age.
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他們在這個年齡都會這樣，
07:38
It will pass."
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會度過的。」
07:41
What this man shows us
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這位男士告訴我們當事情出錯時，
07:43
is that when something goes wrong,
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07:46
we should not immediately think
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我們不應立即認為
07:48
it is because the family
is a little different.
is a little different.
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是自己家和別人家有點不同的緣故。
07:51
These things happen in all families.
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這些事情在所有家庭都會出現。
07:55
And every now and then,
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而且偶而
07:57
all parents may wonder:
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所有父母可能會懷疑：
08:00
Am I a good enough parent?
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我是一個夠好的父母嗎？
08:03
These parents, too.
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這些父母也是。
08:05
They, above all, wanted to do
what's best for their child.
what's best for their child.
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總之，他們想做對孩子最好的事。
08:09
But they also sometimes wondered:
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但有時他們也會困惑：
08:12
Am I a real parent?
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我是真正的父母嗎？
08:14
And their uncertainties were present
long before they even were parents.
long before they even were parents.
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而他們的困惑
是早在成為父母之前就存在了。
是早在成為父母之前就存在了。
08:18
At the start of treatment,
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在剛開始接受治療，
08:19
when they first saw the counselor,
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初次見輔導員時，
08:22
they paid close attention
to the counselor,
to the counselor,
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他們非常仔細聆聽輔導員所說，
08:24
because they wanted to do it right.
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因為他們希望把事情做對。
08:27
Even 10 years later,
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即使 10 年後，
08:30
they still remember
the advice they were given.
the advice they were given.
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他們仍然記得輔導員給予的建議。
08:36
So when they thought about the counselor
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所以當他們回想輔導員及他所給的建議，
08:40
and the advice they were given,
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08:42
we discussed that.
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我們討論了這些。
08:43
And we saw one lesbian couple who said,
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我們面談的一對女同性戀夫婦說：
08:48
"When our son asks us,
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「當我們的兒子問我們，
08:50
'Do I have a dad?'
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『我有父親嗎？』
08:53
we will say 'No, you do not have a dad.'
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我們會說：『不，你沒有。』
08:56
But we will say nothing more,
not unless he asks,
not unless he asks,
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但除非他問，我們不會多說什麼，
09:00
because he might not be ready for that.
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因為他可能還沒有心理準備。
09:02
The counselor said so."
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輔導員是這麼對我們說的。」
09:05
Well.
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嗯！
09:07
I don't know; that's quite different
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我不知道；
這和我們回答孩子問題的方法
有很大不同。
有很大不同。
09:09
from how we respond
to children's questions.
to children's questions.
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09:12
Like, "Milk -- is that made in a factory?"
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例如孩子問：「牛奶是在工廠製造嗎？」
09:15
We will say, "No, it comes from cows,"
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我們會說：「不，它來自母牛。」
09:18
and we will talk about the farmer,
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而且我們會談到農夫，
09:20
and the way the milk ends up in the shop.
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以及最後牛奶是怎麼到商店的。
09:23
We will not say,
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我們不會說：
09:26
"No, milk is not made in a factory."
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「不，牛奶不是在工廠製造的。」
09:32
So something strange happened here,
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這有一點奇怪，
09:34
and of course these children noticed that.
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當然孩子們也注意到了。
09:37
One boy said,
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一位男孩說：
09:39
"I asked my parents loads of questions,
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「我問我父母許多問題，
09:41
but they acted really weird.
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但他們的舉動真的很奇怪。
09:44
So, you know, I have a friend at school,
and she's made in the same way.
and she's made in the same way.
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所以我有位同學，
她和我一樣是捐精受孕的。
她和我一樣是捐精受孕的。
09:49
When I have a question,
I just go and ask her."
I just go and ask her."
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當我有問題，我就去問她。」
09:53
Clever guy.
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聰明的傢伙！
09:55
Problem solved.
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問題解決了。
09:57
But his parents did not notice,
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但他父母並沒注意到，
10:00
and it certainly was not
what they had in mind,
what they had in mind,
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而且肯定這不是他們心中盤算的，
10:03
nor what the counselor had in mind
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也不是當他們在談論開放溝通
是如何重要時，輔導員心中盤算的。
是如何重要時，輔導員心中盤算的。
10:05
when they were saying how important
it is to be an open-communication family.
it is to be an open-communication family.
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10:12
And that's the strange thing about advice.
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而那就是「建議」奇怪的地方。
10:14
When we offer people pills,
we gather evidence first.
we gather evidence first.
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當我們給人們藥丸，
我們會先收集證據。
我們會先收集證據。
10:18
We do tests,
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我們會做測試、
10:19
we do follow-up studies.
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做追踪研究。
10:21
We want to know, and rightly so,
what this pill is doing
what this pill is doing
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我們希望正確地知道
這藥丸的作用
這藥丸的作用
10:25
and how it affects people's lives.
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以及如何影響人們的生活。
10:28
And advice?
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而建議呢？
10:30
It is not enough for advice,
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對建議或來自專家合理或善意
的建議而言，都是不夠好的。
的建議而言，都是不夠好的。
10:32
or for professionals to give advice
that is theoretically sound,
that is theoretically sound,
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10:37
or well-meant.
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10:39
It should be advice
that there is evidence for --
that there is evidence for --
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建議應該是有證據支持──
10:42
evidence that it actually
improves patients' lives.
improves patients' lives.
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可真正改善病人的生活品質。
10:48
So the philosopher in me
would now like to offer you a paradox:
would now like to offer you a paradox:
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所以身為哲學家的我
現在要提供各位一個悖論：
現在要提供各位一個悖論：
10:54
I advise you to stop following advice.
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我建議各位停止遵循建議。
10:59
But, yes.
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但是，就是這樣。
11:02
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
11:06
I will not end here with what went wrong;
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我不會用「出了什麼差錯的事」來結束演講；
11:09
I would not be doing justice
to the warmth we found in those families.
to the warmth we found in those families.
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否則對那些家庭的熱情不公。
11:14
Remember the books
and the trip to the farmer?
and the trip to the farmer?
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記得那些自製圖書
和帶孩子到農場去嗎？
和帶孩子到農場去嗎？
11:17
When parents do things that work for them,
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當父母做了對他們管用的事情，
11:21
they do brilliant things.
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他們就做了明智的事。
11:24
What I want you to remember
as members of families,
as members of families,
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我希望各位記住，作為家庭的一份子，
11:28
in no matter what form or shape,
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無論以任何方式或形式，
11:30
is that what families need
are warm relationships.
are warm relationships.
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家庭所需要的是溫暖的關係。
11:37
And we do not need to be
professionals to create those.
professionals to create those.
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我們不需要成為專家才能製造那些，
11:41
Most of us do just fine,
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我們大多已做得不錯，
11:44
although it may be hard work,
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雖然可能很辛苦的。
11:47
and from time to time,
we can do with some advice.
we can do with some advice.
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有時我們可以依一些建議去做，
11:51
In that case,
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如果那樣的話，
11:52
bear in mind three things.
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請謹記三件事。
11:55
Work with advice
that works for your family.
that works for your family.
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採用對你家庭有幫助的建議去做。
12:00
Remember -- you're the expert,
because you live your family life.
because you live your family life.
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記住──你是專家，
因為你生活在你家庭中。
因為你生活在你家庭中。
12:06
And finally,
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最後，
12:08
believe in your abilities
and your creativity,
and your creativity,
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相信你自己的能力和創造力，
12:13
because you can do it yourself.
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因為你自己可以做到。
12:17
Thank you.
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謝謝大家。
12:18
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Veerle Provoost - BioethicistVeerle Provoost studies genetic and social parenthood in the context of donor conception.
Why you should listen
Veerle Provoost is a professor at the Bioethics Institute Ghent of Ghent University and a member of the Network on Ethics of Families. For her current research she coordinates a team of researchers who work on a study about genetic and social parenthood in the context of donor conception.
Using empirical research methods and Socratic conversation techniques, Provoost studies how professionals and ordinary people reason about health and how they make decisions in health-related contexts. In her courses on empirical research methods for ethics and bioethics, she teaches students how to look beyond mere experiences or general attitudes and to explore the principles and values that guide people's reasoning and decision-making. Her research shows that patients may bring their own sets of principles when making medical decisions, principles that may be very different from what medical staff anticipated and may feature around moral elements that may completely escape the attention of ethicists. For one, the moral reasoning of everyday people is centered more around relationships than around the principles that are at the core of scholarly bioethics.
In her talk TEDxGhent talk, she explains how we can gain valuable insights from families of children conceived with donor sperm and their views about what a family really is. These alternative families teach us what matters most in the decisions we all make for our children, whether or not they are genetically related to us. The parents and children she studied created their own family stories (about how their families were made) in highly diverse but very creative ways. However, some parents thought that they should strictly follow the advice of experts in their communication with their children. Because of that, they discounted their own competence. Based on her research experience, Provoost warns us for the negative effects of problematizing these families. Because no matter what a family looks like, or how it is made, parents should believe in their abilities and their creativity. As they know their families best, they are the real experts in how to find the best way to tell their own family story to their own child.
Veerle Provoost | Speaker | TED.com