TED Salon Doha Debates
Eve Pearlman: How to lead a conversation between people who disagree
伊芙波爾曼: 如何引導意見不同的人進行對談
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在一個嚴重分裂的世界上，我們要如何帶著差異性、好奇心和尊重來進行困難的對談？資深記者伊芙波爾曼提出了「對話新聞工作」：這個計畫的內容，是記者前往社會和政治分裂的核心地帶，去支持意見相佐的人進行討論。來看看一群本來不可能聚首的人——來自加州的 25 名自由派和來自阿拉巴馬的 25 名保守派——齊聚一堂談論很有爭議性的議題，會發生什麼事。波爾曼說：「跨越歧見的真實連結：這是我們的民主非常需要的良藥。」
Eve Pearlman - Journalist
Eve Pearlman is committed to the work of reinventing and reinvigorating journalistic practice. Full bio
Eve Pearlman is committed to the work of reinventing and reinvigorating journalistic practice. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
（掌聲）
00:13
So in the run-up to the 2016 election,
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在 2016 年選舉前夕，
00:16
I was, like most of us,
watching the rise in discord and vitriol
watching the rise in discord and vitriol
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我和大部分人一樣，看著
公共空間中的爭執、辛辣批評，
公共空間中的爭執、辛辣批評，
00:20
and nastiness in our public spaces.
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和惡劣手段不斷加劇。
00:23
It was this crazy uptick in polarization.
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兩極化又變得更誇張了。
00:26
It was both disheartening and distressing.
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這現象讓人既沮喪又煩惱。
00:30
And so I started thinking,
with a fellow journalist, Jeremy Hay,
with a fellow journalist, Jeremy Hay,
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於是，我和我的記者伙伴
傑若米海伊開始想，
傑若米海伊開始想，
00:33
about how we might practice
our craft differently.
our craft differently.
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我們可以如何用不同的方式
來做我們的工作。
來做我們的工作。
00:36
How we might go to the heart of divides,
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我們如何能夠進入分裂的
核心地帶，衝突發生的地方，
核心地帶，衝突發生的地方，
00:39
to places of conflict,
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00:40
like journalists always have,
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就像記者平常所做的，
00:41
but then, once there,
do something really different.
do something really different.
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但當我們到了那裡，
要用完全不同的做法。
要用完全不同的做法。
00:46
We knew we wanted to take
the core tools of our craft --
the core tools of our craft --
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我們知道，我們想要使用
這門行業的核心工具——
這門行業的核心工具——
00:49
careful vetting of information,
diligent research, curiosity,
diligent research, curiosity,
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仔細查證的資訊、
勤奮的研究、好奇心、
勤奮的研究、好奇心、
00:53
a commitment to serving the public good --
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為了大我而努力的承諾——
00:55
to serving our democracy --
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來為我們的民主盡一份心力——
做些以前沒做過的。
做些以前沒做過的。
00:56
and do something new.
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00:58
And so we mapped out this process,
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所以我們安排好了這個流程，
01:00
what we call dialogue journalism,
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我們叫它「對話新聞工作」，
01:02
for going to the heart
of social and political divides,
of social and political divides,
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要做的就是前往社會
和政治分裂的核心地帶，
和政治分裂的核心地帶，
01:05
and then, once there, building
journalism-supported conversations
journalism-supported conversations
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接著，到那裡之後，
去建立由新聞來支持的對談，
去建立由新聞來支持的對談，
01:09
between people on opposite sides
of polarizing issues.
of polarizing issues.
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針對兩極化的議題，
讓對立的兩方人馬能對談。
讓對立的兩方人馬能對談。
01:15
But how actually to do this
in a world that's so divided,
in a world that's so divided,
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但在一個如此分裂的世界，
要怎麼做到這件事？
要怎麼做到這件事？
01:19
so deeply divided --
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這分裂很深——
01:20
when we live in a world
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我們所處的世界，
01:22
in which cousins and aunts and uncles
can't talk to one another,
can't talk to one another,
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表親姑姑阿姨舅舅叔叔
都無法彼此交談，
都無法彼此交談，
01:25
when we often live in separate
and distinct news ecosystems,
and distinct news ecosystems,
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因為我們通常都生活在分裂
且立場鮮明的新聞生態系統中，
且立場鮮明的新聞生態系統中，
01:29
and when we reflexively
and habitually malign and dismiss
and habitually malign and dismiss
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我們會反射性地、
習慣性地去中傷和輕視
習慣性地去中傷和輕視
01:33
those with whom we disagree?
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我們不認同的人。
01:36
But we wanted to try.
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但我們想要一試。
01:38
And so right after the 2016 election,
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所以，2016 年選舉一結束，
01:40
in that time between the election
and the inauguration,
and the inauguration,
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在選舉和就職之間的這段期間，
01:44
we partnered with the Alabama Media Group
to do something really different.
to do something really different.
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我們和阿拉巴馬媒體集團合作，
做了件非常不同的事。
做了件非常不同的事。
01:48
We brought 25 Trump supporters
from Alabama together
from Alabama together
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我們從阿拉巴馬找了
二十五位川普支持者，
二十五位川普支持者，
01:51
in conversation with
25 Clinton supporters from California.
25 Clinton supporters from California.
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和來自加州的二十五位
希拉蕊支持者對談。
希拉蕊支持者對談。
01:55
And we brought them together
in a closed, moderated Facebook group
in a closed, moderated Facebook group
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我們把他們聚集在一起的方式，
是用非公開、受管理的臉書群組，
是用非公開、受管理的臉書群組，
01:59
that we kept open for a month.
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這個群組開設一個月。
02:03
What we wanted to do
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我們想要做的，
02:04
was to give them a place to engage
with genuine curiosity and openness.
with genuine curiosity and openness.
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是給他們一個地方讓他們能
帶著誠摯的好奇心和坦誠投入。
帶著誠摯的好奇心和坦誠投入。
02:08
And we wanted to support them
in building relationships,
in building relationships,
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我們想要支持他們建立關係，
不只是彼此間，
也和我們記者建立關係。
也和我們記者建立關係。
02:11
not just with each other
but with us as journalists.
but with us as journalists.
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02:14
And then we wanted to supply
facts and information --
facts and information --
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接著，我們想要提供
事實和資訊——
事實和資訊——
02:17
facts and information that they could
actually receive and process
actually receive and process
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他們真正能接收到並處理的資訊，
02:21
and use to undergird their conversations.
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且用來作為他們對談的基礎。
02:25
And so as a prelude to this conversation,
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所以這次對談的序幕開始了，
02:27
the first step in what we call
dialogue journalism,
dialogue journalism,
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我們所謂的對話新聞工作
踏出了第一步，
踏出了第一步，
02:30
we asked what they thought
the other side thought of them.
the other side thought of them.
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我們先問他們認為
對方怎麼看待他們。
對方怎麼看待他們。
02:35
So when we asked
the Trump supporters from Alabama
the Trump supporters from Alabama
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我們問來自阿拉巴馬的
川普支持者，
川普支持者，
02:39
what they thought the Clinton supporters
in California thought of them,
in California thought of them,
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他們認為加州的希拉蕊
支持者會怎麼看待他們，
支持者會怎麼看待他們，
02:42
this is some of what they said.
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這些是其中一些答案。
02:44
"They think we are religious
Bible thumpers."
Bible thumpers."
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「他們認為我們是
狂熱激進的基督教徒。」
狂熱激進的基督教徒。」
02:46
"That we're backwards
and hickish, and stupid."
and hickish, and stupid."
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「我們是退步、愚笨的鄉巴佬。」
「我們的院子裡都有
南部聯盟的旗幟，
南部聯盟的旗幟，
02:50
"They think that we all have
Confederate flags in our yards,
Confederate flags in our yards,
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我們有種族、性別歧視，
且沒受教育。」
且沒受教育。」
02:53
that we're racist
and sexist and uneducated."
and sexist and uneducated."
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「他們認為我們打赤腳、
懷孕，且車道沒鋪水泥。」
懷孕，且車道沒鋪水泥。」
02:55
"They think we're barefoot and pregnant,
with dirt driveways."
with dirt driveways."
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02:59
"And they think we're all prissy butts
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「說我們正經八百到惹人笑話，
03:01
and that we walk around in hoop skirts
with cotton fields in the background."
with cotton fields in the background."
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老穿著大裙撐
在棉花田前走來走去。」
在棉花田前走來走去。」
03:05
And then we asked that same question
of the Californians:
of the Californians:
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接著，我們拿同樣的
問題去問加州人：
問題去問加州人：
03:07
"What do you think
the Alabamians think about you?"
the Alabamians think about you?"
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「你認為阿拉巴馬人
會怎麼看待你們？」
會怎麼看待你們？」
03:10
And they said this:
"That we're crazy, liberal Californians."
"That we're crazy, liberal Californians."
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他們說：「他們說我們是
發瘋的自由主義加州人。」
發瘋的自由主義加州人。」
03:14
"That we're not patriotic."
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「認為我們不愛國。」
03:15
"We're snobby and we're elitist."
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「我們是勢利的菁英主義者。」
03:17
"We're godless and we're permissive
with our children."
with our children."
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「我們不信神，
並縱容我們的孩子。」
並縱容我們的孩子。」
03:20
"And that we're focused
on our careers, not our family."
on our careers, not our family."
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「我們重視的是我們的
職涯而不是家庭。」
職涯而不是家庭。」
03:23
"That we're elitist,
pie-in-the-sky intellectuals,
pie-in-the-sky intellectuals,
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「我們是菁英主義者、
畫大餅的知識分子、
畫大餅的知識分子、
03:25
rich people, Whole Foods-eating,
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有錢人、吃天然健康食品的人，
03:28
very out of touch."
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且脫離現實。」
03:31
So by asking questions like this
at the start of every conversation
at the start of every conversation
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所以，每次對談都用
類似這樣的問題來當開端，
類似這樣的問題來當開端，
03:35
and by identifying
and sharing stereotypes,
and sharing stereotypes,
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藉由找出刻板印象，
分享刻板印象，
分享刻板印象，
03:38
we find that people --
people on all sides --
people on all sides --
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我們發現大家——
不論哪一邊的人——
不論哪一邊的人——
03:40
begin to see the simplistic and often
mean-spirited caricatures they carry.
mean-spirited caricatures they carry.
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都會開始了解他們其實帶著
過分簡化且通常很狹隘的偏頗印象。
過分簡化且通常很狹隘的偏頗印象。
03:46
And in that --
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這麼做——這麼做之後，
03:47
after that, we can move
into a process of genuine conversation.
into a process of genuine conversation.
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我們就可以進入真實對談的流程。
03:52
So in the two years since that launch --
California/Alabama Project --
California/Alabama Project --
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加州／阿拉巴馬計畫
開始之後的這兩年間，
開始之後的這兩年間，
03:56
we've gone on to host
dialogues and partnerships
dialogues and partnerships
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我們已經和全國各地的媒體組織
03:58
with media organizations
across the country.
across the country.
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合作來主持對話。
04:01
And they've been about
some of our most contentious issues:
some of our most contentious issues:
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對話的主題通常是
最會引起爭論的議題：
最會引起爭論的議題：
04:03
guns, immigration, race, education.
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槍枝、移民、種族、教育。
04:07
And what we found,
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我們有個很驚人的發現：
04:09
remarkably,
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真實的對話其實是有可能的。
04:10
is that real dialogue is in fact possible.
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04:13
And that when given a chance
and structure around doing so,
and structure around doing so,
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當我們給予大家機會
和有架構的方式來做真實的對話，
和有架構的方式來做真實的對話，
04:16
many, not all,
but many of our fellow citizens
but many of our fellow citizens
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許多人，不是所有人，
但有許多我們的同胞，
但有許多我們的同胞，
04:19
are eager to engage with the other.
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都很渴望和另一方接觸。
04:24
Too often journalists
have sharpened divides
have sharpened divides
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記者們太常讓分裂加劇了，
04:27
in the name of drama or readership
or in service to our own views.
or in service to our own views.
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只是為了求戲劇效果和吸引讀者，
或是呈現我們自己的觀點。
或是呈現我們自己的觀點。
04:31
And too often we've gone to each side
quoting a partisan voice on one side
quoting a partisan voice on one side
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我們也太常到各邊去，
引述這一方的極端聲音，
引述這一方的極端聲音，
04:35
and a partisan voice on the other
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和另一方的極端聲音，
04:37
with a telling anecdotal lead
and a pithy final quote,
and a pithy final quote,
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加上生動的道聽途說線索
和簡潔的最終引述，
和簡潔的最終引述，
04:40
all of which readers
are keen to mine for bias.
are keen to mine for bias.
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讀者們就會很熱切地去挖出偏見。
04:43
But our dialogue-based process
has a slower pace and a different center.
has a slower pace and a different center.
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但我們這個以對話為基礎的流程，
步調比較慢，核心也不相同。
步調比較慢，核心也不相同。
04:49
And our work is guided by the principle
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我們這項工作的指導原則是
04:52
that dialogue across difference
is essential to a functioning democracy,
is essential to a functioning democracy,
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要讓民主能夠運作，
跨越歧見的對話是很重要的，
跨越歧見的對話是很重要的，
04:55
and that journalism and journalists
have a multifaceted role to play
have a multifaceted role to play
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且新聞工作和記者
要扮演多面向的角色
要扮演多面向的角色
05:00
in supporting that.
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來提供支援。
05:03
So how do we work?
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所以，我們要怎麼做？
05:05
At every stage,
we're as transparent as possible
we're as transparent as possible
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在每一個階段，
我們都要盡量公開透明，
我們都要盡量公開透明，
05:08
about our methods and our motives.
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讓大家知道我們的方法和動機。
05:10
At every stage, we take time
to answer people's questions --
to answer people's questions --
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在每一個階段，我們要
花時間回答大家的問題——
花時間回答大家的問題——
解釋我們在做什麼、
為何要這麼做。
為何要這麼做。
05:13
explain why we're doing what we're doing.
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05:16
We tell people that it's not a trap:
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我們告訴大家，這不是陷阱：
05:18
no one's there to tell you you're stupid,
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沒有人會告訴你說你很愚笨，
沒有人會告訴你說
你的經歷不重要。
你的經歷不重要。
05:20
no one's there to tell you
your experience doesn't matter.
your experience doesn't matter.
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05:24
And we always ask
for a really different sort of behavior,
for a really different sort of behavior,
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且我們總是會希望大家
能做出很不同的行為，
能做出很不同的行為，
05:27
a repatterning away
from the reflexive name-calling,
from the reflexive name-calling,
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把反射性的中傷謾罵
重塑成不同的行為，
重塑成不同的行為，
05:30
so entrenched in our discourse
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深根在我們的談話中，
05:31
that most of us, on all sides,
don't even notice it anymore.
don't even notice it anymore.
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讓各方大部分的人
都不會再注意到它。
都不會再注意到它。
05:37
So people often come
into our conversations a bit angrily.
into our conversations a bit angrily.
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所以，通常大家來到
我們的對談時是有點生氣的。
我們的對談時是有點生氣的。
05:41
They say things like,
"How can you believe X?"
"How can you believe X?"
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他們會說：「你怎麼能相信 X？」
05:43
and "How can you read Y?"
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和「你怎麼能去閱讀 Y？」
05:45
and "Can you believe that this happened?"
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和「你能相信發生這種事嗎？」
05:49
But generally, in this miracle
that delights us every time,
that delights us every time,
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但一般來說，每次都會
發生讓我們很開心的奇蹟，
發生讓我們很開心的奇蹟，
05:52
people begin to introduce themselves.
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大家會開始介紹他們自己。
05:54
And they begin to explain
who they are and where they come from,
who they are and where they come from,
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他們會開始解釋他們
是什麼人、來自何方，
是什麼人、來自何方，
他們會開始問彼此問題。
05:57
and they begin to ask
questions of one another.
questions of one another.
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06:00
And slowly, over time, people circle back
again and again to difficult topics,
again and again to difficult topics,
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慢慢隨著時間過去，大家會
一再繞回到難談的主題上，
一再繞回到難談的主題上，
06:04
each time with a little more empathy,
a little more nuance,
a little more nuance,
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每次都多一點同理心，
多一點細微的差別，
多一點細微的差別，
06:07
a little more curiosity.
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多一點好奇心。
06:09
And our journalists and moderators
work really hard to support this
work really hard to support this
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我們的記者和管理者
非常努力在支援，
非常努力在支援，
因為這不是辯論，不是戰爭，
06:13
because it's not a debate,
it's not a battle,
it's not a battle,
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06:15
it's not a Sunday morning talk show.
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不是星期日晨間的脫口秀。
06:18
It's not the flinging of talking points.
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不是要振振有詞地論述。
06:20
It's not the stacking of memes and gifs
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不是要拿出標題能夠證明論點的
06:22
or articles with headlines
that prove a point.
that prove a point.
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大量影片、圖片或文章。
06:25
And it's not about scoring
political victories with question traps.
political victories with question traps.
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重點也不是要用問題陷阱
來取得政治上的勝利。
來取得政治上的勝利。
06:31
So what we've learned is that our state
of discord is bad for everyone.
of discord is bad for everyone.
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所以，我們學到的是，
處於不和諧的狀態對大家都沒好處。
06:36
It is a deeply unhappy state of being.
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這種生活狀態有著很深的不快。
06:39
And people tell us this again and again.
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人們不斷這麼告訴我們。
06:42
They say they appreciate the chance
to engage respectfully,
to engage respectfully,
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他們說，他們很感謝有機會
能用這種方式互動，有尊重、
能用這種方式互動，有尊重、
06:45
with curiosity and with openness,
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有好奇心、有開放性，
06:47
and that they're glad and relieved
for a chance to put down their arms.
for a chance to put down their arms.
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且有機會能放下武裝，
讓他們很高興也鬆了一口氣。
讓他們很高興也鬆了一口氣。
06:52
And so we do our work in direct challenge
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所以，我們所做的，是直接挑戰
06:54
to the political climate
in our country right now,
in our country right now,
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美國現在的政治氣候，
06:57
and we do it knowing
that it is difficult, challenging work
that it is difficult, challenging work
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且我們在做之前就知道，
要讓背景對立的人對談，
要讓背景對立的人對談，
07:00
to hold and support people
in opposing backgrounds in conversation.
in opposing backgrounds in conversation.
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並支持他們對談，會是
很困難、很有挑戰的事。
很困難、很有挑戰的事。
07:05
And we do it knowing
democracy depends on our ability
democracy depends on our ability
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我們在做之前就知道，民主的基礎
是我們一起處理共同問題的能力。
07:08
to address our shared problems together.
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07:11
And we do this work by putting community
at the heart of our journalistic process,
at the heart of our journalistic process,
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我們在做的過程中，一直把共同體
放在這個新聞流程的中心，
放在這個新聞流程的中心，
07:15
by putting our egos to the side
to listen first, to listen deeply,
to listen first, to listen deeply,
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把自我放在旁邊，
先去傾聽，深刻地傾聽，
先去傾聽，深刻地傾聽，
07:19
to listen around
and through our own biases,
and through our own biases,
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傾聽時要繞過、通過我們的偏見，
07:22
our own habits of thought,
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我們自己的思考習慣，
07:23
and to support others in doing the same.
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並支持其他人也能同樣這麼做。
07:27
And we do this work
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我們在做之前就知道，
新聞體制正在掙扎中，
新聞體制正在掙扎中，
07:29
knowing that journalism
as an institution is struggling,
as an institution is struggling,
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07:31
and that it has always had a role to play
and will continue to have a role to play
and will continue to have a role to play
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在支持想法和觀點的交流上，
新聞一直都扮演著一個角色，
也會持續扮演下去。
也會持續扮演下去。
07:35
in supporting the exchange
of ideas and views.
of ideas and views.
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07:40
For many of the participants
in our groups,
in our groups,
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對我們團體中的成員而言，
07:42
there are lasting reverberations.
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這些迴響會一直持續。
07:44
Many people have become Facebook friends
and in-real-life friends too,
and in-real-life friends too,
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許多人成了朋友，包括
在臉書上及在真實世界上，
在臉書上及在真實世界上，
07:48
across political lines.
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跨越了政治的界線。
07:49
After we closed that first
Trump/Clinton project,
Trump/Clinton project,
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在我們結束了第一個
川普／希拉蕊計畫之後，
川普／希拉蕊計畫之後，
07:53
about two-thirds of the women went on
to form their own Facebook group
to form their own Facebook group
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大約三分之二的女性繼續成立了
她們自己的臉書群組，
她們自己的臉書群組，
07:56
and they chose a moderator from each state
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她們從每一州選出一名管理者，
07:58
and they continue to talk
about difficult and challenging issues.
about difficult and challenging issues.
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繼續談論很難談
且很有挑戰性的議題。
且很有挑戰性的議題。
08:02
People tell us again and again
that they're grateful for the opportunity
that they're grateful for the opportunity
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人們不斷告訴我們，
他們很感謝有這樣的機會，
他們很感謝有這樣的機會，
能參與這個計畫，
08:05
to be a part of this work,
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08:07
grateful to know that people
on the other side aren't crazy,
on the other side aren't crazy,
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很感謝能夠了解到
另一邊的人並沒有發瘋，
另一邊的人並沒有發瘋，
08:10
grateful that they've had a chance
to connect with people
to connect with people
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很感謝能夠有機會去連結那些
他們本來根本不會去對話的人。
08:13
they wouldn't have otherwise talked to.
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08:16
A lot of what we've seen and learned,
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儘管我們自稱是太空船媒體，
08:18
despite the fact that we call
ourselves Spaceship Media,
ourselves Spaceship Media,
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我們了解到、學習到的
許多事其實一點也不艱深。
許多事其實一點也不艱深。
08:21
is not at all rocket science.
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08:22
If you call people names,
if you label them, if you insult them,
if you label them, if you insult them,
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如果你去謾罵別人、
給別人貼標籤、侮辱別人，
給別人貼標籤、侮辱別人，
08:25
they are not inclined to listen to you.
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他們通常就不會傾聽你。
08:28
Snark doesn't help, shame doesn't help,
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冷嘲熱諷沒有幫助，
羞辱沒有幫助，
羞辱沒有幫助，
08:30
condescension doesn't help.
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優越感沒有幫助。
08:33
Genuine communication
takes practice and effort
takes practice and effort
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真誠的溝通需要練習和努力，
08:37
and restraint and self-awareness.
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也需要自制力和自我意識。
08:40
There isn't an algorithm
to solve where we are.
to solve where we are.
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我們的處境不能
用一個演算法來解決。
用一個演算法來解決。
08:44
Because real human connection
is in fact real human connection.
is in fact real human connection.
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因為真實的人類連結
事實上就是真實的人類連結。
事實上就是真實的人類連結。
08:49
So lead with curiosity,
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所以，讓好奇心來引導，
08:51
emphasize discussion not debate,
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著重討論而不是辯論，
08:52
get out of your silo,
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離開你自己的井底，
08:56
because real connection
across difference ...
across difference ...
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因為跨越歧見的真實連結……
08:59
this is a salve
that our democracy sorely needs.
that our democracy sorely needs.
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這是我們的民主非常需要的良藥。
09:04
Thank you.
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謝謝。
09:05
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Eve Pearlman - JournalistEve Pearlman is committed to the work of reinventing and reinvigorating journalistic practice.
Why you should listen
Eve Pearlman is a journalistic innovator, public speaker, writer and thought leader. A lifelong journalist with a deep commitment to serving and building communities, she cofounded Spaceship Media in 2016 with a mission to reduce polarization, build communities and restore trust in journalism.
Earlier in her career, Pearlman was a reporter, blogger, columnist and social media strategist. She is the veteran of two startups: Patch, AOL's effort at serving local news markets; and State, a London-based social media platform connecting people around shared interests and views. She holds a bachelor's from Cornell University and a master's in journalism from Northwestern University.
Eve Pearlman | Speaker | TED.com