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Halla Tómasdóttir and Bryn Freedman: The crisis of leadership -- and a new way forward
海拉·湯馬斯多特 ＆ 布林·弗里德曼: 領導力危機和新方向
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現代化的領導力是什麼樣子？企業家兼前冰島總統候選人海拉·湯瑪斯多特認為，全球的所有領導人需要改變領導方式，否則就可能會與未來的趨勢脫節。在與主持人布林·弗里德曼的談話中，她表示儘管你還沒有權力，任何人都能站出來並帶來影響。她說：「我們每個人的內在都藏著一個領導人，我們一生中最重要的工作，是要將那個領導人釋放出來。」
Halla Tómasdóttir - Change catalyst
Icelandic entrepreneur Halla Tómasdóttir believes that if you’re going to change things, you have to do it from the inside. She infused the world of finance with “feminine values," which helped her survive the financial meltdown in Iceland and nearly made her president. Full bioBryn Freedman - Editorial director and curator, TED Institute
Bryn Freedman helps those who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way. Full bio
Icelandic entrepreneur Halla Tómasdóttir believes that if you’re going to change things, you have to do it from the inside. She infused the world of finance with “feminine values," which helped her survive the financial meltdown in Iceland and nearly made her president. Full bioBryn Freedman - Editorial director and curator, TED Institute
Bryn Freedman helps those who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Bryn Freedman: So you keep
talking about leadership
talking about leadership
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布林·弗里德曼：你在談論領導時，
00:15
as a real crisis of conformity.
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總是把它說成是真正的遵從危機。
00:17
Can you explain to us
what you mean by that?
what you mean by that?
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您可以跟大家說明一下
是甚麼意思嗎？
是甚麼意思嗎？
00:19
What do you see as a crisis of conformity?
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你認為甚麼算是遵從危機？
00:22
Halla Tómasdóttir:
I think it's a crisis of conformity
I think it's a crisis of conformity
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海拉·湯馬斯多特：遵從危機就是
00:24
when we continue to do business
and lead in the way we always have,
and lead in the way we always have,
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持續依循固有的方式
來做事業和領導別人。
來做事業和領導別人。
00:28
yet the evidence is overwhelming
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但已經有非常強大的證據指出
00:31
that the world needs us
to change our ways.
to change our ways.
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世界需要我們改變做法。
00:34
So let's look a little bit
at that evidence.
at that evidence.
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我們來看一些證據。
00:37
Science has told us
that we're facing a climate crisis,
that we're facing a climate crisis,
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科學告訴我們，
我們正在面臨氣候危機，
我們正在面臨氣候危機，
00:40
yet 40 percent of board directors
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但有四成董事
00:42
don't think climate belongs
in the boardroom.
in the boardroom.
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不認為氣候是董事會
會議中要談的事。
會議中要談的事。
00:45
And we have kids marching
in the streets now,
in the streets now,
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現在有孩子走上街頭，
00:48
asking us to be accountable
for their future.
for their future.
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要求我們為他們的未來負責。
00:51
We have a crisis of inequality.
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我們有不平等危機，
00:54
We have Yellow Jackets
not just in the streets of France,
not just in the streets of France,
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黃背心不只出現在法國街頭，
00:56
but all over the world,
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全世界各地都有，
00:58
and yet we continue to see examples
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但我們仍然繼續看到
01:00
of businesses and other leaders
fueling that anger.
fueling that anger.
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企業和其他領導人
不斷在怒火上加油。
不斷在怒火上加油。
01:04
BF: Do you think
the pitchforks are coming?
the pitchforks are coming?
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布：你認為接下來會有人揭竿起義？
01:06
HT: I definitely think
this is not sustainable.
this is not sustainable.
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海：我認為這絕不是個永續的作法。
01:09
And the reason why it's so difficult
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處理這些互相關聯的
複雜危機會如此困難，
複雜危機會如此困難，
01:11
for us to deal with these complicated
crises that are interrelated
crises that are interrelated
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01:15
is that we are at the lowest levels
of trust we've ever been at.
of trust we've ever been at.
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是因為我們正處於信任的最低點。
01:19
In the UK, three percent of people
trust their government
trust their government
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在英國，只有 3% 的人相信
他們的政府會解決脫歐危機，
他們的政府會解決脫歐危機，
01:22
to solve the Brexit crisis,
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01:23
and that was in December.
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那還只是 12 月份的數字。
01:25
I think it's probably gone
down since then.
down since then.
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我認為在那之後，這個數字
很可能更走下坡了。
很可能更走下坡了。
01:27
BF: What do you think
new leadership actually looks like?
new leadership actually looks like?
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布：你認為新的領導階層
應該是什麼樣子的？
應該是什麼樣子的？
01:31
HT: We need courageous leaders,
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海：我們需要有勇氣的領導階層，
01:33
yet they have to be humble.
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但他們也要懂得謙遜。
01:34
And they have to be guided
by a moral compass,
by a moral compass,
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他們必須要有道德標準的指引，
01:37
and the moral compass is the combination
of having a social purpose --
of having a social purpose --
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而道德標準就包括
要有貢獻社會的目標——
要有貢獻社會的目標——
01:41
you can't have your license
to operate anymore
to operate anymore
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如果你沒有貢獻社會的目標，
01:44
without a purpose
that contributes to society,
that contributes to society,
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就不能取得營運的執照，
01:47
but what, to me, has been missing
from that dialogue is a set of principles.
from that dialogue is a set of principles.
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但對我而言，在意見交流中
所缺乏的是一組原則。
所缺乏的是一組原則。
01:51
We cannot just define why we exist,
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我們不能只是定義
我們為什麼存在，
我們為什麼存在，
01:54
we have to define
how we're going to do business
how we're going to do business
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我們得要定義我們要如何做生意，
01:57
and how we're going to lead.
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以及我們要如何領導。
01:58
And to us, that has to be
to solve these imminent crises:
to solve these imminent crises:
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對我們來說，那就得要
解決這些迫切的危機：
解決這些迫切的危機：
02:02
the climate crisis,
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氣候危機、
02:03
the crisis of inequality
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不平等危機，
02:05
and the crisis of trust.
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以及信任危機。
02:06
So at The B Team,
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所以，在「B 型團隊」，
02:07
we embrace sustainability, equality
and accountability as our principles.
and accountability as our principles.
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我們很樂於以永續、
平等、負責為原則。
平等、負責為原則。
02:12
BF: Do you think this whole question
of purpose is really window dressing --
of purpose is really window dressing --
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布：你認為這個目標的問題，
是否只是在修飾外表——
是否只是在修飾外表——
02:17
they're saying what they think
people want to hear,
people want to hear,
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他們只說他們認為人們想聽的話，
02:20
but they're actually not making
the fundamental changes
the fundamental changes
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但其實沒有從根本上
02:22
that are necessary?
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做必要的改變？
02:24
HT: A lot of people feel that way,
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海：很多人都有這種感覺，
02:25
and I think there's a growing
momentum behind that.
momentum behind that.
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我認為那背後有著
越來越壯大的動力。
越來越壯大的動力。
所以，我認為現在世界
正需要負責任的領導人，
正需要負責任的領導人，
02:28
So I think the world is calling
for responsible leadership now,
for responsible leadership now,
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02:31
and any leader who wants
to be around for the 21st century
to be around for the 21st century
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任何想在 21 世紀繼續領導的人，
02:34
really needs to start thinking
courageously and holistically
courageously and holistically
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就真的必須開始做
勇敢、整體的思考，
勇敢、整體的思考，
02:37
how they're going
to be part of the solution
to be part of the solution
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思考他們要如何成為
解決方案的一部分，
解決方案的一部分，
02:39
and not window-dress anymore.
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而不再只是修飾外表。
02:41
You have to do it for real now.
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現在你得要玩真的了。
02:42
BF: Do you see anybody
out there who's doing it
out there who's doing it
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布：目前外面有沒有哪個人正在
02:45
in a way that you think
is actually effective
is actually effective
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用你認為有效的方式在做這件事？
02:48
and has a real, long-term impact?
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並且具有切實、長期的影響？
02:50
HT: Fortunately, we have
some great leaders out there.
some great leaders out there.
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海：很幸運地，我們的確
有些傑出的領導人。
有些傑出的領導人。
02:53
And just to give one example,
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舉個例子，
02:54
Emmanuel Faber, who's one of the newest
members of The B Team,
members of The B Team,
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伊曼紐爾·法伯，他是
B 型團隊最新的成員之一，
B 型團隊最新的成員之一，
02:57
he's the CEO of Danone,
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他是達能的執行長，
02:59
the world's largest yogurt-maker
and major food company --
and major food company --
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達能是全世界最大的優格製造商
及主要的食物公司——
及主要的食物公司——
03:01
a real global company.
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一家真正的全球企業。
03:03
He's so committed to sustainability
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他致力於永續發展，
03:05
that he's not only changing the ways
of his own business,
of his own business,
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不僅改變了他自己企業內的做法，
03:08
but his entire supply chain.
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還改變了整個供應鏈。
03:10
He's so committed to equality
that when he took on as CEO
that when he took on as CEO
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他對平等非常投入，
當他接下執行長時，
當他接下執行長時，
03:13
and he said gender balance matters,
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他說性別平衡很重要，
03:14
he created a gender-balanced
executive team
executive team
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他創建了一個性別
平衡的領導團隊，
平衡的領導團隊，
03:17
and gave men and women
equal maternity and paternity leave.
equal maternity and paternity leave.
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並且提供男性和女性平等的產假。
03:21
He's so committed to accountability
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他也致力於承擔責任，
03:23
that he turned his US operations
into a B Corporation.
into a B Corporation.
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所以他將美國的事業
轉型成為了 B 型企業。
轉型成為了 B 型企業。
03:27
Now many of you may not know what that is,
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許多人可能不知道
B 型企業是什麼，
B 型企業是什麼，
03:29
but that's a company
that holds itself responsible
that holds itself responsible
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那是一種共益企業，
它不僅謀求利益，
它不僅謀求利益，
03:31
for not just profit but its impact
on people and the planet,
on people and the planet,
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還要為該企業對人
和地球造成影響負責，
和地球造成影響負責，
03:35
and transparently reports
on their performance on all of that.
on their performance on all of that.
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並且提供透明公開的報告來
說明他們在這些方面的表現。
說明他們在這些方面的表現。
03:38
It's the largest B Corp in the world.
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達能是世界上最大的 B 型企業。
03:40
So to me, that's holistic,
courageous leadership,
courageous leadership,
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所以我認為那是整體、
勇敢的領導方式，
勇敢的領導方式，
03:43
and it's really the vision
we all need to hold.
we all need to hold.
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也是我們都需要有的願景。
03:46
BF: Is this "Back to the Future"?
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布：這是《回到未來》嗎？
03:47
I mean, I wonder,
when I think about companies --
when I think about companies --
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我是指，當我想到那些公司——
03:50
Anheuser-Busch comes to mind in America --
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在美國我想到的是安海斯-布希 ——
03:53
a 100-year-old company
that invested in its community,
that invested in its community,
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這間有百年歷史的公司
貢獻它的社區，
貢獻它的社區，
03:56
that gave a living wage
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付出能維持一定生活水平的工資，
03:57
before it ended up, you know,
losing and getting sold.
losing and getting sold.
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但最後落得賠錢，然後賣掉了。
04:00
Are we really looking now for companies
that are global and community citizens,
that are global and community citizens,
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現在我們在找的是兼顧
全球化和地方性的公司，
全球化和地方性的公司，
04:05
or is that something that is not
even useful anymore?
even useful anymore?
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難道這種做法現在已經不管用了？
04:09
HT: Well, you can do this for the reason
that it's risky, actually,
that it's risky, actually,
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海：其實你可以因為風險太高
04:13
to continue without doing
the right thing now.
the right thing now.
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而不做這些共益的事情。
04:15
You can't attract the right talent,
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但你就吸引不到合適的人才，
04:17
you can't attract customers
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吸引不到顧客，
04:18
and increasingly,
you won't be able to attract capital.
you won't be able to attract capital.
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你也愈來愈吸引不到資金。
04:21
You might do it for risk reasons,
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你可能因為風險，
你可能為了商機而朝共益發展，
04:22
you might do it for business
opportunity reasons,
opportunity reasons,
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04:25
because this is where the growth is,
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因為成長就在這裡，
04:27
which is why many leaders
are doing the right thing.
are doing the right thing.
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這就是為什麼許多
領導人都在做這件事。
領導人都在做這件事。
04:30
But at the end of the day,
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但到頭來，
04:31
we need to ask ourselves:
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我們得要捫心自問：
04:33
"Who are we holding
ourselves accountable for?"
ourselves accountable for?"
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「我們要為誰負責？」
04:36
And if that isn't the next generation,
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如果答案不是下一代，
04:37
I don't know who.
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我就不知道是誰了。
04:39
So I want to just make very clear,
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所以，我想要說清楚，
04:41
because we tend to think about leadership
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因為我們會認為領導人
04:43
as only those who sit
in positions of power.
in positions of power.
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指的只有那些坐擁權力的人。
04:46
To me, leadership is not at all like that.
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我心中的領導人完全不是那樣的。
04:48
There's a leader inside
every single one of us,
every single one of us,
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我們每個人的內在
都藏著一個領導人，
都藏著一個領導人，
04:51
and our most important work in life
is to release that leader.
is to release that leader.
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我們一生中最重要的工作，
是要將那個領導人釋放出來。
是要將那個領導人釋放出來。
04:55
And I think one of the greatest
global examples we have
global examples we have
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全世界有一個偉大的例子，
04:57
of someone who didn't --
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這個人沒有——
05:00
no one gave her power --
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沒有人給她權力——
05:01
is the 16-year-old girl
called Greta Thunberg.
called Greta Thunberg.
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她是個十六歲女孩，
名叫格蕾塔·桑伯格。
名叫格蕾塔·桑伯格。
05:04
She's from Sweden,
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她來自瑞典，
05:05
and a few years ago, she really became --
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幾年前，她變得——
05:08
she has Asperger's,
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她有亞斯伯格症候群，
05:09
and she became passionate
about our climate crisis --
about our climate crisis --
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她變得非常熱衷於
我們的氣候危機——
我們的氣候危機——
她學習了所有相關資訊。
05:12
learned everything about it.
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05:13
And faced with the evidence,
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面對那些證據，
05:14
she just felt so disappointed
in her leadership
in her leadership
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她對領導階層非常失望，
05:17
that she started striking
in front of the Swedish parliament.
in front of the Swedish parliament.
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她便開始在瑞典國會前罷課抗議。
05:21
And now she has started a global movement,
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現在她已帶起了一項全球運動，
05:23
and hundreds and thousands
of school kids are out in the streets
of school kids are out in the streets
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成千上百的學校學生走上街頭，
05:26
asking us to hold ourselves
accountable for their future.
accountable for their future.
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要求我們對他們的未來負責。
05:29
No one gave her that authority,
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沒有人給予她那權力，
05:32
and she now speaks to the leaders
of the world, heads of state,
of the world, heads of state,
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現在她可以和世界領導人、
國家領袖對話，
國家領袖對話，
05:35
and really is impacting the world.
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真正在影響世界。
05:37
So I really think that when we think
about leadership today,
about leadership today,
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我真的認為，當我們
想到現今的領導人時，
想到現今的領導人時，
05:41
it can't be defined
to those in positions of power
to those in positions of power
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不能將他們定義為坐擁權力的人，
05:44
though they have disproportionately
greater responsibility.
greater responsibility.
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雖然他們的責任更為巨大。
05:47
But all of us need to think about,
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但我們所有人都需要想想：
05:49
"What am I doing?"
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「我在做什麼？」
05:50
"How am I contributing?"
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「我正在如何做出貢獻？」
05:52
And we need to release that leader inside
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我們必須釋放自己
內在的那個領導人，
內在的那個領導人，
05:54
and actually start making
the positive impact
the positive impact
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開始對世界造成正面的影響，
05:56
this world is calling for right now.
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造成世界正需要的影響。
05:58
BF: But we have such
hierarchical leadership.
hierarchical leadership.
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布：但我們的領導型態是階層式的。
06:01
I mean, I understand what you're saying --
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我是說，我瞭解你的意思——
06:03
it's nice to release the leader inside --
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能把內在的領導人
釋放出來是很好——
釋放出來是很好——
06:05
but in these corporations,
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但事實上這些企業的組織架構
06:07
the truth is, it's extremely hierarchical.
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都是極度垂直化的階層。
06:09
What can companies do
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公司能做什麼，
06:11
to create less vertical
and more horizontal relationships?
and more horizontal relationships?
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來減少垂直階層，
創造更扁平的組織結構？
創造更扁平的組織結構？
06:16
HT: Well, I'm a big believer
and I've long been passionate
and I've long been passionate
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海：我非常相信這一套，
我長久以來對消彌性別落差
都帶有很大的熱忱。
都帶有很大的熱忱。
06:19
about closing the gender gap,
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我堅信性別平衡的領導
是正確的方法，
是正確的方法，
06:20
and I really believe gender-balanced
leadership is the way to go
leadership is the way to go
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06:24
in order to embrace a leadership style
that has been shown to be more powerful,
that has been shown to be more powerful,
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這是一種公認更強大的領導模式，
那就是當男性和女性都能全心接受
06:29
and that's when both men and women embrace
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06:31
both masculine and feminine values.
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男性化和女性化都有價值時。
06:34
It actually is proven in research
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已經有研究證明，
06:35
that that's the most
effective leadership style.
effective leadership style.
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那是最有效的領導模式。
06:39
But I'm increasingly now thinking
about how we close the generational gap,
about how we close the generational gap,
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我現在越來越常思考
我們要如何處理世代落差，
我們要如何處理世代落差，
06:43
because look at these young children
in the streets around the world --
in the streets around the world --
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因為看著全世界街頭的
這些年輕孩子——
這些年輕孩子——
06:46
they're asking us to lead.
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他們在要求我們領導。
06:48
Kofi Annan used to say,
"You're never too young to lead."
"You're never too young to lead."
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科菲·安南曾說過：
「領導永遠不嫌年輕。」
「領導永遠不嫌年輕。」
06:51
And then he would add,
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他會再加上這句：
06:53
"Or too old to learn."
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「學習永遠不嫌老。」
06:54
And I think we have now entered this era
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我認我們已經跨入了一個世代，
06:57
where we need the wisdom
of those with experience,
of those with experience,
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在此世代中，我們
既需要經驗人士的智慧，
既需要經驗人士的智慧，
07:01
but we need the digital natives
of the young generation
of the young generation
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也需要年輕的數位原生世代的技能，
07:04
to co-mentor or to mentor us
just as much as we can help
just as much as we can help
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來互相指導，或指導我們，
就像我們能用前人的經驗
幫助他們一樣。
幫助他們一樣。
07:08
with wisdom from the older people.
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07:11
So it's a new reality,
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這是一種新的現實，
07:12
and these old, sort of hierarchical
ways to think about things,
ways to think about things,
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那些老舊、階級式的思考方式
07:15
they're increasingly coming
under pressure in this reality.
under pressure in this reality.
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會變得越來越禁不起
這種現實的考驗。
這種現實的考驗。
07:18
BF: And you've actually called
that the hubris syndrome.
that the hubris syndrome.
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布：你曾說過那就是所謂的
「自大症候群」。
「自大症候群」。
07:21
Can you talk about that?
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能多談談嗎？
07:22
HT: Well, yes, I think hubris
is our cancer in leadership.
is our cancer in leadership.
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海：當然，我認為自大
是領導人的毒瘤。
是領導人的毒瘤。
07:27
That's when leaders
think they know it all,
think they know it all,
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就是領導人認為自己知道一切，
07:29
can do it all, have all the answers
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能處理所有事，
知道所有問題的答案，
知道所有問題的答案，
07:31
and don't think they need
to surround themselves
to surround themselves
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認為他們身邊不需要
能夠學習的對象來讓他們改進。
能夠學習的對象來讓他們改進。
07:33
with people who will make them better,
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這些學習的對象可能
更會是女性、年輕人，
更會是女性、年輕人，
07:35
which to me would, in some cases,
be more women and younger people
be more women and younger people
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07:38
and people who are diverse
and have different opinions in general.
and have different opinions in general.
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以及更多元化、
有更多不同想法的人。
有更多不同想法的人。
07:42
Hubris syndrome is so present
in leadership still,
in leadership still,
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自大症候群在領導人中還很普遍，
07:46
and we know many examples of them,
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這樣的例子不勝枚舉。
07:47
I don't need to name them.
And the problem with that --
And the problem with that --
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我不需要說出是誰，問題在於——
07:50
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
07:51
Yeah, we know them -- all over the world,
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是的，我們都知道是誰——
全世界都有，
全世界都有，
07:54
not just in this country.
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不只這個國家有。
07:55
But that kind of leadership
doesn't unleash leaders in others.
doesn't unleash leaders in others.
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但這種領導人無法釋放
別人內在的領導人。
別人內在的領導人。
08:00
No one person,
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沒有任何單一的個人，
08:02
or no one sector even has the solutions
we now need to come up with --
we now need to come up with --
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也沒有任何單一業界
有我們需要的解決方案——
有我們需要的解決方案——
08:06
the creativity and collaboration we need.
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我們所需要的創造力和合作精神。
08:10
The bold and the brave leadership
we need to come up with solutions
we need to come up with solutions
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我們需要的大膽和有勇氣的領導力，
08:14
that cross government, private sector,
civil society, young people, older people,
civil society, young people, older people,
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是由各個政府、業界、民營組織，
不論是年輕人或年長者，
不論是年輕人或年長者，
08:19
people of all different backgrounds
coming together is the way
coming together is the way
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各種不同背景的人共同提出解決方案，
才能夠解決我們眼前所面臨的問題。
才能夠解決我們眼前所面臨的問題。
08:23
to solve the issues
that are in front of us.
that are in front of us.
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08:25
BF: Do you see that kind of leadership
coming from the bottom-up
coming from the bottom-up
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布：您認為那是來自從下而上的領導，
08:29
or the top-down,
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或是從上而下的領導？
08:30
or do you think a crisis
is going to force us
is going to force us
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還是會有危機出現，迫使
我們重新檢視這一切？
我們重新檢視這一切？
08:33
into a reexamination of all of this?
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08:35
HT: Well, as someone who lived through
the most infamous financial meltdown
the most infamous financial meltdown
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海：我經歷過我的祖國冰島
聲名狼藉的金融危機，
聲名狼藉的金融危機，
08:39
in my home country, Iceland,
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08:40
I hope we don't need another one
to learn or to wake up.
to learn or to wake up.
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我不希望再經歷另一個危機
才學到教訓，才覺醒。
才學到教訓，才覺醒。
08:44
But I do see that we can't choose
one or the other.
one or the other.
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但我確知不能在
由下而上或由上而下
兩種領導方式中擇一。
兩種領導方式中擇一。
08:47
We do have to transform the way we lead --
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現有的領導方式必須
經過一番轉型——
經過一番轉型——
08:52
from the top, the boardroom, the CEOs --
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由最高階層、董事會、
執行長領導的方式，
執行長領導的方式，
08:54
we really do have to transform that,
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我們有必要改變正種方式，
08:56
but increasingly, we will transform that,
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我們也會逐漸做到，
08:58
because we have these social
movements coming from the bottom
movements coming from the bottom
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因為我們有來自底層和整個社會
09:01
and throughout society.
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所發起的社會運動。
09:03
And the solutions exist.
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而且一定會有解決方案，
09:05
The only thing that's missing is will.
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唯一缺少的意志力。
09:08
So if we just all find a way to embrace
a moral compass of our own
a moral compass of our own
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如果我們都能夠找到一種方法
來全心遵循自己的道德標準，
來全心遵循自己的道德標準，
09:14
to figure out why we exist
and how we're going to lead,
and how we're going to lead,
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想清楚我們為什麼存在，
我們該如何領導，
我們該如何領導，
09:19
and if we embrace courage
and humility in equal amounts,
and humility in equal amounts,
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如果我們也能全心付出
同等的勇氣和謙遜，
同等的勇氣和謙遜，
09:23
each one of us can be part
of this 10-year period
of this 10-year period
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那麼我們每個人都能在十年間
09:28
where we can dramatically transform
the world we live in,
the world we live in,
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促成我們所居住世界的重大轉型，
09:31
and make it just,
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讓這個世界變得公正，
09:32
and make it about humanity
and not just the financial markets.
and not just the financial markets.
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更重視人道的考量，
而不只是以金融市場為前提。
而不只是以金融市場為前提。
09:36
BF: Well, we have a lot of people here
who I bet have questions for you,
who I bet have questions for you,
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布：我猜在座有很多人
都有問題想問您，
都有問題想問您，
09:39
and we have a few minutes for questions,
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我們還有幾分鐘的時間來回答問題。
09:41
so is there anybody that would like
to ask Halla a question?
to ask Halla a question?
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有人想問海拉問題的嗎？
09:46
Audience: Hello, my name is Cheryl.
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觀眾：您好，我叫雪蘿。
09:48
I'm an aspiring leader,
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成為領導者是我的抱負，
09:50
and I have a question about how you lead
when you have no influence.
when you have no influence.
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我想問，在沒有影響力時，
你要如何領導？
你要如何領導？
09:57
If I'm just an analyst,
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如果我只是一名分析師，
09:59
and I want to speak to senior management
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我想和管理高層對話，
10:01
about a change that I feel
will affect the whole company,
will affect the whole company,
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討論我認為對公司
有整體影響的改革，
有整體影響的改革，
10:04
how do I go about changing their minds
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我該如何改變他們的想法？
10:06
when they feel as if they've had
relationships that are set,
relationships that are set,
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尤其是當他們覺得組織的
人際架構已經是固定的，
人際架構已經是固定的，
10:10
that their way of business is set?
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他們的業務模式也是固定的。
10:13
How do you change minds
when you have no influence?
when you have no influence?
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這種情況下，你如何在沒有
影響力時改變人們的想法？
影響力時改變人們的想法？
10:16
HT: Well, thank you very much
for that fantastic question.
for that fantastic question.
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海：非常感謝你提出
這麼精彩的問題。
這麼精彩的問題。
10:19
So sometimes people
at the top won't listen,
at the top won't listen,
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有時候最高層的人不會聽別人的，
10:21
but it's interesting that with the low
trust we have in society right now,
trust we have in society right now,
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但有趣的是，最近有研究顯示，
儘管現在社會中的信任度很低，
儘管現在社會中的信任度很低，
10:25
the greatest trust we have
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員工和雇主間的信任感
反而是最強的。
反而是最強的。
10:27
is actually between the employee
and the employer,
and the employer,
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10:31
according to recent research.
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1639
10:32
So I think that relationship
may be the most powerful way
may be the most powerful way
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所以我認為這樣的關係
是促成舊有的行事方式出現
實質轉型最強大的力量。
實質轉型最強大的力量。
10:36
to actually transform
the way we do things.
the way we do things.
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10:39
So I would start by trying to build
a coalition for your good idea.
a coalition for your good idea.
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我會試著建立一個支持
你想法的聯盟，作為開端。
你想法的聯盟，作為開端。
10:43
And I don't know a single leader today
who will not listen to a concern
who will not listen to a concern
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而且現在的領導人當中，
對於多數員工共同關心的問題，
對於多數員工共同關心的問題，
不會充耳不聞的。
10:49
that many of their employees hold.
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10:51
I'll give you an example
from another B Team leader,
from another B Team leader,
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我用另一個 B 型企業
領導人來舉例，
領導人來舉例，
馬克·本尼奧夫，
Salesforce 的執行長。
Salesforce 的執行長。
10:54
Marc Benioff, the CEO of Salesforce.
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10:56
He's really been outspoken
on homelessness in San Francisco,
on homelessness in San Francisco,
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3316
他對舊金山無家可歸的問題、
10:59
on LGBTQI rights,
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4152
同性、雙性、變性等
少數性別族群權利的問題，
少數性別族群權利的問題，
11:03
and all of the things
that he's been standing up for,
that he's been standing up for,
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以及其他所有他關心的議題，
都直言無諱地發表強烈的意見。
都直言無諱地發表強烈的意見。
11:06
he does because his employees
care about them.
care about them.
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他這樣做是因為
他的員工關心這些問題。
他的員工關心這些問題。
11:09
So don't ever think you don't have power
if you don't sit in a position of power.
if you don't sit in a position of power.
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所以不要因為不在權力的位子上，
就覺得自己沒有力量，
就覺得自己沒有力量，
11:14
Find the way to go convince him ...
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你要找方法去說服他／她。
11:16
or her.
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1166
11:17
And Marc, for example, was convinced
to close the gender pay gap by two women
to close the gender pay gap by two women
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4615
舉其中一個例子，
在馬克組織中的兩位女性員工
說服他消除兩性薪資差距，
說服他消除兩性薪資差距，
11:22
who worked inside of his organization,
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11:24
who told him, "We have a gender pay gap."
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她們告訴馬克：「公司裡有
男女同工不同酬的情況。」
男女同工不同酬的情況。」
11:26
He didn't believe it;
he said, "Bring me the data."
he said, "Bring me the data."
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他不相信，並說：「給我看數據。」
11:29
They did, and he was smart enough to know
he needed to do something about it,
he needed to do something about it,
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她們照做了，馬克有足夠的睿智，
知道他必須解決這個問題。
知道他必須解決這個問題。
他是第一批主動解決
這個問題的科技公司領導人。
這個問題的科技公司領導人。
11:32
and was one the first tech leaders
to step up and do so voluntarily.
to step up and do so voluntarily.
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11:36
So don't ever think
that you don't have power,
that you don't have power,
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所以儘管你不是在權力的位子上，
11:39
even if you don't sit
in a position of power,
in a position of power,
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絕對不要認為你沒有力量，
11:41
but find other people to support you
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你要找其他人來支持你，
11:44
and make the case.
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讓你的議題受到重視。
11:47
BF: Thank you.
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布：謝謝。
11:49
Anybody else? Any other questions?
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還有其他問題嗎？
11:50
Audience: Hi, I'm overwhelmed
by fascination
by fascination
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觀眾：我覺得您剛所說的一切
都太棒了，謝謝您。
都太棒了，謝謝您。
11:52
with everything you're saying,
so thank you.
so thank you.
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我只是想問，意見、
想法、背景的多元性，
想法、背景的多元性，
11:55
I just wanted to ask how, like,
diversity in opinion and thought
diversity in opinion and thought
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11:59
and also background
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12:01
has impacted your leadership ability.
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如何影響您的領導能力？
12:03
And what do you think is the barricade
that is limiting the overflow of diversity
that is limiting the overflow of diversity
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還有，您認為在所有商業環境中
是甚麼阻擋多元性的擴大？
是甚麼阻擋多元性的擴大？
12:08
in all business settings,
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12:10
and what do you think can impact
the change in that setting
the change in that setting
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以及，在那樣的環境中，有甚麼
會影響您所說的領導模式的改變？
會影響您所說的領導模式的改變？
12:13
but also to disrupt the overflow
of generations of people staying in place?
of generations of people staying in place?
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而當今環境充斥著一代代都還待在
原地的人，有甚麼能阻斷這個趨勢？
原地的人，有甚麼能阻斷這個趨勢？
12:19
And what do you think is the next step
to breaking several glass ceilings?
to breaking several glass ceilings?
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還有，您認為要打破各種階級間的
無形障礙，下一步該怎麼做？
無形障礙，下一步該怎麼做？
12:24
BF: We're going to do an entire Salon
just on that question.
just on that question.
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布：我們可能需要另開一個集會
來專門討論這些問題。
來專門討論這些問題。
12:27
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
12:28
HT: I think Bryn said it well,
but let me try and touch on it.
but let me try and touch on it.
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海：布林說得很對，我來試著回答。
12:31
So the way I see gender,
it is a spectrum --
it is a spectrum --
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我是怎麼看待性別的呢？
我認為性別像是光譜——
我認為性別像是光譜——
12:36
you know, men also have gender.
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別忘了男性也是有性別的，
12:38
We sometimes forget about that.
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我們有時會忘了這點。
12:40
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
12:41
We sometimes forget about that.
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我們有時會忘了這點。
12:43
And I actually played a very masculine
woman early in my career,
woman early in my career,
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我在職涯早期，其實扮演著一個
非常男性化的女性角色，
非常男性化的女性角色，
12:46
because those were the rules of the game.
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因為那是當時的遊戲規則。
我透過那種方式獲得些許成功。
12:48
And I achieved some success with it,
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很幸運地，我達到了一個位置，
12:50
but fortunately, I got to a place
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讓我開始全心接受自己
女性化的一面。
女性化的一面。
12:52
where I started embracing
my feminine side as well.
my feminine side as well.
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但我還是要說，那些最傑出的領導人
能同時接受女性化和男性化這兩面。
能同時接受女性化和男性化這兩面。
12:54
But I would still say
that the best leaders embrace both,
that the best leaders embrace both,
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12:57
both women and men.
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12:58
But I see gender, also,
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但我也認為，
13:00
as one of the most powerful levers
to shift values in culture.
to shift values in culture.
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性別是轉變文化價值觀
最有利的槓桿。
最有利的槓桿。
13:04
So the reason I'm so passionate
about women in leadership
about women in leadership
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我之所以對女性領導人的
話題充滿熱忱，
話題充滿熱忱，
13:07
and believe that balance is needed
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並且相信領導階層需要男女平衡，
13:10
is because right now, our definition
of success is incredibly masculine.
of success is incredibly masculine.
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是因為我們現在對成功的
定義還是過於男性化，
定義還是過於男性化，
13:16
It's about financial profit alone
or economic growth alone,
or economic growth alone,
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成功還只是利潤或經濟成長。
13:20
and we all know that we need
more than money.
more than money.
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我們都知道，我們需要的不只是錢。
13:23
I mean, we need wellness:
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我是說，我們需要健康：
13:25
well-being of people,
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人們都安康幸福。
13:27
and there is no future
beyond the well-being of our planet.
beyond the well-being of our planet.
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如果我們的世界不安樂，
我們就沒有未來。
我們就沒有未來。
13:31
So I think gender may very well be
one of the most powerful levers
one of the most powerful levers
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所以我認為性別很可能是
最有利的槓桿，
最有利的槓桿，
13:35
to help all of us shift
our economic and social systems
our economic and social systems
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來幫助我們所有人將經濟
和社會系統變得更具包容力。
和社會系統變得更具包容力。
13:38
to be more welcoming.
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13:40
And the answer to your last part --
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關於你問題的最後一部分——
13:41
it's so complicated, but let me try
to give you a short one.
to give you a short one.
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這個問題很複雜，
讓我試著用簡短的方式來回答。
讓我試著用簡短的方式來回答。
13:45
I believe that the way talent
and consumption is shifting
and consumption is shifting
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我相信人才和消費模式的轉變，
13:51
is going to increasingly get companies
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會讓企業愈來愈想要在領導階層中
增加一些多元性的差異，
增加一些多元性的差異，
13:54
to look at adding difference
into their leadership,
into their leadership,
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13:58
because sameness is not working --
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因為單一化已經不合用了——
14:00
BF: And difference is a superpower.
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布：差異是一種超能力。
14:02
HT: Difference is a superpower.
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海：沒錯，差異是一種超能力。
14:04
BF: Thank you very much.
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布：非常謝謝大家。
14:05
Halla, thank you so much,
I wish we could talk to you all day.
I wish we could talk to you all day.
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海拉，非常感謝您，
我真希望我們有一整天繼續聊。
我真希望我們有一整天繼續聊。
（掌聲及歡呼聲）
14:08
(Applause and cheers)
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14:09
HT: Thank you.
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海：謝謝。
14:10
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Halla Tómasdóttir - Change catalystIcelandic entrepreneur Halla Tómasdóttir believes that if you’re going to change things, you have to do it from the inside. She infused the world of finance with “feminine values," which helped her survive the financial meltdown in Iceland and nearly made her president.
Why you should listen
Tómasdóttir's philosophy is simple: (1) the challenges we're facing today won't be solved by testosterone alone; (2) the world would be a better, safer, more sustainable place if we could infuse finance, business and politics with more gender balance; and (3) it's easier to change things from the inside.
True to this philosophy, Tómasdóttir co-founded Audur Capital in 2008, the world's first investment firm based on "feminine values." Audur was one of few financial companies in Iceland to survive the crash. Tómasdóttir has since been an active change catalyst, advocating for principle-based leadership and more women around decision-making tables.
In 2016, responding to popular demand (and a viral Facebook campaign), Tómasdóttir ran for president of Iceland. A woman in a man's race. Polls initially put Tómasdóttir as an outsider, predicting 1 percent of the vote. A few weeks later, against all odds, Tómasdóttir came in second supported by 28 percent of Icelanders.
Halla Tómasdóttir | Speaker | TED.com
Bryn Freedman - Editorial director and curator, TED Institute
Bryn Freedman helps those who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way.
Why you should listen
Award-winning TV producer, investigative journalist and author, Bryn Freedman joined TED in 2014 as the editorial director and curator for the TED Institute. In her work with TED, Freedman creates and executes TED conference events for Fortune 500 companies, overseeing all editorial content as well as managing speaker coaches and determining both the topics for each talk and the overall conference theme. In addition to curating these events, she works as an executive speaker coach for professionals who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way.
Freedman is also co-founder of Voices4Freedom, an international organization aimed at eradicating slavery through education and media.
Bryn Freedman | Speaker | TED.com