TEDGlobal 2012
Read Montague: What we're learning from 5,000 brains
Rid Montagju (Read Montague): Šta saznajemo iz 5.000 mozgova
Filmed:
Readability: 4
763,896 views
Miševi, bube i hrčci nisu više jedini način proučavanja mozga. Funkcionalna MR omogućava naučnicima da prate moždanu aktivnost ljudskih bića koja su živa, dišu i donose odluke. Rid Montagju objašnjava kako nam ovakva tehnologija pomaže u shvatanju komplikovanih načina putem kojih komuniciramo jedni sa drugima.
Read Montague - Behavioral Neuroscientist
What does "normal behavior" look like? To find out, Read Montague is imaging thousands of brains at work. Full bio
What does "normal behavior" look like? To find out, Read Montague is imaging thousands of brains at work. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:16
Other people. Everyone is interested in other people.
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Drugi ljudi.
Svi su zainteresovani za druge ljude.
Svi su zainteresovani za druge ljude.
00:19
Everyone has relationships with other people,
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Svi imaju veze sa drugim ljudima
00:21
and they're interested in these relationships
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i zanimaju ih ove veze
00:22
for a variety of reasons.
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iz raznih razloga.
00:24
Good relationships, bad relationships,
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Dobre veze, loše veze,
00:26
annoying relationships, agnostic relationships,
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dosadne veze, sumnjičave veze,
00:29
and what I'm going to do is focus on the central piece
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a ja ću se fokusirati
na centralni deo
na centralni deo
00:33
of an interaction that goes on in a relationship.
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interakcije koji se odvija u vezama.
00:36
So I'm going to take as inspiration the fact that we're all
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Dakle, ja ću kao inspiraciju
uzeti činjenicu da nas sve
uzeti činjenicu da nas sve
00:38
interested in interacting with other people,
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zanima interakcija sa drugim ljudima
00:41
I'm going to completely strip it of all its complicating features,
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i tu ideju ću u potpunosti osloboditi
svih komplikovanih detalja
svih komplikovanih detalja
00:45
and I'm going to turn that object, that simplified object,
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i pretvoriću taj
pojednostavljeni objekat
pojednostavljeni objekat
00:49
into a scientific probe, and provide the early stages,
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u naučno istraživanje
i doći ću do prvih faza,
i doći ću do prvih faza,
00:53
embryonic stages of new insights into what happens
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osnovnih faza novih otkrića
o tome šta se dešava
o tome šta se dešava
00:55
in two brains while they simultaneously interact.
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unutar dva mozga u toku
simultane interakcije.
simultane interakcije.
00:59
But before I do that, let me tell you a couple of things
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Ali pre nego što to uradim,
govoriću vam o par stvari
govoriću vam o par stvari
01:01
that made this possible.
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koje su to omogućile.
01:03
The first is we can now eavesdrop safely
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Prva je ta da sada možemo
bezbedno da osluškujemo
bezbedno da osluškujemo
01:06
on healthy brain activity.
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aktivnosti zdravog mozga.
01:08
Without needles and radioactivity,
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Bez igala ili radioaktivnosti,
01:11
without any kind of clinical reason, we can go down the street
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bez ikakvog kliničkog razloga,
možemo ići niz ulicu
možemo ići niz ulicu
01:14
and record from your friends' and neighbors' brains
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i snimati mozgove vaših
prijatelja i suseda
prijatelja i suseda
01:17
while they do a variety of cognitive tasks, and we use
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dok obavljaju razne kognitivne zadatke
i pri tome koristimo
i pri tome koristimo
01:19
a method called functional magnetic resonance imaging.
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metodu koja se naziva funkcionalno oslikavanje
magnetnom rezonancijom.
magnetnom rezonancijom.
01:23
You've probably all read about it or heard about in some
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Svi ste verovatno čitali o tome ili
ste čuli o tome u nekom obliku.
ste čuli o tome u nekom obliku.
01:26
incarnation. Let me give you a two-sentence version of it.
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Dozvolite da vam u dve rečenice
objasnim o čemu se radi.
objasnim o čemu se radi.
01:30
So we've all heard of MRIs. MRIs use magnetic fields
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Svi smo čuli za MR (magnetna rezonancija).
Tokom nje se koriste magnetna polja
Tokom nje se koriste magnetna polja
01:33
and radio waves and they take snapshots of your brain
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i radio talasi
i uzimaju se snimci vašeg mozga
i uzimaju se snimci vašeg mozga
01:35
or your knee or your stomach,
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ili vašeg kolena, vašeg stomaka,
01:38
grayscale images that are frozen in time.
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slike u sivim tonovima koje su
zamrznute u vremenu.
zamrznute u vremenu.
01:40
In the 1990s, it was discovered you could use
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Tokom 1990-ih otkriveno je
da ove mašine
da ove mašine
01:42
the same machines in a different mode,
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mogu da se koriste
i na drugi način
i na drugi način
01:45
and in that mode, you could make microscopic blood flow
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i to tako da možete da uzmete
mikroskopske snimke
mikroskopske snimke
01:47
movies from hundreds of thousands of sites independently in the brain.
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krvotoka sa stotine hiljada
mesta u mozgu.
mesta u mozgu.
01:50
Okay, so what? In fact, the so what is, in the brain,
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Okej, pa šta?
Zapravo, promene u nervnoj
Zapravo, promene u nervnoj
01:54
changes in neural activity, the things that make your brain work,
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aktivnosti mozga,
ono što pokreće vaš mozak,
ono što pokreće vaš mozak,
01:57
the things that make your software work in your brain,
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ono što čini da softver
u vašem mozgu radi,
u vašem mozgu radi,
01:59
are tightly correlated with changes in blood flow.
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usko je povezano sa promenama
u krvotoku.
u krvotoku.
02:02
You make a blood flow movie, you have an independent
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Ako napravite snimak krvotoka,
imaćete nezavistan
imaćete nezavistan
02:04
proxy of brain activity.
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prikaz moždane aktivnosti.
02:06
This has literally revolutionized cognitive science.
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Ovo je doslovno revolucija
u kognitivnoj nauci.
u kognitivnoj nauci.
02:09
Take any cognitive domain you want, memory,
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Uzmite bilo koju oblast kognicije,
pamćenje
pamćenje
02:11
motor planning, thinking about your mother-in-law,
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planiranje, razmišljanje o vašoj svekrvi,
02:13
getting angry at people, emotional response, it goes on and on,
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ljutnju, emocionalne reakcije
i lista se nastavlja,
i lista se nastavlja,
02:17
put people into functional MRI devices, and
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stavite ljude u funkcionalne MR aparate
02:20
image how these kinds of variables map onto brain activity.
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i posmatrajte kako ove varijable
utiču na aktivnost mozga.
utiču na aktivnost mozga.
02:24
It's in its early stages, and it's crude by some measures,
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Ideja je u ranoj fazi
i još je nedovršena,
i još je nedovršena,
02:26
but in fact, 20 years ago, we were at nothing.
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ali pre 20 godina, nismo imali ništa.
02:29
You couldn't do people like this. You couldn't do healthy people.
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Nismo mogli ovako da istražujemo na ljudima.
Ne na zdravim ljudima.
Ne na zdravim ljudima.
02:31
That's caused a literal revolution, and it's opened us up
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To je izazvalo bukvalnu revoluciju
i otvorilo nas je
i otvorilo nas je
02:34
to a new experimental preparation. Neurobiologists,
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ka novim eksperimentalnim pripremama.
Neurobiolozi
Neurobiolozi
02:37
as you well know, have lots of experimental preps,
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kao što znate, eksperimentišu na
02:40
worms and rodents and fruit flies and things like this.
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crvima, glodarima, vinskim mušicama
i sličnim oblicima života.
i sličnim oblicima života.
02:44
And now, we have a new experimental prep: human beings.
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A sada, možemo da eksperimentišemo
i na ljudskim bićima.
i na ljudskim bićima.
02:47
We can now use human beings to study and model
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Možemo da koristimo ljudska bića
u istraživanju i oblikovanju
u istraživanju i oblikovanju
02:51
the software in human beings, and we have a few
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tog softvera u ljudskim bićima
i sada imamo nekoliko
i sada imamo nekoliko
02:54
burgeoning biological measures.
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razvijenih bioloških mera za to.
02:57
Okay, let me give you one example of the kinds of experiments that people do,
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Ok, daću vam primer
eksperimenata koje ljudi rade,
eksperimenata koje ljudi rade,
03:00
and it's in the area of what you'd call valuation.
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a koji je u oblasti koju zovemo
vrednovanje.
vrednovanje.
03:03
Valuation is just what you think it is, you know?
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Vrednovanje je ono što i mislite
da jeste, znate?
da jeste, znate?
03:05
If you went and you were valuing two companies against
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Ako biste uzeli da upoređujete
vrednost dveju kompanija
vrednost dveju kompanija
03:08
one another, you'd want to know which was more valuable.
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to biste uradili da otkrijete koja
ima veću vrednost.
ima veću vrednost.
03:11
Cultures discovered the key feature of valuation thousands of years ago.
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Kulture su otkrile ključnu odliku vrednovanja
još pre nekoliko hiljada godina.
još pre nekoliko hiljada godina.
03:15
If you want to compare oranges to windshields, what do you do?
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Ako želite da uporedite narandže i vetrobrane,
šta ćete uraditi?
šta ćete uraditi?
03:17
Well, you can't compare oranges to windshields.
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Pa, ne možete da poredite
narandže i vetrobrane.
narandže i vetrobrane.
03:20
They're immiscible. They don't mix with one another.
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Oni se ne mogu mešati.
Ne mogu se stavljati u isti koš.
Ne mogu se stavljati u isti koš.
03:22
So instead, you convert them to a common currency scale,
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Umesto toga, konvertovaćete ih
po skali zajedničkih vrednosti,
po skali zajedničkih vrednosti,
03:24
put them on that scale, and value them accordingly.
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staviti ih na tu skalu
i tako ih vrednovati.
i tako ih vrednovati.
03:27
Well, your brain has to do something just like that as well,
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Pa, vaš mozak isto mora
da uradi nešto poput toga,
da uradi nešto poput toga,
03:30
and we're now beginning to understand and identify
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a mi počinjemo da shvatamo
i identifikujemo
i identifikujemo
03:33
brain systems involved in valuation,
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sisteme u mozgu koji
učestvuju u vrednovanju,
učestvuju u vrednovanju,
03:35
and one of them includes a neurotransmitter system
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a jedan od njih uključuje
sistem neurotransmitera
sistem neurotransmitera
03:38
whose cells are located in your brainstem
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čije ćelije se nalaze
u korenu vašeg mozga
u korenu vašeg mozga
03:40
and deliver the chemical dopamine to the rest of your brain.
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i šalju supstanciju dopamin
do ostatka vašeg mozga.
do ostatka vašeg mozga.
03:44
I won't go through the details of it, but that's an important
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Neću zalaziti u detalje,
ali ovo je važno otkriće
ali ovo je važno otkriće
03:46
discovery, and we know a good bit about that now,
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o kome sada znamo dosta.
03:48
and it's just a small piece of it, but it's important because
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Ovo je samo mali deo toga,
ali je bitan jer
ali je bitan jer
03:50
those are the neurons that you would lose if you had Parkinson's disease,
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to su neuroni koje biste izgubili
ako biste dobili Parkinsonovu bolest
ako biste dobili Parkinsonovu bolest
03:54
and they're also the neurons that are hijacked by literally
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i to su takođe neuroni koji
stradaju zbog bukvalno
stradaju zbog bukvalno
03:56
every drug of abuse, and that makes sense.
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svake droge, a to ima smisla.
03:58
Drugs of abuse would come in, and they would change
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Droga bi ušla u vaš sistem
i promenila
i promenila
04:00
the way you value the world. They change the way
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način na koji vrednujete svet.
Ona menja način
Ona menja način
04:02
you value the symbols associated with your drug of choice,
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na koji vrednujete simbole
vezane za drogu koju koristite
vezane za drogu koju koristite
04:05
and they make you value that over everything else.
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i čine da to stavljate
iznad svega ostalog.
iznad svega ostalog.
04:08
Here's the key feature though. These neurons are also
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Ali evo ključne odlike.
Ovi neuroni takođe
Ovi neuroni takođe
04:11
involved in the way you can assign value to literally abstract ideas,
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utiču na način na koji cenimo
apstraktne ideje
apstraktne ideje
04:14
and I put some symbols up here that we assign value to
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i ovde sam stavio nekoliko
simbola koje cenimo
simbola koje cenimo
04:16
for various reasons.
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iz raznih razloga.
04:19
We have a behavioral superpower in our brain,
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Imamo bihejvioralne super moći
u našem mozgu
u našem mozgu
04:22
and it at least in part involves dopamine.
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koje bar delimično uključuju dopamin.
04:23
We can deny every instinct we have for survival for an idea,
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Mi možemo da ignorišemo svaki instinkt
za preživljavanjem zbog ideje,
za preživljavanjem zbog ideje,
04:28
for a mere idea. No other species can do that.
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samo zbog ideje.
Nijedna druga vrsta to ne može.
Nijedna druga vrsta to ne može.
04:32
In 1997, the cult Heaven's Gate committed mass suicide
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1997. pripadnici kulta Kapija raja
počinili su masovno samoubistvo
počinili su masovno samoubistvo
04:35
predicated on the idea that there was a spaceship
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zasnovano na ideji da je
postojao svemirski brod
postojao svemirski brod
04:37
hiding in the tail of the then-visible comet Hale-Bopp
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koji se krio u repu tada vidljive
komete Hejl-Bop
komete Hejl-Bop
04:41
waiting to take them to the next level. It was an incredibly tragic event.
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i koji je trebalo da ih prenese na sledeći nivo.
Bio je to neverovatno tragičan događaj.
Bio je to neverovatno tragičan događaj.
04:46
More than two thirds of them had college degrees.
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Više od dve trećine njih završilo je fakultete.
04:49
But the point here is they were able to deny their instincts for survival
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Ali poenta ovde je da su oni bili sposobni da
zanemare svoj instinkt za preživljavanjem
zanemare svoj instinkt za preživljavanjem
04:53
using exactly the same systems that were put there
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koristeći upravo one sisteme
koji su postojali
koji su postojali
04:56
to make them survive. That's a lot of control, okay?
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kako bi ih terali da prežive.
To zahteva mnogo kontrole.
To zahteva mnogo kontrole.
05:00
One thing that I've left out of this narrative
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Jednu očiglednu stvar sam
izostavio iz ove priče,
izostavio iz ove priče,
05:02
is the obvious thing, which is the focus of the rest of my
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koja je u fokusu ostatka
mog govora
mog govora
05:04
little talk, and that is other people.
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a to su drugi ljudi.
05:06
These same valuation systems are redeployed
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Isti ovi sistemi vrednovanja
se primenjuju
se primenjuju
05:09
when we're valuing interactions with other people.
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kada vrednujemo interakciju
sa drugim ljudima.
sa drugim ljudima.
05:12
So this same dopamine system that gets addicted to drugs,
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Dakle, isti ovaj dopaminski sistem,
koji se navuče na drogu
koji se navuče na drogu
05:15
that makes you freeze when you get Parkinson's disease,
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koji vas natera da se parališete
kada dobijete Parkinsonovu bolest,
kada dobijete Parkinsonovu bolest,
05:17
that contributes to various forms of psychosis,
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koji učestvuje u raznim oblicima psihoze,
05:20
is also redeployed to value interactions with other people
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takođe se primenjuje kod vrednovanja
interakcije sa drugim ljudima
interakcije sa drugim ljudima
05:24
and to assign value to gestures that you do
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i kod pridavanja važnosti
gestovima koje činite
gestovima koje činite
05:27
when you're interacting with somebody else.
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kada ste u interakciji sa nekim drugim.
05:30
Let me give you an example of this.
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Daću vam primer ovoga.
05:32
You bring to the table such enormous processing power
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Vi posedujete toliku ogromnu moć
obrade podataka
obrade podataka
05:35
in this domain that you hardly even notice it.
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u ovom području da na to
jedva obraćate pažnju.
jedva obraćate pažnju.
05:38
Let me just give you a few examples. So here's a baby.
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Daću vam nekoliko primera.
Evo jedne bebe.
Evo jedne bebe.
05:40
She's three months old. She still poops in her diapers and she can't do calculus.
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Ona ima tri meseca.
I dalje kaki u pelene i ne ume da računa.
I dalje kaki u pelene i ne ume da računa.
05:43
She's related to me. Somebody will be very glad that she's up here on the screen.
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U rodu je sa mnom. Nekome će biti
veoma drago što je ovde na ekranu.
veoma drago što je ovde na ekranu.
05:47
You can cover up one of her eyes, and you can still read
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Možete pokriti jedno njeno oko i
i dalje pročitati
i dalje pročitati
05:49
something in the other eye, and I see sort of curiosity
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nešto u njenom drugom oku,
a ja vidim neku radoznalost
a ja vidim neku radoznalost
05:52
in one eye, I see maybe a little bit of surprise in the other.
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u jednom oku i možda malo
iznenađenosti u drugom.
iznenađenosti u drugom.
05:55
Here's a couple. They're sharing a moment together,
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Evo jednog para.
Dele jedan zajednički trenutak,
Dele jedan zajednički trenutak,
05:59
and we've even done an experiment where you can cut out
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a mi smo čak uradili i eksperiment
gde možete da isečete
gde možete da isečete
06:00
different pieces of this frame and you can still see
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razne delove ove slike,
a da i dalje vidite
a da i dalje vidite
06:03
that they're sharing it. They're sharing it sort of in parallel.
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da oni dele isto osećanje.
To se dešava paralelno.
To se dešava paralelno.
06:05
Now, the elements of the scene also communicate this
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E sada, elementi scene takođe
nam to govore,
nam to govore,
06:08
to us, but you can read it straight off their faces,
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ali možete to pročitati direktno
sa njihovih lica,
sa njihovih lica,
06:10
and if you compare their faces to normal faces, it would be a very subtle cue.
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a ako uporedite njihova lica sa normalnim licima,
bio bi to veoma suptilan signal.
bio bi to veoma suptilan signal.
06:14
Here's another couple. He's projecting out at us,
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Evo još jednog para.
On se obraća nama,
On se obraća nama,
06:17
and she's clearly projecting, you know,
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a ona očigledno pokazuje, znate,
06:20
love and admiration at him.
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ljubav i divljenje prema njemu.
06:22
Here's another couple. (Laughter)
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Evo još jednog para.
(Smeh)
(Smeh)
06:26
And I'm thinking I'm not seeing love and admiration on the left. (Laughter)
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I čini mi se da ne vidim ljubav
i divljenje sa leve strane. (Smeh)
i divljenje sa leve strane. (Smeh)
06:31
In fact, I know this is his sister, and you can just see
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Zapravo, ja znam da mu je to sestra
i prosto možete da ga vidite
i prosto možete da ga vidite
06:33
him saying, "Okay, we're doing this for the camera,
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kako govori:
"Ok, radimo ovo samo za slikanje,
"Ok, radimo ovo samo za slikanje,
06:36
and then afterwards you steal my candy and you punch me in the face." (Laughter)
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a posle ćeš da mi kradeš slatkiše
i da me udaraš u lice." (Smeh)
i da me udaraš u lice." (Smeh)
06:42
He'll kill me for showing that.
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Ubiće me što sam ovo pokazao.
06:44
All right, so what does this mean?
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U redu, šta onda ovo znači?
06:46
It means we bring an enormous amount of processing power to the problem.
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Ovo znači da posedujemo ogromnu
količinu moći obrade podataka.
količinu moći obrade podataka.
06:50
It engages deep systems in our brain, in dopaminergic
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To uključuje dubinske sisteme
u našem mozgu, u dopaminergičkim
u našem mozgu, u dopaminergičkim
06:53
systems that are there to make you chase sex, food and salt.
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sistemima koji postoje kako bi vas terali
da jurite seks, hranu i so.
da jurite seks, hranu i so.
06:56
They keep you alive. It gives them the pie, it gives
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Oni vas drže u životu.
Daje im celinu, daje
Daje im celinu, daje
06:59
that kind of a behavioral punch which we've called a superpower.
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takvu bihevijoralnu snagu koju smo
nazvali super moć.
nazvali super moć.
07:02
So how can we take that and arrange a kind of staged
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Pa kako to možemo da uzmemo
i napravimo nekakvu isceniranu
i napravimo nekakvu isceniranu
07:06
social interaction and turn that into a scientific probe?
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društvenu interakciju i pretvorimo to
u naučno istraživanje?
u naučno istraživanje?
07:08
And the short answer is games.
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A kratak odgovor bio bi: kroz igre.
07:11
Economic games. So what we do is we go into two areas.
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Ekonomske igre. Ono što mi radimo je
da se bavimo dvama poljima.
da se bavimo dvama poljima.
07:16
One area is called experimental economics. The other area is called behavioral economics.
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Jedno polje se zove eksperimentalna ekonomija.
Drugo polje se zove bihevijoralna ekonomija.
Drugo polje se zove bihevijoralna ekonomija.
07:19
And we steal their games. And we contrive them to our own purposes.
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Mi krademo njihove igre i sprovodimo
ih prema našim potrebama.
ih prema našim potrebama.
07:23
So this shows you one particular game called an ultimatum game.
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Ovo vam prikazuje jednu od igara koja
se zove igra ultimatuma.
se zove igra ultimatuma.
07:26
Red person is given a hundred dollars and can offer
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Crvena osoba dobija sto dolara
i može da ih podeli
i može da ih podeli
07:28
a split to blue. Let's say red wants to keep 70,
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sa plavom osobom.
Recimo da crveni hoće da zadrži 70,
Recimo da crveni hoće da zadrži 70,
07:32
and offers blue 30. So he offers a 70-30 split with blue.
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a plavom nudi 30. Dakle, on plavom
nudi podelu 70-30.
nudi podelu 70-30.
07:36
Control passes to blue, and blue says, "I accept it,"
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Kontrola prelazi na plavog
i on kaže: "Prihvatam"
i on kaže: "Prihvatam"
07:38
in which case he'd get the money, or blue says,
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i u tom slučaju on dobija novac.
Ili plavi kaže:
Ili plavi kaže:
07:40
"I reject it," in which case no one gets anything. Okay?
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"Odbijam" i u tom slučaju niko
ne dobija ništa. Ok?
ne dobija ništa. Ok?
07:45
So a rational choice economist would say, well,
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Dakle, razumna odluka
po ekonomistima bi bila
po ekonomistima bi bila
07:48
you should take all non-zero offers.
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prihvatiti sve ponude koje
ne uključuju nulu.
ne uključuju nulu.
07:50
What do people do? People are indifferent at an 80-20 split.
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Šta ljudi rade? Ljudi su ravnodušni
na 80-20 podelu.
na 80-20 podelu.
07:54
At 80-20, it's a coin flip whether you accept that or not.
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Na 80-20, može se bacati novčić kako bi
se odlučilo da li prihvatiti ili ne.
se odlučilo da li prihvatiti ili ne.
07:57
Why is that? You know, because you're pissed off.
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A zašto je to tako?
Pa znate, jer ste iznervirani.
Pa znate, jer ste iznervirani.
08:00
You're mad. That's an unfair offer, and you know what an unfair offer is.
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Besni ste. To nije poštena ponuda,
a vi znate kako ona izgleda.
a vi znate kako ona izgleda.
08:04
This is the kind of game done by my lab and many around the world.
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Ovakva igra se radi u mojoj laboratoriji
i još mnogima širom sveta.
i još mnogima širom sveta.
08:07
That just gives you an example of the kind of thing that
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To vam samo daje primer stvari koje
08:09
these games probe. The interesting thing is, these games
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ove igre ispituju.
Zanimljivo je da ove igre
Zanimljivo je da ove igre
08:13
require that you have a lot of cognitive apparatus on line.
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zahtevaju od vas mnogo
kognitivnog materijala.
kognitivnog materijala.
08:17
You have to be able to come to the table with a proper model of another person.
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Morate biti sposobni da uđete u raspravu
sa odgovarajućom drugom osobom.
sa odgovarajućom drugom osobom.
08:20
You have to be able to remember what you've done.
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Morate biti sposobni da se setite
šta ste uradili.
šta ste uradili.
08:23
You have to stand up in the moment to do that.
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Morate biti dostojni situacije
da biste to uradili.
da biste to uradili.
08:24
Then you have to update your model based on the signals coming back,
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Onda morate da ažurirate svoj model
na osnovu signala koje dobijete
na osnovu signala koje dobijete
08:28
and you have to do something that is interesting,
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i morate da uradite nešto zanimljivo,
08:31
which is you have to do a kind of depth of thought assay.
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a to je da morate da uradite
procenu skrivenih misli.
procenu skrivenih misli.
08:33
That is, you have to decide what that other person expects of you.
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Što znači da morate da procenite
šta druga osoba očekuje od vas.
šta druga osoba očekuje od vas.
08:36
You have to send signals to manage your image in their mind.
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Morate da šaljete signale kako biste
upravljali vašom slikom u njenoj svesti.
upravljali vašom slikom u njenoj svesti.
08:39
Like a job interview. You sit across the desk from somebody,
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Kao razgovor za posao.
Sedite preko puta nekoga,
Sedite preko puta nekoga,
08:42
they have some prior image of you,
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taj neko već ima prethodno stvorenu
sliku o vama,
sliku o vama,
08:44
you send signals across the desk to move their image
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vi šaljete signale preko stola
kako biste promenili tu sliku
kako biste promenili tu sliku
08:46
of you from one place to a place where you want it to be.
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sa postojeće na onakvu
kakva vi želite da bude.
kakva vi želite da bude.
08:50
We're so good at this we don't really even notice it.
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Mi smo toliko dobri u tome,
da ni ne obraćamo pažnju na to.
da ni ne obraćamo pažnju na to.
08:54
These kinds of probes exploit it. Okay?
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Ovakva istraživanja to koriste.
Razumete?
Razumete?
08:57
In doing this, what we've discovered is that humans
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Radeći ovo shvatili smo da se ljudi
08:59
are literal canaries in social exchanges.
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ponašaju kao kanarinci
u komunikativnim situacijama.
u komunikativnim situacijama.
09:02
Canaries used to be used as kind of biosensors in mines.
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Kanarinci su korišćeni
kao biosenzori u rudnicima.
kao biosenzori u rudnicima.
09:05
When methane built up, or carbon dioxide built up,
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Kada bi nivo metana ili
ugljen-dioksida porastao,
ugljen-dioksida porastao,
09:09
or oxygen was diminished, the birds would swoon
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4186
ili kada bi nivo kiseonika opao,
ptice bi izgubile svest
ptice bi izgubile svest
09:13
before people would -- so it acted as an early warning system:
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pre ljudi, tako da je to služilo
kao sistem upozoravanja:
kao sistem upozoravanja:
09:15
Hey, get out of the mine. Things aren't going so well.
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Hej, izlazite iz rudnika.
Stvari baš i ne stoje najbolje.
Stvari baš i ne stoje najbolje.
09:18
People come to the table, and even these very blunt,
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Ljudi dođu na raspravu i čak
i u ovim veoma ograničenim,
i u ovim veoma ograničenim,
09:21
staged social interactions, and they, and there's just
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odglumljenim društvenim interakcijama,
gde se
gde se
09:24
numbers going back and forth between the people,
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radi samo o razmenjivanju raznih brojeva,
09:27
and they bring enormous sensitivities to it.
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ljudi unose veliku osećajnost u to.
09:29
So we realized we could exploit this, and in fact,
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Tako da smo shvatili da možemo
ovo da iskoristimo i u stvari,
ovo da iskoristimo i u stvari,
09:32
as we've done that, and we've done this now in
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dok smo to radili,
a uradili smo to sada sa
a uradili smo to sada sa
09:34
many thousands of people, I think on the order of
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više hiljada ljudi, mislim na oko
09:37
five or six thousand. We actually, to make this
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pet ili šest hiljada. Zapravo, kako
bismo od ovoga napravili
bismo od ovoga napravili
09:39
a biological probe, need bigger numbers than that,
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2224
biološko istraživanje,
treba nam i veći broj od ovoga
treba nam i veći broj od ovoga
09:42
remarkably so. But anyway,
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3674
mnogo veći.
Ali u svakom slučaju,
Ali u svakom slučaju,
09:45
patterns have emerged, and we've been able to take
196
569791
2004
pojavili su se šabloni,
a mi smo uzeli
a mi smo uzeli
09:47
those patterns, convert them into mathematical models,
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te šablone, pretvorili ih
u matematičke modele
u matematičke modele
09:51
and use those mathematical models to gain new insights
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i iskoristili te matematičke modele
kako bismo napravili nova otkrića
kako bismo napravili nova otkrića
09:54
into these exchanges. Okay, so what?
199
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o ovim situacijama.
Ok, pa šta?
Ok, pa šta?
09:56
Well, the so what is, that's a really nice behavioral measure,
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Pa, to da je ovo vrlo lepo
merilo ponašanja,
merilo ponašanja,
09:59
the economic games bring to us notions of optimal play.
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ekonomske igre nam donose
predstavu optimalne igre.
predstavu optimalne igre.
10:02
We can compute that during the game.
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To možemo da izračunamo
u toku igre.
u toku igre.
10:05
And we can use that to sort of carve up the behavior.
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2953
I to možemo da iskoristimo da, takoreći,
isklešemo ponašanje.
isklešemo ponašanje.
10:08
Here's the cool thing. Six or seven years ago,
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Evo jedne kul stvari.
Pre šest ili sedam godina,
Pre šest ili sedam godina,
10:12
we developed a team. It was at the time in Houston, Texas.
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oformili smo tim.
Tada je to bilo u Hjustonu, u Teksasu.
Tada je to bilo u Hjustonu, u Teksasu.
10:15
It's now in Virginia and London. And we built software
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Sada je u Virdžiniji i Londonu.
I napravili smo softver
I napravili smo softver
10:18
that'll link functional magnetic resonance imaging devices
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3207
koji će povezati sprave za funkcionalnu
magnetnu rezonancu
magnetnu rezonancu
10:21
up over the Internet. I guess we've done up to six machines
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preko interneta. Mislim da smo
to tada uradili sa oko šest
to tada uradili sa oko šest
10:25
at a time, but let's just focus on two.
209
610036
1981
mašina, ali fokusirajmo se na dve.
10:27
So it synchronizes machines anywhere in the world.
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Dakle, usklađujemo mašine
bilo gde u svetu.
bilo gde u svetu.
10:30
We synchronize the machines, set them into these
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3169
Mi usklađujemo mašine,
namestimo ih na te
namestimo ih na te
10:34
staged social interactions, and we eavesdrop on both
212
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odglumljene društvene interakcije
i prisluškujemo dva
i prisluškujemo dva
10:36
of the interacting brains. So for the first time,
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1666
mozga u interakciji. Prvi put,
10:37
we don't have to look at just averages over single individuals,
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ne moramo da posmatramo
samo individualne proseke,
samo individualne proseke,
10:41
or have individuals playing computers, or try to make
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ili da svako individualno igra kompjuter
ili da pokušamo da pravimo
ili da pokušamo da pravimo
10:44
inferences that way. We can study individual dyads.
216
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zaključke na taj način. Možemo da
proučavamo individualne dijade.
proučavamo individualne dijade.
10:47
We can study the way that one person interacts with another person,
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2785
Možemo da proučavamo način na koji
jedna osoba komunicira da drugom,
jedna osoba komunicira da drugom,
10:49
turn the numbers up, and start to gain new insights
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da povećamo broj osoba i počnemo
da pravimo nova otkrića
da pravimo nova otkrića
10:52
into the boundaries of normal cognition,
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2515
o granicama normalne kognicije,
10:54
but more importantly, we can put people with
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ali ono što je još bitnije, možemo
da stavimo ljude
da stavimo ljude
10:57
classically defined mental illnesses, or brain damage,
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3337
sa klasično definisanim mentalnim oboljenjima
ili oštećenjima mozga
ili oštećenjima mozga
11:00
into these social interactions, and use these as probes of that.
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u ove društvene interakcije i da ih
koristimo u istraživanju toga.
koristimo u istraživanju toga.
11:04
So we've started this effort. We've made a few hits,
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Dakle, mi smo započeli ovaj napor.
Imali smo nekoliko pogodaka,
Imali smo nekoliko pogodaka,
11:06
a few, I think, embryonic discoveries.
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2449
nekoliko, verujem, početnih otkrića.
11:09
We think there's a future to this. But it's our way
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2812
Mislimo da ovo ima budućnost.
Ali to je naš način
Ali to je naš način
11:12
of going in and redefining, with a new lexicon,
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ulaska u to i redefinisanja,
sa novim rečnikom,
sa novim rečnikom,
11:14
a mathematical one actually, as opposed to the standard
227
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4022
matematičkim, zapravo,
koji je suprotan standardnom
koji je suprotan standardnom
11:18
ways that we think about mental illness,
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2578
načinu na koji vidimo
mentalna oboljenja,
mentalna oboljenja,
11:21
characterizing these diseases, by using the people
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2067
karakterišući ove bolesti,
koristeći ljude
koristeći ljude
11:23
as birds in the exchanges. That is, we exploit the fact
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3007
kao ptice u interakciji.
Odnosno, iskorišćavamo činjenicu
Odnosno, iskorišćavamo činjenicu
11:26
that the healthy partner, playing somebody with major depression,
231
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4244
da zdrav partner glumi nekoga
sa teškom depresijom,
sa teškom depresijom,
11:30
or playing somebody with autism spectrum disorder,
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2910
ili nekoga sa spektrom autističnih poremećaja,
11:33
or playing somebody with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder,
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3850
ili nekoga sa hiperkinetičkim poremećajem.
11:37
we use that as a kind of biosensor, and then we use
234
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3219
Koristimo to kao nekakve biosenzore,
a zatim koristimo
a zatim koristimo
11:40
computer programs to model that person, and it gives us
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2644
kompjuterske programe da modeliramo
tu osobu i to nam daje
tu osobu i to nam daje
11:43
a kind of assay of this.
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neku procenu toga.
11:45
Early days, and we're just beginning, we're setting up sites
237
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2131
Još je rano i tek počinjemo,
širimo se
širimo se
11:47
around the world. Here are a few of our collaborating sites.
238
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po svetu.
Evo nekoliko naših saradnika.
Evo nekoliko naših saradnika.
11:51
The hub, ironically enough,
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2309
Središte se, ironično,
11:53
is centered in little Roanoke, Virginia.
240
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nalazi u Malom Roanoku,
u Virdžiniji.
u Virdžiniji.
11:56
There's another hub in London, now, and the rest
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2269
Drugo središte nalazi se u Londonu,
za sada, a ostala
za sada, a ostala
11:58
are getting set up. We hope to give the data away
242
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4009
su u procesu. Nadamo se da ćemo
u nekom trenutku moći
u nekom trenutku moći
12:02
at some stage. That's a complicated issue
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3673
da otkrijemo podatke.
Komplikovan je problem
Komplikovan je problem
12:06
about making it available to the rest of the world.
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2994
napraviti ovo dostupnim za ostatak sveta.
12:09
But we're also studying just a small part
245
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1847
Ali mi takođe proučavamo samo mali deo
12:11
of what makes us interesting as human beings, and so
246
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2267
onoga što nas kao ljudska bića
čini zanimljivim i stoga
čini zanimljivim i stoga
12:13
I would invite other people who are interested in this
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2041
bih da pozovem druge ljude
koje ovo zanima
koje ovo zanima
12:15
to ask us for the software, or even for guidance
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2569
da nas pitaju o softveru
ili da čak potraže pomoć
ili da čak potraže pomoć
12:18
on how to move forward with that.
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oko toga kako da napreduju u tome.
12:20
Let me leave you with one thought in closing.
250
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Ostaviću vas sa jednom mišlju za kraj.
12:22
The interesting thing about studying cognition
251
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1942
Zanimljiva stvar kod proučavanja kognicije
12:24
has been that we've been limited, in a way.
252
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3732
je da smo, na neki način, bili ograničeni.
12:28
We just haven't had the tools to look at interacting brains
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2943
Samo nismo imali instrumente kojima bismo
posmatrali mozgove u simultanoj
posmatrali mozgove u simultanoj
12:31
simultaneously.
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interakciji.
12:32
The fact is, though, that even when we're alone,
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Činjenica je, pak,
da čak i kad smo sami,
da čak i kad smo sami,
12:34
we're a profoundly social creature. We're not a solitary mind
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mi smo izuzetno društvena bića.
Nismo samotni um
Nismo samotni um
12:39
built out of properties that kept it alive in the world
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izgrađen od osobina koje ga drže u životu
12:43
independent of other people. In fact, our minds
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nezavisno od drugih ljudi.
Zapravo, naši umovi
Zapravo, naši umovi
12:47
depend on other people. They depend on other people,
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zavise od drugih ljudi.
Oni zavise od drugih ljudi
Oni zavise od drugih ljudi
12:50
and they're expressed in other people,
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i očituju se u drugim ljudima,
12:51
so the notion of who you are, you often don't know
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tako da pojam onoga ko ste,
vi često ne znate
vi često ne znate
12:55
who you are until you see yourself in interaction with people
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ko ste dok ne vidite sebe u
interakciji sa drugim ljudima
interakciji sa drugim ljudima
12:58
that are close to you, people that are enemies of you,
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koji su vam bliski,
ljudima koji su vaši neprijatelji,
ljudima koji su vaši neprijatelji,
13:00
people that are agnostic to you.
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ljudima koji su sumnjičavi
prema vama.
prema vama.
13:03
So this is the first sort of step into using that insight
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Dakle, ovo je prvi korak ka
korišćenju tih saznanja
korišćenju tih saznanja
13:06
into what makes us human beings, turning it into a tool,
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o tome šta nas čini ljudskim bićima
i pretvaranju toga u alat
i pretvaranju toga u alat
13:10
and trying to gain new insights into mental illness.
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i pokušaju dobijanja novih saznanja
o mentalnim oboljenjima.
o mentalnim oboljenjima.
13:12
Thanks for having me. (Applause)
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Hvala na pažnji.
(Aplauz)
(Aplauz)
13:15
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Read Montague - Behavioral NeuroscientistWhat does "normal behavior" look like? To find out, Read Montague is imaging thousands of brains at work.
Why you should listen
Until recently, the world's curiosity about our brains seemed to focus on abnormal behavior. Which of course left a big question unanswered: Do we even know what "normal behavior" is? Through the landmark Roanoke Brain Study, Read Montague is hoping to find that out, exploring the everyday tasks of brains -- making decisions, understanding social context, and relating to others -- by neuroimaging some 5,000 people, ages 18-85, over a period of many years.
Montague's teams in Virginia and in London lead fascinating research in computational neuroscience (how the brain's "machinery" works), offering insight into the relationship between the social and cognitive functions. For instance, a recent study from his group found that in small social groups, some people will alter the expression of their IQ in reaction to social pressures -- revising, in almost all cases, downward.
Read Montague | Speaker | TED.com