TEDxFIU
Lindsay Malloy: Why teens confess to crimes they didn't commit
琳达思·马洛: 为何青少年会承认他们没犯过的罪行？
Filmed:
Readability: 5.4
1,461,536 views
为何青少年会错误地承认罪行？在令人震惊、违反常理的现象面前，是什么让他们比成人更脆弱？透过布莱登·戴斯案审讯和认罪的镜头(摘自Netflix出品的纪录片“制造一个杀人犯”），发展心理学教授兼研究员-琳达思·马洛-揭示了隐藏在错误认罪面纱下的科学依据，并呼吁在目前为成人设计的司法体系下，在对待孩子方面做出一些改变。
Lindsay Malloy - Developmental psychology professor, researcher
Lindsay Malloy studies how kids function in a legal system that was designed for adults. Full bio
Lindsay Malloy studies how kids function in a legal system that was designed for adults. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:14
Tyler Edmonds,
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泰勒·埃德蒙兹,
00:16
Bobby Johnson,
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鲍比·约翰逊,
00:18
Davontae Sanford,
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达文特·桑福德,
00:20
Marty Tankleff,
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马蒂. 坦克勒夫,
00:22
Jeffrey Deskovic,
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杰弗里·德斯克维克,
00:24
Anthony Caravella
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安东尼·卡若维拉
00:27
and Travis Hayes.
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和崔维斯·海耶斯，
00:29
You probably don't recognize their faces.
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可能你并不认识他们的面孔。
他们 7 人因为莫须有的谋杀罪，
而一共服刑 89 年！
而一共服刑 89 年！
00:32
Together, they served 89 years
for murders that they didn't commit;
for murders that they didn't commit;
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00:36
murders that they falsely confessed
to committing when they were teenagers.
to committing when they were teenagers.
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而这些谋杀罪是
在他们十几岁时错承认的罪行。
在他们十几岁时错承认的罪行。
00:41
I'm a forensic developmental psychologist,
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我是一名犯罪发展心理学家,
00:43
and I study these types of cases.
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专注研究这种类型的案例。
00:46
As a researcher,
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作为一名研究人员,
00:48
a professor
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一位教授，
00:49
and a new parent,
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和一位新家长,
00:50
my goal is to conduct scientific research
that helps us understand
that helps us understand
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我的目标是进行科学研究,
以帮助我们了解
以帮助我们了解
在一个为成年人设计的法律体系中
儿童是如何被对待的。
儿童是如何被对待的。
00:55
how kids function in a legal system
that was designed for adults.
that was designed for adults.
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2006 年 3 月，
00:59
In March of 2006,
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01:01
police interrogated Brendan Dassey,
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警察审问了布兰登·戴斯,
一名智商约 70 分的
16 岁的高中生,
16 岁的高中生,
01:03
a 16-year-old high school student
with an IQ around 70,
with an IQ around 70,
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这样的智商
属于弱智范围。
属于弱智范围。
01:07
putting him in the range
of intellectual disability.
of intellectual disability.
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01:10
So here's just a brief snippet
of his four-hour interrogation.
of his four-hour interrogation.
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这里只是对他进行
四小时审讯的简短片段。
四小时审讯的简短片段。
（视频）警察 1: 布兰登, 你要说实话！
01:15
(Video) Police 1: Brendan, be honest.
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我告诉过你，在这里
只有实话实说才能帮你！
只有实话实说才能帮你！
01:16
I told you before that's the only thing
that's going to help you here.
that's going to help you here.
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我已经了解了所发生的一切,
明白吗？
明白吗？
01:20
We already know what happened, OK?
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警察 2: 如果让我们发现
你不诚实的话---
你不诚实的话---
01:22
Police 2: If we don't get honesty here --
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现在我就是你的朋友,
01:24
I'm your friend right now,
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01:27
but I've got to believe in you,
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但我必须信任你,
如果不信任你的话，
01:29
and if I don't believe in you,
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01:31
I can't go to bat for you.
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我就无法帮到你。
01:33
OK? You're nodding.
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对不对？你在点头。
告诉我们发生了什么吧。
01:35
Tell us what happened.
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警察1 : 你妈妈说，
你会对我们诚实相告！
你会对我们诚实相告！
01:36
P1: Your mom said you'd be honest with us.
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警察2: 不管这里发生了什么,
她都会 100% 地支持你的。
她都会 100% 地支持你的。
01:38
P2: And she's behind you 100 percent
no matter what happens here.
no matter what happens here.
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警察1: 她就是这么说的,
因为她认为你了解得更多。
01:41
P1: That's what she said,
because she thinks you know more, too.
because she thinks you know more, too.
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警察2: 我们都站在你这边。
01:44
P2: We're in your corner.
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警察1: 我们已经知道发生了什么,
现在就告诉我们详情！别撒谎！
现在就告诉我们详情！别撒谎！
01:46
P1: We already know what happened,
now tell us exactly. Don't lie.
now tell us exactly. Don't lie.
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01:51
Lindsay Malloy: They told Brendan
that honesty would "set him free,"
that honesty would "set him free,"
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琳达思·马洛：他们告诉布兰登,
只要说实话，就会 "放他走",
只要说实话，就会 "放他走",
但他们当时完全确信
布兰登是有罪的。
布兰登是有罪的。
01:55
but they were completely
convinced of his guilt at that point.
convinced of his guilt at that point.
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因此, 要求他诚实，
他们实际上想让他认罪,
他们实际上想让他认罪,
01:58
So by honesty, they meant a confession,
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而且，只要他认罪，
他们就肯定不会放他走。
他们就肯定不会放他走。
02:00
and his confession would definitely not
end up setting him free.
end up setting him free.
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最终，他们还是
让布兰登承认犯了罪,
让布兰登承认犯了罪,
02:04
They eventually got
a confession from Brendan
a confession from Brendan
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这样的认罪根本解释不通，
02:06
that didn't really make sense,
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它与犯罪的大部分物证不符,
02:08
didn't match much of the physical
evidence of the crime
evidence of the crime
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而且大家普遍认为
布兰登认罪是错的。
布兰登认罪是错的。
02:10
and is widely believed to be false.
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然而, 这足以让布兰登定罪,
2017年他被判终身监禁,
2017年他被判终身监禁,
02:13
Still, it was enough to convict Brendan
and sentence him to life in prison
and sentence him to life in prison
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罪名是谋杀和性侵罪。
02:17
for murder and sexual assault in 2007.
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02:21
There was no physical evidence
against Brendan at all.
against Brendan at all.
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其实，压根就没有
对布兰登不利的任何物证，
对布兰登不利的任何物证，
只有他自己的认罪供词,
02:23
It was nothing more than his own words
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就是这份供词把他送进监狱，
让他坐了近十年牢,
让他坐了近十年牢,
02:26
that sent him to prison
for nearly a decade,
for nearly a decade,
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直到几个月前，一名法官
才推翻了对他的判决。
才推翻了对他的判决。
02:28
until a judge overturned his conviction
just a few months ago.
just a few months ago.
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戴斯的案例太特殊了，
Netflix电视台为此制作了系列纪录片,
Netflix电视台为此制作了系列纪录片,
02:33
The Dassey case is unique because
it made its way into a Netflix series,
it made its way into a Netflix series,
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片名 "制造一个杀人犯",
02:38
called "Making a Murderer,"
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相信你们很多人都看过，
02:39
which I'm sure many of you saw,
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如果没看过的话,
你一定要看看。
你一定要看看。
02:41
and if you haven't,
you should definitely watch it.
you should definitely watch it.
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戴斯案的另一个特殊之处是,
02:44
The Dassey case is also unique
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它引起了强烈的公愤！
02:46
because it led to such
intense public outrage.
intense public outrage.
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人们对布兰登被审问的方式
非常愤怒,
非常愤怒,
02:49
People were very angry about
how Brendan was questioned,
how Brendan was questioned,
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许多人认为对他的审讯方式
应该是非法的。
应该是非法的。
02:52
and many assumed that his interrogation
had to have been illegal.
had to have been illegal.
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02:57
It wasn't illegal.
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其实，这并不违法。
作为这个领域的研究人员
02:58
As someone who's a researcher in this area
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和熟悉警察审讯培训手册的人,
03:00
and is familiar with police
interrogation training manuals,
interrogation training manuals,
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我对刚才所看到的画面
并不感到惊讶。
并不感到惊讶。
03:03
I wasn't really surprised by what I saw.
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事实上, 戴斯的审讯本身
并没什么特别之处,
并没什么特别之处,
03:06
The fact is, Dassey's interrogation itself
is actually not all that unique,
is actually not all that unique,
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老实说,
我还见过更糟的。
我还见过更糟的。
03:10
and to be honest with you,
I've seen worse.
I've seen worse.
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所以，我特别理解
03:13
So I understand the public
outcry about injustice
outcry about injustice
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公众对布兰登·戴斯
个案中的不公所提出的抗议。
个案中的不公所提出的抗议。
03:17
in Brendan Dassey's individual case.
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但请不要忘记, 在美国,
03:20
But let's not forget that approximately
one million or so of his peers
one million or so of his peers
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他的同龄人
每年约有 100 万人被逮捕,
每年约有 100 万人被逮捕,
03:24
are arrested every year
in the United States
in the United States
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可能会遭受类似的审讯技术，
03:26
and may be subjected to similar
interrogation techniques,
interrogation techniques,
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我们知道这些审讯技术
会增加错认罪的风险。
会增加错认罪的风险。
03:30
techniques that we know increase
the risk for false confession.
the risk for false confession.
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03:35
And I know many people are going
to struggle with that term,
to struggle with that term,
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我知道，很多人
会难以理解”错认罪’’这个词，
03:38
"false confession,"
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也很难相信
错认罪的真实存在，
错认罪的真实存在，
03:39
and with believing that false
confessions actually occur.
confessions actually occur.
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对此我能够理解。
03:43
And I get that.
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这是令人非常震惊
和违反直觉的：
和违反直觉的：
03:44
It's very shocking and counterintuitive:
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如果压根儿就没犯
像强奸或谋杀这样的恐怖罪行，
像强奸或谋杀这样的恐怖罪行，
03:47
Why would someone confess
and even give gruesome details
and even give gruesome details
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为何有人会认罪，
03:52
about a horrifying crime
like rape or murder
like rape or murder
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甚至给出令人毛骨悚然的细节呢？
03:56
if they hadn't actually done it?
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03:58
It makes no sense.
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这根本就说不通呀。
04:00
And the fact is, we can never
know precisely
know precisely
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而事实上，
我们永远无法准确知道
我们永远无法准确知道
错认罪发生的频率。
04:02
how often false confessions occur.
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04:04
But what we do know is that false
confessions or admissions were present
confessions or admissions were present
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但有一点我们是清楚的---
错认罪或错坦白约占
因后期DNA证据证明无罪的
因后期DNA证据证明无罪的
04:08
in approximately 25 percent
of wrongful convictions
of wrongful convictions
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错判案例的 25%，
04:12
of people later exonerated
by DNA evidence.
by DNA evidence.
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事实证明，
他们是无辜的。
他们是无辜的。
04:15
Turns out, they were innocent.
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04:17
These cases are crystal clear
because we have the DNA.
because we have the DNA.
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这些案例都非常清晰，
因为我们有DNA。
因为我们有DNA。
因此，他们根本没有犯罪，
04:20
So they didn't do the crime,
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却有四分之一的当事人
承认有罪。
承认有罪。
04:22
and yet one-quarter of them
confessed to it anyway.
confessed to it anyway.
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04:27
And at this point,
from countless research studies,
from countless research studies,
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大量调查研究显示，
就这一点来说，
就这一点来说，
04:30
we have a pretty good sense
of why people falsely confess,
of why people falsely confess,
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我们很容易理解
为何人们会错认罪，
为何人们会错认罪，
为何有些人，
04:33
and why some people,
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像布兰登·戴斯这样的人，
04:34
like Brendan Dassey,
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更容易错认罪。
04:36
are at greater risk for doing so.
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04:40
We know that youth are especially
vulnerable to providing false confessions.
vulnerable to providing false confessions.
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我们知道, 年轻人
特别容易提错认罪。
特别容易提错认罪。
04:45
In one study of exonerations, for example,
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例如，一项关于免罪研究的结果显示，
04:48
only eight percent of adults
had falsely confessed,
had falsely confessed,
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只有 8% 的成年人会错认罪，
而高达 42% 的青少年却会那么做。
04:50
but 42 percent of juveniles had done so.
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04:53
Of course, if we're just looking
at wrongful convictions and exonerations,
at wrongful convictions and exonerations,
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当然, 如果我们
只看错判和免罪的话,
只看错判和免罪的话,
我们才只看到了事情的一面。
04:58
we're only getting part of the story.
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05:00
Left out, for instance, are the many cases
that are resolved by guilty pleas,
that are resolved by guilty pleas,
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例如, 这样的话会漏掉
很多以有罪抗辩、
很多以有罪抗辩、
而不是审判结案的案件。
05:05
not trials.
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05:06
From TV and news headlines,
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从电视和新闻头条中所看到的,
你可能会认为
审判是我们法律体系中的常态,
审判是我们法律体系中的常态,
05:08
you may think that trials are the norm
in our legal system,
in our legal system,
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但现实是, 美国 97% 的法律案件
05:11
but the reality is that 97 percent
of legal cases in the US
of legal cases in the US
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是通过有罪抗辩
而不是审判来结案的。
而不是审判来结案的。
05:15
are resolved by pleas, not trials.
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05:18
Ninety-seven percent.
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97% 呀！
05:20
Also left out will be confessions
to more minor types of crimes
to more minor types of crimes
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还会漏掉一些
更小类型的犯罪招供,
更小类型的犯罪招供,
这些罪行通常不涉及 DNA 证据,
05:24
that don't typically involve DNA evidence
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而且，通常不会在定罪后
复查或上诉。
复查或上诉。
05:26
and aren't usually reviewed
or appealed following a conviction.
or appealed following a conviction.
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05:31
So for this reason,
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正是由于这个原因,
许多人认为
我们已知的错认罪案例
我们已知的错认罪案例
05:32
many refer to the false confessions
we actually do know about
we actually do know about
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只是一个巨大冰山的一角而已。
05:35
as the tip of a much larger iceberg.
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05:39
In our research, we found alarming rates
of false confession among teenagers.
of false confession among teenagers.
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在我们的研究中, 我们发现
青少年的错认罪率高得惊人。
青少年的错认罪率高得惊人。
05:43
We interviewed almost 200
incarcerated 14-to-17-year-olds,
incarcerated 14-to-17-year-olds,
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我们采访了近 200 名被监禁的
14 岁至 17 岁的孩子,
14 岁至 17 岁的孩子,
其中 17% 的人说
05:48
and 17 percent of them reported
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他们至少向警方做过一次错认罪。
05:49
that they'd made at least
one false confession to police.
one false confession to police.
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05:54
What's also shocking to most is that,
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让大多数人感到震惊的是,
05:57
in interrogations in the US,
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在美国的审讯中,
允许警察
像审讯成年人一样审问青少年,
像审讯成年人一样审问青少年,
05:59
police are allowed to interrogate
juveniles just like adults.
juveniles just like adults.
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所以，警察可以对他们撒谎--
06:02
So they can lie to them --
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06:04
blatant lies like, "We have
your fingerprints,
your fingerprints,
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明目张胆的谎言如,
"我们有你的指纹,
"我们有你的指纹,
我们有你的 DNA;
06:08
we have your DNA;
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你的朋友就在大厅里，
说这完全是你的主意。”
说这完全是你的主意。”
06:09
your friend is down the hall
saying that this was all your idea."
saying that this was all your idea."
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06:14
Lying to suspects is banned
in the UK, for example,
in the UK, for example,
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例如, 英国
禁止警察对嫌犯撒谎,
禁止警察对嫌犯撒谎,
但这在美国合法的,
06:17
but legal here in the US,
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即使是对待像布兰登·戴斯这样
智力受损的青少年。
智力受损的青少年。
06:19
even with intellectually impaired teens
like Brendan Dassey.
like Brendan Dassey.
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06:24
In our research, most of the incarcerated
teens that we interviewed
teens that we interviewed
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在我们的研究中, 我们采访过的
多数被监禁的青少年说，
多数被监禁的青少年说，
他们经历过
没有律师或父母在场情况下的
没有律师或父母在场情况下的
06:27
reported experiencing
high-pressure police interrogations
high-pressure police interrogations
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警察高压审讯。
06:30
without lawyers or parents present.
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06:33
More than 80 percent described
having been threatened by the police,
having been threatened by the police,
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超过 80% 的人描述说
曾遭受警察威胁,
曾遭受警察威胁,
包括可能会在狱中
被强奸或杀害威胁，
被强奸或杀害威胁，
06:36
including with the possibility
of being raped or killed in jail
of being raped or killed in jail
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或被威胁当作成年人受审。
06:40
or being tried as an adult.
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06:42
These maximization strategies are designed
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这些效果最大化策略的目的
是为了震慑嫌疑犯，
让他们觉得抵赖毫无意义,
让他们觉得抵赖毫无意义,
06:45
to make suspects feel
like denials are pointless
like denials are pointless
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而认罪是唯一的选择。
06:48
and confession is the only option.
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06:51
So you may have heard of playing
the role of "good cop/bad cop," right?
the role of "good cop/bad cop," right?
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所以，你可能听说过分饰
"好警察/坏警察" 角色的策略吧？
"好警察/坏警察" 角色的策略吧？
刚才视频中
警察扮演的正是坏警察。
警察扮演的正是坏警察。
06:54
Well, this is bad cop.
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06:56
Juveniles are more suggestible
and susceptible to social influence,
and susceptible to social influence,
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青少年更易接受暗示、
更容易受到社会影响,
更容易受到社会影响,
就像审讯中
来自权威人物的
来自权威人物的
07:02
like the intense pressure
accusations and suggestions
accusations and suggestions
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强压指控和建议。
07:05
coming from authority
figures in interrogations.
figures in interrogations.
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07:09
More than 70 percent
of the teens in our study said
of the teens in our study said
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在我们的研究中,
超过 70% 的青少年说,
超过 70% 的青少年说,
警方曾试图与他们 "交朋友"
07:12
that the police had tried
to "befriend" them
to "befriend" them
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或暗示希望在审讯中帮助他们。
07:14
or indicate a desire to help them out
during the interrogation.
during the interrogation.
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07:18
These are referred to
as "minimization strategies,"
as "minimization strategies,"
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这些被称为 "最小化策略",
它们旨在向嫌疑犯传达同情和理解,
07:21
and they're designed to convey
sympathy and understanding to the suspect,
sympathy and understanding to the suspect,
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他们暗示：
认罪会导致更宽大的处理。
认罪会导致更宽大的处理。
07:25
and they imply that a confession
will result in more lenient treatment.
will result in more lenient treatment.
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07:30
So in the classic
good-cop-bad-cop oversimplification
good-cop-bad-cop oversimplification
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所以在经典的好警察-坏警察
过于简单化的审讯中,
07:33
of police interrogations,
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这位扮演 "好警察"。
07:35
this is "good cop."
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（视频）警察1：布兰登, 在这里
你只有说实话才能帮你, 明不明白？
你只有说实话才能帮你, 明不明白？
07:36
(Video) P1: Honesty here, Brendan,
is the thing that's going to help you, OK?
is the thing that's going to help you, OK?
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不管你做了什么，
07:40
No matter what you did,
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我们都能解决的，明白吗？
07:41
we can work through that, OK?
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我们虽然并不能许诺什么,
07:43
We can't make any promises,
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但无论你做了什么,
我们都会支持你的, 知道吗？
我们都会支持你的, 知道吗？
07:45
but we'll stand behind you
no matter what you did, OK?
no matter what you did, OK?
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07:50
LM: "No matter what you did,
we can work through that."
we can work through that."
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琳达思·马洛：“不论你做了什么，
我们都能解决。”
我们都能解决。”
像你刚才看到的那样，
警察给出了宽大处理的暗示，
警察给出了宽大处理的暗示，
07:53
Hints of leniency like you
just saw with Brendan
just saw with Brendan
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这在青少年中尤其有说服力,
07:55
are especially powerful among adolescents,
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一部分原因是，他们
对好处和风险的评估异于成年人。
对好处和风险的评估异于成年人。
07:58
in part because they evaluate reward
and risk differently than adults do.
and risk differently than adults do.
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08:03
Confessing brings an immediate reward
to the suspect, right?
to the suspect, right?
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认罪会
立刻给嫌犯带来好处，对吧？
立刻给嫌犯带来好处，对吧？
高压、恼人的审讯终于结束了！
08:06
Now the stressful, unpleasant
interrogation is over.
interrogation is over.
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08:09
So confessing may seem like
the best option to most teens,
the best option to most teens,
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因此, 对于多数十几岁的孩子来说,
服罪似乎是最好的选择，
服罪似乎是最好的选择，
他们却没那么关心
08:13
who are less focused on that long-term
risk of conviction and punishment
risk of conviction and punishment
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随之而来的
因为认罪
因为认罪
08:17
down the road
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而导致的定罪和惩罚的长期风险。
08:18
as a result of that confession.
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08:20
I think we can all agree
that thoughtful, long-term planning
that thoughtful, long-term planning
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我想大家都认同这一点：
进行深思熟虑的长远规划
进行深思熟虑的长远规划
并不是我们所知道的
多数青少年的强项。
多数青少年的强项。
08:23
is not a strength of most
teenagers that we know.
teenagers that we know.
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08:27
And by and large,
the legal system seems to get
the legal system seems to get
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总的来说, 法律制度似乎了解
应该区别对待
年轻的受害者和证人。
年轻的受害者和证人。
08:29
that young victims and witnesses
should be treated differently than adults.
should be treated differently than adults.
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但当轮到年轻的嫌犯时,
却没有区别对待之说了。
却没有区别对待之说了。
08:33
But when it comes to young suspects,
it's like the kid gloves come off.
it's like the kid gloves come off.
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08:38
And treating juveniles as though
they're adults in interrogations
they're adults in interrogations
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在审讯中，
把青少年当成年人对待
把青少年当成年人对待
是个问题，
08:41
is a problem,
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因为数以百计的
08:42
because literally hundreds
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权威心理和神经科学研究证明：
08:44
of psychological
and neuroscientific studies
and neuroscientific studies
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青少年的思考方式异于成年人,
08:46
tell us that juveniles
do not think like adults,
do not think like adults,
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他们的做事方式不像成年人,
08:48
they do not behave like adults,
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他们的构造不像成人。
08:50
and they're not built like adults.
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08:53
Adolescent brains are different
from adult brains --
from adult brains --
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青春期的大脑
与成年后的大脑不同--
与成年后的大脑不同--
甚至解剖结果也不一样。
08:56
even anatomically.
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08:58
So there are important changes happening
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因此, 青春期的大脑
在结构和功能方面
发生了重大变化,
发生了重大变化,
09:00
in the structure and function
of the brain during adolescence,
of the brain during adolescence,
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特别是前额皮质
和大脑边缘系统，
和大脑边缘系统，
09:04
especially in the prefrontal cortex
and the limbic system,
and the limbic system,
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而大脑的这些区域
09:07
and these are areas that are crucial
for things like self-control,
for things like self-control,
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对自我控制、决策、
09:11
decision-making,
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情绪处理、管控、
09:13
emotion processing and regulation
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09:15
and sensitivity to reward and risk,
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以及对收益与风险的
敏感程度，
敏感程度，
09:18
all of which can affect how you function
in a stressful circumstance,
in a stressful circumstance,
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所有这些都会影响到
在紧张环境中如何应对,
在紧张环境中如何应对,
比如警察的审讯。
09:21
like a police interrogation.
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09:23
We need to educate law enforcement,
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我们需要教育执法人员、
律师、法官和陪审员,
09:26
attorneys, judges and jurors
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让他们了解青少年的发展限制、
09:28
on juveniles' developmental limitations
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了解在高风险审讯中
如何进行审讯。
如何进行审讯。
09:30
and how they can play out
in a high-stakes interrogation.
in a high-stakes interrogation.
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09:34
In one national survey of police officers,
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一项对全国范围内
警察的调查结果显示,
警察的调查结果显示,
实际上有 75% 的警察
申请进行特殊培训---
申请进行特殊培训---
09:36
75 percent of them actually requested
specialized training
specialized training
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培训何与儿童和青少年交谈---
09:39
in how to talk to children
and adolescents --
and adolescents --
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他们中的大多数
根本没受过这样的培训。
根本没受过这样的培训。
09:42
most of them had had none.
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09:44
We also need to consider having special
protections in place for juveniles.
protections in place for juveniles.
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我们还需要考虑
为青少年提供特殊保护。
为青少年提供特殊保护。
今年早些时候，在法官
推翻戴斯原判的91页判决书中,
推翻戴斯原判的91页判决书中,
09:48
In his 91-page decision to overturn
Dassey's conviction earlier this year,
Dassey's conviction earlier this year,
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他特别强调: 在审讯室里审讯时，
09:53
the judge made a big deal about the fact
that Dassey had no parent
that Dassey had no parent
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戴斯没有父母
09:56
or other allied adult
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或其他成年亲属在场陪同。
09:57
in the interrogation room with him.
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10:00
So here's a clip of Brendan talking
to his mom after he confessed,
to his mom after he confessed,
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下面是布兰登服罪后，
与妈妈之间的对话片段,
与妈妈之间的对话片段,
显然为时已太晚！
10:04
when it was obviously
far too late for him.
far too late for him.
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10:08
(Video) Mom: What do you mean?
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（视频）妈妈: 你什么意思？
布莱登：就好像, 如果他的故事是不同的,
10:09
Brendan: Like, if his story
is, like, different,
is, like, different,
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好像我从来没有做过什么呀。
10:12
like I never did nothing or something.
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10:15
M: Did you?
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妈妈：你没做吗？
10:19
Huh?
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啊？
布莱登：不是我做的。
10:20
B: Not really.
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10:22
M: What do you mean, "Not really"?
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妈妈：你说“不是我做的”
是什么意思？
是什么意思？
10:25
B: They got into my head.
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布莱登：它们跑到我脑子里去了。
10:27
LM: So he sums it up pretty
beautifully there:
beautifully there:
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琳达思·马洛：布莱登总结得很贴切：
“它们跑到我脑子里去了！”
10:29
"They got into my head."
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我们不知道
结果是否会有所不同，
结果是否会有所不同，
10:30
We don't know if the outcome
would have been different for Brendan
would have been different for Brendan
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如果当时布兰登的妈妈
在审讯室陪着他的话。
在审讯室陪着他的话。
10:34
if his mom had been
in the interrogation room with him.
in the interrogation room with him.
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不过，很可能是不同的结局。
10:36
But it's certainly possible.
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10:38
In our research, only seven percent
of incarcerated teens,
of incarcerated teens,
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在我们的研究中,
仅7%的监禁少年
（他们中大多数与警察打过无数次交道）
（他们中大多数与警察打过无数次交道）
10:42
most of whom had had numerous
encounters with police,
encounters with police,
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在作为嫌疑犯被盘问时，
10:45
had ever had a parent or attorney
in the room with them
in the room with them
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曾有家长或律师在场陪同，
10:48
when they were questioned as a suspect.
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很少有人提出让父母
或律师在场。
或律师在场。
10:50
Few had ever asked for a parent
or attorney to be present.
or attorney to be present.
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10:55
And you see this
in lower-stake situations, too.
in lower-stake situations, too.
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在低风险的审讯中，
你看到的情况与此类似。
你看到的情况与此类似。
我们在佛罗里达国际大学的实验室
做过一个模拟审讯实验,
做过一个模拟审讯实验,
10:57
We did a mock interrogation
experiment in our lab here at FIU --
experiment in our lab here at FIU --
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当然有父母对所有未成年人的许可,
11:02
with parent permission
for all minors, of course,
for all minors, of course,
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以及所有相关的道德认证。
11:04
and all the appropriate ethical approvals.
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11:07
We falsely accused teens and adults
of cheating on a study task --
of cheating on a study task --
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我们错误地指责这些青少年
和成年人在一项学习任务上作弊--
和成年人在一项学习任务上作弊--
这是一种学术上的欺诈行为--
11:11
an academic dishonesty offense --
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我们告诉他们, 这和
在课堂上作弊一样的性质恶劣。
在课堂上作弊一样的性质恶劣。
11:13
that we told them was as serious
as cheating in a class.
as cheating in a class.
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11:17
In reality, participants
had witnessed a peer cheat,
had witnessed a peer cheat,
228
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实际情况是，实验者
目睹了一位同龄人作弊，
目睹了一位同龄人作弊，
实际上，
这人是我们研究团队的成员，
这人是我们研究团队的成员，
11:19
someone who was actually part
of our research team
of our research team
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声称自己目前正留校察看。
11:22
and was allegedly on academic probation.
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11:25
And we gave everyone a tough choice:
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我们让每个人
做出艰难选择:
做出艰难选择:
选择失去
因参加研究课题而得的额外学分,
因参加研究课题而得的额外学分,
11:27
you can lose your extra credit
for participating in the study
for participating in the study
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或者选择控告同伴,
11:30
or accuse your peer,
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选择后者的话，留校察看的同伴
可能会因此被学校开除！
可能会因此被学校开除！
11:31
who will probably be expelled
because of his academic probation status.
because of his academic probation status.
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当然, 在现实中,
这些后果都不会发生,
这些后果都不会发生,
11:35
Of course, in reality, none of these
consequences would have panned out,
consequences would have panned out,
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3481
而且，我们随后向所有实验者
进行了全面的汇报。
进行了全面的汇报。
11:39
and we fully debriefed
all of the participants afterward.
all of the participants afterward.
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但大多数青少年--
59%的人--
59%的人--
11:41
But most teenagers --
59 percent of them --
59 percent of them --
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签署了认罪声明,
11:45
signed the confession statement,
238
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1557
错误地承担了作弊的责任。
11:47
falsely taking responsibility
for the cheating.
for the cheating.
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2303
11:50
Only three teens out of 74,
240
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2458
74 人中，
只有 3 个十几岁的孩子，
只有 3 个十几岁的孩子，
或者说只有约 4% 的人，
11:53
or about four percent of them,
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在当我们控告他们作弊时，
提出要与父母交谈,
提出要与父母交谈,
11:54
asked to talk to a parent
when we accused them of cheating,
when we accused them of cheating,
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3330
尽管事实上在整个研究过程中，
11:57
despite the fact that for most of them,
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他们多数人的父母
就一直在隔壁房间坐着。
就一直在隔壁房间坐着。
11:59
their parent was literally sitting
in the next room during the study.
in the next room during the study.
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3357
12:04
Of course, cheating is far from murder,
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当然，我们也知道，
作弊
远比不上谋杀那么严重，
远比不上谋杀那么严重，
12:07
and I know that.
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但有趣的是，那么多十来岁的孩子，
很明显孩子多于成年人，
很明显孩子多于成年人，
12:08
But it's interesting that so many teens,
significantly more teens than adults,
significantly more teens than adults,
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签署了认罪书,
承认自己作弊。
承认自己作弊。
12:13
signed the confession
saying that they cheated.
saying that they cheated.
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3183
12:17
They hadn't cheated,
249
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1576
他们并没有作弊,
但他们签署了这份
承认自己作弊的文件，
承认自己作弊的文件，
12:18
but they signed this form anyway
saying that they had,
saying that they had,
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在这种状况下，他们几乎
没有尝试让父母参与进来，
没有尝试让父母参与进来，
12:21
rarely attempting to involve
a parent in the situation.
a parent in the situation.
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12:25
Other studies tell the same story.
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其它研究结果也与此类似。
12:27
Over 90 percent of juveniles
waive their Miranda rights
waive their Miranda rights
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90% 以上的青少年没有使用
米兰达权利（保持沉默的权利）,
米兰达权利（保持沉默的权利）,
在没有律师或父母在场的情况下，
他们直接回答警察盘问。
他们直接回答警察盘问。
12:30
and submit to police questioning
without lawyers or parents present.
without lawyers or parents present.
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12:34
In England and Wales, interrogations
of juveniles must be conducted
of juveniles must be conducted
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在英格兰和威尔士,
对少年犯的审讯
必须在 "合适的成年人" 面前进行,
必须在 "合适的成年人" 面前进行,
12:38
in the presence of an "appropriate adult,"
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如父母、监护人
或社会工作者。
或社会工作者。
12:40
like a parent, guardian or social worker.
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12:43
And this isn't something
youth have to ask for --
youth have to ask for --
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这是法律的刚性要求---
根本不需要年轻人自己提出！
根本不需要年轻人自己提出！
这样做很好，因为研究表明
12:45
which is great, because research
shows that they won't --
shows that they won't --
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青少年不会提出这样的要求。
12:48
it's automatic.
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12:51
Now, having an appropriate adult
safeguard for juveniles here in the US
safeguard for juveniles here in the US
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现在, 为美国的青少年
提供适当的成年人保护，
提供适当的成年人保护，
并不是改善警察对年轻人
盘问现状的万能药，
盘问现状的万能药，
12:54
would not be a cure-all for improving
police questioning of youth.
police questioning of youth.
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12:59
Unfortunately, parents often lack
the knowledge and legal sophistication
the knowledge and legal sophistication
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不幸的是, 父母往往
缺乏知识和法律经验，
缺乏知识和法律经验，
因而无法为孩子提供合适的建议。
13:03
to appropriately advise their children.
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13:05
You can just look at the case
of the Central Park Five:
of the Central Park Five:
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你只要看一下
中央公园五少年案就明白了：
中央公园五少年案就明白了：
1989 年，五名十几岁的孩子
错误地承认了一宗残暴的帮派强奸案,
错误地承认了一宗残暴的帮派强奸案,
13:08
five teenagers who falsely confessed
to a brutal gang rape in 1989,
to a brutal gang rape in 1989,
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审讯时，他们的父母
都在现场陪伴。
都在现场陪伴。
13:13
with their parents by their sides.
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13:16
And it took over a decade
to clear their names.
to clear their names.
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为了洗清他们的罪名，
竟然花了十几年的时间。
竟然花了十几年的时间。
13:19
So the appropriate adult
really should be an attorney
really should be an attorney
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所以，合适的成年人
应该是律师，
应该是律师，
或者受过专门训练的
儿童权益倡导者。
儿童权益倡导者。
13:22
or perhaps a trained child advocate.
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13:26
Overturning Dassey's conviction, the judge
pointed out that there's no federal law
pointed out that there's no federal law
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在推翻对戴斯的定罪后，
法官指出,
法官指出,
没有任何联邦法律要求警察
哪怕是通知一下被审讯的
哪怕是通知一下被审讯的
13:30
requiring that the police
even inform a juvenile's parent
even inform a juvenile's parent
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青少年的父母,
13:33
that the juvenile is being questioned
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或者尊重该少年的请求
在审讯时有家长在场。
在审讯时有家长在场。
13:35
or honor that juvenile's request
to have a parent in the room.
to have a parent in the room.
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13:39
So if you think about all
of this together for a second:
of this together for a second:
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所以, 如果你快速思考下面的信息:
13:42
as a country, we've decided
that juveniles cannot be trusted
that juveniles cannot be trusted
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国家层面规定，
有些事情青少年不能被信任,
如投票、
如投票、
13:46
with things like voting,
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购买香烟,
13:48
buying cigarettes,
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13:49
attending an R-rated movie
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看R级片
或开车，
13:51
or driving,
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但国家却认为青少年能作出判断
而放弃他们的米兰达权利，
而放弃他们的米兰达权利，
13:52
but they can make the judgment call
to waive their Miranda rights,
to waive their Miranda rights,
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13:56
rights that we know from research,
most teens don't understand or appreciate.
most teens don't understand or appreciate.
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而我们从研究中得知, 大多数青少年
根本不理解或领会米兰达权利。
根本不理解或领会米兰达权利。
14:01
And parents in the room: depending
on the state that you live in,
on the state that you live in,
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今天在会场的家长们：
根据你们所在的州的不同，
根据你们所在的州的不同，
你的孩子可以
在你可能并不知情的情况下，
在你可能并不知情的情况下，
14:04
your child can potentially waive
these rights without your knowledge
these rights without your knowledge
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放弃米兰达权利，而且
事先不会征求任何成年人的意见！
事先不会征求任何成年人的意见！
14:07
and without consulting any adult first.
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14:11
Now, no one -- and certainly not
me -- wants to prevent police
me -- wants to prevent police
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现在, 没有人---当然也不是我---
14:14
from doing the very important
investigative work
investigative work
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想阻止警察进行日常的、
重要的调查取证工作，
14:17
that they do every day.
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但是, 我们需要确保他们接受过
适当的、如何与青少年交谈的培训。
适当的、如何与青少年交谈的培训。
14:19
But we need to make sure that they have
appropriate training for talking to youth.
appropriate training for talking to youth.
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作为一名家长和研究人员,
14:23
As a parent and as a researcher,
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我认为
我们可以做得更好。
我们可以做得更好。
14:25
I think we can do better.
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14:28
I think we can take steps to prevent
another Brendan Dassey,
another Brendan Dassey,
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在从儿童和青少年身上
获取关键信息
获取关键信息
以解决犯罪的同时，
14:31
while still getting the crucial
information that we need
information that we need
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我们也要采取措施，
14:35
from children and teens
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去防止另一个布莱登·戴斯案的发生！
14:36
to solve crimes.
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14:37
Thank you.
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谢谢大家！
14:39
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Lindsay Malloy - Developmental psychology professor, researcherLindsay Malloy studies how kids function in a legal system that was designed for adults.
Why you should listen
Dr. Lindsay Malloy has devoted her career to improving justice for vulnerable youth, including working to develop more appropriate interrogation methods and investigative interviewing techniques for children and teens.
Malloy received her PhD in psychology and social behavior at the University of California, Irvine before conducting postdoctoral work at the University of Cambridge in England. After earning tenure at Florida International University in Miami, FL, she moved to Canada where she is now an Associate Professor in the Faculty of Social Science and Humanities at the University of Ontario Institute of Technology in Oshawa, ON. Malloy's research has been funded by the US National Science Foundation, Eunice Kennedy Shriver National Institute of Child Health and Human Development (NICHD) and the US Department of Health and Human Services. She has received early career awards from the American Psychology-Law Society (Division 41 of the American Psychological Association), the Society for Child and Family Policy and Practice (Division 37 of the American Psychological Association) and the International Investigative Interviewing Research Group, for her contributions to science, policy and practice.
Lindsay Malloy | Speaker | TED.com