ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Deborah Lipstadt - Historian
Deborah Lipstadt's research focuses on the development of Holocaust denial and how to fight for the truth in an era marked by "alternative facts."

Why you should listen

Dr. Deborah E. Lipstadt, Dorot professor of Holocaust Studies at Emory University in Atlanta, was sued for libel in 1996 by David Irving for having called him a Holocaust denier. After a ten-week trial in London in 2000, in an overwhelming victory for Lipstadt, the judge found Irving to be a "neo-Nazi polemicist" who "perverts" history and engages in "racist" and "anti-Semitic" discourse. The Daily Telegraph (London) described the trial as having "done for the new century what the Nuremberg tribunals or the Eichmann trial did for earlier generations." The Times (London) described it as "history has had its day in court and scored a crushing victory." According to the New York Times, the trial "put an end to the pretense that Mr. Irving is anything but a self-promoting apologist for Hitler."

The movie Denial, starring Rachel Weisz and Tom Wilkenson with a screenplay by David Hare, tells the story of this legal battle.  It is based on Lipstadt's book, History on Trial: My Day in Court with a Holocaust Denier (Harper Collins, 2006), and recently reissued as Denial (Harper Collins, 2016). The film was nominated for a BAFTA as one of the best British films of the year.

Lipstadt has written most recently Holocaust: An American Understanding (Rutgers, 2016), which explores how America has understood and interpreted the Holocaust since 1945.

Her previous book, The Eichmann Trial, (Schocken/Nextbook, 2011) published in commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the Eichmann trial, was called by Publisher's Weekly, "a penetrating and authoritative dissection of a landmark case and its after effects." The New York Times Book Review described Lipstadt as having "done a great service by … recovering the event as a gripping legal drama, as well as a hinge moment in Israel's history and in the world's delayed awakening to the magnitude of the Holocaust."

She has also published Beyond Belief: The American Press And The Coming Of The Holocaust, 1933-1945 (Free Press, 1986), which surveys what the American press wrote about the persecution of the Jews in the years 1933-1945.  She is currently writing a book, The Antisemitic Delusion: Letters to a Concerned Student which will be published in 2018.

At Emory, Lipstadt directs the website known as HDOT, Holocaust Denial on Trial, which contains a complete archive of the proceedings of Irving v. Penguin UK and Deborah Lipstadt. It also provides answers to frequent claims made by deniers. Lipstadt has won the Emery Williams Teaching Award, and she was selected for the award by alumni as the teacher who had most influenced them.

Lipstadt was a historical consultant to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, helping design the section of the Museum dedicated to the American Response to the Holocaust. She has held a Presidential appointment to the United States Holocaust Memorial Council (from Presidents Clinton and Obama) and was asked by President George W. Bush to represent the White House at the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.

Lipstadt has a BA from the City College of New York and an MA and PhD from Brandeis University.

More profile about the speaker
Deborah Lipstadt | Speaker | TED.com
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Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

Debra Lipstat (Deborah Lipstadt): Iza laži negiranja Holokausta

Filmed:
1,378,476 views

„Postoje činjenice, postoje mišljenja i postoje laži“, kaže istoričarka Debra Lipstat, dok iznosi izvanrednu priču o svom istraživanju o negatorima Holokausta i njihovom namernom iskrivljenju istorije. Lipstat nas podstiče da krenemo u ofanzivu protiv onih koji napadaju istinu i činjenice. „Istina nije relativna“, kaže ona.
- Historian
Deborah Lipstadt's research focuses on the development of Holocaust denial and how to fight for the truth in an era marked by "alternative facts." Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:13
I come to you todayданас to speakговорити of liarslažove,
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Dolazim pred vas danas
da bih govorila o lažovima,
sudskim parnicama
00:17
lawsuitstužbi
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i smehu.
00:18
and laughterсмех.
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00:20
The first time I heardслушао
about HolocaustHolokaust denialпорицање,
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Prvi put kada sam čula
za negiranje Holokausta,
00:24
I laughedсмејао се.
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smejala sam se.
Negiranje Holokausta?
00:25
HolocaustHolokaust denialпорицање?
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Holokausta koji se problematično ističe
00:28
The HolocaustHolokaust whichкоја has
the dubioussumnjiva distinctionразликовање
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kao najbolje dokumentovani
genocid na svetu?
00:31
of beingбиће the best-documenteddokumentovano
genocideгеноцид in the worldсвет?
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Ko bi mogao da poveruje
da se nije dogodio?
00:37
Who could believe it didn't happenдесити се?
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Razmislite o tome.
00:40
Think about it.
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Da bi negatori bili u pravu,
00:42
For denierskoji negiraju to be right,
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ko bi morao da greši?
00:44
who would have to be wrongпогрешно?
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Pa, pre svega, žrtve -
00:47
Well, first of all, the victimsжртве --
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preživeli koji su nam ispričali
svoje užasne priče.
00:49
the survivorsпреживели who have told us
theirњихова harrowingagonija storiesприче.
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Ko još bi morao da greši?
00:55
Who elseдруго would have to be wrongпогрешно?
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Posmatrači.
00:58
The bystandersprolaznici.
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Ljudi koji su živeli u mnogim gradićima,
selima i većim gradovima
01:00
The people who livedживели in the myriadsbezbroj
of townsградови and villagesсела and citiesградова
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na Istočnom frontu,
01:04
on the EasternIstočne frontфронт,
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koji su posmatrali svoje susede
kako ih okupljaju -
01:06
who watchedгледао theirњихова neighborskomšije
be roundedZaokružuje up --
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muškarce, žene, decu, mlade, stare -
01:08
menмушкарци, womenЖене, childrenдеца, youngмлади, oldстари --
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i odvode na periferiju grada
01:11
and be marchedmarširali
to the outskirtsпериферије of the townГрад
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da bi ih ubili
i ostavili mrtve u jarugama.
01:14
to be shotпуцањ and left deadмртав in ditchesjarke.
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Ili Poljaci,
01:17
Or the PolesPoljaci,
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koji su živeli u gradićima i selima
u okolini logora smrti,
01:19
who livedживели in townsградови and villagesсела
around the deathсмрт campsкампови,
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koji su dan za danom gledali
01:24
who watchedгледао day after day
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dok su vozovi odlazili puni ljudi
01:26
as the trainsвозови wentотишао in filledиспуњен with people
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i vraćali se prazni.
01:29
and cameДошао out emptyпразно.
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Ali pre svega, ko bi morao da greši?
01:31
But aboveгоре all, who would have to be wrongпогрешно?
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Počinioci.
01:36
The perpetratorspočinioci.
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01:38
The people who say, "We did it.
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Ljudi koji kažu: „Mi smo to učinili.
Ja sam to učinio.“
01:41
I did it."
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Možda dodaju napomenu.
01:43
Now, maybe they addдодати a caveatUpozorenje.
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Kažu: „Nisam imao izbora;
bio sam primoran da to uradim.“
01:45
They say, "I didn't have a choiceизбор;
I was forcedприсиљен to do it."
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Ali ipak kažu: „Uradio sam to.“
01:50
But nonethelessипак, they say, "I did it."
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01:53
Think about it.
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Razmislite o tome.
01:55
In not one warрат crimesza zločine trialсуђење
sinceОд the endкрај of WorldSvet WarRat IIII
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Ni na jednom suđenju za ratne zločine
od kraja Drugog svetskog rata
02:01
has a perpetratorizvršilac of any nationalitynacionalnost
ever said, "It didn't happenдесити се."
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počinilac nijedne nacionalnosti
nikada nije rekao: „To se nije desilo.“
02:09
Again, they mayможе have said, "I was forcedприсиљен,"
but never that it didn't happenдесити се.
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Opet, možda su rekli: „Bio sam primoran“,
ali nikada da se nije dogodilo.
02:13
HavingImati thought that throughкроз,
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Razmislivši o svemu tome,
02:15
I decidedодлучио denialпорицање was not
going to be on my agendaдневни ред;
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rešila sam da se negiranje
neće naći na mom rasporedu;
02:19
I had biggerвеће things to worryзабринути about,
to writeпиши about, to researchистраживање,
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imala sam veće stvari o kojima
bih brinula, pisala i istraživala,
02:22
and I movedпреселила се on.
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pa sam produžila dalje.
Nešto više od decenije kasnije,
02:24
Fast-forwardPremotavanje a little over a decadeдекада,
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dva starija akademika -
02:27
and two seniorвиши scholarsNaučnici --
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dvojica među najistaknutijim
istoričarima Holokausta -
02:29
two of the mostнајвише prominentistaknuti historiansistoričari
of the HolocaustHolokaust --
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prišli su mi i rekli:
02:32
approachedприближио се me and said,
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„Debra, hajdemo na kafu.
02:34
"DeborahDeborah, let's have coffeeкафу.
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Imamo ideju za istraživanje
za koju mislimo da je savršena za tebe.“
02:35
We have a researchистраживање ideaидеја
that we think is perfectсавршен for you."
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Zaintrigirana i polaskana
time što su prišli meni sa idejom
02:39
IntriguedZaintrigiralo and flatteredlaskao
that they cameДошао to me with an ideaидеја
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i pomislili da sam vredna toga,
02:43
and thought me worthyдостојан of it,
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upitala sam: „Šta je u pitanju?“
02:44
I askedпитао, "What is it?"
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02:47
And they said, "HolocaustHolokaust denialпорицање."
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A oni su rekli: „Negiranje Holokausta.“
02:51
And for the secondдруго time, I laughedсмејао се.
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Po drugi put sam se nasmejala.
Negiranje Holokausta?
02:54
HolocaustHolokaust denialпорицање?
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Ljudi koji misle da je Zemlja ravna ploča?
02:56
The FlatStan EarthZemlja folksљуди?
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Ljudi koji misle da je Elvis živ?
02:58
The Elvis-is-aliveElvis je živ people?
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Njih treba da izučavam?
03:00
I should studyстудија them?
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A ova dvojica su rekli:
03:03
And these two guys said,
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„Da, zaintrigirani smo.
03:04
"Yeah, we're intriguedzaintrigiralo.
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U čemu je stvar sa njima?
03:07
What are they about?
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Koji im je cilj?
03:08
What's theirњихова objectiveобјективан?
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Kako uspevaju da ubede ljude
da poveruju u ono što govore?“
03:10
How do they manageуправљати to get people
to believe what they say?"
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03:14
So thinkingразмишљање, if they thought
it was worthwhileвредно,
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Pomislih, ako oni misle
da je to vredno truda,
prihvatila bih se trenutne razonode -
03:18
I would take a momentaryTrenutna diversionпреусмеравање --
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možda na godinu dana,
možda dve, tri, možda čak i četiri -
03:21
maybe a yearгодине, maybe two,
threeтри, maybe even fourчетири --
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u akademskom smislu, to je na trenutak.
03:24
in academicакадемски termsуслови, that's momentaryTrenutna.
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(Smeh)
03:26
(LaughterSmeh)
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Radimo vrlo sporo.
03:28
We work very slowlyполако.
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(Smeh)
03:30
(LaughterSmeh)
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I posmatrala bih ih.
03:32
And I would look at them.
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Tako sam i uradila.
03:33
So I did.
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Sprovela sam istraživanje
i došla sam do mnogo stvari,
03:35
I did my researchистраживање, and I cameДошао up
with a numberброј of things,
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a dve među njima bih želela
da danas podelim sa vama.
03:37
two of whichкоја I'd like to shareОбјави
with you todayданас.
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Prva -
03:40
One:
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negatori su vukovi u jagnjećoj koži.
03:41
denierskoji negiraju are wolvesVukovi in sheep'sovce clothingодећа.
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Svi su isti: nacisti, neonacisti -
03:47
They are the sameисти: NazisNacisti, neo-Nazisneonacista --
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možete da odlučite
da li ćete staviti „neo“ ili ne.
03:50
you can decideодлучити whetherда ли је you want
to put a "neoNeo" there or not.
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Ali kada sam ih pogledala,
03:54
But when I lookedпогледао at them,
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nisam videla nikakve uniforme
kao iz Šucštafela,
03:57
I didn't see any SS-likeSS-kao uniformsуниформе,
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simbole na zidu poput svastike,
04:01
swastika-likekukasti krst-kao symbolsсимболи on the wallзид,
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pozdrave „zig hajl“ -
04:05
SiegZig HeilHeil salutestituliranja --
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ništa od toga.
04:07
noneниједан of that.
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Umesto toga sam pronašla
04:08
What I foundнашао insteadуместо тога
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ljude koji su paradirali
kao ugledni akademici.
04:11
were people paradingParadiranje
as respectableугледан academicsакадемици.
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Šta su imali?
04:16
What did they have?
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Imali su institut.
04:18
They had an instituteИнститут.
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„Institut za istorijski pregled“.
04:19
An "InstituteInstitut for HistoricalIstorijski ReviewPregled."
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04:24
They had a journalчасопис -- a slickSlik journalчасопис --
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Imali su časopis - uglađen časopis -
04:26
a "JournalDnevnik of HistoricalIstorijski ReviewPregled."
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„Časopis istorijskog pregleda“,
04:30
One filledиспуњен with papersновине --
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takav da je bio pun radova -
04:33
footnote-ladenpreopterećene fusnote papersновине.
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radova krcatim fusnotama.
04:35
And they had a newново nameиме.
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Imali su i novo ime.
Ne neonacisti,
04:38
Not neo-Nazisneonacista,
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ne antisemiti -
04:40
not anti-Semitesanti-semitizma. --
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revizionisti.
04:43
revisionistsrevizionista.
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04:44
They said, "We are revisionistsrevizionista.
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Rekli su: „Mi smo revizionisti.
04:47
We are out to do one thing:
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Rešeni smo da uradimo jednu stvar -
04:49
to reviserevidirati mistakesгрешке in historyисторија."
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da ispravimo greške u istoriji.“
Međutim, sve što je trebalo da uradite
je da zađete malo ispod površine,
04:54
But all you had to do was go
one inchинч belowдоле the surfaceповршина,
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i šta biste tu pronašli?
04:59
and what did you find there?
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Isto ulagivanje Hitleru,
05:01
The sameисти adulationdodvoravanje of HitlerHitler,
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veličanje Trećeg rajha,
05:04
praiseпохвала of the ThirdTreći ReichRajh,
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antisemitizam, rasizam, predrasude.
05:06
anti-SemitismAnti-semitizam., racismrasizam, prejudicepredrasude.
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To je ono što me je zaintrigiralo.
05:09
This is what intriguedzaintrigiralo me.
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Bio je to antisemitizam,
rasizam i predrasude
05:12
It was anti-SemitismAnti-semitizam., racismrasizam, prejudicepredrasude,
paradingParadiranje as rationalрационално discourseдискурс.
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koji su paradirali
kao da su racionalni diskurs.
05:20
The other thing I foundнашао --
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Druga stvar koju sam otkrila -
05:22
manyмноги of us have been taughtнаучио to think
there are factsчињенице and there are opinionsмишљења --
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mnogi među nama su naučeni da misle
da postoje činjenice i mišljenja -
nakon izučavanja negatora,
05:26
after studyingстудирање denierskoji negiraju,
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05:27
I think differentlyдругачије.
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imam drugačije mišljenje.
05:29
There are factsчињенице,
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Postoje činjenice,
05:31
there are opinionsмишљења,
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postoje mišljenja
05:32
and there are liesлажи.
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i postoje laži.
05:35
And what denierskoji negiraju want to do
is take theirњихова liesлажи,
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A ono što negatori žele
jeste da uzmu svoje laži,
05:40
dressхаљина them up as opinionsмишљења --
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zaodenu ih kao da su mišljenja -
05:42
maybe edgynervozan opinionsмишљења,
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možda zaoštrena mišljenja,
05:44
maybe sortврста of out-of-the-boxizlaz iz kutije opinionsмишљења --
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možda mišljenja koja izlaze
iz uobičajenih okvira,
05:46
but then if they're opinionsмишљења,
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ali ako su to mišljenja,
05:48
they should be partдео of the conversationразговор.
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onda bi trebalo da budu deo razgovora.
05:50
And then they encroachdirnuli on the factsчињенице.
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A zatim zadiru u činjenice.
05:55
I publishedобјављен my work --
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Objavila sam svoj rad -
05:56
the bookкњига was publishedобјављен,
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objavljena je knjiga
05:58
"DenyingPoričući the HolocaustHolokaust: The GrowingRaste
AssaultNapad on TruthIstina and MemoryMemorija,"
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„Negiranje Holokausta,
uznapredovali napad na istinu i sećanje“
06:01
it cameДошао out in manyмноги differentразличит countriesземље,
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i izašla je u mnogo različitih zemalja,
uključujući ovde,
kod „Pingvina“ u Britaniji.
06:03
includingукључујући here in PenguinPingvin UKVELIKA BRITANIJA,
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06:05
and I was doneГотово with those folksљуди
and readyспреман to moveпотез on.
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Završila sam sa tim ljudima
i bila sam spremna da produžim dalje.
06:10
Then cameДошао the letterписмо from PenguinPingvin UKVELIKA BRITANIJA.
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Onda je stiglo pismo
od britanskog „Pingvina“.
06:14
And for the thirdтрећи time, I laughedсмејао се ...
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Po treći put sam se nasmejala -
06:19
mistakenlygreškom.
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greškom.
06:20
I openedотворен the letterписмо,
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Otvorila sam pismo
06:22
and it informedинформисани me that DavidDavid IrvingIrving
was bringingдоносећи a libelzbog klevete suitодело againstпротив me
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i ono me je obavestilo da Dejvid Irving
protiv mene podnosi tužbu zbog klevete
06:28
in the UnitedUjedinjeni KingdomKraljevstvo
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u Ujedinjenom Kraljevstvu
06:30
for callingзове him a HolocaustHolokaust denierDernijere.
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jer sam ga nazvala negatorom Holokausta.
Dejvid Irving tuži mene?
06:33
DavidDavid IrvingIrving suingtuži me?
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Ko je Dejvid Irving?
06:35
Who was DavidDavid IrvingIrving?
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Dejvid Irving je pisac istorijskih dela,
06:37
DavidDavid IrvingIrving was a writerписац
of historicalисторијски worksИзвођење радова,
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većinom o Drugom svetskom ratu,
06:39
mostнајвише of them about WorldSvet WarRat IIII,
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a praktično svi ti radovi
zauzimali su poziciju
06:41
and virtuallyпрактично all of those worksИзвођење радова
tookузела the positionпозиција
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da nacisti nisu stvarno bili tako loši,
06:45
that the NazisNacisti were really not so badлоше,
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a saveznici nisu zaista bili tako dobri.
06:48
and the alliessaveznici were really not so good.
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A Jevreji, šta god da im se dogodilo,
na neki način su to zaslužili.
06:51
And the JewsJevreji, whateverшта год happenedдесило to them,
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06:53
they sortврста of deservedzaslužili it.
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06:56
He knewзнала the documentsдокументи,
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Poznavao je dokumenta,
06:57
he knewзнала the factsчињенице,
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znao je činjenice,
06:59
but he somehowнекако twistedувијено them
to get this opinionмишљење.
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ali ih je nekako obrnuo
da dobije ovo mišljenje.
Nije oduvek poricao Holokaust,
07:03
He hadn'tније always been a HolocaustHolokaust denierDernijere,
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ali je krajem '80-ih godina
07:05
but in the lateкасни '80s,
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prihvatio to sa velikim žarom.
07:07
he embracedзагрли it with great vigorsnaga.
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07:11
The reasonразлог I laughedсмејао се alsoтакође
was this was a man
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Razlog mom smehu
je takođe bilo to što ovaj čovek
07:15
who not only was a HolocaustHolokaust denierDernijere,
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ne samo da je negirao Holokaust,
već je delovao prilično ponosno na to.
07:17
but seemedизгледало је quiteприлично proudпоносан of it.
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1695
07:19
Here was a man -- and I quoteкуоте --
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U pitanju je bio čovek - citiram -
07:20
who said, "I'm going to sinkлавабо
the battleshipbojni brod AuschwitzAuschwitz."
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koji je rekao:
„Potopiću bojni brod Aušvic.“
07:25
Here was a man
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U pitanju je bio čovek
07:26
who pointedпоказао to the numberброј tattooedIstetovirao
on a survivor'spreћivelog armрука and said,
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4020
koji je pokazao broj
tetoviran na ruci preživelog i rekao:
07:31
"How much moneyновац have you madeмаде
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„Koliko novca si zaradio
07:33
from havingимати that numberброј
tattooedIstetovirao on your armрука?"
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3400
od tog istetoviranog broja na ruci?“
07:37
Here was a man who said,
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1908
U pitanju je bio čovek koji je rekao:
07:39
"More people diedумро in SenatorSenator Kennedy'sKennedy je carауто
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„Više ljudi je umrlo
u automobilu senatora Kenedija
07:42
at ChappaquiddickИapakvidika
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na Čapakvidiku
07:43
than diedумро in gasгасни chambersodaje at AuschwitzAuschwitz."
159
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3314
nego što je umrlo
u gasnim komorama u Aušvicu.“
07:47
That's an AmericanAmerikanac referenceреференца,
but you can look it up.
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To je američka referenca,
ali možete je potražiti.
Ovo nije bio čovek koji je bio
iole posramljen ili suzdržan
07:51
This was not a man who seemedизгледало је
at all ashamedсрам or reticentретикент
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u vezi sa negiranjem Holokausta.
07:54
about beingбиће a HolocaustHolokaust denierDernijere.
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07:57
Now, lots of my academicакадемски
colleaguesколеге counseledsavetovao me --
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Dosta akademskih kolega me je savetovalo:
08:00
"EhEh, DeborahDeborah, just ignoreигнорисати it."
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1906
„Eh, Debra, jednostavno ignoriši to.“
08:02
When I explainedобјаснио је you can't just
ignoreигнорисати a libelzbog klevete suitодело,
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Kad sam objasnila da se tužba zbog klevete
ne može prosto ignorisati,
rekli su: „Ko će mu uopšte poverovati?“
08:06
they said, "Who'sKo je going to
believe him anywayУ сваком случају?"
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08:09
But here was the problemпроблем:
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Ali evo u čemu je bio problem.
08:11
BritishBritanski lawзакон put the onusnus,
put the burdenтерет of proofдоказ on me
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Britanski zakon mi je dodelio obavezu,
teret dokazivanja,
08:17
to proveдоказати the truthистина of what I said,
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da dokažem istinitost onoga što sam rekla,
08:19
in contrastконтраст to as it would have
been in the UnitedUjedinjeni StatesDržava
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za razliku od onoga
kako bi to bilo u Sjedinjenim Državama
08:22
and in manyмноги other countriesземље:
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i mnogim drugim zemljama -
08:24
on him to proveдоказати the falsehoodneistina.
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on bi dokazivao neistinitost tvrdnje.
Šta je to značilo?
08:27
What did that mean?
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To je značilo da, kada se ne bih borila,
08:29
That meantмислио if I didn't fightборба,
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on bi samim tim pobedio.
08:32
he would winпобедити by defaultpodrazumevani.
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A ako bi on time pobedio,
08:35
And if he wonпобедио by defaultpodrazumevani,
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mogao bi legitimno da kaže:
08:37
he could then legitimatelylegitimno say,
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„Moja verzija Holokausta,
verzija Dejvida Irvinga, je legitimna.
08:40
"My DavidDavid IrvingIrving versionверзија of the HolocaustHolokaust
is a legitimateлегитимно versionверзија.
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Ustanovljeno je
da me je Debra Lipstat oklevetala
08:45
DeborahDeborah LipstadtLipstadt was foundнашао
to have libeledlibeled me
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kada me je nazvala negatorom Holokausta.
08:47
when she calledпозвани me a HolocaustHolokaust denierDernijere.
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Samim tim, ja, Dejvid Irving,
nisam neko ko negira Holokaust.“
08:49
IpsoIpso factofakto, I, DavidDavid IrvingIrving,
am not a HolocaustHolokaust denierDernijere."
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A koja je to verzija?
08:54
And what is that versionверзија?
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08:56
There was no planплан to murderубиство the JewsJevreji,
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Nije postojao plan za ubijanje Jevreja,
08:59
there were no gasгасни chambersodaje,
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nije bilo gasnih komora,
09:01
there were no massмаса shootingspucnjava,
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nije bilo masovnih streljanja,
Hitler nije imao nikakve veze
sa bilo kakvom patnjom koja se dešavala
09:03
HitlerHitler had nothing to do
with any sufferingпатња that wentотишао on,
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09:06
and the JewsJevreji have madeмаде this all up
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i Jevreji su sve ovo izmislili
09:10
to get moneyновац from GermanyNemačka
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da dobiju novac od Nemačke
09:12
and to get a stateдржава,
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i da dobiju državu,
09:14
and they'veони су doneГотово it with the aidпомоћ
and abettanceabettance of the alliessaveznici --
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a to su uradili uz pomoć
i podsticaj saveznika -
09:17
they'veони су plantedзасадјен the documentsдокументи
and plantedзасадјен the evidenceдоказ.
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podmetnuli su dokumenta i dokaze.
09:22
I couldn'tније могао let that standстој
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Nisam mogla da dopustim da to prođe
09:24
and ever faceлице a survivorpreživeli
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i ikada se suočim sa nekim preživelim
09:27
or a childдете of survivorsпреживели.
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1975
ili detetom preživelog.
09:29
I couldn'tније могао let that standстој
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Nisam mogla da dozvolim da to prođe
09:31
and considerразмотрити myselfЈа сам
a responsibleодговоран historianисторичар.
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i smatram sebe odgovornim istoričarem.
09:37
So we foughtборио се.
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Zato smo se borili.
09:38
And for those of you
who haven'tније seenвиђено "DenialPoricanje,"
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Upozorenje za one među vama
koji nisu gledali „Negiranje“,
09:41
spoilerspojler alertупозорење:
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pobedili smo.
09:42
we wonпобедио.
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(Smeh)
09:43
(LaughterSmeh)
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(Aplauz)
09:45
(ApplauseAplauz)
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09:51
The judgeсудија foundнашао DavidDavid IrvingIrving
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Sudija je ustanovio
da je Dejvid Irving
09:56
to be a liarлажов,
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lažov, rasista, antisemita.
09:59
a racistрасистички,
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10:00
an anti-Semiteanti-semita..
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10:02
His viewпоглед of historyисторија was tendentioustendenciozan,
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Njegov pogled na istoriju
bio je tendenciozan,
10:04
he liedЛагала, he distortediskrivljena --
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lagao je, izvrtao stvari
10:06
and mostнајвише importantlyважно,
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i, što je najvažnije,
10:09
he did it deliberatelyнамерно.
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to je činio namerno.
10:11
We showedпоказао a patternобразац,
in over 25 differentразличит majorглавни instancesинстанце.
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Pokazali smo obrazac
na preko 25 različitih većih primera.
10:15
Not smallмали things -- manyмноги of us
in this audienceпублика writeпиши booksкњиге,
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To nisu male stvari - mnogi među nama
u ovoj publici pišu knjige,
10:18
are writingписање booksкњиге;
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bave se spisateljstvom;
10:19
we always make mistakesгрешке, that's why
we're gladдраго ми је to have secondдруго editionsиздања:
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uvek pravimo greške.
Zato nam je drago što postoje
druga izdanja, ispravljanje grešaka.
10:23
correctтачно the mistakesгрешке.
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10:24
(LaughterSmeh)
216
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(Smeh)
Međutim, ovde se uvek kretalo
u istom pravcu:
10:26
But these always movedпреселила се
in the sameисти directionправац:
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10:30
blameкривицу the JewsJevreji,
218
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okriviti Jevreje,
osloboditi naciste odgovornosti.
10:32
exonerateosloboditi the NazisNacisti.
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2175
10:35
But how did we winпобедити?
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1584
Ali kako smo pobedili?
10:38
What we did is followпратити his footnotesfusnote
back to his sourcesизвори.
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Sledili smo njegove fusnote
do njegovih izvora.
10:44
And what did we find?
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I šta smo otkrili?
10:45
Not in mostнајвише casesслучајева,
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1479
Ne samo u većini slučajeva
10:47
and not in the preponderanceizloћenim of casesслучајева,
224
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1968
i ne samo da to preovlađuje,
10:49
but in everyсваки singleједно instanceпример where
he madeмаде some referenceреференца to the HolocaustHolokaust,
225
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već je u svakom pojedinačnom primeru
gde je pomenuo Holokaust
10:53
that his supposedпретпостављено evidenceдоказ was distortediskrivljena,
226
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njegov navodni dokaz bio izvrnut,
10:58
half-truthpoluistina,
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poluistinit,
10:59
date-changedpromenili datum,
228
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promenjen je datum,
11:00
sequence-changedSekvenca promenio,
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izmenjen je redosled dešavanja,
11:03
someoneнеко put at a meetingсастанак who wasn'tније there.
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neko ko nije bio na sastanku
je ubačen tamo.
11:05
In other wordsречи,
he didn't have the evidenceдоказ.
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Drugim rečima, nije imao dokaze.
11:08
His evidenceдоказ didn't proveдоказати it.
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Njegovi dokazi nisu dokazivali.
11:10
We didn't proveдоказати what happenedдесило.
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Mi nismo dokazali šta se dogodilo.
Dokazali smo da je ono
što je on rekao da se dogodilo -
11:13
We provedдоказано that what he said happenedдесило --
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11:16
and by extensionпродужење, all denierskoji negiraju,
because he eitherили quotesцитате them
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i samim tim svi negatori,
jer ih ili on citira ili oni preuzimaju
argumente od njega -
11:19
or they get theirњихова argumentsаргументс from him --
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11:21
is not trueистина.
237
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nije istinito.
11:22
What they claimпотраживање --
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Ono što tvrde -
11:24
they don't have the evidenceдоказ to proveдоказати it.
239
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nemaju dokaza da to potvrde.
11:28
So why is my storyприча
more than just the storyприча
240
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4744
Zašto je moja priča više od obične priče
11:33
of a quirkyvrcava, long,
six-yearšest godina, difficultтешко lawsuitтужба,
241
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o uvrnutoj, dugoj,
šestogodišnjoj, napornoj parnici
sa američkom profesorkom
koju je dovukao u sudnicu
11:37
an AmericanAmerikanac professorпрофесор
beingбиће draggedвуче into a courtroomsudnica
242
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čovek koga je sud
po svom mišljenju proglasio
11:42
by a man that the courtсуд
declaredпроглашен in its judgmentпресуда
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za neonacističkog polemičara?
11:45
was a neo-Nazineonacističke polemicistpolemicist?
244
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Kakva je njena poruka?
11:47
What messageпорука does it have?
245
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Mislim da u kontekstu pitanja istine
11:49
I think in the contextконтекст
of the questionпитање of truthистина,
246
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ima veoma značajnu poruku.
11:52
it has a very significantзначајно messageпорука.
247
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Jer danas,
11:55
Because todayданас,
248
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kao što to dobro znamo,
11:57
as we well know,
249
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istina i činjenice su pod napadom.
11:58
truthистина and factsчињенице are underиспод assaultnapad.
250
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Društvene mreže,
uz sve dobro što su nam pružile,
12:03
SocialSocijalne mediaмедији, for all
the giftsпоклони it has givenдато us,
251
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takođe su dopustile
da se razlika između činjenica -
12:06
has alsoтакође allowedдозвољен the differenceразлика
betweenизмеђу factsчињенице -- establishedуспостављен factsчињенице --
252
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ustanovljenih činjenica -
i laži umanji.
12:12
and liesлажи
253
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12:14
to be flattenedравнати.
254
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Treće - ekstremizam.
12:16
ThirdTreći of all:
255
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12:18
extremismekstremizam.
256
726524
1471
Možda nećete videti odore Kju Kluks klana,
12:20
You mayможе not see KuKu KluxKLUX KlanKlan robesodore,
257
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3577
12:24
you mayможе not see burningгорење crosseskrstovi,
258
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2071
možda nećete videti krst koji gori,
12:26
you mayможе not even hearчујеш outrightprvom krugu
whiteбео supremacistsupermacije languageЈезик.
259
734683
4319
možda nećete čuti
ni otvoreno rasistički jezik.
Možda će koristiti nazive
„alternativna desnica“,
12:31
It mayможе go by namesимена: "alt-rightALT-desno,"
"NationalNacionalni FrontPrednja" -- pickпицк your namesимена.
260
739026
4906
„Nacionalni front“ - birajte.
Ali ispod toga se nalazi isti ekstremizam
koji sam otkrila u negiranju Holokausta,
12:35
But underneathиспод, it's that sameисти extremismekstremizam
that I foundнашао in HolocaustHolokaust denialпорицање
261
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5835
12:41
paradingParadiranje as rationalрационално discourseдискурс.
262
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a koji paradira
kao da je racionalni diskurs.
12:47
We liveживи in an ageстарост
where truthистина is on the defensiveодбрамбени.
263
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5217
Živimo u dobu u kome je istina
u odbrambenom položaju.
12:52
I'm remindedподсетио of a NewNovi YorkerYorker cartoonцртани филм.
264
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2484
To me podseća
na jedan strip iz „Njujorkera“.
12:54
A quizквиз showсхов recentlyнедавно appearedpojavio se
in "The NewNovi YorkerYorker"
265
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2520
Nedavno se u „Njujorkeru“ pojavio kviz
12:57
where the hostдомаћин of the quizквиз showсхов
is sayingговорећи to one of the contestantstakmičari,
266
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3222
u kome voditelj kviza
kaže jednom od učesnika:
„Da, gospođo, dali ste tačan odgovor.
13:00
"Yes, ma'amгоспођо, you had the right answerодговор.
267
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2309
Ali vaš protivnik
je vikao glasnije od vas,
13:03
But your opponentпротивник yelledвикао
more loudlyglasno than you did,
268
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2493
tako da on dobija poen.“
13:05
so he getsдобива the pointтачка."
269
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1525
Šta možemo da učinimo?
13:08
What can we do?
270
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1507
13:10
First of all,
271
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1377
Pre svega,
13:11
we cannotне може be beguiledobmanuti
by rationalрационално appearancesizgled.
272
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5431
ne smeju nas prevariti
prividi racionalnosti.
13:17
We'veMoramo got to look underneathиспод,
273
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1769
Moramo da sagledamo stvari iznutra,
13:19
and we will find there the extremismekstremizam.
274
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2801
a tamo ćemo pronaći ekstremizam.
13:22
SecondDrugi of all,
275
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1986
Drugo,
13:25
we mustмора understandРазумем
that truthистина is not relativeу односу.
276
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moramo shvatiti da istina nije relativna.
13:33
NumberBroj threeтри,
277
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1464
Kao treće,
13:34
we mustмора go on the offensiveофанзивно,
278
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3689
moramo krenuti u napad,
13:38
not the defensiveодбрамбени.
279
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1773
a ne u odbranu.
13:40
When someoneнеко makesчини an outrageousизузетно claimпотраживање,
280
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2607
Kada neko iznese nečuvenu tvrdnju,
13:43
even thoughипак they mayможе holdдржати
one of the highestнајвише officesканцеларије in the landземљиште,
281
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3504
čak i ako se možda nalazi
na jednom od najviših položaja u zemlji,
13:46
if not the worldсвет --
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814835
2011
ako ne i na svetu -
13:48
we mustмора say to them,
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1510
moramo reći toj osobi:
13:50
"Where'sGde je the proofдоказ?
284
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1966
„Gde je dokaz?
13:52
Where'sGde je the evidenceдоказ?"
285
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2137
Gde su činjenice koje to potvrđuju?“
13:54
We mustмора holdдржати theirњихова feetстопала to the fireватра.
286
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2927
Moramo vršiti pritisak na nju.
13:57
We mustмора not treatлијечити it as if theirњихова liesлажи
are the sameисти as the factsчињенице.
287
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Ne smemo se ophoditi
kao da su njene laži isto što i činjenice.
14:03
And as I said earlierраније,
truthистина is not relativeу односу.
288
831395
3540
Kao što sam prethodno rekla,
istina nije relativna.
14:06
ManyMnogi of us have grownодрастао up
in the worldсвет of the academyAkademija
289
834959
2856
Mnogi od nas su odrasli u akademskom svetu
i uz prosvećena liberalna razmišljanja,
14:09
and enlightenedprosvetljeno liberalLiberalni thought,
290
837839
1741
14:11
where we're taughtнаучио
everything is openотворен to debateдебате.
291
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pri čemu su nas učili
da je sve otvoreno za raspravu.
14:15
But that's not the caseслучај.
292
843164
2014
Međutim, nije tako.
14:17
There are certainизвестан things that are trueистина.
293
845202
3442
Postoje izvesne stvari koje su istinite.
14:21
There are indisputableneosporno factsчињенице --
294
849192
3020
Postoje nepobitne činjenice -
14:24
objectiveобјективан truthsистине.
295
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1690
objektivne istine.
14:26
GalileoGalileo taughtнаучио it to us centuriesвековима agoпре.
296
854519
4817
Galilej nas je tome naučio
pre mnogo vekova.
14:31
Even after beingбиће forcedприсиљен
to recantni u by the VaticanVatikan
297
859360
4667
Čak i nakon što ga je Vatikan
naterao da javno oporekne
14:36
that the EarthZemlja movedпреселила се around the SunSunce,
298
864051
2573
da se Zemlja okreće oko Sunca,
14:38
he cameДошао out,
299
866648
1154
izašao je
i šta se navodi da je izjavio?
14:39
and what is he reportedпријавили to have said?
300
867826
2310
14:42
"And yetјош увек, it still movesпотезе."
301
870160
3822
„Ipak se okreće.“
14:47
The EarthZemlja is not flatраван.
302
875342
2840
Zemlja nije ravna ploča.
14:50
The climateклима is changingпромена.
303
878206
2290
Klima se menja.
Elvis nije živ.
14:53
ElvisElvis is not aliveжив.
304
881387
2268
14:55
(LaughterSmeh)
305
883679
1535
(Smeh)
14:57
(ApplauseAplauz)
306
885238
2316
(Aplauz)
14:59
And mostнајвише importantlyважно,
307
887578
2301
I što je najvažnije,
15:01
truthистина and factчињеница are underиспод assaultnapad.
308
889903
4649
istina i činjenice su pod napadom.
15:07
The jobпосао aheadнапред of us,
309
895289
1610
Posao koji je pred nama,
15:08
the taskзадатак aheadнапред of us,
310
896923
1203
zadatak pred nama,
15:10
the challengeизазов aheadнапред of us
311
898150
1594
izazov pred nama
15:11
is great.
312
899768
1234
je veliki.
15:13
The time to fightборба is shortкратак.
313
901747
2637
Vreme za borbu je kratko.
15:17
We mustмора actчинити now.
314
905241
2843
Moramo da delujemo sada.
15:20
LaterKasnije will be too lateкасни.
315
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3245
Kasnije će biti prekasno.
15:24
Thank you very much.
316
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1262
Mnogo vam hvala.
15:25
(ApplauseAplauz)
317
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4046
(Aplauz)
Translated by Ivana Krivokuća
Reviewed by Tijana Mihajlović

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Deborah Lipstadt - Historian
Deborah Lipstadt's research focuses on the development of Holocaust denial and how to fight for the truth in an era marked by "alternative facts."

Why you should listen

Dr. Deborah E. Lipstadt, Dorot professor of Holocaust Studies at Emory University in Atlanta, was sued for libel in 1996 by David Irving for having called him a Holocaust denier. After a ten-week trial in London in 2000, in an overwhelming victory for Lipstadt, the judge found Irving to be a "neo-Nazi polemicist" who "perverts" history and engages in "racist" and "anti-Semitic" discourse. The Daily Telegraph (London) described the trial as having "done for the new century what the Nuremberg tribunals or the Eichmann trial did for earlier generations." The Times (London) described it as "history has had its day in court and scored a crushing victory." According to the New York Times, the trial "put an end to the pretense that Mr. Irving is anything but a self-promoting apologist for Hitler."

The movie Denial, starring Rachel Weisz and Tom Wilkenson with a screenplay by David Hare, tells the story of this legal battle.  It is based on Lipstadt's book, History on Trial: My Day in Court with a Holocaust Denier (Harper Collins, 2006), and recently reissued as Denial (Harper Collins, 2016). The film was nominated for a BAFTA as one of the best British films of the year.

Lipstadt has written most recently Holocaust: An American Understanding (Rutgers, 2016), which explores how America has understood and interpreted the Holocaust since 1945.

Her previous book, The Eichmann Trial, (Schocken/Nextbook, 2011) published in commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the Eichmann trial, was called by Publisher's Weekly, "a penetrating and authoritative dissection of a landmark case and its after effects." The New York Times Book Review described Lipstadt as having "done a great service by … recovering the event as a gripping legal drama, as well as a hinge moment in Israel's history and in the world's delayed awakening to the magnitude of the Holocaust."

She has also published Beyond Belief: The American Press And The Coming Of The Holocaust, 1933-1945 (Free Press, 1986), which surveys what the American press wrote about the persecution of the Jews in the years 1933-1945.  She is currently writing a book, The Antisemitic Delusion: Letters to a Concerned Student which will be published in 2018.

At Emory, Lipstadt directs the website known as HDOT, Holocaust Denial on Trial, which contains a complete archive of the proceedings of Irving v. Penguin UK and Deborah Lipstadt. It also provides answers to frequent claims made by deniers. Lipstadt has won the Emery Williams Teaching Award, and she was selected for the award by alumni as the teacher who had most influenced them.

Lipstadt was a historical consultant to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, helping design the section of the Museum dedicated to the American Response to the Holocaust. She has held a Presidential appointment to the United States Holocaust Memorial Council (from Presidents Clinton and Obama) and was asked by President George W. Bush to represent the White House at the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.

Lipstadt has a BA from the City College of New York and an MA and PhD from Brandeis University.

More profile about the speaker
Deborah Lipstadt | Speaker | TED.com

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