ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Deborah Lipstadt - Historian
Deborah Lipstadt's research focuses on the development of Holocaust denial and how to fight for the truth in an era marked by "alternative facts."

Why you should listen

Dr. Deborah E. Lipstadt, Dorot professor of Holocaust Studies at Emory University in Atlanta, was sued for libel in 1996 by David Irving for having called him a Holocaust denier. After a ten-week trial in London in 2000, in an overwhelming victory for Lipstadt, the judge found Irving to be a "neo-Nazi polemicist" who "perverts" history and engages in "racist" and "anti-Semitic" discourse. The Daily Telegraph (London) described the trial as having "done for the new century what the Nuremberg tribunals or the Eichmann trial did for earlier generations." The Times (London) described it as "history has had its day in court and scored a crushing victory." According to the New York Times, the trial "put an end to the pretense that Mr. Irving is anything but a self-promoting apologist for Hitler."

The movie Denial, starring Rachel Weisz and Tom Wilkenson with a screenplay by David Hare, tells the story of this legal battle.  It is based on Lipstadt's book, History on Trial: My Day in Court with a Holocaust Denier (Harper Collins, 2006), and recently reissued as Denial (Harper Collins, 2016). The film was nominated for a BAFTA as one of the best British films of the year.

Lipstadt has written most recently Holocaust: An American Understanding (Rutgers, 2016), which explores how America has understood and interpreted the Holocaust since 1945.

Her previous book, The Eichmann Trial, (Schocken/Nextbook, 2011) published in commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the Eichmann trial, was called by Publisher's Weekly, "a penetrating and authoritative dissection of a landmark case and its after effects." The New York Times Book Review described Lipstadt as having "done a great service by … recovering the event as a gripping legal drama, as well as a hinge moment in Israel's history and in the world's delayed awakening to the magnitude of the Holocaust."

She has also published Beyond Belief: The American Press And The Coming Of The Holocaust, 1933-1945 (Free Press, 1986), which surveys what the American press wrote about the persecution of the Jews in the years 1933-1945.  She is currently writing a book, The Antisemitic Delusion: Letters to a Concerned Student which will be published in 2018.

At Emory, Lipstadt directs the website known as HDOT, Holocaust Denial on Trial, which contains a complete archive of the proceedings of Irving v. Penguin UK and Deborah Lipstadt. It also provides answers to frequent claims made by deniers. Lipstadt has won the Emery Williams Teaching Award, and she was selected for the award by alumni as the teacher who had most influenced them.

Lipstadt was a historical consultant to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, helping design the section of the Museum dedicated to the American Response to the Holocaust. She has held a Presidential appointment to the United States Holocaust Memorial Council (from Presidents Clinton and Obama) and was asked by President George W. Bush to represent the White House at the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.

Lipstadt has a BA from the City College of New York and an MA and PhD from Brandeis University.

More profile about the speaker
Deborah Lipstadt | Speaker | TED.com
TEDxSkoll

Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

黛博拉.利普斯塔特: 否認猶太大屠殺的謊言背後

Filmed:
1,378,476 views

「有些是事實、有些是意見、有些卻是謊言。」歷史學者黛博拉.利普斯塔特講述她的研究,關於否認猶太大屠殺存在的人,以及他們蓄意扭曲歷史的故事。利普塔斯特鼓勵大家勇敢對抗攻擊真相和事實的人。「真相是絕對的,不是相對的。」
- Historian
Deborah Lipstadt's research focuses on the development of Holocaust denial and how to fight for the truth in an era marked by "alternative facts." Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:13
I come to you today今天 to speak說話 of liars騙子,
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我今天要聊說謊的人、
聊官司、
00:17
lawsuits訴訟
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00:18
and laughter笑聲.
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聊些好笑的事。
00:20
The first time I heard聽說
about Holocaust大屠殺 denial否認,
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初次聽到有人否認猶太大屠殺,
00:24
I laughed笑了.
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我就笑了。
00:25
Holocaust大屠殺 denial否認?
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否認猶太大屠殺?
00:28
The Holocaust大屠殺 which哪一個 has
the dubious可疑 distinction分別
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是那個史上最惡名昭彰,
00:31
of being存在 the best-documented最好的證明
genocide種族滅絕 in the world世界?
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被最完整記錄的猶太大屠殺嗎?
誰會相信沒有這回事?
00:37
Who could believe it didn't happen發生?
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00:40
Think about it.
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你想想看,
00:42
For deniers否認 to be right,
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如果那些否認者是對的,
那誰是錯的?
00:44
who would have to be wrong錯誤?
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00:47
Well, first of all, the victims受害者 --
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首先,受害者,
00:49
the survivors倖存者 who have told us
their harrowing悲慘 stories故事.
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說出恐怖經歷的倖存者。
00:55
Who else其他 would have to be wrong錯誤?
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還會有誰是錯的?
00:58
The bystanders旁觀者.
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旁觀者。
01:00
The people who lived生活 in the myriads無數
of towns城市 and villages村莊 and cities城市
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東方戰線上,
無數城鎮、村莊、城市的居民,
01:04
on the Eastern front面前,
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01:06
who watched看著 their neighbors鄰居
be rounded up --
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看著他們的鄰居被圍捕,
01:08
men男人, women婦女, children孩子, young年輕, old --
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不分男女老少,
01:11
and be marched遊行
to the outskirts郊區 of the town
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被驅趕到城鎮外圍,
01:14
to be shot射擊 and left dead in ditches溝渠.
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中槍後就被丟在壕溝內等死。
01:17
Or the Poles波蘭人,
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還有波蘭人,
01:19
who lived生活 in towns城市 and villages村莊
around the death死亡 camps營地,
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住在集中營附近的城鎮和村莊。
01:24
who watched看著 day after day
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日復一日看著
01:26
as the trains火車 went in filled填充 with people
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裝滿人的火車駛入,
01:29
and came來了 out empty.
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然後空空地離開。
01:31
But above以上 all, who would have to be wrong錯誤?
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除了這些人,還有誰是錯的?
01:36
The perpetrators肇事者.
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加害者。
01:38
The people who say, "We did it.
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他們承認「是我們做的、是我做的」。
01:41
I did it."
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也許他們會加上但書,
01:43
Now, maybe they add a caveat警告.
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01:45
They say, "I didn't have a choice選擇;
I was forced被迫 to do it."
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會說「我別無選擇、我是被逼的」。
01:50
But nonetheless儘管如此,, they say, "I did it."
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但至少他們承認「我有做」。
01:53
Think about it.
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想想看。
01:55
In not one war戰爭 crimes犯罪 trial審訊
since以來 the end結束 of World世界 War戰爭 IIII
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二戰結束之後每一場審判,
02:01
has a perpetrator肇事者 of any nationality國籍
ever said, "It didn't happen發生."
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沒有任何國籍的任何戰犯
說過「沒有大屠殺」。
02:09
Again, they may可能 have said, "I was forced被迫,"
but never that it didn't happen發生.
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頂多說「身不由己」,但絕不否認。
02:13
Having thought that through通過,
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想了一輪之後,
02:15
I decided決定 denial否認 was not
going to be on my agenda議程;
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我就決定不去碰這件事。
02:19
I had bigger things to worry擔心 about,
to write about, to research研究,
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我有其他要費心的工作和研究,
02:22
and I moved移動 on.
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所以我就不管了。
02:24
Fast-forward快進 a little over a decade,
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約略十多年後,
02:27
and two senior前輩 scholars學者 --
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兩位資深的學者,
02:29
two of the most prominent突出 historians歷史學家
of the Holocaust大屠殺 --
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兩位猶太大屠殺的歷史權威,
02:32
approached接近 me and said,
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來找我說,
「黛博拉,一起喝杯咖啡吧。
02:34
"Deborah黛博拉, let's have coffee咖啡.
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02:35
We have a research研究 idea理念
that we think is perfect完善 for you."
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我們有個研究構想,蠻適合你的。」
02:39
Intrigued出於好奇 and flattered受寵若驚
that they came來了 to me with an idea理念
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一方面好奇,一方面覺得榮幸,
他們會找上我做研究。
02:43
and thought me worthy值得 of it,
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02:44
I asked, "What is it?"
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我就問「什麼主題?」
02:47
And they said, "Holocaust大屠殺 denial否認."
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他們說「否認猶太大屠殺」。
02:51
And for the second第二 time, I laughed笑了.
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第二次聽到,我又笑了。
02:54
Holocaust大屠殺 denial否認?
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否認猶太大屠殺?
02:56
The Flat平面 Earth地球 folks鄉親?
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是相信「地平說」的人嗎?
02:58
The Elvis-is-alive貓王是活 people?
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還是相信貓王還活著的人?
03:00
I should study研究 them?
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要我研究他們?
03:03
And these two guys said,
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他們就說,
03:04
"Yeah, we're intrigued好奇.
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「對,我們很好奇。
03:07
What are they about?
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他們是什麼人?
03:08
What's their objective目的?
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目的是什麼?
03:10
How do they manage管理 to get people
to believe what they say?"
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他們為什麼要大費周章地
讓大眾相信他們?」
03:14
So thinking思維, if they thought
it was worthwhile合算,
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我就想,如果他們覺得有必要,
03:18
I would take a momentary瞬間 diversion導流 --
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我可以稍微研究「一下」,
03:21
maybe a year, maybe two,
three, maybe even four --
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也許一、兩年,或三、四年,
學術研究的「一下」很隨興。
03:24
in academic學術的 terms條款, that's momentary瞬間.
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03:26
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
03:28
We work very slowly慢慢地.
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一切慢慢來。
03:30
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
03:32
And I would look at them.
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我就去做研究。
03:33
So I did.
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總之就這樣。
03:35
I did my research研究, and I came來了 up
with a number of things,
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研究完成後,我得出幾點結論,
03:37
two of which哪一個 I'd like to share分享
with you today今天.
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今天特別要分享其中兩點。
03:40
One:
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第一:
03:41
deniers否認 are wolves in sheep's clothing服裝.
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否認者是披著羊皮的狼。
03:47
They are the same相同: Nazis納粹, neo-Nazis新納粹 --
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骨子裡一樣是納粹、新納粹,
加不加「新」沒什麼差。
03:50
you can decide決定 whether是否 you want
to put a "neo" there or not.
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03:54
But when I looked看著 at them,
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但你去看這些人,
03:57
I didn't see any SS-likeSS-樣 uniforms制服,
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他們不穿納粹親衛隊制服,
04:01
swastika-like卍狀 symbols符號 on the wall,
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牆上也沒有卍字符號,
04:05
Sieg西格 Heil埃爾 salutes禮炮 --
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不行納粹禮,
04:07
none沒有 of that.
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一個都沒有。
04:08
What I found發現 instead代替
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相反的,
04:11
were people parading遊行
as respectable可敬 academics學者.
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他們裝成德高望重的學者。
04:16
What did they have?
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還有呢?
04:18
They had an institute研究所.
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他們有一間學院,
04:19
An "Institute研究所 for Historical歷史的 Review評論."
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叫「歷史評論學院」。
04:24
They had a journal日誌 -- a slick華而不實的 journal日誌 --
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還有一本很像樣的期刊,
04:26
a "Journal日誌 of Historical歷史的 Review評論."
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「歷史評論期刊」。
04:30
One filled填充 with papers文件 --
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裡面都是論文,
04:33
footnote-laden腳註載貨 papers文件.
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充滿註腳的論文。
04:35
And they had a new name名稱.
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而且他們有個新名字。
04:38
Not neo-Nazis新納粹,
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不是新納粹,
04:40
not anti-Semites反猶主義 --
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不是反猶太,
04:43
revisionists修正主義.
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是「修正主義者」。
04:44
They said, "We are revisionists修正主義.
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他們自稱「修正主義者」。
04:47
We are out to do one thing:
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目標只有一個:
04:49
to revise修改 mistakes錯誤 in history歷史."
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要修正歷史的謬誤。
04:54
But all you had to do was go
one inch英寸 below下面 the surface表面,
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但如果你掀開他們的表面,
04:59
and what did you find there?
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會看到什麼?
05:01
The same相同 adulation阿諛 of Hitler希特勒,
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一樣的希特勒崇拜,
05:04
praise讚美 of the Third第三 Reich帝國,
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對第三帝國的讚揚,
05:06
anti-Semitism反猶太主義, racism種族主義, prejudice偏見.
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反猶太、種族主義、充滿偏見。
05:09
This is what intrigued好奇 me.
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我感興趣的是這個:
05:12
It was anti-Semitism反猶太主義, racism種族主義, prejudice偏見,
parading遊行 as rational合理的 discourse演講.
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反猶太、種族主義和偏見歧視,
披者理性論述的外衣。
05:20
The other thing I found發現 --
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另一個發現是,
05:22
many許多 of us have been taught to think
there are facts事實 and there are opinions意見 --
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有些話是事實,有些是意見,
05:26
after studying研究 deniers否認,
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但研究過這些人之後,
05:27
I think differently不同.
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我改觀了。
05:29
There are facts事實,
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有些話是事實、
05:31
there are opinions意見,
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有些話是意見、
05:32
and there are lies.
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還有些是謊言。
05:35
And what deniers否認 want to do
is take their lies,
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這些否認者想做的是把謊言,
05:40
dress連衣裙 them up as opinions意見 --
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包裝成意見,
05:42
maybe edgy前衛 opinions意見,
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好像很前衛的意見,
05:44
maybe sort分類 of out-of-the-box盒子外面 opinions意見 --
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有點跳脫框架的意見,
一旦這被當成意見,
05:46
but then if they're opinions意見,
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05:48
they should be part部分 of the conversation會話.
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就會被納入討論。
05:50
And then they encroach侵犯 on the facts事實.
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然後漸漸蓋過事實。
05:55
I published發表 my work --
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我把研究出版成一本書,
05:56
the book was published發表,
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05:58
"Denying否認 the Holocaust大屠殺: The Growing生長
Assault突擊 on Truth真相 and Memory記憶,"
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書名是《否認大屠殺》。
06:01
it came來了 out in many許多 different不同 countries國家,
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在很多國家發行,
06:03
including包含 here in Penguin企鵝 UK聯合王國,
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包括英國這邊是企鵝出版。
06:05
and I was doneDONE with those folks鄉親
and ready準備 to move移動 on.
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然後我就決定要做我的正事了。
06:10
Then came來了 the letter from Penguin企鵝 UK聯合王國.
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這時企鵝出版寄了封信給我。
06:14
And for the third第三 time, I laughed笑了 ...
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這是第三次我為此大笑......
06:19
mistakenly.
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但這次不好笑了。
06:20
I opened打開 the letter,
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我打開信,
06:22
and it informed通知 me that David大衛 Irving歐文
was bringing使 a libel誹謗 suit適合 against反對 me
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信裡說大衛艾文要告我誹謗,
在英國這邊告。
06:28
in the United聯合的 Kingdom王國
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06:30
for calling調用 him a Holocaust大屠殺 denier.
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理由是稱他「大屠殺否認者」。
06:33
David大衛 Irving歐文 suing起訴 me?
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大衛艾文要告我?
06:35
Who was David大衛 Irving歐文?
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他是何許人也?
他是一位歷史作家,
06:37
David大衛 Irving歐文 was a writer作家
of historical歷史的 works作品,
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06:39
most of them about World世界 War戰爭 IIII,
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內容多是關於二戰,
06:41
and virtually實質上 all of those works作品
took the position位置
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但他作品的立場全部都是,
06:45
that the Nazis納粹 were really not so bad,
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納粹其實沒那麼壞、
06:48
and the allies盟國 were really not so good.
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同盟國也沒那麼好。
06:51
And the Jews猶太人, whatever隨你 happened發生 to them,
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猶太人,無論遭遇什麼事,
06:53
they sort分類 of deserved應得 it.
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都是罪有應得。
06:56
He knew知道 the documents文件,
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他當然知道歷史紀錄,
06:57
he knew知道 the facts事實,
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他也知道事實,
06:59
but he somehow不知何故 twisted扭曲 them
to get this opinion意見.
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但他就是想扭曲真相。
07:03
He hadn't有沒有 always been a Holocaust大屠殺 denier,
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他不是一開始就否認大屠殺,
07:05
but in the late晚了 '80s,
145
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但在八零年代晚期,
07:07
he embraced擁抱 it with great vigor活力.
146
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他變成理論的擁護者。
07:11
The reason原因 I laughed笑了 also
was this was a man
147
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我為此大笑也是因為,
07:15
who not only was a Holocaust大屠殺 denier,
148
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他不只是大屠殺否認者,
07:17
but seemed似乎 quite相當 proud驕傲 of it.
149
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他還以此為榮。
07:19
Here was a man -- and I quote引用 --
150
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引用他的話,
07:20
who said, "I'm going to sink水槽
the battleship主力艦 Auschwitz奧斯威辛."
151
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他說「我要戳破奧斯威辛的謊言。」
07:25
Here was a man
152
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這個人,
07:26
who pointed to the number tattooed紋身
on a survivor's倖存者 arm and said,
153
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會指著倖存者手臂的編號問,
07:31
"How much money have you made製作
154
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「你刺一個號碼,
07:33
from having that number
tattooed紋身 on your arm?"
155
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可以撈多少錢?」
07:37
Here was a man who said,
156
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1908
他還說,
07:39
"More people died死亡 in Senator參議員 Kennedy's肯尼迪 car汽車
157
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「查帕奎迪克事件死的人,
07:42
at ChappaquiddickChappaquiddick
158
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比集中營毒氣室
07:43
than died死亡 in gas加油站 chambers at Auschwitz奧斯威辛."
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死的人還多。」
07:47
That's an American美國 reference參考,
but you can look it up.
160
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這是美國梗,意思是毒氣室沒死人。
07:51
This was not a man who seemed似乎
at all ashamed羞愧 or reticent沉默的
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這人絲毫不因為否認大屠殺,
感到羞愧或該低調。
07:54
about being存在 a Holocaust大屠殺 denier.
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07:57
Now, lots of my academic學術的
colleagues同事 counseled勸告 me --
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學術界很多朋友都跟我說,
08:00
"Eh, Deborah黛博拉, just ignore忽視 it."
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「不要理他就好了。」
08:02
When I explained解釋 you can't just
ignore忽視 a libel誹謗 suit適合,
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我就說誹謗案不能不理啊,
08:06
they said, "Who's誰是 going to
believe him anyway無論如何?"
166
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他們說「誰會相信他?」
08:09
But here was the problem問題:
167
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但問題就出在這:
08:11
British英國的 law put the onus責任,
put the burden負擔 of proof證明 on me
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英國法律上我有舉證責任,
08:17
to prove證明 the truth真相 of what I said,
169
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要證明我說的是真的。
08:19
in contrast對比 to as it would have
been in the United聯合的 States狀態
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這點跟美國法律不同,
08:22
and in many許多 other countries國家:
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或跟其他地方的法律比,
08:24
on him to prove證明 the falsehood謬誤.
172
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應該是他要證明我是錯的。
08:27
What did that mean?
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所以這意味什麼?
08:29
That meant意味著 if I didn't fight鬥爭,
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如果我不跟他打官司,
08:32
he would win贏得 by default默認.
175
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他就會直接勝訴。
08:35
And if he won韓元 by default默認,
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如果他直接勝訴,
08:37
he could then legitimately合理地 say,
177
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他就可以正當地說,
08:40
"My David大衛 Irving歐文 version of the Holocaust大屠殺
is a legitimate合法 version.
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「我的猶太大屠殺版本才是對的。
08:45
Deborah黛博拉 Lipstadt利普斯塔特 was found發現
to have libeled誹謗 me
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黛博拉利普斯塔特
08:47
when she called me a Holocaust大屠殺 denier.
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對我的誹謗已經敗訴,
08:49
IpsoIPSO facto事實上, I, David大衛 Irving歐文,
am not a Holocaust大屠殺 denier."
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就如之前我所說的,
我不是猶太大屠殺否認者。」
08:54
And what is that version?
182
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他的大屠殺版本是怎樣?
08:56
There was no plan計劃 to murder謀殺 the Jews猶太人,
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納粹沒有想要殺猶太人,
08:59
there were no gas加油站 chambers,
184
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集中營沒有毒氣室,
09:01
there were no mass shootings槍擊事件,
185
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1856
沒有大規模槍決。
09:03
Hitler希特勒 had nothing to do
with any suffering痛苦 that went on,
186
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希特勒和這些暴行沒有關係,
09:06
and the Jews猶太人 have made製作 this all up
187
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猶太人捏造這些情節,
09:10
to get money from Germany德國
188
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來撈德國的錢,
09:12
and to get a state,
189
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1707
去建立以色列,
09:14
and they've他們已經 doneDONE it with the aid援助
and abettanceabettance of the allies盟國 --
190
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3377
一切都是同盟國的陰謀,
09:17
they've他們已經 planted種植的 the documents文件
and planted種植的 the evidence證據.
191
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他們植入記錄又安插證據。
09:22
I couldn't不能 let that stand
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我不能接受這些說法,
09:24
and ever face面對 a survivor倖存者
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也無顏面對倖存者,
09:27
or a child兒童 of survivors倖存者.
194
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1975
或是倖存者後代。
09:29
I couldn't不能 let that stand
195
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我不能接受這些說法,
09:31
and consider考慮 myself
a responsible主管 historian歷史學家.
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如果我自認是負責的歷史學者。
09:37
So we fought戰鬥.
197
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1745
所以我們迎戰。
09:38
And for those of you
who haven't沒有 seen看到 "Denial否認,"
198
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2282
如果你還沒看《修正》那部電影,
09:41
spoiler擾流板 alert警報:
199
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1159
我要爆雷:
09:42
we won韓元.
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我們贏了。
09:43
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
09:45
(Applause掌聲)
202
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2567
(掌聲)
09:51
The judge法官 found發現 David大衛 Irving歐文
203
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法官判決大衛艾文是一個
09:56
to be a liar說謊者,
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騙徒、
09:59
a racist種族主義者,
205
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1163
種族主義者、
10:00
an anti-Semite反猶份子.
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反猶太主義者。
10:02
His view視圖 of history歷史 was tendentious傾向性,
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他的史觀是偏頗的,
10:04
he lied說謊, he distorted扭曲 --
208
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1926
他說謊、扭曲事實,
10:06
and most importantly重要的,
209
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2643
更重要的是,
10:09
he did it deliberately故意.
210
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他是故意的。
10:11
We showed顯示 a pattern模式,
in over 25 different不同 major重大的 instances實例.
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我們發現他 25 篇著作的模式。
這數量不小,
10:15
Not small things -- many許多 of us
in this audience聽眾 write books圖書,
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3110
在座很多人寫過書或正在寫書,
10:18
are writing寫作 books圖書;
213
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1185
我們會筆誤,所以才要刷二版,
10:19
we always make mistakes錯誤, that's why
we're glad高興 to have second第二 editions版本:
214
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3466
10:23
correct正確 the mistakes錯誤.
215
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1186
去訂正。
10:24
(Laughter笑聲)
216
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(笑聲)
10:26
But these always moved移動
in the same相同 direction方向:
217
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3136
但他都是朝同一種方向改:
10:30
blame the Jews猶太人,
218
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2211
詆毀猶太人、
10:32
exonerate開脫 the Nazis納粹.
219
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2175
幫納粹洗白。
10:35
But how did we win贏得?
220
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1584
但我們是怎麼贏的?
10:38
What we did is follow跟隨 his footnotes腳註
back to his sources來源.
221
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5380
我們從他的註解去追史料。
10:44
And what did we find?
222
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1783
結果我們發現什麼?
10:45
Not in most cases,
223
633997
1479
他大部分的著作,
10:47
and not in the preponderance優勢 of cases,
224
635500
1968
還有比較受歡迎的著作,
10:49
but in every一切 single instance where
he made製作 some reference參考 to the Holocaust大屠殺,
225
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4311
每一篇提到大屠殺的參考資料,
10:53
that his supposed應該 evidence證據 was distorted扭曲,
226
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4242
史料都被扭曲過,
10:58
half-truth半真理,
227
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1420
半真半假、
10:59
date-changed日期變更,
228
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1334
修改日期、
11:00
sequence-changed序列改變,
229
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2187
改變順序、
11:03
someone有人 put at a meeting會議 who wasn't there.
230
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某人出現在根本沒去的會議。
11:05
In other words,
he didn't have the evidence證據.
231
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2761
換句話說,他根本沒有證據。
11:08
His evidence證據 didn't prove證明 it.
232
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他的史料不能佐證。
11:10
We didn't prove證明 what happened發生.
233
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2659
我們不需要證明發生過的事。
11:13
We proved證實 that what he said happened發生 --
234
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2499
我們只要證明他說的,
11:16
and by extension延期, all deniers否認,
because he either quotes報價 them
235
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2860
甚至其他否認者說,因為他會引用,
11:19
or they get their arguments參數 from him --
236
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2471
或是否認者也會引用他的話,
11:21
is not true真正.
237
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1246
不是真的。
11:22
What they claim要求 --
238
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1189
他們的說法,
11:24
they don't have the evidence證據 to prove證明 it.
239
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2622
並沒有證據可以支持。
11:28
So why is my story故事
more than just the story故事
240
676609
4744
所以為什麼我的故事,
不只是一個荒謬、長達六年
刁鑽訴訟的故事,
11:33
of a quirky詭詐的, long,
six-year六年, difficult lawsuit訴訟,
241
681377
3807
11:37
an American美國 professor教授
being存在 dragged into a courtroom法庭
242
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4989
也是一個美國教授被一個
11:42
by a man that the court法庭
declared聲明 in its judgment判斷
243
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3044
法院認證過的新納粹詭辯者
拖去法院訴訟的故事?
11:45
was a neo-Nazi新納粹 polemicist辯論家?
244
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2250
11:47
What message信息 does it have?
245
695563
1783
這故事有什麼意義?
11:49
I think in the context上下文
of the question of truth真相,
246
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2973
我想在追尋真相的脈絡下,
11:52
it has a very significant重大 message信息.
247
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2462
這隱含非常重要的訊息。
11:55
Because today今天,
248
703283
1785
因為今日,
11:57
as we well know,
249
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1666
如各位所知,
11:58
truth真相 and facts事實 are under assault突擊.
250
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4116
事實和真相面臨挑戰。
12:03
Social社會 media媒體, for all
the gifts禮品 it has given特定 us,
251
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3252
社群網站的確惠大眾良多,
12:06
has also allowed允許 the difference區別
between之間 facts事實 -- established既定 facts事實 --
252
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5581
也讓真相,眾所皆知的真相
和謊言之間的界線,
12:12
and lies
253
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1757
12:14
to be flattened扁平.
254
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1398
變得模糊。
12:16
Third第三 of all:
255
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1510
第三:
12:18
extremism極端主義.
256
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1471
極端主義。
12:20
You may可能 not see Ku Klux三K Klan三K黨 robes長袍,
257
728987
3577
你不會看見三 K 黨的長袍,
12:24
you may可能 not see burning燃燒 crosses十字架,
258
732588
2071
不會看見燃燒的十字架,
12:26
you may可能 not even hear outright公然
white白色 supremacist至上主義 language語言.
259
734683
4319
不會聽見右派白人至上主義言論。
12:31
It may可能 go by names: "alt-rightALT-權,"
"National國民 Front面前" -- pick your names.
260
739026
4906
而是「另類右派」、「國民陣線」,
這類的名字。
12:35
But underneath, it's that same相同 extremism極端主義
that I found發現 in Holocaust大屠殺 denial否認
261
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5835
但骨子裡是一樣的極端主義,
像否認大屠殺一樣,
用合理性偽裝成的言論。
12:41
parading遊行 as rational合理的 discourse演講.
262
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3394
12:47
We live生活 in an age年齡
where truth真相 is on the defensive防禦性.
263
755134
5217
我們居住在一個
真相處於挨打的時代。
12:52
I'm reminded提醒 of a New Yorker紐約客 cartoon動畫片.
264
760375
2484
我想到《紐約客》的一則漫畫。
12:54
A quiz測驗 show顯示 recently最近 appeared出現
in "The New Yorker紐約客"
265
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2520
最近漫畫裡有一個益智節目,
12:57
where the host主辦 of the quiz測驗 show顯示
is saying to one of the contestants參賽者,
266
765427
3222
節目主持人對參賽者說,
13:00
"Yes, ma'am夫人, you had the right answer回答.
267
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2309
「小姐,雖然你答對了,
13:03
But your opponent對手 yelled大叫
more loudly高聲 than you did,
268
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2493
但對手喊比較大聲,
13:05
so he gets得到 the point."
269
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1525
所以他得分。」
13:08
What can we do?
270
776228
1507
所以我們該怎麼辦?
13:10
First of all,
271
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1377
首先,
13:11
we cannot不能 be beguiled誘騙
by rational合理的 appearances出場.
272
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5431
不要被理性的外衣騙了。
13:17
We've我們已經 got to look underneath,
273
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1769
我們要看破表相,
13:19
and we will find there the extremism極端主義.
274
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2801
揪出隱藏的極端主義。
13:22
Second第二 of all,
275
790991
1986
第二,
13:25
we must必須 understand理解
that truth真相 is not relative相對的.
276
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6081
要了解真相是絕對,不是相對的。
13:33
Number three,
277
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1464
第三,
13:34
we must必須 go on the offensive進攻,
278
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3689
我們要反守為攻,
13:38
not the defensive防禦性.
279
806338
1773
不能一味挨打。
13:40
When someone有人 makes品牌 an outrageous蠻橫的 claim要求,
280
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2607
當有人發表荒謬言論,
13:43
even though雖然 they may可能 hold保持
one of the highest最高 offices辦事處 in the land土地,
281
811307
3504
就算他們可能位居高位,
13:46
if not the world世界 --
282
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2011
也許全球知名,
13:48
we must必須 say to them,
283
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1510
我們也要質問他,
13:50
"Where's哪裡 the proof證明?
284
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1966
「證據在哪裡?」
13:52
Where's哪裡 the evidence證據?"
285
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2137
「你拿什麼證明?」
13:54
We must必須 hold保持 their feet to the fire.
286
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2927
不能輕易放過他們。
13:57
We must必須 not treat對待 it as if their lies
are the same相同 as the facts事實.
287
825506
4606
謊言跟真相絕對不能一視同仁。
14:03
And as I said earlier,
truth真相 is not relative相對的.
288
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3540
就像我說的,真相不是相對的。
14:06
Many許多 of us have grown長大的 up
in the world世界 of the academy學院
289
834959
2856
很多人都跟著學術、
14:09
and enlightened開明 liberal自由主義的 thought,
290
837839
1741
自由、啟發的思想長大,
14:11
where we're taught
everything is open打開 to debate辯論.
291
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2961
認為什麼事都可以討論。
14:15
But that's not the case案件.
292
843164
2014
但這種事例外。
14:17
There are certain某些 things that are true真正.
293
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3442
有些事就是真理。
14:21
There are indisputable facts事實 --
294
849192
3020
有些事實不容質疑,
14:24
objective目的 truths真理.
295
852236
1690
是客觀的真相。
14:26
Galileo伽利略 taught it to us centuries百年 ago.
296
854519
4817
伽利略幾世紀前就說了。
14:31
Even after being存在 forced被迫
to recant宣布放棄 by the Vatican教廷
297
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4667
就算教廷逼他認錯,
14:36
that the Earth地球 moved移動 around the Sun太陽,
298
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2573
說地球不是繞著太陽轉。
他步出宗教法庭,
14:38
he came來了 out,
299
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1154
記載說他講了什麼?
14:39
and what is he reported報導 to have said?
300
867826
2310
14:42
"And yet然而, it still moves移動."
301
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3822
「可是,地球依然繞著太陽轉。」
14:47
The Earth地球 is not flat平面.
302
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2840
地球不是平的。
14:50
The climate氣候 is changing改變.
303
878206
2290
氣候正在變遷。
14:53
Elvis貓王 is not alive.
304
881387
2268
貓王已經死了。
14:55
(Laughter笑聲)
305
883679
1535
(笑聲)
14:57
(Applause掌聲)
306
885238
2316
(掌聲)
14:59
And most importantly重要的,
307
887578
2301
更重要的是,
15:01
truth真相 and fact事實 are under assault突擊.
308
889903
4649
真相和事實備受挑戰。
15:07
The job工作 ahead of us,
309
895289
1610
我們眼前的工作、
15:08
the task任務 ahead of us,
310
896923
1203
眼前的任務、
15:10
the challenge挑戰 ahead of us
311
898150
1594
眼前的挑戰,
15:11
is great.
312
899768
1234
太大了。
15:13
The time to fight鬥爭 is short.
313
901747
2637
沒時間浪費。
15:17
We must必須 act法案 now.
314
905241
2843
我們要馬上行動。
15:20
Later後來 will be too late晚了.
315
908929
3245
再遲就來不及了。
15:24
Thank you very much.
316
912198
1262
謝謝。
15:25
(Applause掌聲)
317
913484
4046
(掌聲)
Translated by Aaron Shoo
Reviewed by Yi-Fan Yu

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Deborah Lipstadt - Historian
Deborah Lipstadt's research focuses on the development of Holocaust denial and how to fight for the truth in an era marked by "alternative facts."

Why you should listen

Dr. Deborah E. Lipstadt, Dorot professor of Holocaust Studies at Emory University in Atlanta, was sued for libel in 1996 by David Irving for having called him a Holocaust denier. After a ten-week trial in London in 2000, in an overwhelming victory for Lipstadt, the judge found Irving to be a "neo-Nazi polemicist" who "perverts" history and engages in "racist" and "anti-Semitic" discourse. The Daily Telegraph (London) described the trial as having "done for the new century what the Nuremberg tribunals or the Eichmann trial did for earlier generations." The Times (London) described it as "history has had its day in court and scored a crushing victory." According to the New York Times, the trial "put an end to the pretense that Mr. Irving is anything but a self-promoting apologist for Hitler."

The movie Denial, starring Rachel Weisz and Tom Wilkenson with a screenplay by David Hare, tells the story of this legal battle.  It is based on Lipstadt's book, History on Trial: My Day in Court with a Holocaust Denier (Harper Collins, 2006), and recently reissued as Denial (Harper Collins, 2016). The film was nominated for a BAFTA as one of the best British films of the year.

Lipstadt has written most recently Holocaust: An American Understanding (Rutgers, 2016), which explores how America has understood and interpreted the Holocaust since 1945.

Her previous book, The Eichmann Trial, (Schocken/Nextbook, 2011) published in commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the Eichmann trial, was called by Publisher's Weekly, "a penetrating and authoritative dissection of a landmark case and its after effects." The New York Times Book Review described Lipstadt as having "done a great service by … recovering the event as a gripping legal drama, as well as a hinge moment in Israel's history and in the world's delayed awakening to the magnitude of the Holocaust."

She has also published Beyond Belief: The American Press And The Coming Of The Holocaust, 1933-1945 (Free Press, 1986), which surveys what the American press wrote about the persecution of the Jews in the years 1933-1945.  She is currently writing a book, The Antisemitic Delusion: Letters to a Concerned Student which will be published in 2018.

At Emory, Lipstadt directs the website known as HDOT, Holocaust Denial on Trial, which contains a complete archive of the proceedings of Irving v. Penguin UK and Deborah Lipstadt. It also provides answers to frequent claims made by deniers. Lipstadt has won the Emery Williams Teaching Award, and she was selected for the award by alumni as the teacher who had most influenced them.

Lipstadt was a historical consultant to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, helping design the section of the Museum dedicated to the American Response to the Holocaust. She has held a Presidential appointment to the United States Holocaust Memorial Council (from Presidents Clinton and Obama) and was asked by President George W. Bush to represent the White House at the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.

Lipstadt has a BA from the City College of New York and an MA and PhD from Brandeis University.

More profile about the speaker
Deborah Lipstadt | Speaker | TED.com

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