TED2013
Jared Diamond: How societies can grow old better
贾雷德·戴蒙德: 让现代社会中的老人生活的更好
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在最新的延长人类寿命的努力背后，隐藏着一个讽刺的事实：在一个以青年人为导向的社会里做一个老人并不是件愉快的事情。老人会变得孤立，缺乏有意义的工作以及贫困。在这个特别的演讲里，贾雷德·戴蒙德着眼于许多不同的社会如何对待自己的长辈—— 一些很好，一些很糟—— 并且建议大家要从经验中学习。
Jared Diamond - Civilization scholar
Jared Diamond investigates why cultures prosper or decline -- and what we can learn by taking a broad look across many kinds of societies. Full bio
Jared Diamond investigates why cultures prosper or decline -- and what we can learn by taking a broad look across many kinds of societies. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
To give me an idea of how many of you here
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为了让我知道这里有多少人
00:14
may find what I'm about to tell you
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待会儿会觉得我告诉你的事情
00:17
of practical value,
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有实用价值，
00:18
let me ask you please to raise your hands:
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请符合条件的人把手举起来:
00:21
Who here is either over 65 years old
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这里有谁已经超过65岁
00:24
or hopes to live past age 65
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或者想要活到65岁以后
00:28
or has parents or grandparents who did live
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或者有父母、祖父母的岁数
00:31
or have lived past 65,
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达到或超过65岁，
00:33
raise your hands please. (Laughter)
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请举手。（笑声）
00:36
Okay. You are the people to whom my talk
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好。你们就是会发现我的演讲
00:38
will be of practical value. (Laughter)
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有用的人。（笑声）
00:40
The rest of you
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其他人，
00:42
won't find my talk personally relevant,
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不会觉得我的演讲和你有切身的关系，
00:44
but I think that you will still find the subject
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但我觉得你仍会发现这个主题
00:46
fascinating.
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非常有趣。
00:47
I'm going to talk about growing older
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我要谈一谈在传统的社会里
00:49
in traditional societies.
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慢慢变老是什么样子。
00:51
This subject constitutes just one chapter
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这一主题是我新书的
00:54
of my latest book, which compares
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一章，这本书在比较
00:57
traditional, small, tribal societies
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传统上基于部落的小社会，
01:00
with our large, modern societies,
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与我们现在的庞大社会之间，
01:02
with respect to many topics
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在许多事情上都有很大不同，
01:04
such as bringing up children,
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例如后代的培养，
01:06
growing older, health, dealing with danger,
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老年问题，健康问题、 危机处理，
01:10
settling disputes, religion
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领土和宗教争端等，
01:12
and speaking more than one language.
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现在社会很多人都能说一种以上语言。
01:15
Those tribal societies, which constituted
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这中小部落社会组织形式
01:18
all human societies for most of human history,
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是人类漫长历史上最主要的社会形式，
01:21
are far more diverse than are our modern,
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远比我们现代的，近代的大社会
01:24
recent, big societies.
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更多样化。
01:26
All big societies that have governments,
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所有具有政府的，
01:28
and where most people are strangers to each other,
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且大多数人互不认识的大社会，
01:31
are inevitably similar to each other
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都不可避免地相互类似
01:33
and different from tribal societies.
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并且与部落社会不同。
01:36
Tribes constitute thousands of natural experiments
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部落的形成是大自然实验的结果
01:39
in how to run a human society.
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成千上万次的实验形成了部落的多样性。
01:42
They constitute experiments from which we ourselves
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在大自然的实验中， 部落形成的过程中
01:45
may be able to learn.
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我们可以学到很多。
01:47
Tribal societies shouldn't be scorned
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(我们）不应该认为部落社会
01:49
as primitive and miserable,
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原始而悲惨的，并因此看不起它们
01:51
but also they shouldn't be romanticized
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但也不应该觉得它们是
01:53
as happy and peaceful.
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幸福与和平的，从而把其浪漫化。
01:55
When we learn of tribal practices,
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当我们去了解部落的做法时，
01:58
some of them will horrify us,
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有些做法会吓坏我们，
01:59
but there are other tribal practices which,
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但也有其他部落的做法，
02:02
when we hear about them,
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当我们听说时，
02:03
we may admire and envy
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我们可能会觉得佩服和羡慕
02:05
and wonder whether we could adopt those practices
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并思考，是否我们自己，
02:07
ourselves.
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也可以采取这些做法。
02:10
Most old people in the U.S. end up living
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生活在美国的大多数老人，最终
02:13
separately from their children
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都与子女分开生活
02:15
and from most of their friends
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他们年轻时就认识的朋友们
02:17
of their earlier years,
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也会相互分开，
02:18
and often they live in separate
retirements homes for the elderly,
retirements homes for the elderly,
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他们很可能生活在单独为老人设立的养老院里，
02:22
whereas in traditional societies,
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而在传统社会中，
02:24
older people instead live out their lives
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年纪大的人和他们的子女，
02:27
among their children, their other relatives,
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他们的其他亲戚，
02:29
and their lifelong friends.
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以及他们认识了一辈子的朋友生活在一起。
02:32
Nevertheless, the treatment of the elderly
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虽然，老年人的待遇
02:34
varies enormously among traditional societies,
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在不同的传统社会间差别极大，
02:37
from much worse to much better
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有比我们的现代社会糟糕很多的，
02:39
than in our modern societies.
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也有比我们的现代社会好很多的。
02:42
At the worst extreme, many traditional societies
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在最坏的极端，许多传统社会
02:45
get rid of their elderly
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通过以下四种一种比一种残忍的方式
02:47
in one of four increasingly direct ways:
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来处理部落中的老年人：
02:50
by neglecting their elderly
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第一种做法是忽略他们
02:52
and not feeding or cleaning them until they die,
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不给他们吃的， 不打理他们，任其自生自灭，
02:56
or by abandoning them when the group moves,
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第二种做法是在整个群体迁移时，抛弃他们，
02:59
or by encouraging older people to commit suicide,
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第三种做法是迫使老人自杀，
03:02
or by killing older people.
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最后， 最残忍的， 杀死老人。
03:05
In which tribal societies do children
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到底是什么样的部落社会，
03:07
abandon or kill their parents?
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子女会抛弃或杀死他们的父母？
03:10
It happens mainly under two conditions.
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主要在以下两个环境下会发生。
03:13
One is in nomadic, hunter-gather societies
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一个情况是游牧部落，打猎和采摘为食的社会
03:16
that often shift camp
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这些部落常常需要迁移，
03:18
and that are physically incapable
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他们没有能力
03:20
of transporting old people who can't walk
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带着无法自己迁移的老人，
03:23
when the able-bodied younger people already
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四肢健全的年轻人
03:25
have to carry their young children
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要携带年幼的子女
03:27
and all their physical possessions.
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和其所有的物质财产。
03:30
The other condition is in societies
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另一种是生活在极端恶劣
03:32
living in marginal or fluctuating environments,
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或极端不稳定环境中的部落，
03:36
such as the Arctic or deserts,
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比如北极或沙漠，
03:38
where there are periodic food shortages,
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这些地方有周期性的粮食短缺，
03:41
and occasionally there just isn't enough food
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并且时不时的会有饥荒，
03:43
to keep everyone alive.
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粮食无法满足所有人。
03:45
Whatever food is available has to be reserved
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这种情况下， 食物必须
03:47
for able-bodied adults and for children.
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为健全的成年人和儿童保留。
03:52
To us Americans, it sounds horrible
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对我们美国人来说，这听起来非常可怕，
03:55
to think of abandoning or killing
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想想抛弃或杀死
03:57
your own sick wife or husband
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你自己生病的妻子或丈夫
03:59
or elderly mother or father,
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或年迈的母亲或父亲，
04:01
but what could those traditional societies
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但是，那些传统社会还可能
04:05
do differently?
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怎么样呢？
04:07
They face a cruel situation of no choice.
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他们面对别无选择的残酷态势。
04:10
Their old people had to do it to their own parents,
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他们的老人都不得不对自己的父母做这样的事情，
04:13
and the old people know
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并且老人们知道
04:15
what now is going to happen to them.
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现在什么会发生在他们身上。
04:18
At the opposite extreme
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在对待老人的另一个极端
04:20
in treatment of the elderly, the happy extreme,
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这个快乐的极端，
04:22
are the New Guinea farming societies
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是在新几内亚的农耕社会
04:24
where I've been doing my fieldwork
for the past 50 years,
for the past 50 years,
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——过去 50 多年来，我在那里做野外调查——
04:27
and most other sedentary traditional societies
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还有大多数其他在世界各地
04:31
around the world.
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定居的传统社会。
04:33
In those societies, older people are cared for.
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在这些社会中，老年人受到照顾。
04:36
They are fed. They remain valuable.
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他们被（子女）赡养。他们仍有价值。
04:38
And they continue to live in the same hut
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而且他们继续住在同一屋檐下，
04:40
or else in a nearby hut near their children,
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或是住在靠近他们子女，或其他亲属和好朋友住处
04:43
relatives and lifelong friends.
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附近的小屋。
04:47
There are two main sets of reasons for this variation
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在不同的社会中，有这样不同的
04:49
among societies in their treatment
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对待老人的态度和方式，
04:52
of old people.
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主要有两组原因。
04:53
The variation depends especially
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这种不同尤其取决于
04:55
on the usefulness of old people
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老人依然能够体现自己的价值
04:57
and on the society's values.
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以及当地社会的价值观。
05:00
First, as regards usefulness,
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第一点是关于老人的价值，
05:02
older people continue to perform useful services.
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老人可继续提供有用的服务。
05:05
One use of older people in traditional societies
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在传统社会中老人的一个用处
05:08
is that they often are still effective
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是他们常常仍可以
05:10
at producing food.
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生产食物。
05:12
Another traditional usefulness of older people
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另一种老年人的传统用处，
05:15
is that they are capable of babysitting
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是他们有能力帮忙照看
05:18
their grandchildren,
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他们的孙辈，
05:20
thereby freeing up their own adult children,
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从而让其成年子女，
05:23
the parents of those grandchildren,
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那些孙子们的父母，
05:24
to go hunting and gathering
food for the grandchildren.
food for the grandchildren.
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去狩猎和采集食物给孙子们。
05:28
Still another traditional value of older people
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还有另一个老年人的传统价值
05:30
is in making tools, weapons, baskets,
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是在于制作工具、 武器、 篮子、
05:33
pots and textiles.
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锅碗和纺织品。
05:35
In fact, they're usually the people who are best at it.
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事实上，他们通常是擅长的人。
05:38
Older people usually are the leaders
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老人通常是传统社会
05:41
of traditional societies,
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的领导人，
05:43
and the people most knowledgeable about politics,
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也是在政治、医学、 宗教、
05:46
medicine, religion, songs and dances.
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歌曲和舞蹈方面最有知识的人。
05:50
Finally, older people in traditional societies
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最后，在传统社会中的老年人
05:53
have a huge significance that would never occur
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具有一个巨大的，且在我们的现代文明社会中
05:56
to us in our modern, literate societies,
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永远不会想到的重要性，
06:00
where our sources of information are books
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因为我们的信息来源是书
06:03
and the Internet.
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和互联网。
06:04
In contrast, in traditional societies without writing,
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相比之下，在没有文字书写的传统社会，
06:08
older people are the repositories of information.
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老人是信息的存储库。
06:11
It's their knowledge that spells the difference
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他们的知识是其整个社会
06:14
between survival and death for their whole society
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在罕见事件引起的危机时
06:18
in a time of crisis caused by rare events
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存亡的关键
06:21
for which only the oldest people alive
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因为唯一活着的，最年长的老人
06:23
have had experience.
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才会有经验。
06:26
Those, then, are the ways in which older people
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那些就是老人
06:28
are useful in traditional societies.
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在传统社会中有用的地方。
06:31
Their usefulness varies and contributes
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他们的用处会不同，并决定了
06:34
to variation in the society's treatment
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社会对待老人
06:36
of the elderly.
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态度的不同。
06:38
The other set of reasons for variation
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另一组（不同社会）对待老人
06:40
in the treatment of the elderly is
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有差异的原因是
06:42
the society's cultural values.
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社会的文化价值观。
06:45
For example, there's particular emphasis
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例如，对在东亚地区，
06:47
on respect for the elderly in East Asia,
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（其文化）特别强调对老人的尊重，
06:50
associated with Confucius' doctrine
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这与孔子的孝道學說有关
06:53
of filial piety, which means obedience,
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也即是服从，
06:57
respect and support for elderly parents.
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尊重并支持年迈的父母。
07:01
Cultural values that emphasize
respect for older people
respect for older people
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强调尊重老年人的文化价值观
07:05
contrast with the low status of the elderly
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与在美国，老人的地位低微
07:08
in the U.S.
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形成了鲜明对比。
07:10
Older Americans are at a big disadvantage
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美国老年人在工作申请中
07:12
in job applications.
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处于很大的劣势。
07:14
They're at a big disadvantage in hospitals.
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他们在医院也处于很大的劣势。
07:17
Our hospitals have an explicit policy
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我们的医院有明确的政策
07:20
called age-based allocation of healthcare resources.
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称为“基于年龄分配医疗资源”。
07:25
That sinister expression means that
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这种政策的表述听起来充满恶意：
07:27
if hospital resources are limited,
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如果医院资源是有限的，
07:30
for example if only one donor heart
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例如，如果只有一个捐助者的心脏
07:32
becomes available for transplant,
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可供移植，
07:34
or if a surgeon has time to operate
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或者，如果一个外科医生
07:36
on only a certain number of patients,
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在一定时间中只能为少数几个患者做手术，
07:38
American hospitals have an explicit policy
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美国的医院有明确的政策，
07:41
of giving preference to younger patients
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（这些资源）要优先给年轻的患者
07:44
over older patients
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而不是老年患者，
07:45
on the grounds that younger patients are considered
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理由是年轻患者被认为
07:48
more valuable to society
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对社会更有价值
07:50
because they have more years of life ahead of them,
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因为他们还有更多年的生活在等待他们，
07:53
even though the younger patients have fewer years
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即使较年轻的患者有较少的
07:56
of valuable life experience behind them.
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宝贵生活经验。
08:00
There are several reasons for this low status
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美国的老人地位如此低
08:02
of the elderly in the U.S.
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有几个原因。
08:04
One is our Protestant work ethic
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一是我们新教的工作伦理
08:07
which places high value on work,
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这个伦理给予“工作”很大的价值，
08:10
so older people who are no longer working
185
478138
2223
所以不再能工作的老年人
08:12
aren't respected.
186
480361
1983
不被尊重。
08:14
Another reason is our American emphasis
187
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2857
另一个原因是我们美国人强调
08:17
on the virtues of self-reliance and independence,
188
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3383
自主和独立的美德
08:20
so we instinctively look down on older people
189
488584
3069
所以我们本能地看不起
08:23
who are no longer self-reliant and independent.
190
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3597
不再自力更生而独立的老年人。
08:27
Still a third reason is our American cult of youth,
191
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4101
第三个原因是我们美国式的，对年轻的崇拜，
08:31
which shows up even in our advertisements.
192
499351
2808
甚至在我们的广告中就显示了这点。
08:34
Ads for Coca-Cola and beer always depict
193
502159
3264
可口可乐和啤酒的广告总是描绘
08:37
smiling young people,
194
505423
1555
微笑着的年轻人，
08:38
even though old as well as young people
195
506978
1970
即使老人象年轻人一样
08:40
buy and drink Coca-Cola and beer.
196
508948
2322
会去买可口可乐和啤酒。
08:43
Just think, what's the last time you saw
197
511270
2003
想一想，你最后一次看到
08:45
a Coke or beer ad depicting smiling people
198
513273
2677
可乐或者啤酒的广告描绘微笑着的
08:47
85 years old? Never.
199
515950
2949
85 岁老人是什么时候？从来没有。
08:50
Instead, the only American ads
200
518899
1806
相反，唯一以白发老人
08:52
featuring white-haired old people
201
520705
2006
为主角的美国广告
08:54
are ads for retirement homes and pension planning.
202
522711
3865
是眼泪院和养老计划的广告。
08:58
Well, what has changed in the status
203
526576
2050
今天老人的地位
09:00
of the elderly today
204
528626
1983
与他们在传统社会中的地位
09:02
compared to their status in traditional societies?
205
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3389
相比起来有什么变化？
09:05
There have been a few changes for the better
206
533998
1870
有一些好的变化
09:07
and more changes for the worse.
207
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2205
更多的方面变得更糟糕了。
09:10
Big changes for the better
208
538073
1601
好的变化中，大的方面
09:11
include the fact that today we enjoy
209
539674
2151
包括今天我们享受
09:13
much longer lives,
210
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1984
更长的生命这一事实，
09:15
much better health in our old age,
211
543809
2294
我们比过去的老年人更健康，
09:18
and much better recreational opportunities.
212
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3638
和有更好地娱乐的机会。
09:21
Another change for the better is that we now have
213
549741
2270
另一个更好的变化是，我们现在有
09:24
specialized retirement facilities
214
552011
2840
专门的退休设施
09:26
and programs to take care of old people.
215
554851
3351
和政策来照顾老人们。
09:30
Changes for the worse begin with the cruel reality
216
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2868
更糟的变化开始于
09:33
that we now have
217
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1689
我们现在，比以往任何时候
09:34
more old people and fewer young people
218
562759
2574
都有更多的老人和更少的年轻人
09:37
than at any time in the past.
219
565333
2684
这一残酷现实。
09:40
That means that all those old people
220
568017
1751
这意味着，那些老人
09:41
are more of a burden on the few young people,
221
569768
2425
对这些较少的年轻来说是个负担，
09:44
and that each old person has less individual value.
222
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4486
并且每个老人的个体价值也就更少。
09:48
Another big change for the worse
in the status of the elderly
in the status of the elderly
223
576679
3184
另一个老年人地位恶化的大变化是
09:51
is the breaking of social ties with age,
224
579863
2677
随着年龄的增长，社会纽带的断裂，
09:54
because older people, their children,
225
582540
1844
因为老人，他们的孩子，
09:56
and their friends,
226
584384
1316
和他们的朋友，
09:57
all move and scatter independently of each other
227
585700
2850
在他们的生命过程中多次搬家
10:00
many times during their lives.
228
588550
2254
并彼此独立地四散各处。
10:02
We Americans move on the average
229
590804
1813
我们美国人平均
10:04
every five years.
230
592617
1953
每五年就搬家一次。
10:06
Hence our older people are likely
231
594570
2031
因此我们的老人很有可能
10:08
to end up living distant from their children
232
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2307
最终生活在远离他们的孩子
10:10
and the friends of their youth.
233
598908
2803
和他们青年时期朋友的地方。
10:13
Yet another change for the worse
in the status of the elderly
in the status of the elderly
234
601711
3162
另一个老年人地位恶化的变化是
10:16
is formal retirement from the workforce,
235
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3730
从劳动力中正式退休，
10:20
carrying with it a loss of work friendships
236
608603
2750
同时失去在工作中建立的友谊
10:23
and a loss of the self-esteem associated with work.
237
611353
4140
以及从工作而来的自尊。
10:27
Perhaps the biggest change for the worse
238
615493
2485
或许，最大的（老人地位）恶化的改变是
10:29
is that our elderly are objectively
239
617978
2873
我们的老人都客观地
10:32
less useful than in traditional societies.
240
620851
3162
相比在传统社会中没那么有用了。
10:36
Widespread literacy means that they are no longer
241
624013
2963
文化普及意味着他们不再
10:38
useful as repositories of knowledge.
242
626976
2631
是有用的知识宝库。
10:41
When we want some information,
243
629607
1943
当我们想要某些信息时，
10:43
we look it up in a book or we Google it
244
631550
2261
我们从书里面查，或是上网搜索
10:45
instead of finding some old person to ask.
245
633811
3470
而不是询问老人。
10:49
The slow pace of technological change
246
637281
2087
在传统社会中，
10:51
in traditional societies
247
639368
1822
技术变革的缓慢速度
10:53
means that what someone learns there as a child
248
641190
2850
意味着在孩童时代学习的东西
10:56
is still useful when that person is old,
249
644040
2659
在老年时仍然有用
10:58
but the rapid pace of technological change today
250
646699
3603
而今天技术的快速改变
11:02
means that what we learn as children
251
650302
2067
意味着我们在孩童时代学习的东西
11:04
is no longer useful 60 years later.
252
652369
2890
60 年后已经不再有用。
11:07
And conversely, we older people are not fluent
253
655259
2379
反过来，我们老人对于
11:09
in the technologies essential for surviving
254
657638
3034
现代社会中生存必需的技术
11:12
in modern society.
255
660672
1971
并不擅长。
11:14
For example, as a 15-year-old,
256
662643
2173
例如，做为 一个15 岁的孩子，
11:16
I was considered outstandingly
good at multiplying numbers
good at multiplying numbers
257
664816
3590
别人觉得我非常擅长乘法
11:20
because I had memorized the multiplication tables
258
668406
3195
因为我记得乘法表，
11:23
and I know how to use logarithms
259
671601
2145
知道如何使用对数，
11:25
and I'm quick at manipulating a slide rule.
260
673746
2863
并且可以快速地操作计算尺。
11:28
Today, though, those skills are utterly useless
261
676609
3086
然而，今天，这些技能基本完全无用
11:31
because any idiot
262
679695
2371
因为任何一个白痴
11:34
can now multiply eight-digit numbers
263
682066
2358
也可以将八位数的数字
11:36
accurately and instantly with a pocket calculator.
264
684424
3187
准确快速地用一个袖珍计算器相乘。
11:39
Conversely, I at age 75
265
687611
2170
相反地，我在75 岁时
11:41
am incompetent at skills
266
689781
2664
无法驾驭日常生活中
11:44
essential for everyday life.
267
692445
2454
所必须的技能。
11:46
My family's first TV set in 1948
268
694899
2784
我家1948 年的第一台电视
11:49
had only three knobs that I quickly mastered:
269
697683
3053
只有三个旋钮，我很快就掌握了要如何使用：
11:52
an on-off switch, a volume knob,
270
700736
2750
一个电源开关，一个音量旋钮
11:55
and a channel selector knob.
271
703486
2221
和一个频道选择钮。
11:57
Today, just to watch a program
272
705707
2088
今天，为了要在我自家的
11:59
on the TV set in my own house,
273
707795
2456
电视上看个节目，
12:02
I have to operate a 41-button TV remote
274
710251
3717
我必须要操作一个 41钮的电视遥控器，
12:05
that utterly defeats me.
275
713968
1982
这完全难倒了我。
12:07
I have to telephone my 25-year-old sons
276
715950
3014
我只好打电话给我 25 岁的儿子们
12:10
and ask them to talk me through it
277
718964
2197
让他们在电话里一步一步地告诉我
12:13
while I try to push those wretched 41 buttons.
278
721161
4997
怎么操作那些可悲的 41个按钮。
12:18
What can we do to improve the lives of the elderly
279
726158
2647
我们可以做些什么来改善在美国的老人的生活
12:20
in the U.S., and to make better use of their value?
280
728805
3454
和更好地利用他们的价值吗？
12:24
That's a huge problem.
281
732259
1774
这是一个巨大的问题。
12:26
In my remaining four minutes today,
282
734033
2471
在我今天剩下的四分钟内，
12:28
I can offer just a few suggestions.
283
736504
2577
我仅能提供几个建议。
12:31
One value of older people is that they are
284
739081
1922
老人的一个价值是他们
12:33
increasingly useful as grandparents
285
741003
3444
作为祖父母，
12:36
for offering high-quality childcare
286
744447
2507
在为其孙辈提供高品质的儿童照顾上
12:38
to their grandchildren, if they choose to do it,
287
746954
2653
越来越有用，如果他们选择做这件事，
12:41
as more young women enter the workforce
288
749607
2849
因为越来越多的年轻妇女参与劳动
12:44
and as fewer young parents of either gender
289
752456
2334
以及越来越少的年轻父母中任一一方
12:46
stay home as full-time caretakers of their children.
290
754790
3660
留在家里全职照顾他们的孩子。
12:50
Compared to the usual alternatives
291
758450
2036
相比于常见的
12:52
of paid babysitters and day care centers,
292
760486
3598
带薪保姆和托儿所这些选择，
12:56
grandparents offer superior, motivated,
293
764084
3127
祖父母提供更优越，更有动力的，
12:59
experienced child care.
294
767211
2688
经验丰富的儿童照顾。
13:01
They've already gained experience
from raising their own children.
from raising their own children.
295
769899
3266
他们已经从养育自己的孩子中取得了经验。
13:05
They usually love their grandchildren,
296
773165
2344
他们通常爱他们的孙辈，
13:07
and are eager to spend time with them.
297
775509
2665
并渴望能花时间和他们在一起。
13:10
Unlike other caregivers,
298
778174
1901
与其他护理人员不同，
13:12
grandparents don't quit their job
299
780075
2897
爷爷奶奶不会因为
13:14
because they found another job with higher pay
300
782972
2436
找到了另一份收入更高的
13:17
looking after another baby.
301
785408
3513
照顾另一个孩子的工作而辞职。
13:20
A second value of older people is paradoxically
302
788921
2404
老年人的第二个价值，矛盾的是
13:23
related to their loss of value
303
791325
2661
与其因世界状况和技术的变化
13:25
as a result of changing world
conditions and technology.
conditions and technology.
304
793986
4073
造成的价值损失有关。
13:30
At the same time, older people have gained
305
798059
2036
与此同时，老人们获得了
13:32
in value today precisely because
306
800095
2311
今天的价值恰恰是因为
13:34
of their unique experience of living conditions
307
802406
3109
他们在那些如今已经罕见的生活状况上
13:37
that have now become rare
308
805515
1719
的独特经验
13:39
because of rapid change, but that could come back.
309
807234
3310
这些情况由于快速的变化而变得罕见，但有可能会再出现。
13:42
For example, only Americans now in their 70s
310
810544
2954
例如，只有70多岁或更老的美国人
13:45
or older today can remember
311
813498
2260
今天会记得
13:47
the experience of living through a great depression,
312
815758
3328
在大萧条中存活的经验，
13:51
the experience of living through a world war,
313
819086
2638
在世界大战中存活的经验，
13:53
and agonizing whether or not
314
821724
2546
和烦恼到底是
13:56
dropping atomic bombs would be more horrible
315
824270
3037
扔原子炸弹的后果比较严重
13:59
than the likely consequences
of not dropping atomic bombs.
of not dropping atomic bombs.
316
827307
4113
还是不扔原子弹可能出现的后果比较严重。
14:03
Most of our current voters and politicians
317
831420
2276
大多数我们当前的选民和政治家
14:05
have no personal experience of any of those things,
318
833696
2732
都没有亲身经历过这些事情，
14:08
but millions of older Americans do.
319
836428
2695
但数以百万计的美国老年人经历过。
14:11
Unfortunately, all of those terrible situations
320
839123
2651
不幸的是，所有这些可怕的情况
14:13
could come back.
321
841774
1387
都有可能再发生。
14:15
Even if they don't come back,
322
843161
1306
即使它们不再发生，
14:16
we have to be able to plan for them
323
844467
2192
我们必须能够为此做好准备
14:18
on the basis of the experience of what they were like.
324
846659
2811
基于经验所知的状况。
14:21
Older people have that experience.
325
849470
1834
老人们有这个经验。
14:23
Younger people don't.
326
851304
2053
但年轻人没有。
14:25
The remaining value of older people
327
853357
1520
我将要提到的老人的其他价值
14:26
that I'll mention involves recognizing that
328
854877
2443
是关于（我们需要）认识到
14:29
while there are many things that older people
329
857320
2580
虽然有很多事情，老人
14:31
can no longer do,
330
859900
1606
不能再做了，
14:33
there are other things that they can do
331
861506
1489
但也有其他的事情，他们仍可以做
14:34
better than younger people.
332
862995
2095
得比年轻人更好。
14:37
A challenge for society is
to make use of those things
to make use of those things
333
865090
2896
社会面临的一个挑战就是要利用那些
14:39
that older people are better at doing.
334
867986
2472
老人能做得更好事情。
14:42
Some abilities, of course, decrease with age.
335
870458
3249
当然，一些能力会随着年龄的增长而变差。
14:45
Those include abilities at tasks
336
873707
2638
这些包括完成
14:48
requiring physical strength and stamina,
337
876345
3571
需要体力和耐力，
14:51
ambition, and the power of novel reasoning
338
879916
3124
野心及在特定情况下有创意的推理力
14:55
in a circumscribed situation,
339
883040
2425
的这类任务的能力，
14:57
such as figuring out the structure of DNA,
340
885465
2588
如想出DNA的结构，
15:00
best left to scientists under the age of 30.
341
888053
3901
最好还是留给30岁以下的科学家去做。
15:03
Conversely, valuable attributes
342
891954
1649
相反的，随着年龄的增加
15:05
that increase with age include experience,
343
893603
3546
会更有价值的，包括经验，
15:09
understanding of people and human relationships,
344
897149
3013
了解人和人之间的关系，
15:12
ability to help other people
345
900162
2291
不被自我意识影响地
15:14
without your own ego getting in the way,
346
902453
2428
去帮助其他人，
15:16
and interdisciplinary thinking about large databases,
347
904881
3525
以及跨学科地思考大型数据库的能力，
15:20
such as economics and comparative history,
348
908406
2825
如经济学和比较历史等事情，
15:23
best left to scholars over the age of 60.
349
911231
3214
最好留给年龄超过 60 岁的学者来做。
15:26
Hence older people are
much better than younger people
much better than younger people
350
914445
2472
因此，老年人比年轻人
15:28
at supervising, administering, advising,
351
916917
3971
在监督、 管理、 咨询、
15:32
strategizing, teaching, synthesizing,
352
920888
3482
战略规划、 教学、综合，
15:36
and devising long-term plans.
353
924370
2706
及制定长期计划上更擅长。
15:39
I've seen this value of older people
354
927076
2020
我在老年人身上看到这个价值
15:41
with so many of my friends in their 60s,
355
929096
2572
包括我那些60多岁，
15:43
70s, 80s and 90s,
356
931668
1990
70多岁，80多岁和90多岁的朋友们，
15:45
who are still active as investment managers,
357
933658
3285
这些人依然是活跃的投资管理人，
15:48
farmers, lawyers and doctors.
358
936943
3013
农民、 律师和医生。
15:51
In short, many traditional societies
359
939956
2130
总之，许多传统社会
15:54
make better use of their elderly
360
942086
2113
比我们现代化大社会，
15:56
and give their elderly more satisfying lives
361
944199
3110
更好地利用他们的老年人
15:59
than we do in modern, big societies.
362
947309
2850
也给老人更满足的生活。
16:02
Paradoxically nowadays,
363
950159
1865
矛盾的是，现在，
16:04
when we have more elderly people than ever before,
364
952024
2926
当我们比以往任何时候，
16:06
living healthier lives and with better medical care
365
954950
2721
有更多的老年人健康地生活
16:09
than ever before,
366
957671
1486
和有更好的医疗照顾，
16:11
old age is in some respects more miserable
367
959157
2707
变老在某些方面反而
16:13
than ever before.
368
961864
1767
比以往任何时候更惨。
16:15
The lives of the elderly are widely recognized
369
963631
2422
老人生活状态被公认
16:18
as constituting a disaster area
370
966053
2767
构成了现代美国社会
16:20
of modern American society.
371
968820
2533
的一个灾难性的部分。
16:23
We can surely do better by learning
372
971353
1681
我们当然可以做得更好，
16:25
from the lives of the elderly
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通过学习在传统的社会中
16:26
in traditional societies.
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老人的生活。
16:28
But what's true of the lives of the elderly
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1942
但，对传统社会
16:30
in traditional societies
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老人生活来说是对的事情，
16:32
is true of many other features
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对许多其他
16:34
of traditional societies as well.
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传统社会的特点来说也是对的。
16:36
Of course, I'm not advocating that we all give up
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当然，我不主张我们都放弃
16:39
agriculture and metal tools
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2115
农业和金属工具
16:41
and return to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle.
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3084
并返回狩猎采集的生活方式。
16:44
There are many obvious respects
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1544
在许多明显的方面
16:45
in which our lives today are far happier
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2479
我们今天的生活远比
16:48
than those in small, traditional societies.
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在那些小的、 传统的社会更快乐。
16:51
To mention just a few examples,
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1706
举几个例子，
16:53
our lives are longer, materially much richer,
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2970
比在传统社会中人的生活。
16:56
and less plagued by violence
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2283
我们活得更久，物质更丰富，
16:58
than are the lives of people in traditional societies.
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3228
也少受暴力迫害。
17:01
But there are also things to be admired
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2528
但传统社会中的人们
17:04
about people in traditional societies,
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2142
的一些事情也值得敬佩，
17:06
and perhaps to be learned from them.
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2319
或许应该向他们学习。
17:08
Their lives are usually socially much richer
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2591
他们的生活通常在社交上
17:11
than our lives,
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1592
比我们的生活更丰富
17:12
although materially poorer.
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2292
虽然物质上比较贫乏。
17:15
Their children are more self-confident,
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2952
他们的孩子们更自信
17:18
more independent, and more socially skilled
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2594
更独立，和在社会上更熟练，
17:20
than are our children.
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2336
比起我们的孩子。
17:23
They think more realistically
about dangers than we do.
about dangers than we do.
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3743
他们比我们更实际地对待危险。
17:26
They almost never die of diabetes, heart disease,
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3529
他们几乎从来不会死于糖尿病、 心脏病、
17:30
stroke, and the other noncommunicable diseases
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3234
中风和其他非传染性疾病，
17:33
that will be the causes of death of almost
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2512
而这些将会是我们今天
17:36
all of us in this room today.
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3086
在这里的所有人的死因。
17:39
Features of the modern lifestyle
predispose us to those diseases,
predispose us to those diseases,
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4010
现代生活方式的特点让我们更容易患上这些疾病，
17:43
and features of the traditional lifestyle
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2234
而传统生活方式的特点
17:45
protect us against them.
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2507
保护我们免受这些疾病的伤害。
17:47
Those are just some examples of what we can learn
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2159
这些只是几个例子来说明我们能
17:50
from traditional societies.
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从传统社会中学习什么。
17:52
I hope that you will find it as fascinating
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1887
我希望你会发现，
17:54
to read about traditional societies
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2409
了解传统社会
17:56
as I found it to live in those societies.
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和我觉得在这些社会中生活一样引人入胜。
17:59
Thank you.
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谢谢。
18:01
(Applause)
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4447
（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jared Diamond - Civilization scholarJared Diamond investigates why cultures prosper or decline -- and what we can learn by taking a broad look across many kinds of societies.
Why you should listen
In his books Guns, Germs and Steel and Collapse (and the popular PBS and National Geographic documentaries they inspired), big-picture scholar Jared Diamond explores civilizations and why they all seem to fall. Now in his latest book, The World Until Yesterday, Diamond examines small, traditional, tribal societies -- and suggests that modern civilization is only our latest solution to survival.
Diamond’s background in evolutionary biology, geography and physiology informs his integrated vision of human history. He posits that success -- and failure -- depends on how well societies adapt to their changing environment.
Jared Diamond | Speaker | TED.com