TEDxDePaulUniversity
Kelly Richmond Pope: How whistle-blowers shape history
凯莉·瑞蒙德·普特: 举报者如何塑造历史
Filmed:
Readability: 4.3
1,571,449 views
身为研究欺诈的学者和纪录片制片人，凯莉·瑞蒙德·普特分享了她从那些历史上著名的举报者身上学到的经验，并解释了举报者分享的信息是如何塑造我们的社会的——以及为什么他们需要信任和保护。
Kelly Richmond Pope - Fraud researcher, documentary filmmaker
Kelly Richmond Pope researches organizational misconduct, ethics and fraud. Full bio
Kelly Richmond Pope researches organizational misconduct, ethics and fraud. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
How many of us have ever seen something,
0
1520
2776
我们有多少人当遇见一些事情时，
00:16
thought that we should report it,
but decided not to?
but decided not to?
1
4320
2560
想着我们应该举报它，但最后决定不去做？
00:21
And not that I need
to see a show of hands,
to see a show of hands,
2
9120
2016
我不是要看到你们举手，
00:23
but I'm sure this has happened
to someone in this room before.
to someone in this room before.
3
11160
3056
但是我确定这个房间的
某些人有过这种经历。
某些人有过这种经历。
00:26
In fact, when this question
was asked to a group of employees,
was asked to a group of employees,
4
14240
3176
事实上，当问到一些公司雇员这个问题时，
00:29
46 percent of them responded
by saying that they had seen something
by saying that they had seen something
5
17440
3496
46%的人说到他们曾经
见过一些想要去举报的事情，
见过一些想要去举报的事情，
00:32
and decided not to report it.
6
20960
1616
但最后决定没有去做。
00:34
So if you raised your hand,
or quietly raised your hand,
or quietly raised your hand,
7
22600
3136
所以，如果你举起了手或者是悄悄地伸出手，
00:37
don't feel bad, you're not alone.
8
25760
2296
别感觉不好，这很正常。
00:40
This message of if you see something
to say something
to say something
9
28080
3376
下面这句话无处不在：
00:43
is really all around us.
10
31480
1776
“如果你看到了什么就说什么。”
00:45
Even when driving down the highway,
you see billboards like this,
you see billboards like this,
11
33280
3696
即使行驶在高速公路上， 你也能看到这样的广告牌：
00:49
encouraging us to report crime
without revealing ourselves.
without revealing ourselves.
12
37000
3456
鼓励我们匿名举报犯罪。
00:52
But I still feel like a lot of us
are really uncomfortable
are really uncomfortable
13
40480
2736
但是我仍然认为我们许多人
当以真理的名义挺身而出时，
当以真理的名义挺身而出时，
00:55
coming forward in the name of the truth.
14
43240
2176
会感觉到不舒服。
00:57
I'm an accounting professor,
and I do fraud research.
and I do fraud research.
15
45440
2576
我是一位会计学教授，研究欺诈行为。
01:00
And in my class, I encourage my students
to come forward with information
to come forward with information
16
48040
4176
在我的课上，我鼓励我的学生
如果他们看见了什么，
如果他们看见了什么，
01:04
if they see it.
17
52240
1216
就应该大胆说出来。
01:05
Or in other words, encouraging
my students to become whistle-blowers.
my students to become whistle-blowers.
18
53480
3736
换句话说，就是鼓励我的学生们成为举报者。
01:09
But if I'm being completely
honest with myself,
honest with myself,
19
57240
3056
但是如果对我自己坦诚相待，
01:12
I am really conflicted with this message
that I'm sending to my students.
that I'm sending to my students.
20
60320
3616
我本人与传授给学生的思想却十分冲突。
01:15
And here's why.
21
63960
1200
下面来解释为什么。
01:18
Whistle-blowers are under attack.
22
66000
2800
举报者正在受到伤害。
01:21
Headline after headline shows us this.
23
69560
3200
一条条的头条新闻向我们展示了这一点。
01:25
Many people choose
not to become whistle-blowers
not to become whistle-blowers
24
73960
2376
很多人不愿成为举报者，
01:28
due to the fear of retaliation.
25
76360
2256
是因为怕被报复：
01:30
From demotions to death threats,
26
78640
3696
从降级和死亡威胁，
01:34
to job loss --
27
82360
1896
再到失去工作——
01:36
perpetual job loss.
28
84280
1856
是永久的失业。
成为举报者是一项艰苦的战斗。
01:38
Choosing to become a whistle-blower
is an uphill battle.
is an uphill battle.
29
86160
3376
01:41
Their loyalty becomes into question.
30
89560
2416
他们的忠诚受到质疑。
01:44
Their motives, their trustworthiness.
31
92000
3216
还有他们的动机，诚信都是如此。
01:47
So how can I, as a professor
who really cares about her students
who really cares about her students
32
95240
3736
那么既然作为一名
十分关心自己学生的教授，
十分关心自己学生的教授，
01:51
encourage them to become whistle-blowers,
33
99000
2096
在我知道这个世界真实看待他们眼光的时候，
01:53
when I know how the world
truly feels about them?
truly feels about them?
34
101120
2560
我怎么还能鼓励他们去成为举报者呢？
01:56
So, one day I was getting ready
for my annual whistle-blower lecture
for my annual whistle-blower lecture
35
104720
3216
有一天，我正在和我的学生们准备
一年一度的举报者演讲。
01:59
with my students.
36
107960
1216
当时我在阅读福布斯上面的一篇文章，
02:01
And I was working
on an article for "Forbes,"
on an article for "Forbes,"
37
109200
2136
标题是：”富国银行和千禧一代的举报者，
02:03
entitled "Wells Fargo
and Millennial Whistle-blowing.
and Millennial Whistle-blowing.
38
111360
2496
我们告诉他们什么了？“
02:05
What Do We Tell Them?"
39
113880
1216
当我正在研究这篇文章，阅读这个案例时，
02:07
And as I was working on this piece
and reading about the case,
and reading about the case,
40
115120
3056
02:10
I became outraged.
41
118200
1376
我变得十分愤怒。
02:11
And what made me angry
was when I came to the fact and realized
was when I came to the fact and realized
42
119600
4136
让我生气的原因是因为
当我了解全文的事实后，
当我了解全文的事实后，
02:15
that the employees
that tried to whistle-blow
that tried to whistle-blow
43
123760
2656
我发现那个举报的员工
02:18
were actually fired.
44
126440
1696
竟然被开除了。
02:20
And it really made me think
45
128160
1336
这让我深刻反思
02:21
about the message
that I was sharing with my students.
that I was sharing with my students.
46
129520
2736
我向我的学生们教授的这个思想。
02:24
And it made me think: What if my students
had been Wells Fargo employees?
had been Wells Fargo employees?
47
132280
4816
我反思道：如果我的学生就是
那个被开除的富国银行的员工呢？
那个被开除的富国银行的员工呢？
02:29
On the one hand, if they whistle-blew,
they would have gotten fired.
they would have gotten fired.
48
137120
4136
一方面，他们如果举报了，他们就会被开除。
02:33
But on the other hand,
49
141280
1336
但同时另一方面，
02:34
if they didn't report
the frauds that they knew,
the frauds that they knew,
50
142640
2696
如果他们没有举报他们知道的欺诈行为，
02:37
the way current regulation is written,
51
145360
2336
就在以现行的监管体制下，
02:39
employees are held responsible
52
147720
2576
职员知道情况但不进行举报的，
02:42
if they knew something
and didn't report it.
and didn't report it.
53
150320
2296
将会承担相应的责任。
02:44
So criminal prosecution is a real option.
54
152640
2976
因此，刑事诉讼是真实存在的。
02:47
What's a person supposed to do
with those type of odds?
with those type of odds?
55
155640
3176
当处在这样两难的境地时，
我们应该怎么做呢？
我们应该怎么做呢？
02:50
I of all people know
the valuable contributions
the valuable contributions
56
158840
3936
我和所有人都清楚
举报者所做的贡献是有价值的。
02:54
that whistle-blowers make.
57
162800
1536
02:56
In fact, most frauds
are discovered by them.
are discovered by them.
58
164360
3536
事实上，大多数欺诈行为都是被他们揭发的。
02:59
Forty two percent of frauds
are discovered by a whistle-blower
are discovered by a whistle-blower
59
167920
2936
相比其他揭露方式，
03:02
in comparison to other methods,
60
170880
1856
比如测量评估和外部审计等，
03:04
like measurement review
and external audit.
and external audit.
61
172760
2576
有42%的欺诈行为是由举报者揭露的。
03:07
And when you think
about some of the more classic
about some of the more classic
62
175360
2336
当你思考一些更加经典的
03:09
or historical fraud cases,
63
177720
1616
或者历史上的欺诈案例，
03:11
it always is around a whistle-blower.
64
179360
2736
它始终会围绕着一名举报者展开。
03:14
Think Watergate --
discovered by a whistle-blower.
discovered by a whistle-blower.
65
182120
2736
想想水门事件——由举报者揭发。
03:16
Think Enron -- discovered
by a whistle-blower.
by a whistle-blower.
66
184880
2896
想想安然丑闻——由举报者揭发。
03:19
And who can forget about Bernard Madoff,
discovered by a whistle-blower?
discovered by a whistle-blower?
67
187800
4576
谁又能忘记伯纳德·麦道夫的
骗局正是被举报者揭发的？
骗局正是被举报者揭发的？
03:24
It takes a tremendous amount of courage
to come forward in the name of the truth.
to come forward in the name of the truth.
68
192400
4456
以真相的名义站出来
需要非常大的勇气。
需要非常大的勇气。
03:28
But when we think
about the term whistle-blower,
about the term whistle-blower,
69
196880
2696
但当我们想想“举报者”这个词时，
03:31
we often think of some
very descriptive words:
very descriptive words:
70
199600
3656
我们总会想到一些非常具有描述性的词：
03:35
rat,
71
203280
1200
老鼠，
03:37
snake,
72
205360
1200
蛇，
03:39
traitor,
73
207200
1616
背叛者，
03:40
tattletale, weasel.
74
208840
2376
告密者，黄鼠狼。
03:43
And those are the nice words,
the ones I can say from the stage.
the ones I can say from the stage.
75
211240
3576
这些词是我在这里能说出最好的词了。
03:46
And so when I'm not in class,
76
214840
1416
所以当我不在课堂上时，
03:48
I go around the country
and I interview white-collar felons,
and I interview white-collar felons,
77
216280
2896
我走遍全国各地采访那些白领欺诈犯、
03:51
whistle-blowers and victims of fraud.
78
219200
2016
举报者和受害者。
03:53
Because really I'm trying to understand
what makes them tick
what makes them tick
79
221240
2936
因为我很想明白是什么让他们如此作为，
03:56
and to bring those experiences
back into the classroom.
back into the classroom.
80
224200
2600
并把吸取到的经验带到我的课堂上。
03:59
But it's my interviews with
whistle-blowers that really stick with me.
whistle-blowers that really stick with me.
81
227680
3856
但真正吸引我的是我对举报者的采访。
04:03
And they stick with me,
82
231560
1216
他们真正的吸引了我，
04:04
because they make me question
my own courage.
my own courage.
83
232800
2296
因为他们让我质疑我自己的勇气。
04:07
When given the opportunity,
would I actually speak up?
would I actually speak up?
84
235120
3856
当真的有说真话的机会时，我真的会说出来吗？
04:11
And so, this is a couple stories
that I want to share with you.
that I want to share with you.
85
239000
2976
接下来是我想与你们分享的一个故事。
04:14
This is Mary.
86
242000
1216
这是玛丽。
04:15
Mary Willingham is the whistle-blower
from the University of North Carolina
from the University of North Carolina
87
243240
3696
玛丽·威廉汉姆是一名举报者，
她揭发了北卡罗来纳大学
教堂山分校的学术欺诈案。
教堂山分校的学术欺诈案。
04:18
at Chapel Hill, academic fraud case.
88
246960
3176
04:22
And Mary was a learning specialist
at the university,
at the university,
89
250160
3456
玛丽是大学里的一位学术专员，
04:25
and she worked with students,
primarily student athletes.
primarily student athletes.
90
253640
3016
她主要的工作对象是学生运动员。
04:28
And what she noticed,
when she was working with students,
when she was working with students,
91
256680
2695
在她与学生们工作期间，她注意到：
04:31
is they were turning in term papers
92
259399
2737
他们交的学术论文水平，
04:34
that seemed well beyond
their reading levels.
their reading levels.
93
262160
3096
貌似高于他们的阅读水平。
04:37
She started to ask a couple of questions
94
265280
1936
她开始提出一系列问题，
04:39
and she found out
that there was a database
that there was a database
95
267240
2016
然后发现有一个数据库，
04:41
where the student athletes
could retrieve papers and turn them in.
could retrieve papers and turn them in.
96
269280
3376
这个数据库可以让学生运动员
获取论文并将它们上交。
获取论文并将它们上交。
04:44
And then she found out
that some of her colleagues
that some of her colleagues
97
272680
2456
她又发现她的一些同事将
她们的学生列入不存在的班级中，
她们的学生列入不存在的班级中，
04:47
were funneling students into fake classes,
just to keep them eligible to play.
just to keep them eligible to play.
98
275160
6216
只是为了让学生们们有资格参加比赛。
04:53
Now, when Mary found this out,
she was outraged.
she was outraged.
99
281400
2736
当玛丽发现了这件事情时，她愤怒了。
04:56
And so what she tried to do
was go to her direct supervisor.
was go to her direct supervisor.
100
284160
2936
所以她去向直属上司反映。
04:59
But they didn't do anything.
101
287120
1856
但他们什么都没有做。
05:01
And then Mary tried to go to some
internal university administrators.
internal university administrators.
102
289000
3816
然后玛丽试着去报告给大学的管理者，
05:04
And they didn't do anything.
103
292840
1616
他们也没有做什么。
05:06
So, what happens when nobody listens?
104
294480
2376
那么当没人听取意见时怎么办呢？
05:08
You blog.
105
296880
1216
博客。
05:10
So Mary decided to develop a blog.
106
298120
1856
所以玛丽决定建一个博客。
05:12
Her blog went viral within 24 hours,
107
300000
2656
她的博客开始在24小时内传播开来，
05:14
and she was contacted by a reporter.
108
302680
2496
然后有一个记者联系了她。
05:17
Now, when she was contacted
by this reporter,
by this reporter,
109
305200
2296
当她被这位记者联系到后，
05:19
her identity was known.
110
307520
1776
她的身份就广为人知。
05:21
She was exposed.
111
309320
1336
她被曝光了。
05:22
And when she was exposed,
she received a demotion,
she received a demotion,
112
310680
3816
而当她被曝光后，她被降级，
05:26
death threats, over collegiate sports.
113
314520
3040
在大学体育部工作时收到死亡威胁。
05:30
Mary didn't do anything wrong.
She didn't participate in the fraud.
She didn't participate in the fraud.
114
318280
3816
玛丽没有做错什么，
她并没有参与进这场欺诈。
她并没有参与进这场欺诈。
05:34
She really thought
that she was giving voice
that she was giving voice
115
322120
2216
她真心认为自己是在为
05:36
to students that were voiceless.
116
324360
2296
那些沉默的学生们发言。
05:38
But her loyalty was questioned.
117
326680
2376
但她的忠诚，诚信和动机
05:41
Her trustworthiness and her motives.
118
329080
2640
却遭到了质疑。
05:45
Now, whistle-blowing
doesn't always have to end
doesn't always have to end
119
333480
3376
如今，举报者不必总是以降职
05:48
in demotions or death threats.
120
336880
1696
或是死亡威胁作为结局。
05:50
Actually, in 2002, this was
the cover of "Time" magazine,
the cover of "Time" magazine,
121
338600
3936
事实上，在2002时代杂志的封面上，
05:54
where we were actually honoring
three brave whistle-blowers
three brave whistle-blowers
122
342560
3336
有3位我们引以为傲的举报者，
05:57
for their decision to come forward
in the name of the truth.
in the name of the truth.
123
345920
2936
她们敢于以真相的名义站出来。
06:00
And when you look at the research,
124
348880
1656
再来看看研究数据，
06:02
22 percent of whistle-blowers
actually report retaliation.
actually report retaliation.
125
350560
3576
22%的举报者都说受到了报复。
06:06
So there is a huge population of people
that report and are not retaliated against
that report and are not retaliated against
126
354160
5456
所以还有很大一部分人揭露真相
但却没有受到报复的，
但却没有受到报复的，
06:11
and that gives me hope.
127
359640
1520
而这给了我希望。
06:14
So this is Kathe.
128
362280
1656
这是凯瑟。
06:15
Kathe Swanson is a retired city clerk
from the city of Dixon.
from the city of Dixon.
129
363960
4416
凯瑟·斯万森是一名迪克逊市的退休公务员。
06:20
And one day, Kathe was doing her job,
just like she always did,
just like she always did,
130
368400
3656
一天，她像往常一样做着她的工作，
06:24
and she stumbled upon
a pretty interesting case.
a pretty interesting case.
131
372080
3736
偶然发现一个非常有趣的案例。
06:27
See, Kathe was at the end of the month,
132
375840
1856
当时正是月底，
06:29
and she was doing
her treasures report for the city,
her treasures report for the city,
133
377720
2776
凯瑟在做城市的财务报告，
06:32
and typically, her boss, Rita Crundwell,
gave her a list of accounts and said,
gave her a list of accounts and said,
134
380520
4056
和平常一样，她的老板
瑞塔·克鲁德威给了她一列账户说道：
瑞塔·克鲁德威给了她一列账户说道：
06:36
"Kathe, call the bank
and get these specific accounts."
and get these specific accounts."
135
384600
2976
“凯瑟，打电话给银行，获取这些账户。”
06:39
And Kathe did her job.
136
387600
1656
凯瑟照做了。
06:41
But this particular day,
137
389280
1376
但是这是特殊的一天。
06:42
Rita was out of town, and Kathe was busy.
138
390680
2456
瑞塔出差了，凯瑟正忙。
06:45
She picks up the phone, she calls the bank
and says, "Fax me all of the accounts."
and says, "Fax me all of the accounts."
139
393160
5176
她拿起电话打给银行说：
“用传真发我所有的账户。”
“用传真发我所有的账户。”
06:50
And when she gets the fax,
she sees that there is an account
she sees that there is an account
140
398360
3296
当她收到传真后，她发现有一个账户
06:53
that has some withdrawals
and deposits in it
and deposits in it
141
401680
2136
有着支出和存款记录，
06:55
that she did not know about.
142
403840
1456
但她不清楚那些记录。
06:57
It was an account controlled only by Rita.
143
405320
3296
那是一个瑞塔私人的账户。
07:00
So Kathe looked at the information,
she reported it to her direct supervisor,
she reported it to her direct supervisor,
144
408640
3976
所以她看了下信息并报告给了直属上司，
07:04
which was then-mayor Burke,
145
412640
2136
当时的市长：布鲁克。
07:06
and this led into a huge investigation,
a six-month investigation.
a six-month investigation.
146
414800
3760
而这引出了大量的调查，
足足花了6个月时间。
足足花了6个月时间。
07:11
Come to find out, Kathe's boss,
Rita Crundwell, was embezzling money.
Rita Crundwell, was embezzling money.
147
419200
5016
最终发现，凯瑟的老板
瑞塔·克鲁德威当时是在挪用公款。
瑞塔·克鲁德威当时是在挪用公款。
07:16
Rita was embezzling 53 million dollars
over a 20-year period,
over a 20-year period,
148
424240
5216
瑞塔在职的20年间挪用了5300万美元，
07:21
and Kathe just happened
to stumble upon it.
to stumble upon it.
149
429480
2480
而凯瑟偶然发现这件事情。
07:25
Kathe is a hero.
150
433080
2936
她是一个英雄。
07:28
And actually, I had the opportunity
151
436040
1696
我有幸采访到她，
07:29
of interviewing Kathe for my documentary,
"All the Queen's Horses."
"All the Queen's Horses."
152
437760
3376
以制作我的一部纪录片“女王所有的马”。
07:33
And Kathe wasn't seeking fame.
153
441160
2336
凯瑟并没有追求名誉。
07:35
In fact, she really didn't want
to talk to me for a really long time,
to talk to me for a really long time,
154
443520
3456
相反，她并不想和我聊很长时间，
07:39
but through strategic stalking,
she ended up doing the interview.
she ended up doing the interview.
155
447000
3096
但是通过我的战略迂回，
她还是完成了整个访谈。
她还是完成了整个访谈。
07:42
(Laughter)
156
450120
1136
（笑）
07:43
But she was seeking fairness, not fame.
157
451280
2216
但她追求的是公平，而非名誉。
07:45
And if it wasn't for Kathe,
158
453520
1616
如果不是凯瑟，
07:47
who's to say this fraud
would have ever been discovered?
would have ever been discovered?
159
455160
2640
谁能知道这个骗局会不会被发现？
07:51
So, remember that "Forbes" article
I was talking about,
I was talking about,
160
459120
2616
所以，记得之前谈到的我课前准备的
07:53
that I was working on before my lecture?
161
461760
1905
那篇福布斯杂志的文章吗？
07:55
Well, I posted it and something
really fantastic happened.
really fantastic happened.
162
463689
3567
我把它上传了然后一些奇妙的事情发生了。
07:59
I started receiving emails
from whistle-blowers all over the world.
from whistle-blowers all over the world.
163
467280
4696
我开始收到来自全球各地举报者的邮件。
08:04
And as I was receiving these emails
and responding back to them,
and responding back to them,
164
472000
3576
在我收到并回复邮件的过程中，
08:07
there was a common theme
in the message that I received,
in the message that I received,
165
475600
2656
有一个主题始终存在于每一条信息，
08:10
and this is what it was:
166
478280
1216
就是：
08:11
they all said this, "I blew the whistle,
people really hate me now.
people really hate me now.
167
479520
4376
他们全写到：”我捅破了骗局，人们现在都非常恨我。
08:15
I got fired, but guess what?
168
483920
2176
我被开除了，但猜怎么着？
08:18
I would do it all over again if I could."
169
486120
3376
只要有机会，我还是会去检举揭发。"
08:21
And so as I kept reading this message,
all these messages,
all these messages,
170
489520
3216
所以当我在读所有的这些消息时，
08:24
I wanted to think,
what could I share with my students?
what could I share with my students?
171
492760
2816
我不禁想到，我有什么
能和我的学生们分享的吗？
能和我的学生们分享的吗？
08:27
And so, I pulled it all together
and this is what I learned.
and this is what I learned.
172
495600
3576
所以我把这些信息全部拼凑到一起，
得到了下面的结论。
得到了下面的结论。
08:31
It's important for us to cultivate hope.
173
499200
3096
培育希望对我们来说是很重要的。
08:34
Whistle-blowers are hopeful.
174
502320
1936
举报者是乐观有希望的。
08:36
Despite popular belief,
175
504280
1416
尽管是在流行的观点下，
08:37
they're not all disgruntled employees
that have a beef with the company.
that have a beef with the company.
176
505720
4296
他们并非都是对公司心怀不满的员工。
08:42
Their hopefulness really is
what drives them to come forward.
what drives them to come forward.
177
510040
4176
正是他们的乐观精神驱使他们站出来。
08:46
We also have to cultivate commitment.
178
514240
2415
我们还应该培养奉献精神。
08:48
Whistle-blowers are committed.
179
516679
1856
举报者是尽责的。
08:50
And it's that passion
to their organization
to their organization
180
518559
2497
正是他们对自身所在的组织充满激情，
08:53
that makes them want to come forward.
181
521080
2416
他们才会想要站出来。
08:55
Whistle-blowers are humble.
182
523520
1616
举报者都很谦虚。
08:57
Again, they're not seeking fame,
but they are seeking fairness.
but they are seeking fairness.
183
525160
4056
再次强调，他们不是在追求名誉，而是公平。
09:01
And we need to continue
to cultivate bravery.
to cultivate bravery.
184
529240
2856
我们还要培养勇敢的精神。
09:04
Whistle-blowers are brave.
185
532120
1576
举报者们都很勇敢。
09:05
Often, they underestimated
186
533720
3696
通常，他们低估了
09:09
the impact whistle-blowing
had on their family,
had on their family,
187
537440
2616
举报对他们家庭的影响，
09:12
but what they continue to comment on
is how hard it is to withhold the truth.
is how hard it is to withhold the truth.
188
540080
4920
但是他们一直在谈论的是隐瞒真相有多难。
09:17
With that, I want to leave you
with one additional name:
with one additional name:
189
545960
2816
谈到这里，我想讲讲另一个人：
09:20
Peter Buxtun.
190
548800
1320
彼得·巴斯通。
09:23
Peter Buxtun was a 27-year-old
employee for the US Public Health Service.
employee for the US Public Health Service.
191
551160
6176
彼得·巴斯通27岁，是美国公共卫生服务的职员。
09:29
And he was hired to interview people
192
557360
3936
他的工作是采访患有
09:33
that had sexually transmitted diseases.
193
561320
2376
性病的病人。
09:35
And through the course of his work,
194
563720
2056
他在工作的过程中，
09:37
he noticed a clinical study
that was going on within the organization.
that was going on within the organization.
195
565800
3936
他注意到他的工作组织
正在进行一项临床研究。
正在进行一项临床研究。
09:41
And it was a study that was looking
at the progression of untreated syphilis.
at the progression of untreated syphilis.
196
569760
4096
这项研究主要是观察
未经治疗的梅毒病人的状况。
未经治疗的梅毒病人的状况。
09:45
And so, there were
600 African American males
600 African American males
197
573880
2776
600名美国黑人男性
09:48
that were in this study.
198
576680
1216
参加了这项研究。
09:49
They were enticed into the study
199
577920
1576
他们加入这项研究后，
09:51
through being given
free medical exams, burial insurance.
free medical exams, burial insurance.
200
579520
3936
获得了免费的体检和葬礼保险。
09:55
And so, what happened
through the course of this study,
through the course of this study,
201
583480
3696
这场研究帮助
09:59
is penicillin was discovered
to help treat syphilis.
to help treat syphilis.
202
587200
4896
发现了治疗梅毒的青霉素。
10:04
And what Peter noticed was,
203
592120
1936
而彼得注意到的是，
10:06
the participants in this study
were not given the penicillin
were not given the penicillin
204
594080
3936
参与这项研究的人并没有得到青霉素
10:10
to treat their syphilis.
205
598040
1496
以治疗他们自身的疾病。
10:11
And the participants didn't know.
206
599560
1816
而这些参与者们并不知道。
10:13
So similar to Mary, Peter tried to report
and talk to his internal supervisors,
and talk to his internal supervisors,
207
601400
5176
所以和玛丽一样，彼得也试着
去报告给他的上司们，
去报告给他的上司们，
10:18
but no one listened.
208
606600
1736
但是没有人听。
10:20
And so Peter thought
this was completely unfair
this was completely unfair
209
608360
2416
所以他觉得这完全不公平，
10:22
and he tried to report again,
210
610800
1576
他又试着去报告这件事，
10:24
and finally talked to a reporter --
very similar to Mary.
very similar to Mary.
211
612400
3656
最终他报告给了一名记者——
这和玛丽是否相似。
这和玛丽是否相似。
10:28
And in 1972, this was the front page
of the "New York Times":
of the "New York Times":
212
616080
4296
在1972年，这就是纽约时报的首页：
10:32
"Syphilis Victims in US Study
Went Untreated for 40 Years."
Went Untreated for 40 Years."
213
620400
4080
“在美国的一项研究中
梅毒受害者长达40年未经治疗。“
梅毒受害者长达40年未经治疗。“
10:37
This is known to us today
as the Tuskegee syphilis experiment.
as the Tuskegee syphilis experiment.
214
625640
4416
这就是我们今天熟知的
塔斯基吉梅毒试验。
塔斯基吉梅毒试验。
10:42
And Peter was the whistle-blower.
215
630080
2216
而彼得就是其中的举报者。
10:44
What happened to the 600 men,
you may wonder, the 600 original men?
you may wonder, the 600 original men?
216
632320
4056
你可能会想知道那600参加实验的人发生了什么？
10:48
Twenty eight men died from syphilis.
217
636400
2976
其中28人死于梅毒。
10:51
One hundred died
from syphilis complications,
from syphilis complications,
218
639400
3136
100多人死于梅毒并发症，
10:54
forty wives were infected
219
642560
1856
40位他们的妻子被感染了，
10:56
and 10 children were born
with congenital syphilis.
with congenital syphilis.
220
644440
2856
10名新生儿带有先天性梅毒。
10:59
Who's to say what these numbers would be
221
647320
2336
如果不是彼得充满勇气的行为，
11:01
if it wasn't for the brave,
courageous act of Peter?
courageous act of Peter?
222
649680
4096
谁能说出这些数字是什么呢？
11:05
We're all connected to Peter, actually.
223
653800
2496
事实上，我们都和彼得有所关联。
11:08
If you know anybody
that's in a clinical trial,
that's in a clinical trial,
224
656320
2576
如果你知道一些加入临床研究的人，
11:10
the reason why we have
informed consent today
informed consent today
225
658920
3176
而之所以我们如今知情
11:14
is because of Peter's courageous act.
226
662120
2120
是因为彼得勇敢的行为。
11:17
So let me ask you a question.
227
665400
1416
现在让我来问你们一个问题。
11:18
That original question,
a variation of the original question.
a variation of the original question.
228
666840
2896
这个问题是一些原始问题的变形。
11:21
How many of us have ever used the term
229
669760
3096
我们有多少人使用过以下术语:
11:24
snitch, rat
230
672880
2976
告发者，老鼠，
11:27
tattletale,
231
675880
1576
告密者，
11:29
snake,
232
677480
1656
蛇，
11:31
weasel,
233
679160
1496
黄鼠狼，
11:32
leak?
234
680680
1200
泄密。
11:34
Anybody?
235
682920
1200
有人吗？
11:39
Before you get the urge to do that again,
236
687640
3056
在你想要再这样做的冲动之前，
11:42
I want you to think a little bit.
237
690720
1816
我希望你能想一想。
你谈论的对象可能是玛丽，
11:44
It might be the Mary,
the Peter, the Kathes of the world.
the Peter, the Kathes of the world.
238
692560
3880
彼得，
凯瑟。
你可能就是那个改写历史的人，
11:49
You might be the person
that could shape history,
that could shape history,
239
697480
2936
或者他们可以成为那个改变你世界的人。
11:52
or they could be the person
that shapes yours.
that shapes yours.
240
700440
2536
11:55
Thank you.
241
703000
1216
谢谢。
（掌声）
11:56
(Applause)
242
704240
3760
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Kelly Richmond Pope - Fraud researcher, documentary filmmakerKelly Richmond Pope researches organizational misconduct, ethics and fraud.
Why you should listen
Kelly Richmond Pope is an Associate Professor in the School of Accountancy and MIS at DePaul University where her research focuses on how organizations design cultures and compliance systems to confront the challenges of organizational misconduct, ethics and fraud. She also teaches in executive education programs at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University and the Quilan School of Business at Loyola University.
Pope's research on organizational misconduct culminated into directing and producing the award-winning documentary, All the Queen's Horses in 2017. Renowned Chicago Sun-Times film critic Richard Roeper cites "kudos to director Kelly Richmond Pope for applying just the right mix of 'What the heck?' whimsy and respectful, serious reporting to this incredible tale." All the Queen's Horses explores the largest municipal fraud in United States history and premiered as the #1 documentary on iTunes, Amazon Prime Video, Google Play and Direct TV during its debut week on the video on demand platforms in April 2018.
At the organizational level, Pope examines factors that encourage employees to whistle-blow as well as the ethical decision-making process. This research has been published in leading accounting and business ethics journals and resulted in being selected to develop a TED-Ed lesson entitled "How people rationalize fraud."
Pope is a popular keynote speaker and frequently advises firms about their compliance programs and training. She is regularly invited to speak to regulators, including the Department of Justice, Securities and Exchange Commission, PCAOB, Internal Revenue Service-Criminal Investigations and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Prior to joining the faculty at DePaul University, Pope worked in the forensic accounting practice at KPMG. She received her doctorate in accounting from Virginia Tech and is a licensed certified public accountant.
Kelly Richmond Pope | Speaker | TED.com