TED Salon Zebra Technologies
Roy Bahat and Bryn Freedman: What is the meaning of work?
罗伊·巴哈特 和 布莱恩·弗里德曼: 工作的意义是什么？
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罗伊·巴哈特 正处于焦虑之中。他的公司投资了像人工智能（AI）这样的新科技以提高商业运转效率。但是他想知道，人工智能对于那些工作会因此发生改变的人们有什么影响，会让人失去工作，或者变得更空虚吗？这个问题为他开启了一段历时两年的研究调查之旅。他的目标是发现人们前进的动力和工作的原因。在这场与策展人布莱恩·弗里德曼的谈话中，他分享了他所收获的启迪，包括一些惊人的见解，我们将从这场谈话中依稀看到未来的工作将何去何从。
Roy Bahat - Venture capitalist
Roy Bahat invests in the future of work, with a focus on automation, data, robotics, media, productivity tools and more. Full bioBryn Freedman - Editorial director and curator, TED Institute
Bryn Freedman helps those who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way. Full bio
Roy Bahat invests in the future of work, with a focus on automation, data, robotics, media, productivity tools and more. Full bioBryn Freedman - Editorial director and curator, TED Institute
Bryn Freedman helps those who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Bryn Freedman: You're a guy whose company
funds these AI programs and invests.
funds these AI programs and invests.
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布莱恩·弗里德曼（BF）：你的公司
资助并投资了这些人工智能的项目。
资助并投资了这些人工智能的项目。
那么我们怎么能够相信你没有偏见，
00:18
So why should we trust you
to not have a bias
to not have a bias
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会告诉我们关于未来工作的
00:23
and tell us something really useful
for the rest of us
for the rest of us
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一些真正有用的东西？
00:26
about the future of work?
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00:29
Roy Bahat: Yes, I am.
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罗伊·巴哈特（RB）：
对，我投资人工智能。
对，我投资人工智能。
当你在清晨起床，浏览报纸，
00:30
And when you wake up in the morning
and you read the newspaper
and you read the newspaper
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报纸上说：“机器人来了，
它们可能会抢走我们所有的工作。”
它们可能会抢走我们所有的工作。”
00:33
and it says, "The robots are coming,
they may take all our jobs,"
they may take all our jobs,"
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作为一个关注职业未来的
初创公司投资者，
初创公司投资者，
00:37
as a start-up investor
focused on the future of work,
focused on the future of work,
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我们的基金第一个宣告
00:39
our fund was the first one to say
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人工智能应该成为我们的焦点。
00:41
artificial intelligence
should be a focus for us.
should be a focus for us.
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所以某个清晨我醒来，
读到那则消息后说，
读到那则消息后说，
00:44
So I woke up one morning
and read that and said,
and read that and said,
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“哦，天哪，他们在谈论的是我。
我正是这么做的人。”
我正是这么做的人。”
00:46
"Oh, my gosh, they're talking about me.
That's me who's doing that."
That's me who's doing that."
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00:50
And then I thought: wait a minute.
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然后我想：等等。
如果事情继续发展下去，
00:52
If things continue,
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那么不仅仅是那些我们所投资的
初创企业会陷入泥淖，
初创企业会陷入泥淖，
00:55
then maybe not only will the start-ups
in which we invest struggle
in which we invest struggle
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因为将来人类会失业，
01:00
because there won't be people to have jobs
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无力购买它们制造的产品，
01:03
to pay for the things
that they make and buy them,
that they make and buy them,
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而且我们的经济和社会也会陷入泥淖。
01:06
but our economy and society
might struggle, too.
might struggle, too.
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我本该坐在这里告诉你
01:09
And look, I should be the guy
who sits here and tells you,
who sits here and tells you,
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“一切都会顺利的。
所有问题最后都会解决。
所有问题最后都会解决。
01:12
"Everything is going to be fine.
It's all going to work out great.
It's all going to work out great.
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看，当初也引进了ATM机，
01:15
Hey, when they introduced the ATM machine,
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几年后，银行里的出纳员反而变多了。”
01:17
years later, there's more
tellers in banks."
tellers in banks."
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这是事实。
01:19
It's true.
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但是，当我仔细审视后，
想到，“这个趋势会加速，
想到，“这个趋势会加速，
01:20
And yet, when I looked at it, I thought,
"This is going to accelerate.
"This is going to accelerate.
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而一旦它加速发展了，
控制中心就有把握不住的可能。”
控制中心就有把握不住的可能。”
01:24
And if it does accelerate,
there's a chance the center doesn't hold."
there's a chance the center doesn't hold."
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但是我想到某些人
一定知道这个问题的解决办法。
一定知道这个问题的解决办法。
01:27
But I figured somebody must know
the answer to this;
the answer to this;
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因为好点子真是太多了。
01:29
there are so many ideas out there.
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我读了所有的相关书籍，
也参加了不少相关会议，
也参加了不少相关会议，
01:31
And I read all the books,
and I went to the conferences,
and I went to the conferences,
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我们列举出了100多种
研究职业未来的方式。
研究职业未来的方式。
01:34
and at one point, we counted more than
100 efforts to study the future of work.
100 efforts to study the future of work.
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那是一次令人沮丧的经历，
01:40
And it was a frustrating experience,
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因为我已经把相同的言论
反反复复听了无数遍了：
反反复复听了无数遍了：
01:43
because I'd hear the same back-and-forth
over and over again:
over and over again:
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“机器人就要来了！”
01:47
"The robots are coming!"
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然后某个人会说，
01:49
And then somebody else would say,
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“哦，别担心，他们一直都说
这会有一个好结果。”
这会有一个好结果。”
01:50
"Oh, don't worry about that, they've
always said that and it turns out OK."
always said that and it turns out OK."
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然后另一个人会说，
01:54
Then somebody else would say,
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“无论如何，这事关工作的意义啊。”
01:55
"Well, it's really about the meaning
of your job, anyway."
of your job, anyway."
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然后每个人都会耸耸肩，
离席去喝一杯。
离席去喝一杯。
01:58
And then everybody would shrug
and go off and have a drink.
and go off and have a drink.
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这感觉就像这场讨论中的
歌舞伎表演中心，
歌舞伎表演中心，
02:01
And it felt like there was this
Kabuki theater of this discussion,
Kabuki theater of this discussion,
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在这个问题上没有人在与其他人交流。
02:04
where nobody was talking to each other.
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很多在技术领域与我共事的人
02:06
And many of the people that I knew
and worked with in the technology world
and worked with in the technology world
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并不与政策决定者交流；
02:09
were not speaking to policy makers;
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政策决定者也不会与他们对话。
02:11
the policy makers
were not speaking to them.
were not speaking to them.
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我们与一个叫“New America"的
无党派非政府智囊团结为伙伴
无党派非政府智囊团结为伙伴
02:13
And so we partnered with a nonpartisan
think tank NGO called New America
think tank NGO called New America
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来研究这个问题。
02:17
to study this issue.
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我们召集了一大群人，
02:19
And we brought together a group of people,
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包括一位来自技术公司的
人工智能主管，
人工智能主管，
02:21
including an AI czar
at a technology company
at a technology company
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一位电子游戏开发者，
02:25
and a video game designer
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一位忠实的保守主义者，
02:26
and a heartland conservative
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一位华尔街风险投资人，
02:28
and a Wall Street investor
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和一位社会党的报刊编辑……
02:29
and a socialist magazine editor --
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事实上，当我们共处一室时，
气氛有时确实尴尬，
气氛有时确实尴尬，
02:31
literally, all in the same room;
it was occasionally awkward --
it was occasionally awkward --
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尤其当我们都想弄明白
究竟将会发生什么时。
究竟将会发生什么时。
02:34
to try to figure out
what is it that will happen here.
what is it that will happen here.
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我们提出的问题很简单，
02:37
The question we asked was simple.
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02:40
It was: What is the effect of technology
on work going to be?
on work going to be?
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就是：技术将为工作带来怎样的影响？
我们放眼于将来的10到20年，
02:44
And we looked out 10 to 20 years,
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希望那个时候会出现一些真实的改变，
02:45
because we wanted to look out far enough
that there could be real change,
that there could be real change,
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但是很快我们不再讨论
心灵传送或诸如此类的事情，
心灵传送或诸如此类的事情，
02:49
but soon enough that we weren't talking
about teleportation or anything like that.
about teleportation or anything like that.
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我们意识到，
02:53
And we recognized --
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而且我想，我们也一直
被这个世界提醒，
被这个世界提醒，
02:54
and I think every year
we're reminded of this in the world --
we're reminded of this in the world --
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预言未发生的事是困难的。
02:57
that predicting what's
going to happen is hard.
going to happen is hard.
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所以除了预知未来，
我们还有其它的事可做。
我们还有其它的事可做。
02:59
So instead of predicting,
there are other things you can do.
there are other things you can do.
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我们可以尝试构想
其它可能的未来，
其它可能的未来，
03:02
You can try to imagine
alternate possible futures,
alternate possible futures,
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这也正是我们所做的。
03:05
which is what we did.
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我们做了一个情境-计划的模拟演练，
03:06
We did a scenario-planning exercise,
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我们想象
每一个职业都有危机的情况。
每一个职业都有危机的情况。
03:08
and we imagined cases
where no job is safe.
where no job is safe.
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我们也想象
每一个职业都是安全的情况。
每一个职业都是安全的情况。
03:11
We imagined cases where every job is safe.
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我们尽可能想象出
每一种独特的可能性。
每一种独特的可能性。
03:14
And we imagined every
distinct possibility we could.
distinct possibility we could.
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而结果让我们十分惊讶，
03:18
And the result, which really surprised us,
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当我们深入思考这些可能的未来
并思考我们应该做些什么时，
并思考我们应该做些什么时，
03:22
was when you think through those futures
and you think what should we do,
and you think what should we do,
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答案事实上却是相同的，
03:25
the answers about what we should do
actually turn out to be the same,
actually turn out to be the same,
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无论发生了什么。
03:29
no matter what happens.
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我们在展望未来10到20年时，
感到讽刺的是
感到讽刺的是
03:31
And the irony of looking out
10 to 20 years into the future is,
10 to 20 years into the future is,
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我们意识到我们采取行动的事物
03:35
you realize that the things
we want to act on
we want to act on
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实际上已经在当下发生着。
03:37
are actually already happening right now.
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自动化就在当下，
未来就在今天。
未来就在今天。
03:39
The automation is right now,
the future is right now.
the future is right now.
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BF：那是什么意思，
这又给我们什么启示呢？
这又给我们什么启示呢？
03:42
BF: So what does that mean,
and what does that tell us?
and what does that tell us?
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如果未来就是当下，
我们应该做的是什么？
我们应该做的是什么？
03:45
If the future is now, what is it
that we should be doing,
that we should be doing,
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我们应该思考的是什么？
03:47
and what should we be thinking about?
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RB：我们首先必须要了解这个问题。
03:49
RB: We have to understand
the problem first.
the problem first.
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数据显示经济发展正在变得更高效，
03:51
And so the data are that as the economy
becomes more productive
becomes more productive
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每一个独立的劳动力
也正在变得更加多产，
也正在变得更加多产，
03:55
and individual workers
become more productive,
become more productive,
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但是他们的工资并没有增涨。
03:57
their wages haven't risen.
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如果你看到青壮年劳力所占比例，
03:59
If you look at the proportion
of prime working-age men,
of prime working-age men,
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至少拿美国来说，
04:02
in the United States at least,
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将现在的比例与1960年相比，
04:04
who work now versus in 1960,
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我们现在有相当于之前三倍的
劳动力不在工作。
劳动力不在工作。
04:07
we have three times
as many men not working.
as many men not working.
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你也一定听说了那些故事。
04:10
And then you hear the stories.
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我和一群沃尔玛的员工说：
04:11
I sat down with a group
of Walmart workers and said,
of Walmart workers and said,
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“你们觉得人工智能收银员怎么样？
就是那个未来主义的自助购物设备？”
就是那个未来主义的自助购物设备？”
04:14
"What do you think about this cashier,
this futuristic self-checkout thing?"
this futuristic self-checkout thing?"
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他们说：“那很好，
但是你听说过现金回收机吗？
但是你听说过现金回收机吗？
04:17
They said, "That's nice, but have
you heard about the cash recycler?
you heard about the cash recycler?
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那是一个现在正被安装的机器，
04:21
That's a machine that's being
installed right now,
installed right now,
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却正在将两份工作从沃尔玛彻底清除。“
04:23
and is eliminating two jobs
at every Walmart right now."
at every Walmart right now."
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所以我们就想：“天哪，
我们还不了解这种问题。”
我们还不了解这种问题。”
04:26
And so we just thought, "Geez. We don't
understand the problem."
understand the problem."
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所以我们看着那些
曾被我们排除在外的声音，
曾被我们排除在外的声音，
04:29
And so we looked at the voices
that were the ones that were excluded,
that were the ones that were excluded,
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都是由深受这转变影响的人们发出的。
04:32
which is all of the people
affected by this change.
affected by this change.
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我们决定听听他们的心声，
04:35
And we decided to listen to them,
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类似于“自动化和它带来的不满情绪”。
04:36
sort of "automation and its discontents."
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过去的几年，我们一直在做这件事。
04:38
And I've spent the last
couple of years doing that.
couple of years doing that.
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我曾去到弗林特，密歇根
和俄亥俄州的扬斯敦，
和俄亥俄州的扬斯敦，
04:41
I've been to Flint, Michigan,
and Youngstown, Ohio,
and Youngstown, Ohio,
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和企业家们交谈，试图
04:43
talking about entrepreneurs,
trying to make it work
trying to make it work
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在截然不同的环境中推进这项研究，
从纽约到旧金山，
从纽约到旧金山，
04:46
in a very different environment
from New York or San Francisco
from New York or San Francisco
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甚至伦敦或东京。
04:49
or London or Tokyo.
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我曾去过监狱两次，
04:50
I've been to prisons twice
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去与那些犯人谈论
他们出狱后的工作。
他们出狱后的工作。
04:52
to talk to inmates about
their jobs after they leave.
their jobs after they leave.
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我也曾与卡车司机们促膝谈心，
询问他们对于无人驾驶卡车的看法，
询问他们对于无人驾驶卡车的看法，
04:55
I've sat down with truck drivers
to ask them about the self-driving truck,
to ask them about the self-driving truck,
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还有那些在全职工作之外，
04:58
with people who, in addition
to their full-time job,
to their full-time job,
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正照料着他们年迈亲人的人。
05:01
care for an aging relative.
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当你与他们交谈的时候，
05:03
And when you talk to people,
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他们提出的两个主旨响亮而明确。
05:04
there were two themes
that came out loud and clear.
that came out loud and clear.
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05:08
The first one was that people
are less looking for more money
are less looking for more money
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第一个是人们很少担心薪水太低，
因被机器人夺去工作而感到恐惧，
05:13
or get out of the fear
of the robot taking their job,
of the robot taking their job,
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他们想要的只是一些稳定的东西。
05:16
and they just want something stable.
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他们想要些可以预测的东西。
05:18
They want something predictable.
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所以如果你在人群中做调查，
问他们想从工作中获得什么，
问他们想从工作中获得什么，
05:19
So if you survey people and ask them
what they want out of work,
what they want out of work,
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对于每一个年薪少于
15万美元的人来说，
15万美元的人来说，
05:23
for everybody who makes
less than 150,000 dollars a year,
less than 150,000 dollars a year,
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他们一般会倾向于一份
稳定有保障的平均薪酬，
稳定有保障的平均薪酬，
05:27
they'll take a more stable
and secure income, on average,
and secure income, on average,
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而不是赚取更多的钱。
05:30
over earning more money.
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如果你考虑到一个事实，
05:32
And if you think about the fact that
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就是不仅对全世界所有
不能维持温饱的人们而言，
不能维持温饱的人们而言，
05:34
not only for all of the people
across the earth who don't earn a living,
across the earth who don't earn a living,
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就算那些能够维持温饱的人，
05:38
but for those who do,
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绝大多数人每月的薪酬
都不固定，或者生活中
都不固定，或者生活中
05:39
the vast majority earn a different
amount from month to month
amount from month to month
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存在一些不稳定因素，
05:42
and have an instability,
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突然间你意识到，
05:43
all of a sudden you realize,
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“等一等。现在我们手上
确实有了一个棘手的问题。”
确实有了一个棘手的问题。”
05:44
"Wait a minute. We have
a real problem on our hands."
a real problem on our hands."
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而他们会说的第二件事，
我们也花了很久去理解，
我们也花了很久去理解，
05:47
And the second thing they say,
which took us a longer time to understand,
which took us a longer time to understand,
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就是他们说他们想要尊严。
05:51
is they say they want dignity.
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05:53
And that concept
of self-worth through work
of self-worth through work
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而这种通过工作获取自我价值的观念
在我们的谈话中连续不断地浮现。
05:59
emerged again and again and again
in our conversations.
in our conversations.
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BF：这么说吧，
虽然我真的很欣赏这个答案。
虽然我真的很欣赏这个答案。
06:01
BF: So, I certainly
appreciate this answer.
appreciate this answer.
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但是尊严不能用来果腹，
06:04
But you can't eat dignity,
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你也不能让你的孩子们用自尊蔽体。
06:06
you can't clothe your children
with self-esteem.
with self-esteem.
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所以你如何协调这两者间的关系——
06:09
So, what is that, how do you reconcile --
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尊严究竟指什么，
06:12
what does dignity mean,
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而尊严和稳定性之间的关系又是什么？
06:14
and what is the relationship
between dignity and stability?
between dignity and stability?
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RB：尊严确实不能用来果腹。
首先你需要稳定。
首先你需要稳定。
06:18
RB: You can't eat dignity.
You need stability first.
You need stability first.
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好的方面是，
06:20
And the good news is,
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许多现在正在进行的讨论
06:21
many of the conversations
that are happening right now
that are happening right now
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都是关于如何解决这个问题的。
06:24
are about how we solve that.
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我是一个研究有保障收入的坚决拥护者，
06:26
You know, I'm a proponent
of studying guaranteed income,
of studying guaranteed income,
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举一个例子，
06:30
as one example,
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关于如何提供健康护理服务的讨论
06:31
conversations about how
health care gets provided
health care gets provided
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和其它有益的讨论。
06:33
and other benefits.
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这些讨论都在进行中，
06:35
Those conversations are happening,
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而我们现在正
亟需理清这些问题。
亟需理清这些问题。
06:36
and we're at a time
where we must figure that out.
where we must figure that out.
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这是我们时代的危机。
06:39
It is the crisis of our era.
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而在跟人们谈论之后，我的观点
06:40
And my point of view
after talking to people
after talking to people
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是我们或许可以做到这些，
06:43
is that we may do that,
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当然这些可能还不够。
06:45
and it still might not be enough.
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06:47
Because what we need to do
from the beginning is understand
from the beginning is understand
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因为从一开始
我们需要做的就是去理解
我们需要做的就是去理解
究竟是工作的哪一方面
给予了人们尊严，
给予了人们尊严，
06:50
what is it about work
that gives people dignity,
that gives people dignity,
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让我们能过上想要的生活。
06:52
so they can live the lives
that they want to live.
that they want to live.
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所以尊严的概念是——
06:55
And so that concept of dignity is ...
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这很难真正弄明白，
07:00
it's difficult to get your hands around,
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因为许多人听到它时——
不瞒你说，尤其是富有的人——
不瞒你说，尤其是富有的人——
07:01
because when many people hear it --
especially, to be honest, rich people --
especially, to be honest, rich people --
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他们听到的是“意义“。
他们听到的是
“我的工作对我很重要“。
“我的工作对我很重要“。
07:05
they hear "meaning."
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07:06
They hear "My work is important to me."
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另外，如果你在民众中调查，问他们
07:08
And again, if you survey people
and you ask them,
and you ask them,
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“你的工作对你来说有重要意义这点，
对你来说有多重要？”
对你来说有多重要？”
07:12
"How important is it to you
that your work be important to you?"
that your work be important to you?"
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只有那些每年能挣
至少15万美元的人
至少15万美元的人
07:15
only people who make
150,000 dollars a year or more
150,000 dollars a year or more
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07:19
say that it is important to them
that their work be important.
that their work be important.
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会说工作重要这件事对他们来说很重要。
07:24
BF: Meaning, meaningful?
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BF: 你的意思是说，有意义吗？
07:25
RB: Just defined as,
"Is your work important to you?"
"Is your work important to you?"
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RB：就这么下定义吧，
“工作对你来说重要吗？”
“工作对你来说重要吗？”
07:29
Whatever somebody took that to mean.
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随便被问者怎么理解这句话的意思吧。
话说回来，尊严依然是至关重要的。
07:31
And yet, of course dignity is essential.
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曾与我们交谈过的卡车司机说，
07:33
We talked to truck drivers who said,
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“我曾看到我的表兄开车，然后当我有机会
开车在路上飞驰的时候，那感觉太棒了。
开车在路上飞驰的时候，那感觉太棒了。
07:35
"I saw my cousin drive, and I got
on the open road and it was amazing.
on the open road and it was amazing.
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之后我开始比那些
上了大学的学生挣更多的钱。"
上了大学的学生挣更多的钱。"
07:39
And I started making more money
than people who went to college."
than people who went to college."
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然后在他们思绪的末尾，
他们开始说，诸如：
他们开始说，诸如：
07:42
Then they'd get to the end
of their thought and say something like,
of their thought and say something like,
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“人们在清晨需要水果和蔬菜，
07:45
"People need their fruits
and vegetables in the morning,
and vegetables in the morning,
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而我正是那个
把这些东西送给他们的人。”
把这些东西送给他们的人。”
07:48
and I'm the guy who gets it to them."
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我们曾经和一个在工作之外
还要照顾自己阿姨的人交谈。
还要照顾自己阿姨的人交谈。
07:50
We talked to somebody who, in addition
to his job, was caring for his aunt.
to his job, was caring for his aunt.
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他当时有着不错的收入。
07:53
He was making plenty of money.
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有一次我们就问他，
07:55
At one point we just asked,
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“你为什么要自己照料你的阿姨？
你难道不能花钱雇别人来吗？”
你难道不能花钱雇别人来吗？”
07:56
"What is it about caring for your aunt?
Can't you just pay somebody to do it?"
Can't you just pay somebody to do it?"
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他说，“我阿姨不想
让我们花钱雇人照顾她。
让我们花钱雇人照顾她。
08:00
He said, "My aunt doesn't want
somebody we pay for.
somebody we pay for.
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她想要的是我。”
08:03
My aunt wants me."
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所以这就是“被需要”的概念。
08:04
So there was this concept there
of being needed.
of being needed.
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如果你仔细研究这个词“尊严”，
它其实很有趣。
它其实很有趣。
08:08
If you study the word
"dignity," it's fascinating.
"dignity," it's fascinating.
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它是最古老的英文单词之一，
算是老古董了。
算是老古董了。
08:10
It's one of the oldest words
in the English language, from antiquity.
in the English language, from antiquity.
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而它其实有两重含义：
08:14
And it has two meanings:
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一个是自我价值，
08:15
one is self-worth,
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而另一个则是一些合适的，
适合你的东西。
适合你的东西。
08:16
and the other is that something
is suitable, it's fitting,
is suitable, it's fitting,
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意味着你是比你更宏大的
某个东西的一部分，
某个东西的一部分，
08:20
meaning that you're part
of something greater than yourself,
of something greater than yourself,
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而这一部分将你
与一个更广阔的整体相连。
与一个更广阔的整体相连。
08:23
and it connects to some broader whole.
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08:25
In other words, that you're needed.
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换句话说，那就是你被需要。
BF：那么你如何回答这个问题：
08:27
BF: So how do you answer this question,
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按这个概念，
如果我们不付工资给教师，
如果我们不付工资给教师，
08:29
this concept that we don't pay teachers,
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不花钱请老年疗养师，
08:31
and we don't pay eldercare workers,
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08:33
and we don't pay people
who really care for people
who really care for people
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也不付工资给那些必需的看护者，
这就够了吗？
08:36
and are needed, enough?
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RB：好的方面就是
人们终于在问这个问题了。
人们终于在问这个问题了。
08:38
RB: Well, the good news is,
people are finally asking the question.
people are finally asking the question.
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作为人工智能投资者，
我们经常接到
我们经常接到
08:42
So as AI investors,
we often get phone calls
we often get phone calls
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从基金会，首席执行官
和董事会打来的电话说，
和董事会打来的电话说，
08:44
from foundations or CEOs
and boardrooms saying,
and boardrooms saying,
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“我们该怎么办？”
08:47
"What do we do about this?"
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他们过去常问，
08:48
And they used to be asking,
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“我们该怎么引进自动化？”
08:49
"What do we do about
introducing automation?"
introducing automation?"
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2112
08:51
And now they're asking,
"What do we do about self-worth?"
"What do we do about self-worth?"
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而现在他们在问，
”我们该怎么体现自我价值？“
”我们该怎么体现自我价值？“
而他们知道
为他们工作的雇员中
为他们工作的雇员中
08:54
And they know that the employees
who work for them
who work for them
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谁有配偶，
谁又有亲人需要照顾，
谁又有亲人需要照顾，
08:57
who have a spouse who cares for somebody,
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对这些人来说，尊严是
他们能够完成工作的必要条件。
他们能够完成工作的必要条件。
08:59
that dignity is essential
to their ability to just do their job.
to their ability to just do their job.
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我认为对这个问题有两个答案：
09:02
I think there's two kinds of answers:
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一个是从仅仅维持生计的角度。
09:04
there's the money side
of just making your life work.
of just making your life work.
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那是稳定性。你需要吃饭。
09:07
That's stability. You need to eat.
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然后你从更广的视角
仔细考虑我们的社会文化，
仔细考虑我们的社会文化，
09:09
And then you think about
our culture more broadly,
our culture more broadly,
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你会问：我们把什么样的人称作英雄？
09:12
and you ask: Who do we make into heroes?
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我想在杂志封面上看到的
09:14
And, you know, what I want
is to see the magazine cover
is to see the magazine cover
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是英雄守护者式的人物。
09:19
that is the person
who is the heroic caregiver.
who is the heroic caregiver.
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09:22
Or the Netflix series
that dramatizes the person
that dramatizes the person
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或者是Netflix连续剧
戏剧化了的人物，
戏剧化了的人物，
让万物照它现有的状态运转，
从而让我们能够安居乐业。
从而让我们能够安居乐业。
09:25
who makes all of our other lives work
so we can do the things we do.
so we can do the things we do.
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让我们按那些人来想象英雄吧。
09:28
Let's make heroes out of those people.
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我会非常喜欢这样的Netflix节目。
09:30
That's the Netflix show
that I would binge.
that I would binge.
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而我们曾经有过
这样的年代史编者——
这样的年代史编者——
09:32
And we've had chroniclers
of this before --
of this before --
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Studs Terkel,
09:34
Studs Terkel,
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美国工作经历的口述史。
09:35
the oral history of the working
experience in the United States.
experience in the United States.
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而我们所需要的就是这样
互相依赖的经历，
互相依赖的经历，
09:39
And what we need is the experience
of needing one another
of needing one another
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彼此之间互相联系。
09:42
and being connected to each other.
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或许这就是我们该如何以
一个社会的形态相处的答案。
一个社会的形态相处的答案。
09:44
Maybe that's the answer
for how we all fit as a society.
for how we all fit as a society.
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09:47
And the thought exercise, to me, is:
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对于我来说，这个思维训练是：
如果我们倒回100年前见到——
09:49
if you were to go back 100 years
and have people --
and have people --
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我的祖父母，曾祖父母，
可能是裁缝，或者矿工——
可能是裁缝，或者矿工——
09:51
my grandparents, great-grandparents,
a tailor, worked in a mine --
a tailor, worked in a mine --
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他们了解了我们谋生的工作，
会说，“这可不是工作。”
会说，“这可不是工作。”
09:55
they look at what all of us do
for a living and say, "That's not work."
for a living and say, "That's not work."
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我们坐在那儿打字，聊天，
没有受伤的危险。
没有受伤的危险。
09:59
We sit there and type and talk,
and there's no danger of getting hurt.
and there's no danger of getting hurt.
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10:03
And my guess is that if you were
to imagine 100 years from now,
to imagine 100 years from now,
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而我的猜测是，如果
想象一下一百年以后的未来，
想象一下一百年以后的未来，
10:07
we'll still be doing things
for each other.
for each other.
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我们仍然会为彼此做事。
我们依然相互需要。
10:09
We'll still need one another.
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而我们也还会把这看成是工作。
10:10
And we just will think of it as work.
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2007
总的来说，我认为
10:12
The entire thing I'm trying to say
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尊严不应该仅仅意味着有一份工作。
10:14
is that dignity should not
just be about having a job.
just be about having a job.
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因为如果你和很多人都觉得
10:17
Because if you say
you need a job to have dignity,
you need a job to have dignity,
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需要一份工作来获得尊严，
10:20
which many people say,
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那么同时也相当于让所有的父母，
10:21
the second you say that,
you say to all the parents
you say to all the parents
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所有的教师和所有的看护者
10:24
and all the teachers
and all the caregivers
and all the caregivers
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开始认识到，
10:26
that all of a sudden,
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他们所从事的无偿工作
10:27
because they're not being paid
for what they're doing,
for what they're doing,
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使得他们缺少了这个重要的品质。
10:30
it somehow lacks this
essential human quality.
essential human quality.
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对我来说，
这是我们时代的巨大谜团：
这是我们时代的巨大谜团：
10:32
To me, that's the great
puzzle of our time:
puzzle of our time:
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我们是否能够找到
保障终生稳定的方法，
保障终生稳定的方法，
10:35
Can we figure out how to provide
that stability throughout life,
that stability throughout life,
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是否能学会怎么创造一个包容的，
10:38
and then can we figure out
how to create an inclusive,
how to create an inclusive,
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不仅仅是在种族，性别，
更是在代际之间的包容的——
更是在代际之间的包容的——
10:40
not just racially, gender,
but multigenerationally inclusive --
but multigenerationally inclusive --
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我是说每一种不同的
人生经历都能被包容——
人生经历都能被包容——
10:44
I mean, every different
human experience included --
human experience included --
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4879
10:49
in this way of understanding
how we can be needed by one another.
how we can be needed by one another.
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能用这种方式去理解
我们如何能被彼此需要。
我们如何能被彼此需要。
BF：谢谢。
RB：谢谢。
RB：谢谢。
10:53
BF: Thank you.
RB: Thank you.
RB: Thank you.
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BF：非常感谢你的分享。
10:54
BF: Thank you very much
for your participation.
for your participation.
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（掌声）
10:56
(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Roy Bahat - Venture capitalistRoy Bahat invests in the future of work, with a focus on automation, data, robotics, media, productivity tools and more.
Why you should listen
Roy Bahat invests in the future of work as a venture capitalist, with a focus on machine intelligence. Prior to his life as a VC, Bahat founded start-ups, served as a corporate executive at News Corp. and worked in government in the office of New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg.
As the head of Bloomberg Beta, an investment firm with 150 million dollars under management, Bahat and his team have invested in areas like automation, data, robotics, media, productivity tools and many others.
Fast Company named Bahat one of the Most Creative People in Business and noted "Bahat is a natural innovator ... one of the most candid people you'll ever meet (check out his LinkedIn profile)." He organized "Comeback Cities," where he leads groups of venture capitalists and members of Congress on bus tours to find the untapped beds of talent and entrepreneurship in America. He also co-chaired the Shift Commission on Work, Workers, and Technology, a partnership between Bloomberg and think-tank New America to look at automation and the future of work 10 to 20 years from now.
Bahat is on the faculty at U.C. Berkeley, where he teaches about media at the Haas School of Business. He serves on the board of the Center for Investigative Reporting, a nonprofit newsroom, and is on the steering committee of the Economic Security Project. A graduate of Harvard College, where he ran the student public service nonprofit, Bahat was also a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford University. He lives in San Francisco with his wife and two kids.
Roy Bahat | Speaker | TED.com
Bryn Freedman - Editorial director and curator, TED Institute
Bryn Freedman helps those who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way.
Why you should listen
Award-winning TV producer, investigative journalist and author, Bryn Freedman joined TED in 2014 as the editorial director and curator for the TED Institute. In her work with TED, Freedman creates and executes TED conference events for Fortune 500 companies, overseeing all editorial content as well as managing speaker coaches and determining both the topics for each talk and the overall conference theme. In addition to curating these events, she works as an executive speaker coach for professionals who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way.
Freedman is also co-founder of Voices4Freedom, an international organization aimed at eradicating slavery through education and media.
Bryn Freedman | Speaker | TED.com