TED Salon Verizon
Fadi Chehadé and Bryn Freedman: What everyday citizens can do to claim power on the internet
法迪 · 切哈德 與 布林 · 弗里德曼: 一般公民能做什麼來在網際網路上獲得權力？
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科技建築師法迪 · 切哈德協助建立了讓網際網路能運作的基礎架構——域名系統和 IP 地址標準等必不可少的東西。現今，他將注意力集中在找到讓社會從科技中受益的方法。他和 TED 策展人布林 · 弗里德曼進行了一場乾脆利落的對談，討論了在人工智慧領域中，西方和中國之間正在進行中的戰爭，也討論了科技公司如何能成為管家，用它們擁有的力量來塑造人們的生活和經濟，以及如果要在網際網路上獲得權力，一般公民能做什麼。
Fadi Chehadé - Technologist, entrepreneur
Fadi Chehadé is focused on finding ways for society to benefit from technology and strengthening international cooperation in the digital space. Full bioBryn Freedman - Editorial director and curator, TED Institute
Bryn Freedman helps those who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way. Full bio
Fadi Chehadé is focused on finding ways for society to benefit from technology and strengthening international cooperation in the digital space. Full bioBryn Freedman - Editorial director and curator, TED Institute
Bryn Freedman helps those who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Bryn Freedman: So you said
that in the 20th century,
that in the 20th century,
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布林 · 弗里德曼：
你說過，在二十世紀，
你說過，在二十世紀，
00:15
global power was in the hands
of government.
of government.
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全球的權力掌握在政府的手中。
00:18
At the beginning of this digital century,
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在這個數位世紀的初期，
00:21
it really moved to corporations
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權力實際上移向了企業，
00:23
and that in the future,
it would move to individuals.
it would move to individuals.
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而在未來，權力將會移向個人。
00:26
And I've interviewed a lot of people,
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我訪談過很多人，
00:28
and they say you're wrong,
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他們都說你錯了，
00:30
and they are betting on the companies.
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他們都把權力押在公司手上。
00:32
So why are you right,
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所以，為什麼你是對的？
00:34
and why are individuals going to win out?
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為什麼個人將會勝出？
00:37
Fadi Chehadé: Because companies
cater to individuals,
cater to individuals,
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法迪 · 切哈德：
因為公司會迎合個人，
因為公司會迎合個人，
00:39
and we as the citizenry
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而我們身為公民，
00:42
need to start understanding
that we have a big role
that we have a big role
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需要開始了解：要決定這個
世界會如何被管理、如何發展，
世界會如何被管理、如何發展，
我們扮演著重要的角色。
00:46
in shaping how the world
will be governed, moving forward.
will be governed, moving forward.
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00:49
Yes, indeed, the tug of war right now
is between governments,
is between governments,
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是的，的確，目前的角力
發生在各國政府之間，
發生在各國政府之間，
00:53
who lost much of their power to companies
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政府有大量的權力被公司奪走，
00:57
because the internet is not built
around the nation-state system
around the nation-state system
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是因為網際網路並不是以
民族國家為中心來建立的，
民族國家為中心來建立的，
01:01
around which governments have power.
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而政府的權力卻是。
01:03
The internet is transnational.
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網路是跨國的。
01:05
It's not international,
and it's not national,
and it's not national,
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它不是國際的，也不是國家的，
01:08
and therefore the companies
became very powerful.
became very powerful.
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因此，公司變得非常強大。
01:12
They shape our economy.
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它們塑造了我們的經濟。
01:13
They shape our society.
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它們塑造了我們的社會。
政府不知道該怎麼做。
現在，它們正作出反應。
現在，它們正作出反應。
01:15
Governments don't know what to do.
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01:17
Right now, they're reacting.
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01:19
And I fear that if we do not,
as the citizenry --
as the citizenry --
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而我擔心，我們身為公民——
01:22
which are, in my opinion,
the most important leg of that stool --
the most important leg of that stool --
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依我的看法，
這是凳子最重要的一隻腳——
01:27
don't take our role,
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卻不扮演我們的角色，
那麼，你就是對的。
那麼，你就是對的。
01:29
then you are right.
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01:30
The detractors, or the people telling you
that businesses will prevail, are right.
that businesses will prevail, are right.
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那些抨擊者，或者那些
告訴你企業會勝出的人，
告訴你企業會勝出的人，
他們是對的，企業的確會勝出。
01:35
It will happen.
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01:36
BF: So are you saying that individuals
will force businesses
will force businesses
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布：所以，你的意思是，
個人會迫使企業，
個人會迫使企業，
01:40
or business will be forced
to be responsive,
to be responsive,
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也就是企業會被迫回應，
01:42
or is there a fear that they won't be?
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或者擔憂「事實並非會如此發展」？
01:46
FC: I think they will be.
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法：我認為企業會回應。
01:47
Look at two weeks ago,
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看看兩週前
有一間叫做 Skip 的小公司，
有一間叫做 Skip 的小公司，
01:49
a small company called Skip
winning over Uber and Lyft and everyone
winning over Uber and Lyft and everyone
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打敗了 Uber 和 Lyft 以及所有人，
01:53
to actually get the license
for the San Francisco scooter business.
for the San Francisco scooter business.
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取得了舊金山摩托車事業的執照。
01:59
And if you read why did Skip win,
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如果你細讀 Skip 為何會贏，
02:01
because Skip listened
to the people of San Francisco,
to the people of San Francisco,
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那是因為 Skip 傾聽舊金山市民的意見：
02:04
who were tired of scooters
being thrown everywhere,
being thrown everywhere,
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他們厭倦了摩托車被到處亂丟。
02:07
and actually went to the city and said,
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實際上 Skip 跑到城市裡，並宣佈：
02:09
"We will deploy the service,
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「我們會將這服務部署出去，
02:12
but we will respond
to the people's requirements
to the people's requirements
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但我們會回應人民的需求，
02:15
that we organize ourselves
around a set of rules."
around a set of rules."
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我們會根據一系列規定
來管理好自身。
來管理好自身。
02:18
They self-governed their behavior,
and they won the contract
and they won the contract
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他們自我行為管理，
擊敗了一些很龐大的公司，
贏得了合約。
贏得了合約。
02:21
over some very powerful companies.
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02:23
BF: So speaking of guidelines
and self-governance,
and self-governance,
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布：既然談到準則和自我管理，
02:27
you've spent an entire lifetime
creating guidelines and norms
creating guidelines and norms
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你花了一輩子的時間
為網際網路制訂準則和標準。
02:31
for the internet.
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02:33
Do you think those days are over?
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你認為那些日子已經過去了嗎？
誰會來領導？
誰會來領導？
02:34
Who is going to guide,
who is going to control,
who is going to control,
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誰會來控制？
誰會來制訂那些標準？
誰會來制訂那些標準？
02:37
and who is going to create those norms?
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02:39
FC: The rules that govern
the technology layers of the internet
the technology layers of the internet
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法：用來管理網際網路
技術層面的那些規定
02:45
are now well put in place,
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都已經很完善了，
02:47
and I was very busy for a few years
setting those rules
setting those rules
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有幾年我非常忙碌，
一直在建立一些規定
一直在建立一些規定
02:51
around the part of the internet
that makes the internet one network.
that makes the internet one network.
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讓網際網路能夠統一。
02:55
The domain-name system, the IP numbers,
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域名系統、IP 地址表白呀，
02:58
all of that is in place.
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這些通通都就緒了。
02:59
However, as we get now
into the upper layers of the internet,
into the upper layers of the internet,
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然而，隨著我們現在進入了
網際網路更加抽象的層級，
網際網路更加抽象的層級，
03:04
the issues that affect
me and you every day --
me and you every day --
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每天會影響我們的那些議題——
03:06
privacy, security, etc. --
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隱私、安全性等——
03:09
the system to create norms for those
unfortunately is not in place.
unfortunately is not in place.
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不幸的是，為這些議題
建立標準的系統還沒有就緒。
03:17
So we do have an issue.
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所以，我們確實有問題。
03:18
We have a system
of cooperation and governance
of cooperation and governance
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現在我們真的非常需要
創造一個合作和管理的系統，
03:22
that really needs to be created right now
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03:25
so that companies, governments
and the citizenry can agree
and the citizenry can agree
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讓公司、政府和公民
能對於這個數位新世界的
發展方向有所共識。
發展方向有所共識。
03:30
how this new digital world
is going to advance.
is going to advance.
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03:32
BF: So what gives
a digital company any incentive?
a digital company any incentive?
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布：所以，是什麽
讓數位公司有了動機？
讓數位公司有了動機？
03:35
Let's say -- Facebook comes to mind --
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比如說——我想到臉書——
03:37
they would say they have
their users' best interests at heart,
their users' best interests at heart,
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他們會說他們心中都想著
用戶的最佳利益，
用戶的最佳利益，
03:40
but I think a lot of people
would disagree with that.
would disagree with that.
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但我想很多人都不會同意這個說法。
03:43
FC: It's been very difficult to watch
how tech companies have reacted
how tech companies have reacted
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法：看著科技公司如何對於
「公民對其科技的反應」
而作出反應，是蠻困難的。
而作出反應，是蠻困難的。
03:49
to the citizenry's response
to their technologies.
to their technologies.
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03:52
And some of them, two or three years ago,
basically dismissed it.
basically dismissed it.
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兩、三年前，有些科技公司
基本上還不理會這些呢。
基本上還不理會這些呢。
03:56
The word that I heard in many board rooms
is, "We're just a technology platform.
is, "We're just a technology platform.
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我在許多會議室中聽到的說法是：
「我們只是一個科技平台。
04:01
It's not my issue
if my technology platform
if my technology platform
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那不關我的事，如果我的科技平台
04:04
causes families
to go kill their girls in Pakistan.
to go kill their girls in Pakistan.
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造成巴基斯坦的家庭殺害他們的女兒。
04:07
It's not my issue. It's their problem.
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那不關我的事。那是他們的問題。
04:09
I just have a technology platform."
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我只是擁有一個科技平台而已。」
04:11
Now, I think we are now entering a stage
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我想我們現在進入了一個階段，
04:15
where companies are starting to realize
this is no longer sustainable,
this is no longer sustainable,
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在這個階段，公司開始了解
這樣做並不永續，
04:20
and they're starting to see the pushback
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他們開始看見負面的反應，
04:22
that's coming
from people, users, citizens,
from people, users, citizens,
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這些來自人們、用戶、公民，
04:25
but also governments
that are starting to say,
that are starting to say,
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但也來自政府。
他們開始說：「不能這樣。」
04:28
"This cannot be."
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04:30
So I think there is a maturity
that is starting to set,
that is starting to set,
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所以，我認為成熟期開始出現了，
04:35
especially in that Silicon Valley area,
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特別是在矽谷地區，
04:38
where people are beginning to say,
"We have a role."
"We have a role."
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在那裡，大家開始說：
「我們發揮著作用。」
「我們發揮著作用。」
04:42
So when I speak to these leaders, I say,
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當我和這些領導者交談時，我說：
04:45
"Look, you could be the CEO,
a very successful CEO of a company,
a very successful CEO of a company,
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「瞧，你可以是一間公司中
非常成功的執行長，
非常成功的執行長，
04:49
but you could also be a steward."
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但你也可以當個管家。」
04:51
And that's the key word.
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那就是關鍵字。
04:52
"You could be a steward
of the power you have
of the power you have
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「你能當個管家，用你擁有的力量，
04:56
to shape the lives and the economies
of billions of people.
of billions of people.
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來塑造數十億人的生活和經濟。
05:00
Which one do you want to be?"
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你想要當哪一種人？」
05:03
And the answer is,
it's not one or the other.
it's not one or the other.
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答案是，這並不是二選一的。
05:06
This is what we are missing right now.
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這正是我們現在所缺乏的。
05:09
So when an adult like Brad Smith,
the president of Microsoft,
the president of Microsoft,
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當像微軟的總裁布拉德 · 史密斯
這樣的成人在幾個月前說：
05:13
said a few months ago,
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05:14
"We need a new set of Geneva Conventions
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「我們需要一套新的日內瓦公約
05:17
to manage the security
of the digital space,"
of the digital space,"
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來管理數位空間的安全性。」
05:20
many of the senior leaders
in Silicon Valley
in Silicon Valley
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矽谷的許多資深領導者
05:23
actually spoke against his words.
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其實是跟他唱反調的。
05:27
"What do you mean, Geneva Convention?
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「你說日內瓦公約是什麼意思？
05:29
We don't need any Geneva Conventions.
We self-regulate."
We self-regulate."
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我們不需要什麼日內瓦公約，
我們會做自我規範。」
我們會做自我規範。」
05:32
But that mood is changing,
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但那種氣氛正在改變，
05:34
and I'm starting to see many leaders say,
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我開始看到許多領導者說：
05:37
"Help us out."
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「幫我們擺脫困難。」
05:39
But here lies the conundrum.
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但難題就在這裡。
05:41
Who is going to help those leaders
do the right thing?
do the right thing?
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誰會協助那些領導者做正確的事？
05:44
BF: So who is going to help them?
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布：所以，誰會協助他們？
05:47
Because I'd love
to interview you for an hour,
to interview you for an hour,
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雖然我很想訪問你一個小時，
05:51
but give me your biggest fear
and your best hope
and your best hope
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但請告訴我，
針對這個問題要如何解，
針對這個問題要如何解，
你最大的恐懼
和最大的希望是什麼。
和最大的希望是什麼。
05:56
for how this is going to work out.
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06:00
FC: My biggest hope
is that we will become each stewards
is that we will become each stewards
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法：我最大的希望是
我們都會變成
這個數位新世界的管家。
06:07
of this new digital world.
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06:09
That's my biggest hope,
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那是我最大的希望，
因為，我確實認為，
因為，我確實認為，
06:10
because I do think, often,
we want to put the blame on others.
we want to put the blame on others.
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通常，我們想要怪罪他人。
06:15
"Oh, it's these CEOs.
They're behaving this way."
They're behaving this way."
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「喔，都怪這些執行長。
因為他們這樣做。」
因為他們這樣做。」
06:18
"These governments are not doing enough."
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「這些政府做得還不夠。」
06:20
But how about us?
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但我們呢？
06:21
How is each of us actually taking
the responsibility to be a steward
the responsibility to be a steward
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我們每個人是怎樣真正承擔起責任，
在我們所居住的數位
空間中行使管家的職責？
空間中行使管家的職責？
06:27
of the digital space we live in?
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06:29
And one of the things I've been pushing
on university presidents
on university presidents
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我一直在催促大學校長
去做的事情之一，
去做的事情之一，
06:32
is we need every engineering and science
and computer science student
and computer science student
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就是我們需要每一位工程、
自然科學和計算機科學的學生，
自然科學和計算機科學的學生，
06:36
who is about to write
the next line of code
the next line of code
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在他們將要寫下一行程式碼之前，
06:39
or design the next IoT device
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或設計出下一個物聯網裝置之前，
06:41
to actually have in them
a sense of responsibility and stewardship
a sense of responsibility and stewardship
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就要對他們在打造的東西
真正地懷有責任感和管家的精神。
06:46
towards what they're building.
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06:48
So I suggested we create a new oath,
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所以，我建議我們創造新的誓詞，
06:50
like the Hippocratic Oath,
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就像希波克拉底誓詞
（醫生誓詞），
（醫生誓詞），
06:52
so that every student
entering an engineering program
entering an engineering program
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讓參與工程計畫的每一位學生
06:55
takes a technocratic oath or a wisdom oath
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都要先唸一段
技術專家誓詞或智慧誓詞，
技術專家誓詞或智慧誓詞，
06:58
or some oath of commitment
to the rest of us.
to the rest of us.
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或是某種我們對其他人
有所承諾的誓詞。
有所承諾的誓詞。
07:01
That's my best hope, that we all rise.
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那是我最大的希望：
我們通通都能站起來。
我們通通都能站起來。
07:04
Because governments and businesses
will fight over this power game,
will fight over this power game,
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因為政府和企業
會為了這場權力遊戲而戰，
會為了這場權力遊戲而戰，
07:09
but where are we?
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但我們在哪裡？
07:10
And unless we play into that power table,
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除非我們也參加這場權力遊戲，
07:15
I think we'll end up in a bad place.
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不然我們最後會淪落到很糟的處境。
07:18
My biggest fear?
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我最大的恐懼？
07:21
My biggest fear,
to be very tactical today,
to be very tactical today,
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現在我最大的恐懼，
非常戰術性地來說，
非常戰術性地來說，
07:24
what is keeping me up at night
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讓我晚上難以入眠的，
07:26
is the current war between
the West, the liberal world,
the West, the liberal world,
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是目前西方自由世界
和中國之間
07:33
and China,
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在人工智慧領域的戰爭。
07:34
in the area of artificial intelligence.
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07:37
There is a real war going on,
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有一場真實的戰爭正在發生。
07:39
and for those of us who have lived
through the nuclear nonproliferation age
through the nuclear nonproliferation age
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我們這些人，經歷過
防止核武器擴散時代，
07:44
and saw how people agreed
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看見過大家都同意
07:46
to take some very dangerous
things off the table,
things off the table,
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將一些非常危險的東西收起來。
07:50
well, the Carnegie Endowment
just finished a study.
just finished a study.
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嗯，卡內基基金會
剛完成一項研究。
剛完成一項研究。
07:54
They talked to every country
that made nuclear weapons
that made nuclear weapons
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他們和每一個製造
核武的國家談過，
核武的國家談過，
07:57
and asked them,
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問他們：
07:59
"Which digital 'weapon'
would you take off the table
would you take off the table
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「在對抗其他國家的學校
或醫院時，如果要你選擇，
或醫院時，如果要你選擇，
你會將哪一項數位『武器』收起來？」
08:04
against somebody else's
schools or hospitals?"
schools or hospitals?"
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08:07
And the answer --
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而這個問題的答案，
握有核武的強權的答案，就是
握有核武的強權的答案，就是
08:09
from every nuclear power --
to this question was,
to this question was,
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08:13
nothing.
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沒有。
08:15
That's what I'm worried about ...
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那就是我在擔心的……
08:18
The weaponization of the digital space,
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數位空間被武器化，
以及為了這個目標所做的競爭。
以及為了這個目標所做的競爭。
08:21
and the race to get there.
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08:22
BF: Well, it sounds like
you've got a lot of work to do,
you've got a lot of work to do,
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布：聽起來你還有好多工作要做，
08:25
and so do the rest of us.
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我們其他人也一樣。
08:27
Fadi, thank you so much.
I really appreciate it.
I really appreciate it.
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法迪，非常感謝你。十分感謝。
08:29
FC: Thank you.
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法：謝謝你。
08:31
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Fadi Chehadé - Technologist, entrepreneurFadi Chehadé is focused on finding ways for society to benefit from technology and strengthening international cooperation in the digital space.
Why you should listen
Fadi Chehadé is a serial entrepreneur who has founded and led several companies in the digital space including Vocado LLC (acquired by Oracle in 2018) and Viacore (purchased by IBM in 2006). He is an advisory board member with the World Economic Forum's Center for the Fourth Industrial Revolution that focuses on maximizing the benefits of science and technology for society. Chehadé is also a member of the UN Secretary-General’s High-Level Panel on Digital Cooperation that will advance proposals to strengthen international cooperation in the digital space.
Chehadé serves on the corporate boards of Sentry Data Systems and Interactions LLC and the advisory board of the University of Southern California’s Center on Public Diplomacy. For two years, he was a Senior Advisor to Prof. Klaus Schwab, Executive Chairman of the World Economic Forum, where he focused on public-private cooperation to address issues affecting the digital economy. As former President and CEO of ICANN, the global authority managing the Internet's logical infrastructure and ensuring "one" internet for the world, Chehadé guided its historic transition to an independent transnational institution governed jointly by private, public and civic stakeholders.
Fadi Chehadé | Speaker | TED.com
Bryn Freedman - Editorial director and curator, TED Institute
Bryn Freedman helps those who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way.
Why you should listen
Award-winning TV producer, investigative journalist and author, Bryn Freedman joined TED in 2014 as the editorial director and curator for the TED Institute. In her work with TED, Freedman creates and executes TED conference events for Fortune 500 companies, overseeing all editorial content as well as managing speaker coaches and determining both the topics for each talk and the overall conference theme. In addition to curating these events, she works as an executive speaker coach for professionals who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way.
Freedman is also co-founder of Voices4Freedom, an international organization aimed at eradicating slavery through education and media.
Bryn Freedman | Speaker | TED.com