TEDxMidAtlantic
Melanie Nezer: The fundamental right to seek asylum
瑪蘭妮‧奈瑟: 尋求庇護的基本權利
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Readability: 4.2
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難民和移民權利律師瑪蘭妮‧奈瑟分享了對於美國南方邊境的危機非常需要的歷史觀點，她展示公民如何使政府對保護弱勢群體負責。她說：「國家透過同情心和實用主義來展現力量，而不是透過武力和恐懼。」
Melanie Nezer - Refugee and immigrants rights attorney
Melanie Nezer is a national leader in efforts to inform and educate individuals, institutions, elected officials and communities about refugees and asylum seekers. Full bio
Melanie Nezer is a national leader in efforts to inform and educate individuals, institutions, elected officials and communities about refugees and asylum seekers. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Last summer, I got a call
from a woman named Ellie.
from a woman named Ellie.
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去年夏天，有位名叫
艾莉的女子打電話給我。
艾莉的女子打電話給我。
00:16
And she had heard about the family
separations at the southern border
separations at the southern border
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她聽說了在南方邊境
家庭會被拆散的事情，
家庭會被拆散的事情，
00:19
and wanted to know
what she could do to help.
what she could do to help.
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她想要知道她能如何協助。
00:21
She told me the story
of her grandfather and his father.
of her grandfather and his father.
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她跟我說了她的祖父和父親的故事。
00:26
When they were kids in Poland,
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他們小時候，還在波蘭時，
00:28
their father,
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他們的父親，憂心兒子的安全，
00:29
fearing for his son's safety,
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00:31
gave them a little bit of money
and told them to walk west,
and told them to walk west,
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給了他們一點錢，叫他們向西行，
00:34
to just keep walking west across Europe.
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一直向西走，穿越歐洲。
00:37
And they did.
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他們照做了。
00:38
They walked all the way
west across Europe,
west across Europe,
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他們一路走到了西歐，
00:40
and they got on a boat
and they got to America.
and they got to America.
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他們搭上一艘船，到了美國。
00:44
Ellie said that when she heard
the stories of the teens
the stories of the teens
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艾莉說，當她聽到青少年
00:48
walking up across Mexico,
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步行穿過墨西哥的故事，
00:50
all she could think about
was her grandfather and his brother.
was her grandfather and his brother.
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她滿腦子都是她的祖父和兄弟。
00:55
She said that for her, the stories
were exactly the same.
were exactly the same.
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她說，對她而言，
這些故事一模一樣。
這些故事一模一樣。
00:59
Those brothers were
the Hassenfeld Brothers --
the Hassenfeld Brothers --
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那些兄弟是海森費德兄弟——
01:03
the "Has" "bros" --
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「海氏」「兄弟」——
01:06
the Hasbro toy company,
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「孩之寶」玩具公司，
01:08
which, of course, brought us
Mr. Potato Head.
Mr. Potato Head.
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也就是帶給我們
「蛋頭先生」的玩具公司。
「蛋頭先生」的玩具公司。
01:13
But that is not actually why
I'm telling you this story.
I'm telling you this story.
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但這並不是我跟各位
分享這個故事的原因。
分享這個故事的原因。
01:17
I'm telling you this story
because it made me think
because it made me think
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我想分享這個故事，
是因為它讓我思考
01:20
about whether I would have the faith,
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我是否會有那樣的信心、
01:23
the courage,
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勇氣，
01:25
to send my teens --
and I have three of them --
and I have three of them --
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將我的青少年孩子——
我有三個——
我有三個——
01:28
on a journey like that.
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送上那樣的旅程。
01:31
Knowing that they wouldn't
be safe where we were,
be safe where we were,
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如果我知道他們待在
我們原本的地方並不安全，
我們原本的地方並不安全，
01:34
would I be able to watch them go?
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我是否能目送著他們離開？
01:38
I started my career decades ago
at the southern US border,
at the southern US border,
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數十年前，我在美國南方
邊境開始了我的職涯，
邊境開始了我的職涯，
01:43
working with Central American
asylum seekers.
asylum seekers.
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處理尋求庇護的中美人士。
01:46
And in the last 16 years,
I've been at HIAS,
I've been at HIAS,
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在過去十六年間，我待在
希伯來移民援助協會（HIAS），
希伯來移民援助協會（HIAS），
01:50
the Jewish organization that fights
for refugee rights around the world,
for refugee rights around the world,
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它是個猶太組織，
在全世界為難民權力而戰，
在全世界為難民權力而戰，
01:54
as a lawyer and an advocate.
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我的工作是律師及倡導者。
01:56
And one thing I've learned
is that, sometimes,
is that, sometimes,
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我學到的其中一件事就是，有時，
我們聽說能夠讓我們更安全、
更強壯的那些政策，
更強壯的那些政策，
02:01
the things that we're told
make us safer and stronger
make us safer and stronger
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02:05
actually don't.
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並非這麼回事。
02:07
And, in fact, some of these policies
have the opposite of the intended results
have the opposite of the intended results
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事實上，這些政策當中，
有些會產生和本意相反的結果，
有些會產生和本意相反的結果，
02:12
and in the meantime, cause tremendous
and unnecessary suffering.
and unnecessary suffering.
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同時，還會造成巨大
又不必要的痛苦。
又不必要的痛苦。
02:18
So why are people showing up
at our southern border?
at our southern border?
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所以，為什麼會有人
出現在我們的南方邊境？
出現在我們的南方邊境？
02:21
Most of the immigrants and refugees
that are coming to our southern border
that are coming to our southern border
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大部分來到我們南方邊境的
外來移民或難民，
外來移民或難民，
02:25
are fleeing three countries:
Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador.
Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador.
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都是從這三個國家逃出來的：
瓜地馬拉、宏都拉斯、薩爾瓦多。
瓜地馬拉、宏都拉斯、薩爾瓦多。
02:29
These countries are consistently ranked
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這些國家一直都在
02:32
among the most violent
countries in the world.
countries in the world.
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世界上最暴力的國家的
排行榜上名列前茅。
排行榜上名列前茅。
02:35
It's very difficult to be safe
in these countries,
in these countries,
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在這些國家裡很難求得安全，
02:38
let alone build a future
for yourself and your family.
for yourself and your family.
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更不可能為你自己
和你的家人建立一個未來。
和你的家人建立一個未來。
02:42
And violence against
women and girls is pervasive.
women and girls is pervasive.
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而且針對女人和女孩的暴力非常普遍。
02:46
People have been fleeing Central America
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數世代以來，
一直有人試圖逃離中美洲。
02:49
for generations.
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02:50
Generations of refugees
have been coming to our shores,
have been coming to our shores,
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數個世代的難民不斷
來到我們的海岸，
來到我們的海岸，
02:53
fleeing the civil wars of the 1980s,
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躲避 1980 年代的內戰，
02:58
in which the United States
was deeply involved.
was deeply involved.
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而美國和這些內戰有很深的關聯。
03:01
This is nothing new.
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這不是新聞。
03:03
What's new is that recently,
there's been a spike in families,
there's been a spike in families,
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新聞是，最近突然有大量的家庭，
03:07
children and families,
showing up at checkpoints
showing up at checkpoints
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孩童和家庭，出現在檢查站，
03:10
and presenting themselves to seek asylum.
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自稱要尋求庇護。
03:14
Now, this has been in the news lately,
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這是這陣子的新聞，
03:16
so I want you to remember a few things
as you see those images.
as you see those images.
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我希望各位在看這些影像時，
能記住幾件事。
能記住幾件事。
03:19
One, this is not a historically high level
of interceptions at the southern border,
of interceptions at the southern border,
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第一，在南方邊境，這不是
歷史上屬於大規模的攔截行動。
歷史上屬於大規模的攔截行動。
03:25
and, in fact, people are presenting
themselves at checkpoints.
themselves at checkpoints.
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事實上，大家是自己出現在檢查站。
03:29
Two, people are showing up
with the clothes on their backs;
with the clothes on their backs;
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第二，大家會背著衣物現身，
03:34
some of them are literally in flip-flops.
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有些人還真的穿著人字拖。
03:36
And three, we're the most
powerful country in the world.
powerful country in the world.
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第三，我們是世界上最強大的國家。
03:40
It's not a time to panic.
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不是我們需要慌張的時候。
03:42
It's easy from the safety
of the destination country
of the destination country
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從目的地國家的安全角度，
來做黑白分明的思考是很容易的：
03:45
to think in terms of absolutes:
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03:47
Is it legal, or is it illegal?
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它是合法的或者不合法的？
03:49
But the people who are wrestling
with these questions
with these questions
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但在努力解決這些問題，
03:52
and making these decisions
about their families
about their families
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並做出攸關家人之決定的這些人，
03:56
are thinking about
very different questions:
very different questions:
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腦袋裡想的問題非常不同：
03:58
How do I keep my daughter safe?
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我要如何確保我的女兒安全？
04:01
How do I protect my son?
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我要如何保護我的兒子？
04:04
And if you want absolutes,
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如果我們要黑白分明的答案，
04:06
it's absolutely legal to seek asylum.
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尋求庇護是絕對合法的。
04:09
It is a fundamental right in our own laws
and in international law.
and in international law.
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在我們自己的法律及國際法中，
它都是一項基本權利。
它都是一項基本權利。
04:14
And, in fact --
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且，事實上——
04:15
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
04:22
it stems from the 1951 Refugee Convention,
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它源自 1951 年的難民地位公約，
04:26
which was the world's response
to the Holocaust
to the Holocaust
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該公約是世界對於
猶太人大屠殺做出的回應，
猶太人大屠殺做出的回應，
04:29
and a way for countries to say never again
would we return people to countries
would we return people to countries
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它也是這些國家的聲明，
表示我們不會把人送回到
表示我們不會把人送回到
04:33
where they would harmed or killed.
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會讓他們被傷害或殺害的國家。
04:36
There are several ways
refugees come to this country.
refugees come to this country.
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難民要到美國，有好幾種方式。
其一是透過美國難民接納計畫。
04:38
One is through the US Refugee
Admissions Program.
Admissions Program.
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04:41
Through that program, the US identifies
and selects refugees abroad
and selects refugees abroad
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美國透過該計畫來找出、
選擇國外的難民，
選擇國外的難民，
04:45
and brings them to the United States.
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並將他們帶到美國。
04:48
Last year, the US resettled fewer refugees
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去年，美國安頓的難民人數
04:52
than at any time since
the program began in 1980.
the program began in 1980.
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是 1980 年該計畫
啟動以來最低的人數。
啟動以來最低的人數。
04:55
And this year, it'll probably be less.
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今年，可能還會更低。
04:58
And this is at a time when we have
more refugees in the world
more refugees in the world
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現在這個時候，
全世界難民數超過了
全世界難民數超過了
05:01
than at any other time
in recorded history,
in recorded history,
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有歷史記錄的任何年代，
甚至二次大戰之後的。
甚至二次大戰之後的。
05:03
even since World War II.
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05:06
Another way that refugees
come to this country is by seeking asylum.
come to this country is by seeking asylum.
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難民要進入美國的
另一個方式，就是尋求庇護。
另一個方式，就是尋求庇護。
05:09
Asylum seekers are people
who present themselves at a border
who present themselves at a border
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要尋求庇護的人，會直接到邊境去，
05:13
and say that they'll be persecuted
if they're sent back home.
if they're sent back home.
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宣稱如果他們被遣送
回家就會被迫害。
回家就會被迫害。
05:16
An asylum seeker is simply somebody
who's going through the process
who's going through the process
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尋求庇護的人，
就只是在美國要跑完整個流程的人，
05:19
in the United States
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05:20
to prove that they meet
the refugee definition.
the refugee definition.
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證明他們符合難民的定義。
05:25
And it's never been
more difficult to seek asylum.
more difficult to seek asylum.
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以前要尋求庇護沒有這麼困難。
05:28
Border guards are telling people
when they show up at our borders
when they show up at our borders
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當難民到達邊境時，
邊境巡警就只是告訴他們，
邊境巡警就只是告訴他們，
05:31
that our country's full,
that they simply can't apply.
that they simply can't apply.
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我們的國家滿了，不接受申請。
這是史無前例且不合法的。
05:34
This is unprecedented and illegal.
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05:36
Under a new program,
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現在有一個新計畫，
05:39
with the kind of Orwellian title
"Migrant Protection Protocols,"
"Migrant Protection Protocols,"
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名稱很歐威爾式，
叫做「移民保護協定」，
叫做「移民保護協定」，
05:44
refugees are told
they have to wait in Mexico
they have to wait in Mexico
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難民被告知他們得要在墨西哥
05:47
while their cases make their way
through the courts in the United States,
through the courts in the United States,
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等待他們的案子
通過美國法庭的審核，
通過美國法庭的審核，
可能要花上數個月甚至數年。
05:50
and this can take months or years.
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05:52
Meanwhile, they're not safe,
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在這期間，他們並不安全，
05:54
and they have no access to lawyers.
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且他們沒有任何律師協助。
05:57
Our country, our government,
has detained over 3,000 children,
has detained over 3,000 children,
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我們的國家、我們的政府
拘留了超過三千名孩童，
拘留了超過三千名孩童，
06:02
separating them from their parents' arms,
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將他們從父母的懷抱中奪走，
06:04
as a deterrent from seeking asylum.
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當作遏制尋求庇護的籌碼。
06:07
Many were toddlers,
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許多孩童還在學步年齡，
06:09
and at least one was
a six-year-old blind girl.
a six-year-old blind girl.
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至少還有一位六歲的視障女孩。
06:12
And this is still going on.
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這種事仍然在發生。
06:14
We spend billions to detain people
in what are virtually prisons
in what are virtually prisons
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我們花數十億美元去把人
拘留在幾乎像是監獄的地方，
拘留在幾乎像是監獄的地方，
06:18
who have committed no crime.
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而他們都沒有犯罪。
06:22
And family separation has become
the hallmark of our immigration system.
the hallmark of our immigration system.
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拆散家庭已經成了我們
移民體制的招牌特色。
移民體制的招牌特色。
06:28
That's a far cry from a shining city
on a hill or a beacon of hope
on a hill or a beacon of hope
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那根本就不是在山丘上的
閃亮都市或是希望之光，
閃亮都市或是希望之光，
06:33
or all of the other ways we like to talk
about ourselves and our values.
about ourselves and our values.
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或是我們用來訴說我們自身
及我們價值觀的任何方式。
及我們價值觀的任何方式。
06:38
Migration has always been with us,
and it always will be.
and it always will be.
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我們一直與移民共存，
這點將來也不會變。
這點將來也不會變。
06:41
The reasons why people flee --
persecution, war, violence,
persecution, war, violence,
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讓人們逃離的原因——
迫害、戰爭、暴力、
迫害、戰爭、暴力、
06:45
climate change
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氣候變遷，
06:47
and the ability now to see on your phone
what life is like in other places --
what life is like in other places --
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以及現在用手機就能夠看到
其他地方的生活是什麼樣子的技術——
其他地方的生活是什麼樣子的技術——
06:51
those pressures are only growing.
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那些壓力只會增長。
06:54
But there are ways that we can have
policies that reflect our values
policies that reflect our values
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但我們還是有辦法可以制訂出
反映我們價值觀的政策，
反映我們價值觀的政策，
07:00
and actually make sense,
given the reality in the world.
given the reality in the world.
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且在這個現實世界上
算是合理的政策。
算是合理的政策。
07:03
The first thing we need to do
is dial back the toxic rhetoric
is dial back the toxic rhetoric
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我們得要做的第一件事，
就是要減少有害的言論，
就是要減少有害的言論，
07:10
that has been the basis of our national
debate on this issue for too long.
debate on this issue for too long.
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我們全國長久以來
針對這個議題做辯論時
針對這個議題做辯論時
都是以這些言論為基礎。
07:15
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
07:22
I am not an immigrant or a refugee myself,
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我自己並非移民或難民，
07:25
but I take these attacks personally,
because my grandparents were.
because my grandparents were.
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但我都覺得這些攻擊感同身受，
因為我的祖父母是難民。
因為我的祖父母是難民。
07:31
My great-grandmother Rose
didn't see her kids for seven years,
didn't see her kids for seven years,
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我的曾祖母蘿絲試著把
她的孩子從波蘭帶到紐約時，
她的孩子從波蘭帶到紐約時，
07:35
as she tried to bring them
from Poland to New York.
from Poland to New York.
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有七年都沒有見到他們。
她在我祖父七歲時離開他，
直到他十四歲時才再度相見。
直到他十四歲時才再度相見。
07:38
She left my grandfather
when he was seven
when he was seven
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07:40
and didn't see him again
until he was 14.
until he was 14.
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07:42
On the other side of my family,
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至於我母親那一邊，
07:43
my grandmother Aliza
left Poland in the 1930s
left Poland in the 1930s
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我的外婆艾莉莎
在 1930 年代離開波蘭，
在 1930 年代離開波蘭，
07:47
and left for what was then
the British Mandate of Palestine,
the British Mandate of Palestine,
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前往當時的英屬巴勒斯坦託管地，
07:50
and she never saw
her family and friends again.
her family and friends again.
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她從此沒有再見過她的家人和朋友。
07:53
Global cooperation as a response
to global migration and displacement
to global migration and displacement
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用全球合作來回應全球移民和流亡
07:58
would go a long way towards making
migration something that isn't a crisis
migration something that isn't a crisis
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需要很長的時間，才能讓移民變成
不是一種危機，
而單純就只是移民，
而單純就只是移民，
08:03
but something that just is,
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08:04
and that we deal with
as a global community.
as a global community.
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我們要以全球共同體來處理它。
08:08
Humanitarian aid is also critical.
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人道援助也很重要。
08:10
The amount of support we provide
to countries in Central America
to countries in Central America
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我們提供給那些造成難民和移民的
08:13
that are sending refugees and migrants
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中美洲國家的援助金額，
08:16
is a tiny fraction of the amount
we spend on enforcement and detention.
we spend on enforcement and detention.
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比起我們花在強制執行
和拘留上的金額，根本微不足道。
和拘留上的金額，根本微不足道。
08:22
And we can absolutely
have an asylum system that works.
have an asylum system that works.
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我們絕對可以找到
一種行得通的庇護體制。
一種行得通的庇護體制。
08:27
For a tiny fraction of the cost of a wall,
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只要用建造圍牆的費用的一小部分，
我們就可以僱用更多法官，
確保尋求庇護者能有律師，
確保尋求庇護者能有律師，
08:30
we could hire more judges,
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08:31
make sure asylum seekers have lawyers
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08:33
and commit to a humane asylum system.
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以及致力於創造
一個人道的庇護系統。
一個人道的庇護系統。
08:36
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
08:45
And we could resettle more refugees.
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我們能夠安置更多難民。
08:48
To give you a sense of the decline
in the refugee program:
in the refugee program:
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關於難民計畫安置人數的下降，
給大家一點概念：
給大家一點概念：
08:51
three years ago, the US resettled
15,000 Syrian refugees
15,000 Syrian refugees
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三年前，美國安置了
一萬五千名敘利亞的難民，
一萬五千名敘利亞的難民，
08:55
in response to the largest
refugee crisis on earth.
refugee crisis on earth.
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這是美國對地球上最大的
難民危機做出的回應。
難民危機做出的回應。
08:58
A year later, that number was 3,000.
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一年後，數字變為三千。
09:01
And last year, that number was 62 people.
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去年，數字是六十二人。
09:06
62 people.
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六十二人。
09:08
Despite the harsh rhetoric
and efforts to block immigration,
and efforts to block immigration,
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儘管有嚴苛的言論
和行動來阻擋移民，
和行動來阻擋移民，
09:12
keep refugees out of the country,
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讓難民無法進入美國，
09:14
support for refugees and immigrants
in this country, according to polls,
in this country, according to polls,
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根據民調，在美國，
對於難民和移民的支持
比以往都還要高。
比以往都還要高。
09:18
has never been higher.
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09:19
Organizations like HIAS, where I work,
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像我服務的 HIAS 這類組織，
09:21
and other humanitarian
and faith-based organizations,
and faith-based organizations,
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以及其他人道和宗教組織，
09:23
make it easy for you to take a stand
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讓你很容易採取堅定的立場，
09:26
when there's a law that's worth opposing
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不論是當有值得反對的法律、
09:28
or a law that's worth supporting
or a policy that needs oversight.
or a policy that needs oversight.
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有值得支援的法律，
或需要監督的政策。
或需要監督的政策。
09:32
If you have a phone,
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如果你有手機，你就能做點什麼，
09:33
you can do something,
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09:35
and if you want to do more, you can.
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如果你想做更多也行。
09:36
I will tell you that if you see
one of these detention centers
one of these detention centers
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我可以告訴各位，如果你們
在邊境看過其中一個拘留中心，
在邊境看過其中一個拘留中心，
09:40
along the border
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09:41
with children in them -- they're jails --
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裡面關著孩子——
這些地方是監獄——
這些地方是監獄——
09:43
you will never be the same.
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你的感覺會截然不同。
09:47
What I loved so much
about my call with Ellie
about my call with Ellie
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我很喜歡我和艾莉的那通電話，
09:50
was that she knew in her core
that the stories of her grandparents
that the stories of her grandparents
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是因為她打從內心深處就知道，
她祖父母的故事
她祖父母的故事
09:55
were no different than today's stories,
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和現今的故事沒有什麼不同，
09:57
and she wanted to do something about it.
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且她想要採取行動。
10:00
If I leave you with one thing,
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如果今天我要留給各位什麼，
10:03
beyond the backstory
for Mr. Potato Head,
for Mr. Potato Head,
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除了蛋頭先生的幕後花絮，
10:05
which is, of course,
a good story to leave with,
a good story to leave with,
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它的確是個可以留給大家的好故事，
10:09
it's that a country shows strength
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但我要留給各位的是，
這個國家透過
這個國家透過
10:14
through compassion and pragmatism,
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同情心和實用主義來展現力量，
10:16
not through force and through fear.
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而不是透過武力和恐懼。
10:19
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
10:29
These stories of the Hassenfelds
and my relatives and your relatives
and my relatives and your relatives
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海森費德的故事、
我的親戚和你的親戚的故事，
我的親戚和你的親戚的故事，
10:33
are still happening today;
they're all the same.
they're all the same.
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至今仍然在發生；
都是一樣的故事。
都是一樣的故事。
10:37
A country is strong
when it says to the refugee,
when it says to the refugee,
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一個強壯的國家，對難民
10:40
not, "Go away," but,
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不會說「走開」，而會說
10:43
"It's OK, we've got you, you're safe."
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「沒事了，有我們罩你，
你安全了。」
你安全了。」
10:47
Thank you.
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謝謝。
10:48
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
10:51
Thanks.
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謝謝。
10:52
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Melanie Nezer - Refugee and immigrants rights attorneyMelanie Nezer is a national leader in efforts to inform and educate individuals, institutions, elected officials and communities about refugees and asylum seekers.
Why you should listen
Melanie Nezer is Senior Vice President for Public Affairs for HIAS, the American Jewish community's international refugee agency. Founded in 1881, HIAS is the oldest refugee agency in the world and has helped refugees from all over the world find safety and freedom. In 17 years at HIAS, Nezer has shaped much of the agency's policy and advocacy agenda and its legal work. She previously served as HIAS's Vice President for Policy and Advocacy, as Migration Policy Counsel and as Director of HIAS's Employment Visa Program, representing at-risk Jewish professionals and religious workers seeking to work in the US during times of instability and crisis in their home countries.
Before joining HIAS, Nezer was the Immigration Policy Director for the organization now known as US Committee for Refugees and Immigrants, where -- in addition to conducting advocacy on immigration and asylum issues -- she was co-editor of Refugee Reports and a writer for the annual World Refugee Survey. Prior to her work in Washington DC, Nezer was in private legal practice in Miami, Florida, where she specialized in immigration law and criminal defense.
Learn more about Nezer's work by watching "The Ground Beneath My Children's Feet: Refugees and the Jewish Story," "'We Stand with You'": HIAS Responds to Synagogue Massacre with Message of Hope for Refugees," by listening to "HIAS Responds to Deadly Attack on Pittsburgh Synagogue," and by reading "Refugee Order Demystified, Q&A with Nezer of HIAS," and "The Global Plan for Dealing with Refugees Isn't Broken, It's Nearly Broke."
Melanie Nezer | Speaker | TED.com