TEDxBoston
Steve Ramirez and Xu Liu: A mouse. A laser beam. A manipulated memory.
史蒂夫 ‧ 拉米雷斯、劉旭: 一隻老鼠，一束激光，一個可以操控嘅記憶
Filmed:
Readability: 4.1
1,127,889 views
記憶係咪可以編輯嘅呢？ 呢個係科幻問題，亦係史蒂夫同劉旭兩位麻省理工科學家所提出嘅。 實際上，佢哋可以將激光照入一個活老鼠嘅大腦，去啟動同操控老鼠嘅記憶。 喺呢個娛樂色彩豐富嘅演講裏面，佢哋分享佢哋係點樣做到，同埋更重要，點解要做咁嘅事。
Steve Ramirez - Neuroscientist
When Steve Ramirez published his latest study in Science, it caused a media frenzy. Why? Because the paper was on implanting false memories in the brains of mice. Full bioXu Liu - Neuroscientist
In his groundbreaking work, Xu Liu investigated how to activate and deactivate specific memories in mice. Full bio
When Steve Ramirez published his latest study in Science, it caused a media frenzy. Why? Because the paper was on implanting false memories in the brains of mice. Full bioXu Liu - Neuroscientist
In his groundbreaking work, Xu Liu investigated how to activate and deactivate specific memories in mice. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Steve Ramirez: My first year of grad school,
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史：諗返我研究生第一年
00:13
I found myself in my bedroom
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當時我攤喺床，食好多班傑利雪糕
00:15
eating lots of Ben & Jerry's
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睇無聊電視
00:18
watching some trashy TV
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00:19
and maybe, maybe listening to Taylor Swift.
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或者聽 Taylor Swift 嘅歌
00:23
I had just gone through a breakup.
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嗰時我啱啱分咗手
00:24
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
00:26
So for the longest time, all I would do
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所以，第一次長時間
00:28
is recall the memory of this person over and over again,
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我喺度不斷回憶關於呢個人
00:32
wishing that I could get rid of that gut-wrenching,
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我希望能夠擺脫呢種自我苦惱
內臟似俾掏空一樣嘅感覺
內臟似俾掏空一樣嘅感覺
00:34
visceral "blah" feeling.
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00:37
Now, as it turns out, I'm a neuroscientist,
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宜家，我係神經生物學家
00:39
so I knew that the memory of that person
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因此我知道對舊情人嘅記憶
同記憶中唔舒服嘅感覺
同記憶中唔舒服嘅感覺
00:42
and the awful, emotional undertones that color in that memory,
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00:45
are largely mediated by separate brain systems.
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大部分係由兩個唔同嘅腦部系統所介導
00:47
And so I thought, what if we could go into the brain
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所以，我喺度諗
如果我哋可以進入大腦
如果我哋可以進入大腦
00:50
and edit out that nauseating feeling
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剪走嗰種令人作嘔嘅感覺
00:52
but while keeping the memory of that person intact?
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但仍然保持對舊情人嘅完整記憶
咁會點？
00:55
Then I realized, maybe that's a little bit lofty for now.
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然後我認識到，呢個諗法
目前嚟講仲係做唔到
目前嚟講仲係做唔到
00:57
So what if we could start off by going into the brain
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咁我哋係咪可以
由進入大腦、尋找單一記憶著手？
由進入大腦、尋找單一記憶著手？
01:00
and just finding a single memory to begin with?
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01:03
Could we jump-start that memory back to life,
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我哋可唔可以將記憶帶返嚟現實生活
01:05
maybe even play with the contents of that memory?
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甚至操作記憶？
01:09
All that said, there is one person in the entire world right now
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但到呢一刻
我真心希望一個人冇睇到呢場演講
01:11
that I really hope is not watching this talk.
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01:13
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
01:17
So there is a catch. There is a catch.
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所以大家要留意返
01:20
These ideas probably remind you of "Total Recall,"
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呢啲諗法或者令你哋諗起
電影《全面回憶》
電影《全面回憶》
01:23
"Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind,"
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《暖暖內含光》
01:25
or of "Inception."
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或者《盜夢空間》
01:27
But the movie stars that we work with
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但同我哋實驗室合作嘅明星
位位都係星光熠熠
位位都係星光熠熠
01:28
are the celebrities of the lab.
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劉：佢哋就係實驗室老鼠
01:30
Xu Liu: Test mice.
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（笑聲）
01:32
(Laughter)
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01:33
As neuroscientists, we work in the lab with mice
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身為神經生物學家
我哋喺實驗室用老鼠
睇下記憶點樣運作
睇下記憶點樣運作
01:36
trying to understand how memory works.
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01:40
And today, we hope to convince you that now
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今日，我哋希望令你相信
01:42
we are actually able to activate a memory in the brain
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宜家我哋能夠以光速啟動大腦嘅記憶
01:45
at the speed of light.
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為咗令你哋相信
01:48
To do this, there's only two simple steps to follow.
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你哋只需要簡單做兩樣嘢
01:51
First, you find and label a memory in the brain,
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首先，你要搵同埋標記
大腦裏邊嘅一個記憶
大腦裏邊嘅一個記憶
01:54
and then you activate it with a switch.
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然後用開關激活個記憶
01:58
As simple as that.
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就係咁簡單
01:59
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
02:01
SR: Are you convinced?
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史︰你哋信未？
02:03
So, turns out finding a memory in the brain isn't all that easy.
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實際上喺大腦裏面搵一個記憶
並唔係咁容易
並唔係咁容易
劉︰冇錯
02:07
XL: Indeed. This is way more difficult than, let's say,
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呢樣比喺禾稈裏面搵一支針仲難
02:09
finding a needle in a haystack,
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02:12
because at least, you know, the needle is still something
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因為至少支針你哋仲可以實在咁掂到
02:14
you can physically put your fingers on.
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02:17
But memory is not.
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但記憶唔係
02:19
And also, there's way more cells in your brain
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而且，大腦裏面嘅細胞數量
多過禾稈裡面嘅雜草數目
多過禾稈裡面嘅雜草數目
02:22
than the number of straws in a typical haystack.
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02:27
So yeah, this task does seem to be daunting.
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的確，個項目睇起嚟幾令人心灰意冷
02:30
But luckily, we got help from the brain itself.
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但係幸運嘅係
我哋由大腦自身獲得幫助
我哋由大腦自身獲得幫助
02:34
It turned out that all we need to do is basically
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所以我哋要做嘅就只係
畀大腦形成一個記憶
畀大腦形成一個記憶
02:36
to let the brain form a memory,
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02:38
and then the brain will tell us which cells are involved
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然後大腦會話畀我哋聽
邊啲細胞參與形成記憶
邊啲細胞參與形成記憶
02:42
in that particular memory.
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02:44
SR: So what was going on in my brain
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史︰咁當我諗返前度嘅時候
02:46
while I was recalling the memory of an ex?
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大腦會有咩變化？
02:48
If you were to just completely ignore human ethics for a second
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如果你唔講人道主義，將我嘅大腦切片
02:51
and slice up my brain right now,
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02:52
you would see that there was an amazing number
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你會發現當我諗返前度時
02:54
of brain regions that were active while recalling that memory.
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有非常多嘅大腦區域會被刺激
02:57
Now one brain region that would be robustly active
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而其中一個強烈活躍嘅區域係海馬體
03:00
in particular is called the hippocampus,
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03:02
which for decades has been implicated in processing
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一個幾十年嚟被認為
會處理近期同親切記憶嘅區域
會處理近期同親切記憶嘅區域
03:05
the kinds of memories that we hold near and dear,
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03:07
which also makes it an ideal target to go into
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所以佢都係一個理想地方
畀人可以進入、尋找同啟動記憶
畀人可以進入、尋找同啟動記憶
03:10
and to try and find and maybe reactivate a memory.
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03:13
XL: When you zoom in into the hippocampus,
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劉︰當你令用顯微鏡觀察海馬體
03:15
of course you will see lots of cells,
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唔單止會見到好多細胞
03:17
but we are able to find which cells are involved
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我哋仲能夠搵到
嗰啲參與某個記憶嘅細胞
嗰啲參與某個記憶嘅細胞
03:20
in a particular memory,
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03:22
because whenever a cell is active,
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因為當細胞活動時
03:24
like when it's forming a memory,
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例如當細胞建立某種記憶時
03:26
it will also leave a footprint that will later allow us to know
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細胞會留低痕跡
我哋就可以透過痕跡
知道最近邊啲細胞啟動過
知道最近邊啲細胞啟動過
03:30
these cells are recently active.
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03:32
SR: So the same way that building lights at night
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史︰呢樣就好似夜晚寫字樓著咗燈
03:34
let you know that somebody's probably working there at any given moment,
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你會知道有人做緊嘢
03:37
in a very real sense, there are biological sensors
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同樣細胞都有咁嘅燈
不過叫生物感應器
03:41
within a cell that are turned on
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當細胞做緊嘢嘅時候，生物感應器會著
03:43
only when that cell was just working.
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03:45
They're sort of biological windows that light up
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生物感應器就好似盞燈一樣
畀我哋知道細胞活動
畀我哋知道細胞活動
03:47
to let us know that that cell was just active.
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03:49
XL: So we clipped part of this sensor,
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劉︰所以我哋將生物感應器
連接到開關，控制呢啲細胞
連接到開關，控制呢啲細胞
03:51
and attached that to a switch to control the cells,
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03:55
and we packed this switch into an engineered virus
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我哋將呢個開關擺喺
一個改造過嘅病毒裏面
一個改造過嘅病毒裏面
03:59
and injected that into the brain of the mice.
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將病毒注入老鼠大腦
04:01
So whenever a memory is being formed,
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於是當一個記憶形成嗰陣
04:04
any active cells for that memory
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任何參與在內嘅細胞
都會裝上呢個開關
都會裝上呢個開關
04:06
will also have this switch installed.
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04:09
SR: So here is what the hippocampus looks like
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史︰例如，呢個就係海馬體
建立咗一個恐懼記憶之後嘅樣
建立咗一個恐懼記憶之後嘅樣
04:10
after forming a fear memory, for example.
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04:13
The sea of blue that you see here
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呢張相藍色部分就係密集嘅腦細胞
04:15
are densely packed brain cells,
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04:17
but the green brain cells,
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而呢啲綠色嘅腦細胞
就係參與形成恐懼記憶
就係參與形成恐懼記憶
04:19
the green brain cells are the ones that are holding on
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04:21
to a specific fear memory.
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04:23
So you are looking at the crystallization
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你哋宜家睇到嘅
係恐懼快速形成嘅過程
係恐懼快速形成嘅過程
04:25
of the fleeting formation of fear.
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04:27
You're actually looking at the cross-section of a memory right now.
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正確啲嚟講係記憶嘅橫切面
04:31
XL: Now, for the switch we have been talking about,
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劉︰我哋一直討論緊嘅開關需要快
04:33
ideally, the switch has to act really fast.
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04:36
It shouldn't take minutes or hours to work.
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佢唔可以花幾分鐘或者幾個鐘去做到
04:39
It should act at the speed of the brain, in milliseconds.
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佢應該以大腦嘅速度去做
即係以幾微秒為限
04:43
SR: So what do you think, Xu?
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史︰劉，咁你點睇？
04:44
Could we use, let's say, pharmacological drugs
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我哋可唔可以用，例如藥物
啟動或者熄咗大腦細胞？
啟動或者熄咗大腦細胞？
04:47
to activate or inactivate brain cells?
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04:49
XL: Nah. Drugs are pretty messy. They spread everywhere.
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劉︰唔得。因為藥物會擴散，好麻煩
04:53
And also it takes them forever to act on cells.
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而且藥物作用係永遠嘅
04:56
So it will not allow us to control a memory in real time.
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所以我哋唔能夠用藥物即時控制記憶
05:00
So Steve, how about let's zap the brain with electricity?
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咁史蒂夫，用電控制大腦你覺得點？
05:04
SR: So electricity is pretty fast,
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史︰電非常之快
05:06
but we probably wouldn't be able to target it
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但係我哋未必可以將電帶到
負責某個記憶嘅細胞當中
負責某個記憶嘅細胞當中
05:08
to just the specific cells that hold onto a memory,
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05:10
and we'd probably fry the brain.
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我哋甚至乎會灼傷大腦
05:12
XL: Oh. That's true. So it looks like, hmm,
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劉︰哦。 的確係
所以我哋應該搵更好嘅方法
以光速進入大腦細胞
以光速進入大腦細胞
05:15
indeed we need to find a better way
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05:18
to impact the brain at the speed of light.
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05:21
SR: So it just so happens that light travels at the speed of light.
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史︰正因為光本身就有光速
05:26
So maybe we could activate or inactive memories
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或者我哋可以用光
嚟到激活同熄咗記憶
嚟到激活同熄咗記憶
05:30
by just using light --
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05:31
XL: That's pretty fast.
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劉︰光速非常快
05:33
SR: -- and because normally brain cells
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而且由於正常嘅大腦細胞對光冇反應
05:35
don't respond to pulses of light,
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05:36
so those that would respond to pulses of light
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因此嗰啲對光有反應嘅細胞
05:38
are those that contain a light-sensitive switch.
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就係含有光敏感開關嘅細胞
05:41
Now to do that, first we need to trick brain cells
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為咗令呢啲細胞對激光有反應
05:43
to respond to laser beams.
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我哋首先要呃腦細胞
05:44
XL: Yep. You heard it right.
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劉：你哋冇聽錯
05:45
We are trying to shoot lasers into the brain.
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我哋嘗試將激光射入大腦
05:47
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
05:49
SR: And the technique that lets us do that is optogenetics.
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我哋靠嘅技術就係光遺傳學
05:52
Optogenetics gave us this light switch that we can use
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光遺傳學畀咗光敏感開關我哋
令我哋能夠啟動或者熄咗腦細胞
05:56
to turn brain cells on or off,
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05:57
and the name of that switch is channelrhodopsin,
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而呢個光敏感開關個名
叫做光敏感通道
叫做光敏感通道
06:00
seen here as these green dots attached to this brain cell.
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就係嗰啲黏著腦細胞嘅綠色小點
06:02
You can think of channelrhodopsin as a sort of light-sensitive switch
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你哋可以將光敏感通道
當做一種對光敏感
當做一種對光敏感
06:05
that can be artificially installed in brain cells
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可以俾人安裝入腦細胞嘅開關
06:08
so that now we can use that switch
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所以，宜家我哋可以簡單襟個開關
06:10
to activate or inactivate the brain cell simply by clicking it,
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啟動或熄咗腦細胞
06:13
and in this case we click it on with pulses of light.
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喺呢個情況，我哋用光脈衝開開關
06:15
XL: So we attach this light-sensitive switch of channelrhodopsin
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劉︰我哋將呢種
光敏感通道嘅光敏感開關
光敏感通道嘅光敏感開關
06:19
to the sensor we've been talking about
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擺喺生物感應器上，並注入大腦
06:21
and inject this into the brain.
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06:24
So whenever a memory is being formed,
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當一個記憶形成嘅時候
06:27
any active cell for that particular memory
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有份形成嗰個記憶嘅細胞
都會有呢個光敏感開關
都會有呢個光敏感開關
06:29
will also have this light-sensitive switch installed in it
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06:33
so that we can control these cells
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咁樣我哋就可以
通過照射激光控制呢啲細胞
通過照射激光控制呢啲細胞
06:35
by the flipping of a laser just like this one you see.
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06:39
SR: So let's put all of this to the test now.
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史︰宜家就係測試所有嘢嘅時間
06:42
What we can do is we can take our mice
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我哋能夠做嘅就係
將老鼠放入一個咁嘅盒
將老鼠放入一個咁嘅盒
06:44
and then we can put them in a box that looks exactly like this box here,
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06:47
and then we can give them a very mild foot shock
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然後輕微點擊老鼠足部
令老鼠對呢個盒產生一個恐懼記憶
06:50
so that they form a fear memory of this box.
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06:52
They learn that something bad happened here.
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令佢哋知道盒入面有唔好嘅嘢發生
06:54
Now with our system, the cells that are active
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喺老鼠嘅海馬體裏面
06:56
in the hippocampus in the making of this memory,
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形成呢一個記憶嘅活躍細胞
都會有光敏感通道
都會有光敏感通道
06:59
only those cells will now contain channelrhodopsin.
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07:02
XL: When you are as small as a mouse,
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劉︰當你有一隻老鼠咁細
07:05
it feels as if the whole world is trying to get you.
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你會覺得成個世界都喺度想捉你
07:08
So your best response of defense
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所以，你最好嘅防衛
係收埋自己、唔被發現
係收埋自己、唔被發現
07:10
is trying to be undetected.
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07:13
Whenever a mouse is in fear,
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當老鼠處於恐懼狀態
07:15
it will show this very typical behavior
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就會表現出呢一種典型行為
07:16
by staying at one corner of the box,
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即係呆喺盒嘅角落唔郁
07:18
trying to not move any part of its body,
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07:21
and this posture is called freezing.
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呢一種狀態我哋稱之為「靜止」
07:24
So if a mouse remembers that something bad happened in this box,
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如果老鼠記得個盒有唔好嘅事發生
07:29
and when we put them back into the same box,
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而我哋將佢哋放返同一個盒時
佢哋本能反應就係靜止唔郁
07:31
it will basically show freezing
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07:33
because it doesn't want to be detected
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咁係因為佢哋唔想俾盒裡面
任何潛在嘅威脅物發現
任何潛在嘅威脅物發現
07:35
by any potential threats in this box.
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07:38
SR: So you can think of freezing as,
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史︰因此，你哋可以將「靜止」
07:40
you're walking down the street minding your own business,
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諗成你喺街行，腦裡面諗著自己嘅嘢
07:42
and then out of nowhere you almost run into
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然後幾乎要撞到你嘅前女友或者前男友
07:43
an ex-girlfriend or ex-boyfriend,
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07:46
and now those terrifying two seconds
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喺呢兩秒裏面
07:48
where you start thinking, "What do I do? Do I say hi?
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你會諗︰我做咩好？打招呼？
同佢握手？ 抑或轉身走？
同佢握手？ 抑或轉身走？
07:50
Do I shake their hand? Do I turn around and run away?
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07:51
Do I sit here and pretend like I don't exist?"
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我係咪應該坐喺度扮唔存在？
07:53
Those kinds of fleeting thoughts that physically incapacitate you,
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呢啲突然喺腦海出現嘅諗法
令你無法控制自己嘅身體
令你無法控制自己嘅身體
07:56
that temporarily give you that deer-in-headlights look.
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令你暫時流露出孤獨無助嘅表情
07:59
XL: However, if you put the mouse in a completely different
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劉︰但係，如果你將老鼠
放喺一個完全唔一樣嘅新籠裡面
放喺一個完全唔一樣嘅新籠裡面
08:02
new box, like the next one,
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好似跟著落嚟呢個咁
08:05
it will not be afraid of this box
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老鼠就唔會驚呢個籠
08:08
because there's no reason that it will be afraid of this new environment.
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因為老鼠冇理由去驚呢個新環境
08:12
But what if we put the mouse in this new box
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但如果我哋將老鼠放喺新籠裡面
同時用我哋用激光啟動恐懼記憶嘅話
08:15
but at the same time, we activate the fear memory
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08:19
using lasers just like we did before?
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會發生啲咩？
08:22
Are we going to bring back the fear memory
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我哋係咪可以喺一個
完全唔一樣嘅環境裏面
完全唔一樣嘅環境裏面
喚醒返老鼠對第一個籠嘅恐懼記憶？
08:25
for the first box into this completely new environment?
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08:29
SR: All right, and here's the million-dollar experiment.
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史︰呢個係價值百萬美元嘅實驗
08:31
Now to bring back to life the memory of that day,
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宜家我哋講返當日嘅記憶
08:34
I remember that the Red Sox had just won,
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我記得嗰日波士頓紅襪隊贏咗比賽
08:36
it was a green spring day,
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嗰日又係一個生機勃勃嘅春天日子
08:38
perfect for going up and down the river
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極適合喺河邊散步
同埋去 North End 買一啲甜酥卷
同埋去 North End 買一啲甜酥卷
08:40
and then maybe going to the North End
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08:43
to get some cannolis, #justsaying.
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08:45
Now Xu and I, on the other hand,
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另一方面，我同劉
08:48
were in a completely windowless black room
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喺一個冇窗、全黑嘅房裡面
08:51
not making any ocular movement that even remotely resembles an eye blink
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眼球郁都唔動
因為隻眼郁嘅話離遠睇似係眨眼
08:54
because our eyes were fixed onto a computer screen.
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所以我哋眼都冇眨咁望著電腦螢幕
08:57
We were looking at this mouse here trying to activate a memory
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我哋喺度望緊隻老鼠
嘗試第一次用我哋嘅技術
去啟動一個記憶
去啟動一個記憶
08:59
for the first time using our technique.
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09:01
XL: And this is what we saw.
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劉︰呢個就係我哋睇到嘅
09:04
When we first put the mouse into this box,
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當我哋第一次將老鼠放入呢個籠
09:06
it's exploring, sniffing around, walking around,
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老鼠會探索，聞嘢，周圍走，做自己嘢
09:09
minding its own business,
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09:11
because actually by nature,
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因為老鼠天生係好好奇嘅動物
09:13
mice are pretty curious animals.
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09:15
They want to know, what's going on in this new box?
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佢哋想知道，呢個新嘅籠有乜嘢
09:17
It's interesting.
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老鼠好得意
09:19
But the moment we turned on the laser, like you see now,
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但當我哋啟動激光嘅一刻
就好似你宜家睇到咁
09:22
all of a sudden the mouse entered this freezing mode.
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老鼠即刻進入靜止狀態
09:25
It stayed here and tried not to move any part of its body.
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老鼠呆咗，唔郁
09:30
Clearly it's freezing.
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好明顯，老鼠定咗型
09:31
So indeed, it looks like we are able to bring back
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睇起上嚟，我哋做到
09:34
the fear memory for the first box
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將第一個籠嘅恐懼記憶帶到去新環境
09:36
in this completely new environment.
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09:39
While watching this, Steve and I
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當我哋睇到結果，史蒂夫同我都震驚咗
09:41
are as shocked as the mouse itself.
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就好似隻老鼠一樣
09:44
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
09:45
So after the experiment, the two of us just left the room
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實驗完咗之後，我哋離開間房
09:48
without saying anything.
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冇講過嘢
09:50
After a kind of long, awkward period of time,
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經過好長又尷尬嘅一段時間
史蒂夫終於打破沉默
史蒂夫終於打破沉默
09:53
Steve broke the silence.
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09:55
SR: "Did that just work?"
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史︰我當時話「我哋嘅技術係得嘅？ 」
09:58
XL: "Yes," I said. "Indeed it worked!"
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劉：我話「係，真係得咗！ 」
10:01
We're really excited about this.
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我哋對結果都非常激動
10:03
And then we published our findings
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然後我哋將個發現刊登喺自然期刊度
10:05
in the journal Nature.
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10:07
Ever since the publication of our work,
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自從發表咗我哋嘅研究之後
10:10
we've been receiving numerous comments
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我哋喺網上收到好多留言
10:12
from all over the Internet.
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10:14
Maybe we can take a look at some of those.
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我哋可以睇其中一啲
10:18
["OMGGGGG FINALLY... so much more to come, virtual reality, neural manipulation, visual dream emulation... neural coding, 'writing and re-writing of memories', mental illnesses. Ahhh the future is awesome"]
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[ 天啊。最後…有咁多嘢！虛幻科技、神經控制、視覺夢想嘅再現、
神經編碼、「寫同重寫記憶 」、精神疾病。將來係咁好嘅。]
神經編碼、「寫同重寫記憶 」、精神疾病。將來係咁好嘅。]
10:20
SR: So the first thing that you'll notice is that people
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史︰首先你會注意到啲人
對呢項研究有好強烈嘅意見
對呢項研究有好強烈嘅意見
10:22
have really strong opinions about this kind of work.
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10:25
Now I happen to completely agree with the optimism
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宜家，我開始非常認同
第一個人嘅樂觀睇法
第一個人嘅樂觀睇法
10:28
of this first quote,
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10:29
because on a scale of zero to Morgan Freeman's voice,
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因為相對於Morgan Freeman 嘅評論
10:31
it happens to be one of the most evocative accolades
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呢個係我有生以嚟聽到最好嘅讚美說話
10:34
that I've heard come our way.
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10:35
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
10:37
But as you'll see, it's not the only opinion that's out there.
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但係就好似你哋睇到嘅一樣
呢個並唔係唯一嘅意見
呢個並唔係唯一嘅意見
10:39
["This scares the hell out of me... What if they could do that easily in humans in a couple of years?! OH MY GOD WE'RE DOOMED"]
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[ 太不可思議啦…如果佢哋可以喺幾年內
將呢種技術應用到人身上會點？ 天啊！我哋命中註定係咁。]
將呢種技術應用到人身上會點？ 天啊！我哋命中註定係咁。]
10:41
XL: Indeed, if we take a look at the second one,
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劉︰如果我哋睇睇第二個留言
10:43
I think we can all agree that it's, meh,
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我諗我哋全部人都覺得
嗰個人講嘅嘢冇咁正面
嗰個人講嘅嘢冇咁正面
10:45
probably not as positive.
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10:47
But this also reminds us that,
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但呢樣都提醒我哋
10:49
although we are still working with mice,
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雖然我哋宜家仍然以老鼠做實驗對象
10:52
it's probably a good idea to start thinking and discussing
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但我哋確實應該開始思考同討論
10:55
about the possible ethical ramifications
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記憶控制帶嚟嘅道德爭議
10:58
of memory control.
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11:00
SR: Now, in the spirit of the third quote,
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史︰透過第三個留言
11:02
we want to tell you about a recent project that we've been
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我想話畀你哋聽一個
我哋最近喺實驗室開展嘅項目
我哋最近喺實驗室開展嘅項目
11:04
working on in lab that we've called Project Inception.
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叫「盜夢空間」
11:07
["They should make a movie about this. Where they plant ideas into peoples minds, so they can control them for their own personal gain. We'll call it: Inception."]
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[「佢哋應該整一部關於呢樣嘢嘅電影。當佢哋將記憶植入人嘅意識裏面，
佢哋就能夠控制人，從而達到個人利益。佢哋就能夠控制人，從而達到個人利益。
佢哋就能夠控制人，從而達到個人利益。佢哋就能夠控制人，從而達到個人利益。
11:10
So we reasoned that now that we can reactivate a memory,
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所以我哋開始諗
雖然我哋可以重啟一個記憶
11:14
what if we do so but then begin to tinker with that memory?
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但如果我哋唔小心
改造咗個記憶，咁點呢？
改造咗個記憶，咁點呢？
11:17
Could we possibly even turn it into a false memory?
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我哋會唔會將個記憶
變成一個錯誤嘅記憶？
變成一個錯誤嘅記憶？
11:20
XL: So all memory is sophisticated and dynamic,
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劉︰所有記憶都係複雜而且有動態變化
11:24
but if just for simplicity, let's imagine memory
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但我哋可以簡單將記憶當成係一齣電影
11:27
as a movie clip.
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11:28
So far what we've told you is basically we can control
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正如我哋一路所講嘅
我哋可以控制電影嘅播放掣
11:31
this "play" button of the clip
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11:33
so that we can play this video clip any time, anywhere.
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所以我哋可以隨時隨地播呢部電影
11:37
But is there a possibility that we can actually get
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但有冇可能我哋可以
進入大腦編輯呢部電影
進入大腦編輯呢部電影
11:40
inside the brain and edit this movie clip
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11:43
so that we can make it different from the original?
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令佢同原本有唔同？
11:46
Yes we can.
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係，我哋可以做到
11:48
Turned out that all we need to do is basically
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我哋需要做嘅只係
用我哋之前用過嘅激光
用我哋之前用過嘅激光
11:50
reactivate a memory using lasers just like we did before,
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重新啟動一個記憶
11:54
but at the same time, if we present new information
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但係如果我哋同時將新嘅資訊
擺落去舊嘅記憶當中
擺落去舊嘅記憶當中
11:58
and allow this new information to incorporate into this old memory,
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12:02
this will change the memory.
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舊嘅記憶會改變
12:04
It's sort of like making a remix tape.
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就好似整混合錄音咁
12:08
SR: So how do we do this?
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史︰咁我哋點樣做呢？
12:11
Rather than finding a fear memory in the brain,
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與其喺大腦搵到恐懼記憶
12:13
we can start by taking our animals,
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我哋可以喺動物裏面搵
12:14
and let's say we put them in a blue box like this blue box here
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即係我哋將動物放入
一個咁樣嘅藍色籠裡面
一個咁樣嘅藍色籠裡面
12:17
and we find the brain cells that represent that blue box
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我哋喺動物個腦裏面
搵返代表藍色籠嘅腦細胞
搵返代表藍色籠嘅腦細胞
12:20
and we trick them to respond to pulses of light
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然後我哋令呢啲腦細胞對光有反應
12:22
exactly like we had said before.
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同我哋之前做嘅一模一樣
12:24
Now the next day, we can take our animals and place them
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第二日，我哋可以將動物放入
一個佢哋從來冇遇過嘅紅色籠
一個佢哋從來冇遇過嘅紅色籠
12:26
in a red box that they've never experienced before.
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12:29
We can shoot light into the brain to reactivate
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我哋可以向佢哋大腦照射激光
重啟佢哋對藍色籠嘅記憶
重啟佢哋對藍色籠嘅記憶
12:31
the memory of the blue box.
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12:33
So what would happen here if, while the animal
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咁當動物諗返藍色籠嘅嘢時
12:35
is recalling the memory of the blue box,
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我哋對佢哋輕微電擊幾次，會點呢？
12:36
we gave it a couple of mild foot shocks?
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12:39
So here we're trying to artificially make an association
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我哋就嘗試人為咁
令藍色籠嘅記憶同電擊關連起嚟
令藍色籠嘅記憶同電擊關連起嚟
12:42
between the memory of the blue box
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12:44
and the foot shocks themselves.
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我哋想將兩樣嘢連埋一齊
12:45
We're just trying to connect the two.
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12:47
So to test if we had done so,
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為咗證實我哋成功
12:49
we can take our animals once again
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我哋再將老鼠放入藍色籠
12:50
and place them back in the blue box.
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12:52
Again, we had just reactivated the memory of the blue box
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我哋今次只係重啟老鼠對藍色籠嘅記憶
12:55
while the animal got a couple of mild foot shocks,
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但老鼠卻感覺到足部有微弱電擊
12:57
and now the animal suddenly freezes.
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然後佢哋突然靜止唔郁
12:59
It's as though it's recalling being mildly shocked in this environment
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所以就算實際上冇電擊都好
老鼠始終記返起被電擊
老鼠始終記返起被電擊
13:02
even though that never actually happened.
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因此，老鼠形成咗一個錯誤嘅記憶
13:05
So it formed a false memory,
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13:07
because it's falsely fearing an environment
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因為技術上嚟講
佢哋驚錯咗一個冇電擊嘅環境
佢哋驚錯咗一個冇電擊嘅環境
13:09
where, technically speaking,
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13:10
nothing bad actually happened to it.
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13:13
XL: So, so far we are only talking about
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劉︰目前為止，我哋只係討論咗
呢種用光控制嘅開掣
呢種用光控制嘅開掣
13:15
this light-controlled "on" switch.
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13:18
In fact, we also have a light-controlled "off" switch,
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其實我哋都有光控制嘅閂掣
13:21
and it's very easy to imagine that
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而且我哋可以好容易想像到
13:23
by installing this light-controlled "off" switch,
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通過安裝呢種光控制嘅閂掣
13:25
we can also turn off a memory, any time, anywhere.
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我哋可以隨時隨地閂咗一個記憶
13:31
So everything we've been talking about today
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我哋今日所講嘅嘢
13:33
is based on this philosophically charged principle of neuroscience
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都係基於神經科學一條哲學性嘅原理
13:38
that the mind, with its seemingly mysterious properties,
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就係，思想睇起嚟好神秘
13:42
is actually made of physical stuff that we can tinker with.
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但佢實際上係由物質組成
兼可以俾我哋利用嘅嘢
兼可以俾我哋利用嘅嘢
13:46
SR: And for me personally,
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史︰我見到一個世界
13:47
I see a world where we can reactivate
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我哋可以重新啟動任何我哋鍾意嘅記憶
13:49
any kind of memory that we'd like.
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13:51
I also see a world where we can erase unwanted memories.
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我仲見到一個世界
我哋可以抹走我哋唔想要嘅記憶
13:54
Now, I even see a world where editing memories
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宜家，我甚至見到
記憶編輯已經成為現實中嘅一部分
13:56
is something of a reality,
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13:58
because we're living in a time where it's possible
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因為我哋生活嘅時代
13:59
to pluck questions from the tree of science fiction
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已經有可能將科幻小說裡邊嘅問題
14:02
and to ground them in experimental reality.
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通過實驗將佢哋帶到嚟現實世界
14:04
XL: Nowadays, people in the lab
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劉︰宜家，我哋實驗室嘅人員
同全世界嘅人員
同全世界嘅人員
14:06
and people in other groups all over the world
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14:08
are using similar methods to activate or edit memories,
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都用緊類似嘅方法啟動或者編輯記憶
14:12
whether that's old or new, positive or negative,
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無論嗰啲記憶係舊、新、正面、負面
14:16
all sorts of memories so that we can understand
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——總之所有類型嘅記憶
等我哋能夠了解記憶係點樣運作嘅
14:19
how memory works.
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14:20
SR: For example, one group in our lab
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史︰例如，我哋實驗室嘅一個團隊
14:22
was able to find the brain cells that make up a fear memory
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發現咗形成恐懼記憶嘅腦細胞
14:25
and converted them into a pleasurable memory, just like that.
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並將嗰啲腦細胞轉化成快樂記憶
就好似嗰個咁
14:28
That's exactly what I mean about editing these kinds of processes.
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嗰個就係我想講嘅編輯過程
14:31
Now one dude in lab was even able to reactivate
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宜家，實驗室人員
甚至可以喺雄性老鼠當中
甚至可以喺雄性老鼠當中
14:33
memories of female mice in male mice,
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啟動佢哋對雌性老鼠嘅記憶
14:35
which rumor has it is a pleasurable experience.
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有流傳話人員有好愉快嘅經歷
14:38
XL: Indeed, we are living in a very exciting moment
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劉︰我哋正生活喺一個好開心嘅時刻
14:42
where science doesn't have any arbitrary speed limits
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因為呢一刻科學除咗受制於
我哋嘅想像力之外，就再冇限制
我哋嘅想像力之外，就再冇限制
14:46
but is only bound by our own imagination.
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14:49
SR: And finally, what do we make of all this?
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史︰最後，我哋做到啲咩呢？
14:51
How do we push this technology forward?
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我哋點樣繼續發展呢一個技術？
14:53
These are the questions that should not remain
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呢啲問題唔應該剩係留返畀
實驗室嘅人解答
實驗室嘅人解答
14:55
just inside the lab,
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14:57
and so one goal of today's talk was to bring everybody
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我哋今日演講嘅目的就係令所有人
知道現代神經科學有可能嘅事
知道現代神經科學有可能嘅事
14:59
up to speed with the kind of stuff that's possible
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15:02
in modern neuroscience,
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15:03
but now, just as importantly,
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但宜家重要嘅係
令所有人都參與個討論
令所有人都參與個討論
15:05
to actively engage everybody in this conversation.
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15:08
So let's think together as a team about what this all means
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等我哋好似一個團隊咁一齊諗下
神經科學可以做到啲咩
神經科學可以做到啲咩
15:10
and where we can and should go from here,
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我哋可以點樣繼續往前走
15:13
because Xu and I think we all have
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因為劉同我都認為
我哋所有人面前都有一啲重大決定要做
15:15
some really big decisions ahead of us.
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史、劉︰多謝
15:17
Thank you.
XL: Thank you.
XL: Thank you.
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15:18
(Applause)
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（鼓掌）
ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Steve Ramirez - NeuroscientistWhen Steve Ramirez published his latest study in Science, it caused a media frenzy. Why? Because the paper was on implanting false memories in the brains of mice.
Why you should listen
Steve is a graduate student at MIT’s Brain and Cognitive Sciences department pursuing a Ph.D. in neuroscience. His work focuses on finding where single memories are located throughout the brain, genetically tricking the brain cells that house these memories to respond to brief pulses of light, and then using these same flickers of light to reactivate, erase and implant memories. The goals of his research are twofold: to figure out how the brain gives rise to the seemingly ephemeral process of memory, and to predict what happens when specific brain pieces breakdown to impair cognition. His work has been published in Science and covered by New Scientist, Discover, Scientific American, and Gizmodo.
Ramirez aims to be a professor who runs a lab that plucks questions from the tree of science fiction to ground them in experimental reality. He believes that a team-oriented approach to science makes research and teaching far more exciting. When he’s not tinkering with memories in the lab, Ramirez also enjoys running and cheering on every sports team in the city of Boston.
Steve Ramirez | Speaker | TED.com
Xu Liu - Neuroscientist
In his groundbreaking work, Xu Liu investigated how to activate and deactivate specific memories in mice.
Why you should listen
During his PhD, Xu Liu studied the mechanisms of learning and memory, using fruit flies as a model system. By changing the expression of certain genes in the fly brain, he generated smart flies that can learn many times faster than their peers. Using live imaging, he also detected learning-induced changes in the brain cells and observed memory formation inside the brain with light.
After graduation, he moved to MIT and joined Dr. Susumu Tonegawa's lab as a postdoctoral associate. He continued his pursuit of memory with light there. Instead of just watching memory formation, he developed a system in mice where one can not only identify and label cells in the brain for a particular memory, but also turn these cells on and off with light to activate this memory at will. This work was published in Science and has been covered by the media worldwide. Liu passed away in February 2015.
Xu Liu | Speaker | TED.com