TEDxDeExtinction
Michael Archer: How we'll resurrect the gastric brooding frog, the Tasmanian tiger
麥可亞庫色 (Michael Archer): 我們如何重現胃育溪蟾和塔斯馬尼亞虎的風采
Filmed:
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592,203 views
胃育溪蟾產下牠的卵就和其他青蛙一樣——但牠又隨即把卵吞下去以便孵化。直到三十年前絕種前，這件事確實存在過。古生物學家麥可亞庫色竭盡所能，使胃育溪蟾以及塔斯馬尼亞虎（俗稱袋狼）得以重現世人眼前。（攝於 TEDxDeExtinction）
Michael Archer - Paleontologist
Paleontologist Michael Archer is working to bring back his favorite extinct animal: the Tasmanian tiger. Full bio
Paleontologist Michael Archer is working to bring back his favorite extinct animal: the Tasmanian tiger. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
I do want to test this question we're all interested in:
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試問一個大家都有興趣的問題
00:15
Does extinction have to be forever?
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絕種這回事是否絕對是永久的呢?
00:18
I'm focused on two projects I want to tell you about.
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我想告訴你們兩個我所關注的計畫
00:21
One is the Thylacine Project.
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一個是關於袋狼
00:23
The other one is the Lazarus Project,
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一個是拉薩魯計劃
00:25
and that's focused on the gastric brooding frog.
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一個關於胃育溪蟾的計畫
00:27
And it would be a fair question to ask, well,
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大家可能會問
00:29
why have we focused on these two animals?
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為什麼我們要關注在這兩種動物上
00:32
Well, point number one, each of them
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首先是因為牠們能
00:35
represents a unique family of its own.
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代表各自所屬的特殊的科別
00:37
We've lost a whole family.
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我們已經失去這科別中所有的成員
00:39
That's a big chunk of the global genome gone.
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一個不小的全面性基因庫就此消失
00:41
I'd like it back.
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而我想要它再展從前之盛況
00:43
The second reason is that we killed these things.
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第二個原因是因為
我們就是這個問題的肇事者
我們就是這個問題的肇事者
00:47
In the case of the thylacine, regrettably,
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在袋狼的例子中，很不幸地
00:50
we shot every one that we saw. We slaughtered them.
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我們屠殺了牠們
00:54
In the case of the gastric brooding frog,
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而在胃育溪蟾的例子中
00:56
we may have "fungicided" it to death.
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我們可能讓"真菌"殺了牠們
00:59
There's a dreadful fungus that's sort of moving
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有一種散布於世界上的可怕真菌
01:01
through the world that's called the chytrid fungus,
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叫做"蛙壺菌"
01:03
and it's nailing frogs all over the world.
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它感染了遍佈世界各地的蛙類
01:06
We think that's probably what got this frog,
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我們認為這也許是胃育溪蟾滅絕的主因
01:08
and humans are spreading this fungus.
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而人類正是散播這些真菌的始作俑者
01:10
And this introduces a very important ethical point,
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而這引出了很重要的道德觀點
01:13
and I think you will have heard this many times
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我相信你們已經聽過很多次
01:15
when this topic comes up.
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當滅絕的議題被提出來
01:17
What I think is important is that,
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我認為重要的是
01:19
if it's clear that we exterminated these species,
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我們過去是否清楚地研究這些物種
01:23
then I think we not only have a moral obligation
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此外我認為我們不僅因為義務
01:26
to see what we can do about it, but I think we've got
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看看我們還能做什麼，只要我們有能力
01:28
a moral imperative to try to do something, if we can.
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我們有道德上的責任必須試著做些什麼
01:32
Okay. Let me talk to you about the Lazarus Project.
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那我們來談談拉魯薩計畫
01:35
It's a frog. And you think, frog.
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這是青蛙，是的，青蛙
01:38
Yeah, but this was not just any frog.
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但卻不是一般的青蛙
01:41
Unlike a normal frog, which lays its eggs in the water
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不像一般的青蛙只是把蛋產在水裡
01:44
and goes away and wishes its froglets well,
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然後就任其生長
01:47
this frog swallowed its fertilized eggs,
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胃育溪蟾會把受精卵
01:50
swallowed them into the stomach where it should be having food,
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吞到本來應該要裝滿食物胃中
01:54
didn't digest the eggs,
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卻不消化這些蛋
01:56
and turned its stomach into a uterus.
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而把胃當成子宮
01:59
In the stomach, the eggs went on to develop into tadpoles,
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蛋便在胃裡發育成蝌蚪
02:02
and in the stomach, the tadpoles went on to develop into frogs,
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並且就在胃裡長成幼蛙
02:06
and they grew in the stomach until eventually
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他們在胃中長大直到
02:09
the poor old frog was at risk of bursting apart.
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可憐的母蛙冒著被撐破的危險
02:12
It has a little cough and a hiccup, and out comes
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在咳嗽或打嗝時使得
02:14
sprays of little frogs.
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幼蛙被噴出
02:16
Now, when biologists saw this, they were agog.
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現在，當生物學家看到這時
他們感到無比的震撼
他們感到無比的震撼
02:19
They thought, this is incredible.
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紛紛不敢置信
02:20
No animal, let alone a frog, has been known to do this,
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除了青蛙之外，從來沒有動物能做到這件事
02:24
to change one organ in the body into another.
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改變一個器官的功能
02:26
And you can imagine the medical world went nuts over this as well.
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可想而知醫界限入瘋狂
02:30
If we could understand how that frog is managing
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如果我們能夠了解
胃育溪蟾的胃如何運作
胃育溪蟾的胃如何運作
02:33
the way its tummy works, is there information
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那麼將會有許多資訊
02:36
here that we need to understand or could usefully use
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我們必須盡一步了解甚至運用
02:39
to help ourselves?
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來幫助更多人
02:41
Now, I'm not suggesting we want to raise our babies in our stomach,
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我並不是說要把嬰兒養在胃裡
02:44
but I am suggesting it's possible we might want
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而是我們可能可以了解
02:46
to manage gastric secretion in the gut.
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胃在內臟裡的分泌物
02:48
And just as everybody got excited about it, bang!
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當大家都對此感到興奮時，碰
02:51
It was extinct.
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胃育溪蟾絕種了
02:53
I called up my friend, Professor Mike Tyler
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我打給我朋友，邁克泰勒教授
02:56
in the University of Adelaide.
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在阿德雷得大學
02:57
He was the last person who had this frog,
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他是最後一個曾有這種青蛙的人
03:00
a colony of these things, in his lab.
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在他的實驗室中曾有ㄧ群這種青蛙
03:02
And I said, "Mike, by any chance -- "
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我說"麥克，有無可能
03:04
this was 30 or 40 years ago —
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這是30到40年前的事
03:05
"by any chance had you kept any frozen tissue of this frog?"
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有無可能你還留著胃育溪蟾的組織
03:09
And he thought about it, and he went to his deep freezer,
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他想了想，到了他那負二十度
03:12
minus 20 degrees centigrade,
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的大冰箱
03:14
and he poured through everything in the freezer,
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把所有東西都拿出來
03:15
and there in the bottom was a jar
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在最底層是一個罐子
03:17
and it contained tissues of these frogs.
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裝著一些青蛙的組織
03:20
This was very exciting, but there was no reason
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這非常令人振奮
但我們確沒有理由確信這會行的通
03:23
why we should expect that this would work,
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03:25
because this tissue had not had any antifreeze put in it,
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因為這組織沒有摻入防凍劑
03:29
cryoprotectants, to look after it when it was frozen.
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低溫防護劑，確保冷凍樣品的狀況
03:33
And normally, when water freezes, as you know, it expands,
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普遍來說，水結冰時會膨脹
03:35
and the same thing happens in a cell.
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一樣的事也發生在細胞中
03:37
If you freeze tissues, the water expands,
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若將組織冰動，其中的水會膨脹
03:39
damages or bursts the cell walls.
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傷害或撐破細胞壁
03:41
Well, we looked at the tissue under the microscope.
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當我們從顯微鏡下看組織時
03:44
It actually didn't look bad. The cell walls looked intact.
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竟然看起來不差。細胞壁完好無缺
03:46
So we thought, let's give it a go.
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於是我們想，試試無妨
03:48
What we did is something called
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我們所作的稱為
03:50
somatic cell nuclear transplantation.
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體細胞核移植
03:53
We took the eggs of a related species, a living frog,
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我們拿了一隻活的，有血緣關係的卵
03:57
and we inactivated the nucleus of the egg.
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然後使其核失去作用
04:00
We used ultraviolet radiation to do that.
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我們是用紫外光做到的
04:02
And then we took the dead nucleus from the dead tissue
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再把胃育溪蟾的核
從死去組織中抽出來
從死去組織中抽出來
04:06
of the extinct frog and we inserted those nuclei into that egg.
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注入失去核的活卵中
04:10
Now by rights, this is kind of like a cloning project,
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這樣看起來的確有點像
基因復製的過程
基因復製的過程
04:13
like what produced Dolly, but it's actually very different,
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像桃莉羊那樣，但其實是很不一樣的
04:16
because Dolly was live sheep into live sheep cells.
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因為桃莉是活體之間的移植
04:19
That was a miracle, but it was workable.
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那是一個行得通的奇蹟
04:21
What we're trying to do is take a dead nucleus from an extinct species
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而我們做的是取出
絕種物種的死細胞核
絕種物種的死細胞核
04:25
and put it into a completely different species and expect that to work.
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然後放進完全不同的物種
並期許牠能作用
並期許牠能作用
04:29
Well, we had no real reason to expect it would,
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我們是沒有理由期望牠會成功
04:31
and we tried hundreds and hundreds of these.
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在試了幾百次後
04:34
And just last February, the last time we did these trials,
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就在去年二月，最後ㄧ次的試驗
04:37
I saw a miracle starting to happen.
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我看到了奇蹟的發生
04:40
What we found was, most of these eggs didn't work,
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大部份的卵儘管不能作用
04:44
but then suddenly one of them began to divide.
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卻有一個突然開始分裂了
04:47
That was so exciting. And then the egg divided again.
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當它又分裂時著實令人興奮
04:50
And then again. And pretty soon, we had
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接著它又不斷地分裂，很快地我們有了一個
04:53
early stage embryos with hundreds of cells forming those.
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以數百個細胞組成的早期胚胎
04:57
We even DNA tested some of these cells,
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我們甚至對一些細胞進行DNA測試
04:59
and the DNA of the extinct frog is in those cells.
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的確在那些細胞中
含有胃育溪蟾的DNA
含有胃育溪蟾的DNA
05:04
So we're very excited. This is not a tadpole.
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我們感到非常興奮。那還不是蝌蚪
05:06
It's not a frog. But it's a long way along the journey
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也還不是青蛙。但它是一個讓絕種的胃育溪蟾
05:10
to producing, or bringing back, an extinct species.
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起死回生的偉大旅程
05:13
And this is news. We haven't announced this publicly before.
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這可是一個我們從未宣布的大新聞
05:15
We're excited. We've got to get past this point.
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對於將跨入令一個不同的階段
我們感到鼓舞
我們感到鼓舞
05:19
We now want this ball of cells to start to gastrulate,
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我們期望這團細胞球體
能進入原腸胚階段
能進入原腸胚階段
05:22
to turn in so that it will produce the other tissues.
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以繼續繁殖其他組織
05:25
It'll go on and produce a tadpole and then a frog.
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最後將成為蝌蚪然後是青蛙
05:28
Watch this space. I think we're going to have this frog
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看看這空間，我相信我們能
05:31
hopping glad to be back in the world again.
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讓胃育溪蟾在這裡活潑的跳來跳去
05:33
Thank you. (Applause)
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謝謝
05:39
We haven't done it yet, but keep those applause ready.
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我們還沒做到，但那些掌聲將來會用到的
05:42
The second project I want to talk to you about is the Thylacine Project.
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另一個計畫是袋狼的計劃
05:47
The thylacine looks a bit, to most people, like a dog,
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牠對大多數的人來說
看起來有點像一隻狗
看起來有點像一隻狗
05:50
or maybe like a tiger, because it has stripes.
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或老虎，因為牠有斑紋
05:52
But it's not related to any of those.
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但牠跟那些一點關係都沒有
05:54
It's a marsupial. It raised its young in a pouch,
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牠是有袋類。從小在袋中長大
05:57
like a koala or a kangaroo would do,
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就像無尾熊或袋鼠
05:59
and it has a long history, a long, fascinating history,
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而牠有一個可以追溯到2500萬年前
06:05
that goes back 25 million years.
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久遠而美好的歷史
06:07
But it's also a tragic history.
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但那卻也是一個悲慘的歷史
06:10
The first one that we see occurs in the ancient rainforests
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第一件事是發生在2500萬年前
06:14
of Australia about 25 million years ago,
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澳洲的古雨林裡
06:16
and the National Geographic Society is helping us
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國家地理協會幫忙我們
06:19
to explore these fossil deposits. This is Riversleigh.
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去探勘化石沉積物。這裡是 Riverleigh
06:23
In those fossil rocks are some amazing animals.
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在化石中有些令人驚艷的動物
06:26
We found marsupial lions.
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我們找到有袋的獅子
06:28
We found carnivorous kangaroos.
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肉食性的袋鼠
06:31
It's not what you usually think about as a kangaroo,
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並不是平常我們所見
06:32
but these are meat-eating kangaroos.
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而是真的吃肉的袋鼠
06:34
We found the biggest bird in the world,
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還有全世界最大的鳥類
06:37
bigger than that thing that was in Madagascar,
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比馬達加斯加的還大
06:39
and it too was a flesh-eater. It was a giant, weird duck.
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牠也是一種巨大而奇怪的肉食性鴨子
06:43
And crocodiles were not behaving at that time either.
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連鱷魚當時的行為都是不太一樣的
06:45
You think of crocodiles as doing their ugly thing,
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你也許認為鱷魚就是髒髒的
06:48
sitting in a pool of water.
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待在水裡
06:49
These crocodiles were actually out on the land
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牠們其實是在陸地上的
06:52
and they were even climbing trees and jumping on prey
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甚至爬到樹上然後
06:55
on the ground.
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撲到獵物身上
06:57
We had, in Australia, drop crocs. They really do exist.
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這種會跳下來的鱷魚確實存在過，就在澳洲
07:02
But what they were dropping on was not only
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而牠們撲倒的其中一種生物
07:04
other weird animals but also thylacines.
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便是袋狼
07:07
There were five different kinds of thylacines in those ancient forests,
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在那原始林中有五種不同的袋狼
07:10
and they ranged from great big ones to middle-sized ones
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從極大的到中型的
07:15
to one that was about the size of a chihuahua.
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到小型如吉娃娃狗的尺寸
07:19
Paris Hilton would have been able to carry
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連Paris Hilton都放一隻
07:20
one of these things around in a little handbag,
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在小手提包中帶著走
07:23
until a drop croc landed on her.
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直到一隻鱷魚飛撲在她身上
07:25
At any rate, it was a fascinating place,
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無論如何，那是個令人驚奇的地方
07:27
but unfortunately, Australia didn't stay this way.
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但不幸地，澳洲並未繼續保持下去
07:30
Climate change has affected the world for a long period of time,
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氣候變遷已經影響這個世界好一陣子了
07:33
and gradually, the forests disappeared,
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而雨林日漸消失
07:36
the country began to dry out,
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氣候逐漸乾燥
07:38
and the number of kinds of thylacines began to decline,
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袋狼數量也隨之銳減
07:40
until by five million years ago, only one left.
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到了五百萬年前只剩下一隻
07:43
By 10,000 years ago, they had disappeared
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一萬年前在新幾內亞
07:45
from New Guinea, and unfortunately
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絕種了，並且不幸地
07:49
by 4,000 years ago, somebodies,
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四千年前
07:52
we don't know who this was, introduced dingoes --
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有不知名的人把澳洲野犬
07:55
this is a very archaic kind of a dog — into Australia.
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一種古代的狗，引進澳洲
07:58
And as you can see, dingoes are very similar
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如你所見
08:00
in their body form to thylacines.
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身形上兩者非常相似
08:03
That similarity meant they probably competed.
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也就是說牠們曾是競爭關係
08:06
They were eating the same kinds of foods.
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吃同樣的食物
08:07
It's even possible that aborigines were keeping
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甚至可能從前原住民曾經豢養
08:10
some of these dingoes as pets, and therefore
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一些澳洲野犬作為寵物，因此
08:13
they may have had an advantage in the battle for survival.
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牠們可能在生存活命上有優勢
08:16
All we know is, soon after the dingoes were brought in,
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我們所知道的是，當澳洲野犬被引進之後不久
08:18
thylacines were extinct in the Australian mainland,
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袋狼就從澳洲大陸上消失了
08:21
and after that they only survived in Tasmania.
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此後只有塔思馬尼雅島有袋狼的蹤跡
08:25
Then, unfortunately, the next sad part of the thylacine story
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然後，發生了袋狼生存史上另一件悲慘的事
08:28
is that Europeans arrived in 1788, and they brought
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就是歐洲人在1788年移入
08:31
with them the things they valued, and that included sheep.
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並帶來具經濟價值的事物，包括綿羊
08:35
They took one look at the thylacine in Tasmania,
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他們看了看島上的袋狼
08:39
and they thought, hang on, this is not going to work.
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並且心想，等等，這行不通的
08:42
That guy is going to eat all our sheep.
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袋狼將會吃掉所有的綿羊
08:44
That was not what happened, actually.
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但這件事其實從未發生過
08:46
Wild dogs did eat a few of the sheep, but the thylacine got a bad rap.
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野狗的確吃了一些綿羊
袋狼卻成了代罪羔羊
袋狼卻成了代罪羔羊
08:50
But immediately, the government said, that's it,
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但政府卻唐突的決定
08:53
let's get rid of them, and they paid people
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要除掉牠們，並獎賞
08:56
to slaughter every one that they saw.
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那些屠殺袋狼的人
08:58
By the early 1930s, 3,000 to 4,000 thylacines
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到1930、40年代，已有3000到4000隻
09:03
had been murdered. It was a disaster,
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被屠殺。這是一場災難
09:06
and they were about to hit the wall.
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而牠們就快遇到瓶頸了
09:08
Have a look at this bit of film footage.
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看看這部短片
09:11
It makes me very sad, because, while, it's a fascinating animal,
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一部使我很感傷的影片
09:15
and it's amazing to think that we had the technology to film it
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我們有這樣的科技去錄影
09:20
before it actually plunged off that cliff of extinction,
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但在把牠推入絕種深淵之前
09:24
we didn't, unfortunately, at this same time, have
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很不幸地，我們沒有同時
09:27
a molecule of concern about the welfare for this species.
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顧及這物種的存續
09:31
These are photos of the last surviving thylacine, Benjamin,
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這是一隻倖存的袋狼，Benjamin的照片
09:34
who was in the Beaumaris Zoo in Hobart.
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在Hobart的Beaumaris動物園裡
09:37
To add insult to injury, having swept this species
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雪上加霜的是，這隻袋狼竟死於疏於照料
09:40
nearly off the table, this animal, when it died of neglect,
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使這物種的滅絕成為必然
09:45
the keepers didn't let it into the hutch
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管理員並未在Hobart一個寒冷的夜晚
09:47
on a cold night in Hobart. It died of exposure,
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把牠安置在屋內，牠便因此死去
09:51
and in the morning, when they found the body of Benjamin,
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當Benjamin的屍體在早上被發現時
09:53
they still cared so little for this animal
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也並未引起太多關注
09:56
that they threw the body in the dump.
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他們把牠的屍體丟到垃圾場了
10:00
Does it have to stay this way?
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事情真的必須這樣嗎？
10:03
In 1990, I was in the Australian Museum.
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1990年，我在澳洲的博物館
10:06
I was fascinated by thylacines. I've always been obsessed with these animals.
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被袋狼深深地吸引了，我總是被動物吸引
10:09
And I was studying skulls, trying to figure out
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而我研究頭骨，想了解
10:11
their relationships to other sorts of animals,
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袋狼跟其他物種之間的關係
10:14
and I saw this jar, and here, in the jar,
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而我看到這個罐子
10:17
was a little girl thylacine pup, perhaps six months old.
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其中有一之母幼犬，大概六個月大
10:22
The guy who had found it and killed the mother
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殺了牠的人也殺了牠媽媽
10:24
had pickled the pup and they pickled it in alcohol.
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並撿起裝進酒精中
10:28
I'm a paleontologist, but I still knew alcohol was a DNA preservative.
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我是一個古生物學家，但我仍知到DNA保存法
10:32
But this was 1990, and I asked my geneticist friends,
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但當時是1990年，而我問我遺傳學家的朋友
10:36
couldn't we think about going into this pup
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我們可否在這隻狗中
10:38
and extracting DNA, if it's there,
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萃取DNA，如果有的話
10:41
and then somewhere down the line in the future,
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在將來的某一天
10:43
we'll use this DNA to bring the thylacine back?
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我們會利用DNA讓袋狼再現
10:45
The geneticists laughed. But this was six years before Dolly.
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那位遺傳學家笑了。但這是在桃莉羊事件的六年前
10:50
Cloning was science fiction. It had not happened.
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生物複製仍然是很科幻的。他還未發生過。
10:53
But then suddenly cloning did happen.
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但不久之後就突然成真了
10:56
And I thought, when I became director
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我便想，當我成為博物館的負責人時
10:58
of the Australian Museum, I'm going to give this a go.
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我要讓這個計畫成真
11:00
I put a team together.
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我組了一個小隊
11:02
We went into that pup to see what was in there,
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去研究幼犬的身體
11:05
and we did find thylacine DNA. It was a eureka moment.
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我們的確找到了DNA，這真是一個鼓舞人心的時刻。
11:08
We were very excited.
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我們很興奮
11:09
Unfortunately, we also found a lot of human DNA.
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不幸的是，我們也找到很多人類的DNA
11:13
Every old curator who'd been in that museum
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每一位館內的老管理員
11:16
had seen this wonderful specimen,
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都看過這玄妙的物種
11:17
put their hand in the jar, pulled it out and thought,
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把他們的手伸進去，伸出來並想
11:20
"Wow, look at that," plop, dropped it back in the jar,
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"哇，瞧瞧這" 然後又把它放回去
11:22
contaminating this specimen.
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因此汙染了它們
11:24
And that was a worry. If the goal here was to get the DNA out
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如果我們要萃取DNA讓袋狼復活的話
11:28
and use the DNA down the track to try to bring a thylacine back,
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這是一個很大的麻煩
11:31
what we didn't want happening when the information
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我們最不想要發生的事就是
11:34
was shoved into the machine and the wheel turned around
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1929
把遺傳訊息放入複製機器然後開始運作
11:36
and the lights flashed, was to have a wizened old
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指示燈一閃一滅，從機器另一端跑出來的是
11:38
horrible curator pop out the other end of the machine. (Laughter)
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一個又皺又老又可怕的管理員(笑)
11:42
It would've kept the curator very happy,
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這可能會讓老管理員們很開心
11:44
but it wasn't going to keep us happy.
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但對我們來說卻不會
11:45
So we went back to these specimens and we started digging around,
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我們繼續找尋我們想要的答案
11:49
and particularly we looked into the teeth of skulls,
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我們特別檢查在頭骨中的牙齒部分
11:52
hard parts where humans had not been able to get their fingers,
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一個比較硬的部分，人手沒有汙染的地方
11:55
and we found much better quality DNA.
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我們找到了品質比較好的DNA
11:57
We found nuclear mitochondrial genes. It's there.
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就在那裏，我們找到了核的粒腺體基因
12:00
So we got it.
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我們做到了
12:01
Okay. What could we do with this stuff?
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那麼，我們究竟可以用這些東西來做什麼呢？
12:04
Well, George Church in his book, "Regenesis,"
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首先，George Church 《再生》這本書中
12:06
has mentioned many of the techniques that are rapidly advancing
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提到這方面技術的進展
12:09
to work with fragmented DNA.
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專門討論這些DNA
12:11
We would hope that we'll be able to get that DNA back
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我們希望能尋回DNA
12:14
into a viable form, and then, much like we've done with the Lazarus Project,
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善加利用，然後就像我們在拉薩魯計畫所做的
12:18
get that stuff into an egg of a host species.
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放入一個寄宿物種的卵
12:21
It has to be a different species.
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牠必須是一個不一樣的物種
12:23
What could it be? Why couldn't it be a Tasmanian devil?
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這宿主可能是什麼呢？
為何不能是塔斯馬尼亞袋獾？
為何不能是塔斯馬尼亞袋獾？
12:26
They're related distantly to thylacines.
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牠們是和袋狼有關的物種呀
12:28
And then the Tasmanian devil is going to pop
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塔斯馬尼亞袋獾就會生出一隻
12:30
a thylacine out the south end.
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來自南端的袋狼
12:33
Critics of this project say, hang on.
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但是批評這計畫的人說，等等
12:36
Thylacine, Tasmanian devil? That's going to hurt.
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袋狼和袋獾? 牠們會彼此傷害吧
12:40
No, it's not. These are marsupials.
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但其實牠們不會，因為牠們是有袋物種
12:43
They give birth to babies that are the size of a jelly bean.
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牠們生下的小寶寶跟雷根糖一樣大
12:45
That Tasmanian devil's not even going to know it gave birth.
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牠們甚至不會知道自己要生產了
12:49
It is, shortly, going to think it's got the ugliest
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不久後袋獾只會覺得牠生下了
12:52
Tasmanian devil baby in the world,
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全世界最醜的袋獾寶寶
12:53
so maybe it'll need some help to keep it going.
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所以也許牠仍需要一些幫助
讓事情順利發展
讓事情順利發展
12:58
Andrew Pask and his colleagues have demonstrated
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Andrew Pask 和他的同事們證明了
13:00
this might not be a waste of time.
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這並非在浪費時間
13:02
And it's sort of in the future, we haven't got there yet,
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在未來是很有潛力的，我們還有一段路要走
13:04
but it's the kind of thing we want to think about.
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但是這件是我們要去思考的
13:06
They took some of this same pickled thylacine DNA
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他們拿了一些袋狼的DNA
13:10
and they spliced it into a mouse genome,
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然後插入老鼠的基因體
13:13
but they put a tag on it so that anything
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並且標定這些基因
13:16
that this thylacine DNA produced
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如此一來所有這隻袋狼DNA產生的東西
13:18
would appear blue-green in the mouse baby.
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在幼鼠中會發出藍綠光
13:22
In other words, if thylacine tissues were being produced
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換句話說，如果有由袋狼DNA生出的
13:24
by the thylacine DNA, it would be able to be recognized.
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袋狼組織，就可以被分辨出來
13:27
When the baby popped up, it was filled with blue-green tissues.
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當幼鼠出生時，牠全身充滿了藍綠色的組織
13:31
And that tells us if we can get that genome back together,
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這告訴我們，假如我們可以重獲袋狼基因體
13:34
get it into a live cell, it's going to produce thylacine stuff.
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把基因體送進一個活細胞中
這細胞將會製造屬於袋狼的東西
這細胞將會製造屬於袋狼的東西
13:39
Is this a risk?
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這很冒險嗎？
13:41
You've taken the bits of one animal
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你拿了這動物的一部分
13:43
and you've mixed them into the cell of a different kind of an animal.
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然後把牠們送入別的動物的細胞
13:45
Are we going to get a Frankenstein?
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我們想要得到一個科學怪人嗎？
13:47
You know, some kind of weird hybrid chimera?
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你知道的，那種奇怪的混合拼裝體
13:50
And the answer is no.
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答案當然不是的
13:51
If the only nuclear DNA that goes into this hybrid cell
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如果進到這複合細胞
13:55
is thylacine DNA, that's the only thing that can pop out
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只有袋狼的核DNA，唯一會從袋獾那而跑出來的
13:57
the other end of the devil.
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只有袋狼
14:00
Okay, if we can do this, could we put it back?
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好，如果我們做得到這件事
那我們可以把袋狼放回自然界中嗎?
那我們可以把袋狼放回自然界中嗎?
14:04
This is a key question for everybody.
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這是一個很重要的問題
14:05
Does it have to stay in a laboratory,
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牠是否一定得待在實驗室裡
14:07
or could we put it back where it belongs?
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或事我們可以把它放回屬於牠的地方?
14:09
Could we put it back in the throne of the king of beasts
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讓牠重新變回塔斯馬尼亞島中
14:11
in Tasmania where it belongs, restore that ecosystem?
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的百獸之王，並重建生態系統
14:14
Or has Tasmania changed so much
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還是塔斯馬尼亞島已改變太多
14:17
that that's no longer possible?
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無法再復原了?
14:18
I've been to Tasmania. I've been to many of the areas
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我曾去過塔斯馬尼亞，以及其他
14:21
where the thylacines were common.
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袋狼曾經很常見的地方
14:23
I've even spoken to people, like Peter Carter here,
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我曾經跟許多人說，譬如Peter Carter
14:26
who when I spoke to him was 90 years old,
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當我和他談話時他已經90歲了
14:28
but in 1926, this man and his father and his brother
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但1926年時，他曾經和他的哥哥和父親
14:32
caught thylacines. They trapped them.
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抓到一些袋狼 他們困住袋狼
14:35
And it just, when I spoke to this man,
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當我在和他說話時
14:37
I was looking in his eyes and thinking,
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我看著他的眼神並且想像
14:39
behind those eyes is a brain
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這眼神背後隱含著
14:42
that has memories of what thylacines feel like,
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他對袋狼的記憶
14:46
what they smelled like, what they sounded like.
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袋狼的味道，聲音
14:48
He led them around on a rope.
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他利用繩子誘引牠們
14:50
He has personal experiences
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他的親身經歷
14:52
that I would give my left leg to have in my head.
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是我夢寐以求想要得到的
14:55
We'd all love to have this sort of thing happen.
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我們都想要讓這樣的事情成真
14:58
Anyway, I asked Peter, by any chance,
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於是，我問Peter，如果有任何機會
15:00
could he take us back to where he caught those thylacines.
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他是否能帶我們回到他抓袋狼的地方
15:02
My interest was in whether the environment had changed.
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我對於環境是否有改變有很大的興趣
15:05
He thought hard. I mean, it was nearly 80 years before this
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他覺得很困難，我的意思是，畢竟他在那小屋的事
15:08
that he'd been at this hut.
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已經是80年前了
15:09
At any rate, he led us down this bush track,
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不論如何，他帶我們到下面的小路
15:11
and there, right where he remembered, was the hut,
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而那裏，他所記得之處，曾經是那間小屋子
15:15
and tears came into his eyes.
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他流下了眼淚
15:17
He looked at the hut. We went inside.
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他看著那個小屋，我們進到了屋裡
15:19
There were the wooden boards on the sides of the hut
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在屋子的旁邊有一些木板
15:21
where he and his father and his brother had slept at night.
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是他和他的父親以及哥哥
以前晚上睡的地方
以前晚上睡的地方
15:24
And he told me, as it all was flooding back in memories.
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他告訴我們，像所有的記憶突然泉湧而上
15:26
He said, "I remember the thylacines going around the hut
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他說 "我記得袋狼們就在這小屋的周圍
15:29
wondering what was inside," and he said
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想著屋子裡到底有什麼"
15:32
they made sounds like "Yip! Yip! Yip!"
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他們發出"Yip Yip Yip' 的叫聲
15:34
All of these are parts of his life and what he remembers.
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這些都是他所記得的一部分人生
15:37
And the key question for me was to ask Peter,
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但有一個很重要的問題我想問Peter
15:41
has it changed? And he said no.
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"那些事情改變了嗎?' 答案是否定的
15:42
The southern beech forests surrounded his hut
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南海灘的樹林包圍了他的小屋
15:44
just like it was when he was there in 1926.
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就像1926年時的情景
15:47
The grasslands were sweeping away.
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到處都是草地
15:49
That's classic thylacine habitat.
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也是袋狼習於生活的地方
15:51
And the animals in those areas were the same
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其實這些地方並無太大改變
15:53
that were there when the thylacine was around.
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生態環境跟以前有袋狼時差不多
15:55
So could we put it back? Yes.
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所以我們能把袋狼放回去嗎？我想是可以的
15:58
Is that all we would do? And this is an interesting question.
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但我們真的要這做嗎？
這是一個有趣的問題
這是一個有趣的問題
16:01
Sometimes you might be able to put it back,
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也許你能把牠放回去
16:04
but is that the safest way to make sure
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但這真的是最好的
確保牠不會再絕種的方法嗎？
確保牠不會再絕種的方法嗎？
16:06
it never goes extinct again, and I don't think so.
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我不這麼認為
16:09
I think gradually, as we see species all around the world,
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我想逐漸地，當我們看著全世界的動物
16:12
it's kind of a mantra that wildlife is increasingly
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這有點像是一種詛咒
16:15
not safe in the wild.
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野生動物在野外會越來越不安全
16:16
We'd love to think it is, but we know it isn't.
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我們想這麼覺得，但其實是時並不是
16:18
We need other parallel strategies coming online.
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我們需要別的計畫共同推動
16:21
And this one interests me.
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而這個計畫對我來說很有趣
16:22
Some of the thylacines that were being turned into zoos,
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有些袋狼被送進動物園
16:25
sanctuaries, even at the museums,
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避難所，甚至博物館
16:27
had collar marks on the neck.
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這些地方都把牠們套上頸圈
16:29
They were being kept as pets,
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當作寵物養
16:31
and we know a lot of bush tales and memories
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我們聽過人們有很多傳說和回憶
16:34
of people who had them as pets,
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他們曾經把袋狼拿來當寵物養
16:35
and they say they were wonderful, friendly.
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他們都覺得袋狼很棒，很友善
16:38
This particular one came in out of the forest
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這隻奇特的袋狼從森林裡跑來這裡
16:41
to lick this boy and curled up
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舔這個男孩然後蜷身
16:43
around the fireplace to go to sleep. A wild animal.
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然後蜷身在火爐旁睡著
這是一隻野生動物
這是一隻野生動物
16:46
And I'd like to ask the question, all of --
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我想在這問一個
16:49
we need to think about this.
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我們必須思考的問題
16:50
If it had not been illegal to keep these thylacines as pets
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如果養袋狼不曾是非法的話
16:55
then, would the thylacine be extinct now?
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那袋狼現在會絕種嗎？
16:58
And I'm positive it wouldn't.
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我很肯定是不會的
17:00
We need to think about this in today's world.
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在現今的世界我們必須好好地想一想
17:03
Could it be that getting animals close to us
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把動物養在身邊
17:06
so that we value them, maybe they won't go extinct?
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然後疼愛牠，這樣牠們就不會絕種了是嗎？
17:09
And this is such a critical issue for us,
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這是一個至關重要的問題
17:11
because if we don't do that, we're going to watch
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因為如果我們不這麼做
17:13
more of these animals plunge off the precipice.
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我們會看到更多的物種
在絕種的懸崖邊掙扎
在絕種的懸崖邊掙扎
17:17
As far as I'm concerned, this is why
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就我所知，這也是
17:19
we're trying to do these kinds of de-extinction projects.
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為什麼我們要做這些計畫的原因之一
17:22
We are trying to restore that balance of nature
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我們想重建我們曾經打亂的
17:25
that we have upset.
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大自然的平衡
17:27
Thank you.
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謝謝
17:28
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Michael Archer - PaleontologistPaleontologist Michael Archer is working to bring back his favorite extinct animal: the Tasmanian tiger.
Why you should listen
Why do fascinating extinct species have to stay that way? Paleontologist Michael Archer says: They don't! He's working to de-extinct the gastric brooding frog and the thylacine, also known as the Tasmanian tiger. These animals could have taught us humans a lot, says Archer, but we wiped them out. A severe missed opportunity.
Archer is a professor in the School of Biological, Earth and Environmental Sciences at the University of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia. Archer's research includes: conservation through sustainable use of native resources -- including having native animals as pets -- and trying to bring extinct species back into the world of the living. Previously Archer served as the Curator of Mammals at the Queensland Museum and Director of the Australian Museum in Sydney.
Michael Archer | Speaker | TED.com