TED2014
Edward Snowden: Here's how we take back the Internet
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Appearing by telepresence robot, Edward Snowden speaks at TED2014 about surveillance and Internet freedom. The right to data privacy, he suggests, is not a partisan issue, but requires a fundamental rethink of the role of the internet in our lives — and the laws that protect it. "Your rights matter," he says, "because you never know when you're going to need them." Chris Anderson interviews, with special guest Tim Berners-Lee.
Edward Snowden - Whistleblower
In 2013 Edward Snowden leaked thousands of classified American National Security Agency documents, sparking a global conversation about citizens' rights to privacy on the Internet. Full bio
In 2013 Edward Snowden leaked thousands of classified American National Security Agency documents, sparking a global conversation about citizens' rights to privacy on the Internet. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
Chris Anderson: The rights of citizens,
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the future of the Internet.
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So I would like to welcome to the TED stage
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the man behind those revelations,
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Ed Snowden.
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(Applause)
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Ed is in a remote location somewhere in Russia
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controlling this bot from his laptop,
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so he can see what the bot can see.
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Ed, welcome to the TED stage.
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What can you see, as a matter of fact?
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Edward Snowden: Ha, I can see everyone.
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This is amazing.
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(Laughter)
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CA: Ed, some questions for you.
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You've been called many things
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in the last few months.
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You've been called a whistleblower, a traitor,
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a hero.
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What words would you describe yourself with?
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ES: You know, everybody who is involved
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with this debate
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has been struggling over me and my personality
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and how to describe me.
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But when I think about it,
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this isn't the question that
we should be struggling with.
we should be struggling with.
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Who I am really doesn't matter at all.
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If I'm the worst person in the world,
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you can hate me and move on.
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What really matters here are the issues.
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What really matters here is the
kind of government we want,
kind of government we want,
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the kind of Internet we want,
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the kind of relationship between people
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and societies.
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And that's what I'm hoping
the debate will move towards,
the debate will move towards,
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and we've seen that increasing over time.
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If I had to describe myself,
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I wouldn't use words like "hero."
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I wouldn't use "patriot," and I wouldn't use "traitor."
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I'd say I'm an American and I'm a citizen,
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just like everyone else.
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CA: So just to give some context
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for those who don't know the whole story --
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(Applause) —
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this time a year ago, you were stationed in Hawaii
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working as a consultant to the NSA.
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As a sysadmin, you had access
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to their systems,
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and you began revealing
certain classified documents
certain classified documents
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to some handpicked journalists
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leading the way to June's revelations.
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Now, what propelled you to do this?
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ES: You know,
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when I was sitting in Hawaii,
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and the years before, when I was
working in the intelligence community,
working in the intelligence community,
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I saw a lot of things that had disturbed me.
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We do a lot of good things
in the intelligence community,
in the intelligence community,
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things that need to be done,
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and things that help everyone.
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But there are also things that go too far.
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There are things that shouldn't be done,
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and decisions that were being made in secret
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without the public's awareness,
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without the public's consent,
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and without even our representatives in government
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having knowledge of these programs.
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When I really came to struggle with these issues,
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I thought to myself,
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how can I do this in the most responsible way,
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that maximizes the public benefit
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while minimizing the risks?
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And out of all the solutions that I could come up with,
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out of going to Congress,
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when there were no laws,
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there were no legal protections
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for a private employee,
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a contractor in intelligence like myself,
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there was a risk that I would be
buried along with the information
buried along with the information
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and the public would never find out.
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But the First Amendment of
the United States Constitution
the United States Constitution
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guarantees us a free press for a reason,
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and that's to enable an adversarial press,
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to challenge the government,
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but also to work together with the government,
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to have a dialogue and debate about how we can
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inform the public about matters of vital importance
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without putting our national security at risk.
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And by working with journalists,
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by giving all of my information
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back to the American people,
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rather than trusting myself to make
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the decisions about publication,
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we've had a robust debate
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with a deep investment by the government
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that I think has resulted in a benefit for everyone.
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And the risks that have been threatened,
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the risks that have been played up
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by the government
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have never materialized.
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We've never seen any evidence
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of even a single instance of specific harm,
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and because of that,
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I'm comfortable with the decisions that I made.
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CA: So let me show the audience
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a couple of examples of what you revealed.
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If we could have a slide up, and Ed,
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I don't know whether you can see,
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the slides are here.
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This is a slide of the PRISM program,
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and maybe you could tell the audience
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what that was that was revealed.
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ES: The best way to understand PRISM,
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because there's been a little bit of controversy,
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is to first talk about what PRISM isn't.
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Much of the debate in the U.S.
has been about metadata.
has been about metadata.
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They've said it's just metadata, it's just metadata,
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and they're talking about a specific legal authority
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called Section 215 of the Patriot Act.
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That allows sort of a warrantless wiretapping,
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mass surveillance of the entire country's
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phone records, things like that --
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who you're talking to,
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when you're talking to them,
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where you traveled.
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These are all metadata events.
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PRISM is about content.
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It's a program through which the government could
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compel corporate America,
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it could deputize corporate America
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to do its dirty work for the NSA.
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And even though some of
these companies did resist,
these companies did resist,
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even though some of them --
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I believe Yahoo was one of them —
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challenged them in court, they all lost,
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because it was never tried by an open court.
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They were only tried by a secret court.
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And something that we've seen,
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something about the PRISM program
that's very concerning to me is,
that's very concerning to me is,
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there's been a talking point in the U.S. government
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where they've said 15 federal judges
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have reviewed these programs
and found them to be lawful,
and found them to be lawful,
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but what they don't tell you
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is those are secret judges
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in a secret court
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based on secret interpretations of law
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that's considered 34,000 warrant requests
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over 33 years,
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and in 33 years only rejected
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11 government requests.
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These aren't the people that we want deciding
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what the role of corporate America
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in a free and open Internet should be.
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CA: Now, this slide that we're showing here
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shows the dates in which
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different technology companies, Internet companies,
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are alleged to have joined the program,
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and where data collection began from them.
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Now, they have denied collaborating with the NSA.
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How was that data collected by the NSA?
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ES: Right. So the NSA's own slides
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refer to it as direct access.
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What that means to an actual NSA analyst,
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someone like me who was working
as an intelligence analyst
as an intelligence analyst
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targeting, Chinese cyber-hackers,
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things like that, in Hawaii,
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is the provenance of that data
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is directly from their servers.
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It doesn't mean
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that there's a group of company representatives
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sitting in a smoky room with the NSA
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palling around and making back-room deals
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about how they're going to give this stuff away.
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Now each company handles it different ways.
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Some are responsible.
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Some are somewhat less responsible.
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But the bottom line is, when we talk about
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how this information is given,
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it's coming from the companies themselves.
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It's not stolen from the lines.
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But there's an important thing to remember here:
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even though companies pushed back,
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even though companies demanded,
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hey, let's do this through a warrant process,
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let's do this
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where we actually have some sort of legal review,
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some sort of basis for handing over
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these users' data,
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we saw stories in the Washington Post last year
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that weren't as well reported as the PRISM story
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that said the NSA broke in
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to the data center communications
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between Google to itself
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and Yahoo to itself.
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So even these companies that are cooperating
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in at least a compelled but hopefully lawful manner
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with the NSA,
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the NSA isn't satisfied with that,
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and because of that, we need our companies
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to work very hard
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to guarantee that they're going to represent
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the interests of the user, and also advocate
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for the rights of the users.
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And I think over the last year,
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we've seen the companies that are named
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on the PRISM slides
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take great strides to do that,
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and I encourage them to continue.
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CA: What more should they do?
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ES: The biggest thing that an Internet company
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in America can do today, right now,
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without consulting with lawyers,
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to protect the rights of users worldwide,
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is to enable SSL web encryption
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on every page you visit.
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The reason this matters is today,
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if you go to look at a copy of "1984" on Amazon.com,
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the NSA can see a record of that,
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the Russian intelligence service
can see a record of that,
can see a record of that,
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the Chinese service can see a record of that,
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the French service, the German service,
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the services of Andorra.
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They can all see it because it's unencrypted.
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The world's library is Amazon.com,
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but not only do they not
support encryption by default,
support encryption by default,
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you cannot choose to use encryption
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when browsing through books.
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This is something that we need to change,
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not just for Amazon, I don't mean to single them out,
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but they're a great example.
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All companies need to move
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to an encrypted browsing habit by default
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for all users who haven't taken any action
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or picked any special methods on their own.
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That'll increase the privacy and the rights
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that people enjoy worldwide.
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CA: Ed, come with me to this part of the stage.
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I want to show you the next slide here. (Applause)
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This is a program called Boundless Informant.
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What is that?
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ES: So, I've got to give credit to the NSA
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for using appropriate names on this.
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This is one of my favorite NSA cryptonyms.
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Boundless Informant
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is a program that the NSA hid from Congress.
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The NSA was previously asked by Congress,
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was there any ability that they had
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to even give a rough ballpark estimate
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of the amount of American communications
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that were being intercepted.
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They said no. They said, we don't track those stats,
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and we can't track those stats.
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We can't tell you how many communications
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we're intercepting around the world,
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because to tell you that would be
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to invade your privacy.
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Now, I really appreciate that sentiment from them,
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but the reality, when you look at this slide is,
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not only do they have the capability,
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the capability already exists.
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It's already in place.
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The NSA has its own internal data format
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that tracks both ends of a communication,
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and if it says,
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this communication came from America,
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they can tell Congress how
many of those communications
many of those communications
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they have today, right now.
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And what Boundless Informant tells us
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is more communications are being intercepted
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in America about Americans
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than there are in Russia about Russians.
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I'm not sure that's what an intelligence agency
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should be aiming for.
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CA: Ed, there was a story broken
in the Washington Post,
in the Washington Post,
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again from your data.
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The headline says,
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"NSA broke privacy rules
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thousands of times per year."
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Tell us about that.
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ES: We also heard in Congressional
testimony last year,
testimony last year,
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it was an amazing thing for someone like me
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who came from the NSA
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and who's seen the actual internal documents,
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knows what's in them,
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to see officials testifying under oath
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that there had been no abuses,
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that there had been no violations of the NSA's rules,
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when we knew this story was coming.
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But what's especially interesting about this,
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about the fact that the NSA has violated
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their own rules, their own laws
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thousands of times in a single year,
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including one event by itself,
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one event out of those 2,776,
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that affected more than 3,000 people.
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In another event, they intercepted
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all the calls in Washington, D.C., by accident.
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4212
12:43
What's amazing about this,
296
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2237
12:45
this report, that didn't get that much attention,
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12:48
is the fact that not only were there 2,776 abuses,
298
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4861
12:53
the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee,
299
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2141
12:55
Dianne Feinstein, had not seen this report
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3987
12:59
until the Washington Post contacted her
301
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3191
13:02
asking for comment on the report.
302
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2448
13:04
And she then requested a copy from the NSA
303
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13:06
and received it,
304
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1701
13:08
but had never seen this before that.
305
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2027
13:10
What does that say about the state of oversight
306
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2687
13:13
in American intelligence
307
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1737
13:14
when the chairman of the
Senate Intelligence Committee
Senate Intelligence Committee
308
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1788
13:16
has no idea that the rules are being broken
309
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2793
13:19
thousands of times every year?
310
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2160
13:21
CA: Ed, one response to this whole debate is this:
311
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3629
13:25
Why should we care about
312
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2665
13:27
all this surveillance, honestly?
313
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1468
13:29
I mean, look, if you've done nothing wrong,
314
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2152
13:31
you've got nothing to worry about.
315
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2784
13:34
What's wrong with that point of view?
316
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2292
13:36
ES: Well, so the first thing is,
317
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1648
13:38
you're giving up your rights.
318
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1713
13:39
You're saying hey, you know,
319
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1358
13:41
I don't think I'm going to need them,
320
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2372
13:43
so I'm just going to trust that, you know,
321
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1682
13:45
let's get rid of them, it doesn't really matter,
322
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2978
13:48
these guys are going to do the right thing.
323
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1974
13:50
Your rights matter
324
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1859
13:52
because you never know when
you're going to need them.
you're going to need them.
325
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2842
13:54
Beyond that, it's a part of our cultural identity,
326
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2282
13:57
not just in America,
327
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2132
13:59
but in Western societies
328
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1591
14:00
and in democratic societies around the world.
329
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2962
14:03
People should be able to pick up the phone
330
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2404
14:06
and to call their family,
331
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1454
14:07
people should be able to send a text message
332
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1999
14:09
to their loved ones,
333
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1128
14:10
people should be able to buy a book online,
334
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2454
14:13
they should be able to travel by train,
335
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1790
14:15
they should be able to buy an airline ticket
336
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2217
14:17
without wondering about how these events
337
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1737
14:19
are going to look to an agent of the government,
338
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3685
14:22
possibly not even your government
339
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2590
14:25
years in the future,
340
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1755
14:27
how they're going to be misinterpreted
341
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1740
14:28
and what they're going to think your intentions were.
342
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2784
14:31
We have a right to privacy.
343
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2074
14:33
We require warrants to be based on probable cause
344
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3618
14:37
or some kind of individualized suspicion
345
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2464
14:39
because we recognize that trusting anybody,
346
867636
4527
14:44
any government authority,
347
872163
1594
14:45
with the entirety of human communications
348
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3084
14:49
in secret and without oversight
349
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2433
14:51
is simply too great a temptation to be ignored.
350
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4844
14:56
CA: Some people are furious at what you've done.
351
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2559
14:58
I heard a quote recently from Dick Cheney
352
886677
2839
15:01
who said that Julian Assange was a flea bite,
353
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5892
15:07
Edward Snowden is the lion
that bit the head off the dog.
that bit the head off the dog.
354
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3422
15:11
He thinks you've committed
355
898830
1553
15:12
one of the worst acts of betrayal
356
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2292
15:14
in American history.
357
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2106
15:16
What would you say to people who think that?
358
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4356
15:23
ES: Dick Cheney's really something else.
359
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2205
15:25
(Laughter) (Applause)
360
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6797
15:32
Thank you. (Laughter)
361
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4902
15:37
I think it's amazing, because at the time
362
925378
2476
15:40
Julian Assange was doing some of his greatest work,
363
927854
3775
15:43
Dick Cheney was saying
364
931629
1436
15:45
he was going to end governments worldwide,
365
933065
2430
15:47
the skies were going to ignite
366
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2905
15:50
and the seas were going to boil off,
367
938400
2136
15:52
and now he's saying it's a flea bite.
368
940536
2218
15:54
So we should be suspicious about the same sort of
369
942754
2513
15:57
overblown claims of damage to national security
370
945267
4193
16:01
from these kind of officials.
371
949460
1685
16:03
But let's assume that these
people really believe this.
people really believe this.
372
951145
6849
16:10
I would argue that they have kind of
373
957994
2230
16:12
a narrow conception of national security.
374
960224
4370
16:16
The prerogatives of people like Dick Cheney
375
964594
3216
16:20
do not keep the nation safe.
376
967841
2981
16:23
The public interest is not always the same
377
970822
4033
16:27
as the national interest.
378
974855
2435
16:29
Going to war with people who are not our enemy
379
977290
3894
16:33
in places that are not a threat
380
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2130
16:35
doesn't make us safe,
381
983314
2167
16:37
and that applies whether it's in Iraq
382
985481
2167
16:39
or on the Internet.
383
987648
1767
16:41
The Internet is not the enemy.
384
989415
1523
16:43
Our economy is not the enemy.
385
990938
2025
16:45
American businesses, Chinese businesses,
386
992963
2286
16:47
and any other company out there
387
995249
4571
16:52
is a part of our society.
388
999820
2431
16:54
It's a part of our interconnected world.
389
1002251
2214
16:56
There are ties of fraternity that bond us together,
390
1004465
4445
17:01
and if we destroy these bonds
391
1008910
2668
17:03
by undermining the standards, the security,
392
1011578
3155
17:06
the manner of behavior,
393
1014733
2857
17:09
that nations and citizens all around the world
394
1017590
2951
17:12
expect us to abide by.
395
1020541
2377
17:15
CA: But it's alleged that you've stolen
396
1022918
3702
17:18
1.7 million documents.
397
1026620
1899
17:20
It seems only a few hundred of them
398
1028519
1827
17:22
have been shared with journalists so far.
399
1030346
2857
17:25
Are there more revelations to come?
400
1033203
3045
17:28
ES: There are absolutely more revelations to come.
401
1036248
2442
17:30
I don't think there's any question
402
1038690
2801
17:33
that some of the most important reporting
403
1041491
4247
17:37
to be done is yet to come.
404
1045738
4740
17:42
CA: Come here, because I want to ask you
405
1050478
2062
17:44
about this particular revelation.
406
1052540
1527
17:46
Come and take a look at this.
407
1054067
3022
17:49
I mean, this is a story which I think
for a lot of the techies in this room
for a lot of the techies in this room
408
1057089
3248
17:52
is the single most shocking thing
409
1060337
1739
17:54
that they have heard in the last few months.
410
1062076
2360
17:56
It's about a program called "Bullrun."
411
1064436
2625
17:59
Can you explain what that is?
412
1067061
3776
18:03
ES: So Bullrun, and this is again
413
1070837
1708
18:04
where we've got to thank the NSA for their candor,
414
1072545
7097
18:11
this is a program named after a Civil War battle.
415
1079642
4590
18:16
The British counterpart is called Edgehill,
416
1084232
1613
18:18
which is a U.K. civil war battle.
417
1085845
1475
18:19
And the reason that I believe they're named this way
418
1087320
2207
18:21
is because they target our own infrastructure.
419
1089527
3489
18:25
They're programs through which the NSA
420
1093016
2691
18:27
intentionally misleads corporate partners.
421
1095707
4215
18:32
They tell corporate partners that these
422
1099922
1882
18:34
are safe standards.
423
1101804
1675
18:35
They say hey, we need to work with you
424
1103479
2019
18:37
to secure your systems,
425
1105498
3653
18:41
but in reality, they're giving bad advice
426
1109151
3193
18:44
to these companies that makes them
427
1112344
1266
18:45
degrade the security of their services.
428
1113610
2295
18:48
They're building in backdoors that not only
429
1115905
2329
18:50
the NSA can exploit,
430
1118234
2358
18:52
but anyone else who has time and money
431
1120592
2521
18:55
to research and find it
432
1123113
2120
18:57
can then use to let themselves in
433
1125233
2134
18:59
to the world's communications.
434
1127367
1870
19:01
And this is really dangerous,
435
1129237
1770
19:03
because if we lose a single standard,
436
1131007
4184
19:07
if we lose the trust of something like SSL,
437
1135191
3059
19:10
which was specifically targeted
438
1138250
1482
19:11
by the Bullrun program,
439
1139732
2123
19:14
we will live a less safe world overall.
440
1141855
2668
19:16
We won't be able to access our banks
441
1144523
2107
19:18
and we won't be able to access commerce
442
1146630
5253
19:24
without worrying about people
monitoring those communications
monitoring those communications
443
1151883
2823
19:26
or subverting them for their own ends.
444
1154706
2178
19:29
CA: And do those same decisions also potentially
445
1156884
4069
19:33
open America up to cyberattacks
446
1160953
2986
19:36
from other sources?
447
1163939
3916
19:40
ES: Absolutely.
448
1167855
1465
19:41
One of the problems,
449
1169320
1732
19:43
one of the dangerous legacies
450
1171052
3450
19:46
that we've seen in the post-9/11 era,
451
1174502
3492
19:50
is that the NSA has traditionally worn two hats.
452
1177994
4237
19:54
They've been in charge of offensive operations,
453
1182231
1926
19:56
that is hacking,
454
1184157
1121
19:57
but they've also been in
charge of defensive operations,
charge of defensive operations,
455
1185278
2710
20:00
and traditionally they've always prioritized
456
1187988
2363
20:02
defense over offense
457
1190351
1387
20:03
based on the principle
458
1191738
1390
20:05
that American secrets are simply worth more.
459
1193128
2816
20:08
If we hack a Chinese business
460
1195944
2110
20:10
and steal their secrets,
461
1198054
1684
20:11
if we hack a government office in Berlin
462
1199738
2083
20:14
and steal their secrets,
463
1201821
2098
20:16
that has less value to the American people
464
1203919
3607
20:19
than making sure that the Chinese
465
1207526
2100
20:21
can't get access to our secrets.
466
1209626
2506
20:24
So by reducing the security of our communications,
467
1212132
4131
20:28
they're not only putting the world at risk,
468
1216263
2028
20:30
they're putting America at risk in a fundamental way,
469
1218291
2272
20:32
because intellectual property is the basis,
470
1220563
2671
20:35
the foundation of our economy,
471
1223234
1927
20:37
and if we put that at risk through weak security,
472
1225161
2258
20:39
we're going to be paying for it for years.
473
1227419
1629
20:41
CA: But they've made a calculation
474
1229048
1547
20:42
that it was worth doing this
475
1230595
2191
20:44
as part of America's defense against terrorism.
476
1232786
3539
20:48
Surely that makes it a price worth paying.
477
1236325
3612
20:52
ES: Well, when you look at the results
478
1239937
3887
20:56
of these programs in stopping terrorism,
479
1243824
2307
20:58
you will see that that's unfounded,
480
1246131
3750
21:02
and you don't have to take my word for it,
481
1249881
1919
21:04
because we've had the first open court,
482
1251800
3772
21:07
the first federal court that's reviewed this,
483
1255572
2369
21:10
outside the secrecy arrangement,
484
1257941
2796
21:12
called these programs Orwellian
485
1260737
1987
21:14
and likely unconstitutional.
486
1262724
2234
21:17
Congress, who has access
487
1264958
2739
21:19
to be briefed on these things,
488
1267697
1311
21:21
and now has the desire to be,
489
1269008
2982
21:24
has produced bills to reform it,
490
1271990
2407
21:26
and two independent White House panels
491
1274397
2885
21:29
who reviewed all of the classified evidence
492
1277282
2090
21:31
said these programs have never stopped
493
1279372
2633
21:34
a single terrorist attack
494
1282005
1761
21:35
that was imminent in the United States.
495
1283766
3503
21:39
So is it really terrorism that we're stopping?
496
1287269
3186
21:42
Do these programs have any value at all?
497
1290455
2331
21:44
I say no, and all three branches
498
1292786
2244
21:47
of the American government say no as well.
499
1295030
2432
21:49
CA: I mean, do you think there's a deeper motivation
500
1297462
1813
21:51
for them than the war against terrorism?
501
1299275
3285
21:54
ES: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you, say again?
502
1302560
1550
21:56
CA: Sorry. Do you think there's a deeper motivation
503
1304110
3000
21:59
for them other than the war against terrorism?
504
1307110
3879
22:03
ES: Yeah. The bottom line is that terrorism
505
1310989
2695
22:05
has always been what we in the intelligence world
506
1313684
2201
22:08
would call a cover for action.
507
1315885
3273
22:11
Terrorism is something that provokes
508
1319158
1925
22:13
an emotional response that allows people
509
1321083
2230
22:15
to rationalize authorizing powers and programs
510
1323313
4357
22:19
that they wouldn't give otherwise.
511
1327670
2444
22:22
The Bullrun and Edgehill-type programs,
512
1330114
2486
22:24
the NSA asked for these authorities
513
1332600
1717
22:26
back in the 1990s.
514
1334317
1937
22:28
They asked the FBI to go to
Congress and make the case.
Congress and make the case.
515
1336254
2990
22:31
The FBI went to Congress and did make the case.
516
1339244
2174
22:33
But Congress and the American people said no.
517
1341418
2565
22:36
They said, it's not worth the risk to our economy.
518
1343983
2411
22:38
They said it's worth too much damage
519
1346394
1919
22:40
to our society to justify the gains.
520
1348313
2687
22:43
But what we saw is, in the post-9/11 era,
521
1351000
4275
22:47
they used secrecy and they
used the justification of terrorism
used the justification of terrorism
522
1355275
3251
22:50
to start these programs in secret
523
1358526
1934
22:52
without asking Congress,
524
1360460
1812
22:54
without asking the American people,
525
1362272
2180
22:56
and it's that kind of government behind closed doors
526
1364452
2738
22:59
that we need to guard ourselves against,
527
1367190
2559
23:01
because it makes us less safe,
528
1369749
1250
23:03
and it offers no value.
529
1370999
1892
23:05
CA: Okay, come with me here for a sec,
530
1372891
1866
23:06
because I've got a more personal question for you.
531
1374757
2182
23:09
Speaking of terror,
532
1376939
2924
23:12
most people would find the
situation you're in right now
situation you're in right now
533
1379863
3957
23:16
in Russia pretty terrifying.
534
1383820
3296
23:19
You obviously heard what happened,
535
1387116
3587
23:22
what the treatment that Bradley Manning got,
536
1390703
2193
23:25
Chelsea Manning as now is,
537
1392896
2281
23:27
and there was a story in Buzzfeed saying that
538
1395177
2487
23:29
there are people in the intelligence community
539
1397664
1658
23:31
who want you dead.
540
1399322
2279
23:33
How are you coping with this?
541
1401601
1940
23:35
How are you coping with the fear?
542
1403541
1949
23:37
ES: It's no mystery
543
1405490
3004
23:40
that there are governments out
there that want to see me dead.
there that want to see me dead.
544
1408494
5648
23:46
I've made clear again and again and again
545
1414142
3410
23:49
that I go to sleep every morning
546
1417552
3366
23:53
thinking about what I can
do for the American people.
do for the American people.
547
1420918
4560
23:57
I don't want to harm my government.
548
1425478
3032
24:00
I want to help my government,
549
1428510
3263
24:03
but the fact that they are willing to
550
1431773
3808
24:07
completely ignore due process,
551
1435581
2320
24:10
they're willing to declare guilt
552
1437901
2708
24:12
without ever seeing a trial,
553
1440609
3286
24:16
these are things that we need to work against
554
1443895
2416
24:18
as a society, and say hey, this is not appropriate.
555
1446311
3578
24:22
We shouldn't be threatening dissidents.
556
1449889
1827
24:23
We shouldn't be criminalizing journalism.
557
1451716
3014
24:26
And whatever part I can do to see that end,
558
1454730
3319
24:30
I'm happy to do despite the risks.
559
1458049
3153
24:33
CA: So I'd actually like to get some feedback
560
1461202
1524
24:34
from the audience here,
561
1462726
1219
24:36
because I know there's widely differing reactions
562
1463945
2104
24:38
to Edward Snowden.
563
1466049
1941
24:40
Suppose you had the following two choices, right?
564
1467990
2288
24:42
You could view what he did
565
1470278
2806
24:45
as fundamentally a reckless act
566
1473084
1894
24:47
that has endangered America
567
1474978
3219
24:50
or you could view it as fundamentally a heroic act
568
1478197
3563
24:53
that will work towards America and the world's
569
1481760
3475
24:57
long-term good?
570
1485235
1387
24:58
Those are the two choices I'll give you.
571
1486622
3318
25:02
I'm curious to see who's willing to vote with
572
1489940
2155
25:04
the first of those,
573
1492095
1417
25:05
that this was a reckless act?
574
1493512
3409
25:09
There are some hands going up.
575
1496921
1655
25:10
Some hands going up.
576
1498576
1384
25:12
It's hard to put your hand up
577
1499960
1276
25:13
when the man is standing right here,
578
1501236
2111
25:15
but I see them.
579
1503347
1565
25:17
ES: I can see you. (Laughter)
580
1504912
2531
25:19
CA: And who goes with the second choice,
581
1507443
2261
25:21
the fundamentally heroic act?
582
1509704
1883
25:23
(Applause) (Cheers)
583
1511587
2647
25:26
And I think it's true to say that
there are a lot of people
there are a lot of people
584
1514234
2574
25:29
who didn't show a hand and I think
585
1516808
2225
25:31
are still thinking this through,
586
1519033
1710
25:32
because it seems to me that the debate around you
587
1520743
3458
25:36
doesn't split along traditional political lines.
588
1524201
3109
25:39
It's not left or right, it's not really about
589
1527310
2254
25:41
pro-government, libertarian, or not just that.
590
1529564
4122
25:45
Part of it is almost a generational issue.
591
1533686
2713
25:48
You're part of a generation that grew up
592
1536399
1808
25:50
with the Internet, and it seems as if
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you become offended at almost a visceral level
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when you see something done
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that you think will harm the Internet.
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Is there some truth to that?
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26:03
ES: It is. I think it's very true.
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This is not a left or right issue.
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Our basic freedoms, and when I say our,
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I don't just mean Americans,
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1547
26:15
I mean people around the world,
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2013
26:17
it's not a partisan issue.
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These are things that all people believe,
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2039
26:22
and it's up to all of us to protect them,
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and to people who have seen and enjoyed
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26:27
a free and open Internet,
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it's up to us to preserve that liberty
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26:32
for the next generation to enjoy,
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1905
26:34
and if we don't change things,
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26:36
if we don't stand up to make the changes
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26:39
we need to do to keep the Internet safe,
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26:42
not just for us but for everyone,
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we're going to lose that,
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and that would be a tremendous loss,
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1253
26:47
not just for us, but for the world.
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CA: Well, I have heard similar language recently
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from the founder of the world wide web,
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who I actually think is with us, Sir Tim Berners-Lee.
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4517
26:58
Tim, actually, would you like to come up and say,
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2704
27:01
do we have a microphone for Tim?
621
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1871
27:03
(Applause)
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27:05
Tim, good to see you. Come up there.
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7075
27:12
Which camp are you in, by the way,
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2437
27:15
traitor, hero? I have a theory on this, but --
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3500
27:18
Tim Berners-Lee: I've given much longer
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2694
27:21
answers to that question, but hero,
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3055
27:24
if I have to make the choice between the two.
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3402
27:27
CA: And Ed, I think you've read
629
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3333
27:31
the proposal that Sir Tim has talked about
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2084
27:33
about a new Magna Carta to take back the Internet.
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2968
27:36
Is that something that makes sense?
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2102
27:38
ES: Absolutely. I mean, my generation, I grew up
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3641
27:41
not just thinking about the Internet,
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2059
27:44
but I grew up in the Internet,
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2364
27:46
and although I never expected to have the chance
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4660
27:51
to defend it in such a direct and practical manner
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5547
27:56
and to embody it in this unusual,
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3796
28:00
almost avatar manner,
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2129
28:02
I think there's something poetic about the fact that
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2706
28:05
one of the sons of the Internet
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1982
28:07
has actually become close to the Internet
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3052
28:10
as a result of their political expression.
643
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2486
28:12
And I believe that a Magna Carta for the Internet
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3711
28:16
is exactly what we need.
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1684290
1962
28:18
We need to encode our values
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3508
28:21
not just in writing but in the structure of the Internet,
647
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3347
28:25
and it's something that I hope,
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2240
28:27
I invite everyone in the audience,
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2523
28:30
not just here in Vancouver but around the world,
650
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3250
28:33
to join and participate in.
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2356
28:35
CA: Do you have a question for Ed?
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2314
28:37
TBL: Well, two questions,
653
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2030
28:40
a general question —
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1124
28:41
CA: Ed, can you still hear us?
655
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1795
28:42
ES: Yes, I can hear you.
CA: Oh, he's back.
CA: Oh, he's back.
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3516
28:46
TBL: The wiretap on your line
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1595
28:48
got a little interfered with for a moment.
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1906
28:49
(Laughter)
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1653
28:51
ES: It's a little bit of an NSA problem.
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2202
28:53
TBL: So, from the 25 years,
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3807
28:57
stepping back and thinking,
662
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2937
29:00
what would you think would be
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1746
29:02
the best that we could achieve
664
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2607
29:04
from all the discussions that we have
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1860
29:06
about the web we want?
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2893
29:09
ES: When we think about
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3372
29:13
in terms of how far we can go,
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3113
29:16
I think that's a question that's really only limited
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2153
29:18
by what we're willing to put into it.
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2537
29:20
I think the Internet that we've enjoyed in the past
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2957
29:23
has been exactly what we as not just a nation
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5558
29:29
but as a people around the world need,
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3339
29:32
and by cooperating, by engaging not just
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4226
29:36
the technical parts of society,
675
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1404
29:38
but as you said, the users,
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2842
29:41
the people around the world who contribute
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29:43
through the Internet, through social media,
678
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2442
29:45
who just check the weather,
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1727
29:47
who rely on it every day as a part of their life,
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2553
29:49
to champion that.
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2940
29:52
We'll get not just the Internet we've had,
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2537
29:55
but a better Internet, a better now,
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2949
29:58
something that we can use to build a future
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4043
30:02
that'll be better not just than what we hoped for
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2968
30:05
but anything that we could have imagined.
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2385
30:07
CA: It's 30 years ago that TED was founded, 1984.
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5462
30:13
A lot of the conversation since then has been
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2005
30:15
along the lines that
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2054
30:17
actually George Orwell got it wrong.
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1903
30:19
It's not Big Brother watching us.
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1719
30:20
We, through the power of the web,
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1614
30:22
and transparency, are now watching Big Brother.
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2364
30:24
Your revelations kind of drove a stake
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2261
30:27
through the heart of that rather optimistic view,
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3747
30:30
but you still believe there's a way of doing something
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3420
30:34
about that.
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1869
30:36
And you do too.
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1740
30:37
ES: Right, so there is an argument to be made
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1825728
6168
30:44
that the powers of Big Brother
have increased enormously.
have increased enormously.
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3597
30:47
There was a recent legal article at Yale
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1835493
4329
30:52
that established something called
the Bankston-Soltani Principle,
the Bankston-Soltani Principle,
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1839822
3731
30:55
which is that our expectation of privacy is violated
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5229
31:00
when the capabilities of government surveillance
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1848782
1869
31:02
have become cheaper by an order of magnitude,
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1850651
3195
31:06
and each time that occurs, we need to revisit
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2722
31:08
and rebalance our privacy rights.
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3053
31:11
Now, that hasn't happened since
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1990
31:13
the government's surveillance powers
709
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2098
31:15
have increased by several orders of magnitude,
710
1863709
2780
31:18
and that's why we're in the
problem that we're in today,
problem that we're in today,
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2974
31:21
but there is still hope,
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1869463
3812
31:25
because the power of individuals
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2136
31:27
have also been increased by technology.
714
1875411
2607
31:30
I am living proof
715
1878018
2001
31:32
that an individual can go head to head
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2162
31:34
against the most powerful adversaries
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2318
31:36
and the most powerful intelligence agencies
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2321
31:39
around the world and win,
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3760
31:42
and I think that's something
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1660
31:44
that we need to take hope from,
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2423
31:46
and we need to build on
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1177
31:48
to make it accessible not just to technical experts
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2437
31:50
but to ordinary citizens around the world.
724
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2517
31:52
Journalism is not a crime,
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1667
31:54
communication is not a crime,
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1790
31:56
and we should not be monitored
in our everyday activities.
in our everyday activities.
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2944
31:59
CA: I'm not quite sure how
you shake the hand of a bot,
you shake the hand of a bot,
728
1907195
2729
32:02
but I imagine it's, this is the hand right here.
TBL: That'll come very soon.
TBL: That'll come very soon.
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5890
32:08
ES: Nice to meet you,
730
1915814
1123
32:09
and I hope my beam looks as nice
731
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2047
32:11
as my view of you guys does.
732
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2344
32:13
CA: Thank you, Tim.
733
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2720
32:16
(Applause)
734
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5732
32:21
I mean, The New York Times
recently called for an amnesty for you.
recently called for an amnesty for you.
735
1929780
4052
32:26
Would you welcome the chance
to come back to America?
to come back to America?
736
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4226
32:30
ES: Absolutely. There's really no question,
737
1938058
3885
32:34
the principles that have been the foundation
738
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2582
32:36
of this project
739
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2393
32:39
have been the public interest
740
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4080
32:43
and the principles that underly
741
1950998
2943
32:46
the journalistic establishment in the United States
742
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3276
32:49
and around the world,
743
1957217
2446
32:51
and I think if the press is now saying,
744
1959663
4845
32:56
we support this,
745
1964508
2082
32:58
this is something that needed to happen,
746
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2088
33:00
that's a powerful argument,
but it's not the final argument,
but it's not the final argument,
747
1968678
2644
33:03
and I think that's something
that public should decide.
that public should decide.
748
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2713
33:06
But at the same time,
749
1974035
1842
33:08
the government has hinted that they want
750
1975877
1546
33:09
some kind of deal,
751
1977423
1844
33:11
that they want me to compromise
752
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2114
33:13
the journalists with which I've been working,
753
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2175
33:15
to come back,
754
1983556
1433
33:17
and I want to make it very clear
755
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2553
33:19
that I did not do this to be safe.
756
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2726
33:22
I did this to do what was right,
757
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2268
33:24
and I'm not going to stop my work
758
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2227
33:26
in the public interest
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1374
33:28
just to benefit myself.
760
1996137
2789
33:31
(Applause)
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5778
33:36
CA: In the meantime,
762
2004704
1919
33:38
courtesy of the Internet and this technology,
763
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3768
33:42
you're here, back in North America,
764
2010391
1650
33:44
not quite the U.S., Canada, in this form.
765
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4016
33:48
I'm curious, how does that feel?
766
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4894
33:53
ES: Canada is different than what I expected.
767
2020951
2138
33:55
It's a lot warmer.
768
2023089
2125
33:57
(Laughter)
769
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5707
34:03
CA: At TED, the mission is "ideas worth spreading."
770
2030921
3256
34:06
If you could encapsulate it in a single idea,
771
2034177
2198
34:08
what is your idea worth spreading
772
2036375
2215
34:10
right now at this moment?
773
2038590
4075
34:14
ES: I would say the last year has been a reminder
774
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3650
34:18
that democracy may die behind closed doors,
775
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3603
34:22
but we as individuals are born
776
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1904
34:24
behind those same closed doors,
777
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2649
34:26
and we don't have to give up
778
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2365
34:29
our privacy to have good government.
779
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3233
34:32
We don't have to give up our liberty
780
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2090
34:34
to have security.
781
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1779
34:36
And I think by working together
782
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2788
34:38
we can have both open government
783
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2325
34:41
and private lives,
784
2069051
1937
34:43
and I look forward to working with everyone
785
2070988
1773
34:44
around the world to see that happen.
786
2072761
2539
34:47
Thank you very much.
787
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1338
34:48
CA: Ed, thank you.
788
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2240
34:51
(Applause)
789
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8829
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Edward Snowden - WhistleblowerIn 2013 Edward Snowden leaked thousands of classified American National Security Agency documents, sparking a global conversation about citizens' rights to privacy on the Internet.
Why you should listen
Edward Snowden was just about to turn 28 when his face was suddenly splashed across every major newspaper in the US. In the summer of 2013 The Guardian published a series of leaked documents about the American National Security Agency (NSA), starting with an article about a secret court order demanding American phone records from Verizon, followed by an article on the NSA's top-secret Prism program, said to be accessing user data from Google, Apple and Facebook.
It wasn't long before Snowden came forward as the source, revealing that he had carefully planned the leak, copying documents when he was working as a contractor for the NSA. "I understand that I will be made to suffer for my actions," he said at the time, but "I will be satisfied if the federation of secret law, unequal pardon and irresistible executive powers that rule the world that I love are revealed even for an instant." Snowden's actions have led to a global debate on the relationship between national security and online privacy. His leaks continue to have a lasting impact on the American public's view of the government, and has encouraged media scrutiny on the NSA.
Snowden had coordinated the leak with journalist Glenn Greenwald and filmmaker Laura Poitras from Hong Kong; after he revealed his identity, he fled and ended up in Moscow. Under charges of espionage by the American government, Snowden remains in Russia in temporary asylum.
Edward Snowden | Speaker | TED.com