TEDWomen 2010
Aicha el-Wafi + Phyllis Rodriguez: The mothers who found forgiveness, friendship
9/11 liječenje: Majke koje su pronašle oprost, prijateljstvo
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Phyllis Rodriguez i Aicha el-Wafi veže jako prijateljstvo rođeno iz nezamislivog gubitka. Sin od Rodriguez je ubijen u napadu na Svjetski trgovinski centar 11-og rujna 2001. godine; Zacarias Moussaoui, sin od el-Wafi je osuđen zbog sudjelovanja u tim napadima i služi doživotnu kaznu. U nadi kako će pronaći mir, te dvije mame su uspjele shvatiti i poštivati jedna drugu.
Aicha el-Wafi + Phyllis Rodriguez - 9/11 mothers
Aicha el-Wafi and Phyllis Rodriguez met around a shared tragedy -- and their friendship has become a powerful symbol for forgiveness and dialogue. Full bio
Aicha el-Wafi and Phyllis Rodriguez met around a shared tragedy -- and their friendship has become a powerful symbol for forgiveness and dialogue. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
Phyllis Rodriguez: We are here today
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Phyllis Rodriguez: Ovdje smo danas
00:18
because of the fact
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zbog činjenice
00:20
that we have what most people consider
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što imamo, prema mišljenju mnogih,
00:22
an unusual friendship.
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neobično prijateljstvo.
00:24
And it is.
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I to je istina.
00:26
And yet, it feels natural to us now.
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A ipak, to nam se čini prirodnim.
00:29
I first learned
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Prvo sam saznala
00:31
that my son had been in the World Trade Center
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kako je moj sin bio u Svjetskom trgovinskom centru
00:35
on the morning of September 11th, 2001.
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ujutro 11-og rujna 2001. godine.
00:39
We didn't know
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Nismo znali
00:41
if he had perished yet
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je li poginuo
00:43
until 36 hours later.
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unutar prvih 36 sati.
00:48
At the time,
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Tada
00:50
we knew that it was political.
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smo znali kako je to vezano uz politiku.
00:53
We were afraid of what our country was going to do
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Bojali smo se što će naša zemlja učiniti
00:56
in the name of our son --
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u ime našeg sina --
00:58
my husband, Orlando, and I and our family.
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moj muž, Orlando, i ja i naša obitelj.
01:01
And when I saw it --
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A kada sam vidjela --
01:03
and yet, through the shock,
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a ipak, kroz šok,
01:05
the terrible shock,
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strašan šok,
01:07
and the terrible explosion in our lives, literally,
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i strašnu eksploziju u našim životima, doslovno,
01:13
we were not vengeful.
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nismo bili osvetoljubivi.
01:16
And a couple of weeks later
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I par tjedana kasnije
01:18
when Zacarias Moussaoui was indicted
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kada je Zacharias Moussaoui bio optužen
01:21
on six counts of conspiracy to commit terrorism,
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po šest točaka urote terorizmom,
01:26
and the U.S. government called for a death penalty
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i američka vlada je pozvala na smrtnu kaznu
01:29
for him, if convicted,
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za njega, ako bude osuđen,
01:31
my husband and I spoke out
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moj muž i ja smo progovorili
01:34
in opposition to that, publicly.
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u javnosti protiv toga.
01:37
Through that
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Kroz to
01:39
and through human rights groups,
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i preko udruga za ljudska prava,
01:41
we were brought together
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spojili smo se
01:43
with several other victims' families.
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s nekoliko drugih obitelji žrtava.
01:46
When I saw Aicha in the media,
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Kada sam vidjela Aichu u medijima,
01:49
coming over when her son was indicted,
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kako dolazi ovdje kada je njezin sin bio optužen,
01:52
and I thought, "What a brave woman.
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pomislila sam, "Koja hrabra žena.
01:55
Someday I want to meet that woman when I'm stronger."
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Jednog dana kada budem snažnija, želim upoznati tu ženu."
01:58
I was still in deep grief;
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Još uvijek sam bila u stanju dubokog žalovanja;
02:00
I knew I didn't have the strength.
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Znala sam kako nemam snage.
02:02
I knew I would find her someday,
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Znala sam da ću je jednog dana pronaći,
02:04
or we would find each other.
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ili ćemo pronaći jedna drugu.
02:06
Because, when people heard that my son was a victim,
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Jer, kada ljudi čuju kako je moj sin bio žrtva,
02:10
I got immediate sympathy.
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odmah dobijem saučešće.
02:13
But when people learned
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Ali kada ljudi saznaju
02:15
what her son was accused of,
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za što je njezin sin bio optužen,
02:17
she didn't get that sympathy.
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ona ne dobije tu vrstu naklonosti.
02:19
But her suffering is equal to mine.
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Ali njezina patnja je jednaka mojoj.
02:22
So we met in November 2002,
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Tako smo se upoznali u studenom 2002. godine.
02:25
and Aicha will now tell you
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A Aicha će vam ispričati
02:28
how that came about.
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kako je došlo do toga.
02:33
(Translator) Aicha el-Wafi: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
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(Prevoditeljica) Aicha el-Wafi: Dobar dan, dame i gospodo.
02:39
I am the mother of Zacarias Moussaoui.
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Ja sam majka Zachariasa Moussaoui-a.
02:48
And I asked
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I zamolila sam
02:53
the Organization of Human Rights
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Organizaciju za ljudska prava
02:55
to put me in touch with the parents of the victims.
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da me spoji s roditeljima žrtava.
03:03
So they introduced me
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Stoga su me oni upoznali
03:06
to five families.
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s pet obitelji.
03:12
And I saw Phyllis, and I watched her.
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I vidjela sam Phyllis, i gledala sam je.
03:17
She was the only mother in the group.
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Ona je bila jedina majka u grupi.
03:22
The others were brothers, sisters.
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Ostali su bili braća, sestre.
03:28
And I saw in her eyes
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I vidjela sam u njezinim očima
03:30
that she was a mother, just like me.
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kako je ona bila majka, poput mene.
03:34
I suffered a lot as a mother.
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Puno sam patila kao majka.
03:41
I was married when I was 14.
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Udala sam se s 14.
03:46
I lost a child when I was 15,
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Izgubila sam dijete s 15,
03:51
a second child when I was 16.
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drugo dijete kada mi je bilo 16.
03:57
So the story with Zacarias was too much really.
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Stoga je priča sa Zacharias-om bila uistinu previše.
04:03
And I still suffer,
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I još uvijek patim,
04:07
because my son
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jer moj sin
04:09
is like he's buried alive.
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kao da je živ zakopan.
04:14
I know she really cried for her son.
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Znam kako je doista oplakivala svog sina.
04:19
But she knows where he is.
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Ali ona zna gdje je on.
04:28
My son, I don't know where he is.
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Moj sin, ne znam gdje je.
04:30
I don't know if he's alive. I don't know if he's tortured.
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Ne znam je li živ. Ne znam je li mučen.
04:32
I don't know what happened to him.
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Ne znam što se dogodilo s njim.
04:38
So that's why I decided to tell my story,
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Zato sam odlučila ispričati svoju priču,
04:40
so that my suffering is something positive for other women.
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kako bi moja patnja predstavljala nešto pozitivno za druge žene.
04:48
For all the women, all the mothers that give life,
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Za sve žene, sve majke koje daju život,
04:55
you can give back,
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možete to uzeti natrag,
04:57
you can change.
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možete to promijeniti.
04:59
It's up to us women,
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To je na nama ženama,
05:02
because we are women,
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jer mi smo žene,
05:05
because we love our children.
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jer mi volimo svoju djecu.
05:13
We must be hand-in-hand
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Moramo biti složne
05:15
and do something together.
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i učiniti nešto zajedno.
05:19
It's not against women,
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To nije protiv nas žena,
05:21
it's for us, for us women,
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to je za nas, za nas žene,
05:23
for our children.
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za našu djecu.
05:34
I talk against violence, against terrorism.
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Ja govorim protiv nasilja, protiv terorizma.
05:37
I go to schools
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Odlazim u škole
05:39
to talk to young, Muslim girls
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kako bi pričala mladim, muslimanskim curama
05:42
so they don't accept to be married against their will very young.
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da se ne udaju protiv svoje volje kada su još jako mlade.
05:58
So if I can save one of the young girls,
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Zato, ako mogu spasiti jednu od tih mladih djevojki,
06:03
and avoid that they get married and suffer as much as I did,
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i spriječiti da se udaju i pate toliko koliko sam ja patila,
06:06
well this is something good.
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to je onda nešto dobro.
06:10
This is why I'm here in front of you.
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Zbog toga sam ovdje pred vama.
06:12
PR: I would like to say
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PR: Htjela bih reći
06:14
that I have learned so much from Aicha,
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kako sam naučila toliko mnogo od Aicha-e,
06:17
starting with that day we had our very first meeting
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počevši već onog dana kada smo imale naš prvi sastanak
06:20
with other family members --
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s ostalim članovima obitelji --
06:22
which was a very private meeting with security,
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koji je bio veoma privatni sastanak s osiguranjem,
06:25
because it was November 2002,
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jer je bio studeni 2002.,
06:28
and, frankly, we were afraid of the super-patriotism of that time in the country --
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i, iskreno, bojali smo se super-patriotizma naše zemlje u to vrijeme --
06:34
those of us family members.
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mi, članovi obitelji.
06:38
But we were all so nervous.
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Ali svi smo bili tako nervozni.
06:41
"Why does she want to meet us?"
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"Zašto nas ona želi upoznati?"
06:44
And then she was nervous.
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A zatim je ona bila nervozna.
06:46
"Why did we want to meet her?"
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"Zašto smo mi nju htjeli upoznati?"
06:48
What did we want from each other?
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Što smo htjeli jedni od drugih?
06:52
Before we knew each others' names, or anything,
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Prije nego smo saznali imena, ili bilo što,
06:55
we had embraced and wept.
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zagrlile smo se i plakale.
06:57
Then we sat in a circle
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Zatim smo sjeli u krug
07:00
with support, with help,
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s potporom, s pomoći,
07:02
from people experienced in this kind of reconciliation.
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od ljudi koji imaju iskustva s takvom vrstom pomirbe.
07:06
And Aicha started,
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I Aicha je započela,
07:08
and she said,
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i rekla je,
07:10
"I don't know if my son
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"Ne znam je li moj sin
07:13
is guilty or innocent,
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kriv ili nevin,
07:15
but I want to tell you how sorry I am
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ali želim vam reći koliko mi je žao
07:18
for what happened to your families.
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za to što se dogodilo vašim obiteljima.
07:23
I know what it is to suffer,
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Znam što je to patnja,
07:26
and I feel that if there is a crime,
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i osjećam da, ukoliko dođe do zločina,
07:30
a person should be tried fairly and punished."
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osobu treba suditi pošteno i ta osoba treba biti kažnjena."
07:35
But she reached out to us in that way,
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Ali ona nam je pristupila na taj način.
07:39
and it was, I'd like to say, it was an ice-breaker.
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I to je bio, rekla bih, dobar način razbijanja nervoze.
07:43
And what happened then is we all told our stories,
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I ono što se dogodilo jest da smo svi mi ispričali svoje priče,
07:47
and we all connected as human beings.
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i svi smo se povezali kao ljudska bića.
07:49
By the end of the afternoon --
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Do kraja poslijepodneva --
07:51
it was about three hours after lunch --
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bilo je to oko tri sata nakon ručka --
07:55
we'd felt as if we'd known each other forever.
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osjećali smo se kao da se znamo oduvijek.
07:57
Now what I learned from her,
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Ono što sam naučila od nje,
07:59
is a woman, not only who could be so generous
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je žena, ne samo koja može biti toliko velikodušna
08:02
under these present circumstances
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pod tim sadašnjim okolnostima
08:04
and what it was then,
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i ono što je bilo tada,
08:06
and what was being done to her son,
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i što se činilo njezinom sinu,
08:08
but the life she's had.
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već život koji je imala.
08:10
I never had met
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Nikada nisam upoznala
08:12
someone with such a hard life,
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nekoga tko je imao tako težak život,
08:14
from such a totally different culture and environment from my own.
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a tko je bio iz potpuno drugačije kulture i okoline nego što je moja.
08:19
And I feel
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I osjećam
08:21
that we have
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kako imamo
08:23
a special connection,
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posebnu vezu,
08:25
which I value very much.
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koju cjenima jako puno.
08:27
And I think it's all about
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I mislim kako se radi o tome
08:30
being afraid of the other,
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što smo se bojale jedna druge,
08:32
but making that step
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no učinile smo taj korak
08:35
and then realizing, "Hey, this wasn't so hard.
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i zatim shvatile, "Hej, pa to nije bilo tako teško.
08:38
Who else can I meet that I don't know,
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Koga još mogu sresti a da ga ne poznajem,
08:40
or that I'm so different from?"
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ili od koga sam različita?"
08:44
So, Aicha,
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Dakle, Aicha,
08:46
do you have a couple of words
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imaš li par riječi
08:48
for conclusion?
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za zaključak?
08:50
Because our time is up.
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Jer naše vrijeme je isteklo.
08:52
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
09:00
(Translator) AW: I wanted to say
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(Prevoditeljica) AW: Željela sam reći
09:02
that we have to try to know other people, the other.
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kako moramo pokušavati upoznavati druge ljude.
09:08
You have to be generous,
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Morate biti velikodušni,
09:10
and your hearts must be generous,
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i vaša srca moraju biti velikodušna,
09:12
your mind must be generous.
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vaš um mora biti velikodušan.
09:15
You must be tolerant.
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Morate biti tolerantni.
09:20
You have to fight against violence.
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Morate se boriti protiv nasilja.
09:26
And I hope that someday we'll all live together
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I nadam se kako ćemo jednog dana svi živjeti zajedno
09:29
in peace and respecting each other.
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u miru i poštivati jedni druge.
09:32
This is what I wanted to say.
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To sam željela reći.
09:34
(Applause)
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(Pljesak)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Aicha el-Wafi + Phyllis Rodriguez - 9/11 mothersAicha el-Wafi and Phyllis Rodriguez met around a shared tragedy -- and their friendship has become a powerful symbol for forgiveness and dialogue.
Why you should listen
Phyllis Rodriguez is an artist, a teacher and a social justice activist. On September 11, 2001, her son Greg died in the attacks on the World Trade Center. Rodriguez and her husband wrote an open letter, "Not in Our Son's Name," calling on President Bush to oppose a military response in Afghanistan.
Aicha el-Wafi is an activist with the French feminist group Ni Putes Ni Soumise, working with Muslim women. Her son, Zacarias Moussaoui, was tried in relation to the attacks on US soil, and faced the possibility of execution if convicted.
In November 2002, Phyllis Rodriguez and several other relatives of victims of the attacks were invited to meet Aicha el-Wafi. Rodriguez and el-Wafi have since appeared together throughout Europe and the US, telling their story of reconciliation and forgiveness.
Aicha el-Wafi + Phyllis Rodriguez | Speaker | TED.com