TEDWomen 2010
Aicha el-Wafi + Phyllis Rodriguez: The mothers who found forgiveness, friendship
治愈911：寻找宽恕，友谊的母亲们
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菲莉斯·罗德里格斯和艾莎·瓦非从不计较得失之中衍生出了紧密的友情。罗德里格斯的儿子在2001年911撞击世贸大厦时丧生；瓦非的儿子撒迦利亚·穆萨维因发起这次袭击而被定罪并判处死刑。为了寻求希望中的和平，这两位母亲互相了解并互相倚重。
Aicha el-Wafi + Phyllis Rodriguez - 9/11 mothers
Aicha el-Wafi and Phyllis Rodriguez met around a shared tragedy -- and their friendship has become a powerful symbol for forgiveness and dialogue. Full bio
Aicha el-Wafi and Phyllis Rodriguez met around a shared tragedy -- and their friendship has become a powerful symbol for forgiveness and dialogue. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
Phyllis Rodriguez: We are here today
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菲莉斯·罗德里格斯：我们今天站在这里
00:18
because of the fact
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是因为
00:20
that we have what most people consider
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我们拥有大多数认为的
00:22
an unusual friendship.
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不寻常的一份友情。
00:24
And it is.
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而且它的确是这样。
00:26
And yet, it feels natural to us now.
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现在，我们已经感觉很自然了。
00:29
I first learned
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我起初知道
00:31
that my son had been in the World Trade Center
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我的儿子在2001年9月11日早晨
00:35
on the morning of September 11th, 2001.
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进入了世贸大厦。
00:39
We didn't know
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我们不知道
00:41
if he had perished yet
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是否他还活着
00:43
until 36 hours later.
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直到事发36小时之后。
00:48
At the time,
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那时，
00:50
we knew that it was political.
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我知道这是政治原因。
00:53
We were afraid of what our country was going to do
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我们担心国家会以我们孩子的名义
00:56
in the name of our son --
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要做的那些事--
00:58
my husband, Orlando, and I and our family.
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我丈夫，奥兰多，和我以及我们一家。
01:01
And when I saw it --
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当我看到的时候--
01:03
and yet, through the shock,
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可是，经历了这种震惊，
01:05
the terrible shock,
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可怕的震惊，
01:07
and the terrible explosion in our lives, literally,
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真正意义上的生活中可怕的震惊，
01:13
we were not vengeful.
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我们并没有心存报复。
01:16
And a couple of weeks later
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几周之后
01:18
when Zacarias Moussaoui was indicted
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当撒迦利亚·穆萨维被指控为
01:21
on six counts of conspiracy to commit terrorism,
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六个密谋制造恐怖袭击的份子之一，
01:26
and the U.S. government called for a death penalty
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同时美国政府对他将判决
01:29
for him, if convicted,
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死刑，如果定罪的话，
01:31
my husband and I spoke out
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我丈夫和我
01:34
in opposition to that, publicly.
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也用完全不同的角度，群众的角度讨论过这些。
01:37
Through that
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通过这些
01:39
and through human rights groups,
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也通过人权组织，
01:41
we were brought together
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我们走到了一起
01:43
with several other victims' families.
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还有一些其他受害者家属。
01:46
When I saw Aicha in the media,
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当我在媒体上看到艾莎，
01:49
coming over when her son was indicted,
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同时她的儿子被指控的时候，
01:52
and I thought, "What a brave woman.
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我就想，“多么勇敢的女人。
01:55
Someday I want to meet that woman when I'm stronger."
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当我更坚强的时候，我想见见这个女人。”
01:58
I was still in deep grief;
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我仍旧沉浸在悲伤中，
02:00
I knew I didn't have the strength.
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我知道我不够坚强。
02:02
I knew I would find her someday,
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我知道有一天我能找到她，
02:04
or we would find each other.
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也许我们会找到彼此。
02:06
Because, when people heard that my son was a victim,
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因为，当人们听说我儿子是受害者的时候，
02:10
I got immediate sympathy.
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我立即得到了同情。
02:13
But when people learned
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但是当人们听说
02:15
what her son was accused of,
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她的儿子是被指控的时候，
02:17
she didn't get that sympathy.
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她却没有得到同情。
02:19
But her suffering is equal to mine.
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但是她和我一样的痛苦。
02:22
So we met in November 2002,
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于是我们在2002年11月相遇了。
02:25
and Aicha will now tell you
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接下来艾莎会告诉你们
02:28
how that came about.
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事情是怎么发生的。
02:33
(Translator) Aicha el-Wafi: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
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（翻译员）艾莎·瓦非：下午好，女士们先生们。
02:39
I am the mother of Zacarias Moussaoui.
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我是撒迦利亚·穆萨维的母亲。
02:48
And I asked
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我请求
02:53
the Organization of Human Rights
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人权组织
02:55
to put me in touch with the parents of the victims.
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让我和那些受害者的父母取得联系。
03:03
So they introduced me
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于是他们就把我介绍给
03:06
to five families.
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5个家庭。
03:12
And I saw Phyllis, and I watched her.
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当我遇见菲莉斯的时候，我注意到她。
03:17
She was the only mother in the group.
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她是这个团体中唯一的母亲。
03:22
The others were brothers, sisters.
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其他都是兄弟，姐妹。
03:28
And I saw in her eyes
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当我从她的目光中看出
03:30
that she was a mother, just like me.
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她是个母亲，和我一样的母亲。
03:34
I suffered a lot as a mother.
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作为一个母亲我也遭受了很多悲痛。
03:41
I was married when I was 14.
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我14岁结的婚。
03:46
I lost a child when I was 15,
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15岁失去了第一个孩子，
03:51
a second child when I was 16.
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16岁失去了第二个孩子。
03:57
So the story with Zacarias was too much really.
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所以撒迦利亚的事对我真的意味太多。
04:03
And I still suffer,
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我仍旧还在悲痛中，
04:07
because my son
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因为我的儿子
04:09
is like he's buried alive.
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就像被活埋了一样。
04:14
I know she really cried for her son.
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我了解她的确为她儿子痛哭不已。
04:19
But she knows where he is.
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但是她起码知道他在哪里。
04:28
My son, I don't know where he is.
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我儿子，我甚至不知道他在何方。
04:30
I don't know if he's alive. I don't know if he's tortured.
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我不知道他是否还活着。我不知道他是否被虐待过。
04:32
I don't know what happened to him.
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我不知道在他身上发生了什么。
04:38
So that's why I decided to tell my story,
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这也是为什么我决定讲述我的故事的原因，
04:40
so that my suffering is something positive for other women.
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以便我的痛苦能对其他妇女有些正面的帮助。
04:48
For all the women, all the mothers that give life,
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为了所有的妇女，所有赐予生命的母亲，
04:55
you can give back,
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你们可以恢复，
04:57
you can change.
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你们可以改变。
04:59
It's up to us women,
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这取决于我们妇女，
05:02
because we are women,
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因为我们是女人，
05:05
because we love our children.
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因为我们爱我们的孩子。
05:13
We must be hand-in-hand
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我们一定要联手起来
05:15
and do something together.
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一起做一些事。
05:19
It's not against women,
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这事不是为了反对妇女，
05:21
it's for us, for us women,
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这是为了我们，为了我们妇女，
05:23
for our children.
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为了我们的孩子们。
05:34
I talk against violence, against terrorism.
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我反对暴力，反对恐怖主义。
05:37
I go to schools
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我去学校
05:39
to talk to young, Muslim girls
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和那些年轻的穆斯林女孩交谈
05:42
so they don't accept to be married against their will very young.
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所以在她们年少时不会接受违背她们意志的婚姻。
05:58
So if I can save one of the young girls,
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如果我能拯救一个年轻的女孩，
06:03
and avoid that they get married and suffer as much as I did,
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从而避免她们过早结婚而像我一样遭受这么多，
06:06
well this is something good.
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起码这就是好的事情。
06:10
This is why I'm here in front of you.
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这就是为什么我在这里站在你们面前。
06:12
PR: I would like to say
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菲莉斯·罗德里格斯：我想说的是
06:14
that I have learned so much from Aicha,
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我从艾莎这里学到了很多，
06:17
starting with that day we had our very first meeting
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回首我们初次见面的那天
06:20
with other family members --
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还有其他家庭的成员--
06:22
which was a very private meeting with security,
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这是个受保护的很私下的聚会，
06:25
because it was November 2002,
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因为当时是2002年11月，
06:28
and, frankly, we were afraid of the super-patriotism of that time in the country --
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老实说，我们担心国内的那些极端（左翼）爱国主义者--
06:34
those of us family members.
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那些我们家族成员。
06:38
But we were all so nervous.
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但是我们都很紧张。
06:41
"Why does she want to meet us?"
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“为什么她想见我们？”
06:44
And then she was nervous.
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同时她也很紧张。
06:46
"Why did we want to meet her?"
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“为什么我们想见她？”
06:48
What did we want from each other?
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我们彼此间想得到些什么？
06:52
Before we knew each others' names, or anything,
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在我们了解其他人的姓名和其他一些事情之前，
06:55
we had embraced and wept.
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我们已经哭着相互抱在一起。
06:57
Then we sat in a circle
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接着我们坐成一个圈
07:00
with support, with help,
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在和解的环境下和那些经历过此事的人
07:02
from people experienced in this kind of reconciliation.
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互相扶持，互相帮助。
07:06
And Aicha started,
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艾莎起的头
07:08
and she said,
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她讲述道，
07:10
"I don't know if my son
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“我不知道我的儿子
07:13
is guilty or innocent,
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是有罪还是无辜的，
07:15
but I want to tell you how sorry I am
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但是我想告诉你们我有多么抱歉
07:18
for what happened to your families.
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对于那些发生在你们家庭里的事。
07:23
I know what it is to suffer,
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我知道这是很痛苦，
07:26
and I feel that if there is a crime,
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同时我以为，如果有人犯罪的话，
07:30
a person should be tried fairly and punished."
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那人应该被公平的对待和定罪。”
07:35
But she reached out to us in that way,
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但她是用这种方式与我们感同身受。
07:39
and it was, I'd like to say, it was an ice-breaker.
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这是，我想说，这是一种冰释前嫌的方式。
07:43
And what happened then is we all told our stories,
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接下去发生的是，我们全都讲述了自己的故事，
07:47
and we all connected as human beings.
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我们作为平等人互相交流着。
07:49
By the end of the afternoon --
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在下午结束的时候--
07:51
it was about three hours after lunch --
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大概是午餐之后3个小时--
07:55
we'd felt as if we'd known each other forever.
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我们感觉就好像我们永远了解彼此一样。
07:57
Now what I learned from her,
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我从她身上学到的，
07:59
is a woman, not only who could be so generous
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是作为一个女人，可以变的如此宽容
08:02
under these present circumstances
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不但在当时的情况下
08:04
and what it was then,
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那时所发生的，
08:06
and what was being done to her son,
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和她孩子所经历过的遭遇，
08:08
but the life she's had.
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而且是她所经历的人生。
08:10
I never had met
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从我经历过的不同文化和环境，
08:12
someone with such a hard life,
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我从来没有见到过，
08:14
from such a totally different culture and environment from my own.
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有如此艰苦命运的人。
08:19
And I feel
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我觉得
08:21
that we have
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我们有着
08:23
a special connection,
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一种特别的联系，
08:25
which I value very much.
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一种我很珍惜的联系。
08:27
And I think it's all about
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我想这都是因为
08:30
being afraid of the other,
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互相之间的关心，
08:32
but making that step
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但是当做到这地步
08:35
and then realizing, "Hey, this wasn't so hard.
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就会意识到，“啊，这不是那么难。
08:38
Who else can I meet that I don't know,
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我还能遇见一些我所不了解的人，
08:40
or that I'm so different from?"
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或是和我与众不同的人吗？
08:44
So, Aicha,
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所以，艾莎，
08:46
do you have a couple of words
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你有要总结的
08:48
for conclusion?
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话吗？
08:50
Because our time is up.
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因为我们的时间快到了。
08:52
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
09:00
(Translator) AW: I wanted to say
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（翻译员）艾莎·瓦非：我想说
09:02
that we have to try to know other people, the other.
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我们要尝试着了解其他人，其他事，
09:08
You have to be generous,
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你要变得大度，
09:10
and your hearts must be generous,
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同时你的心境也必须变得宽容，
09:12
your mind must be generous.
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你的想法必须变得大度。
09:15
You must be tolerant.
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你要学会宽恕。
09:20
You have to fight against violence.
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你不得不与暴力作斗争。
09:26
And I hope that someday we'll all live together
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我希望有一天我们会生活在一起
09:29
in peace and respecting each other.
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和平尊重其他人。
09:32
This is what I wanted to say.
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这就是我想说的。
09:34
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Aicha el-Wafi + Phyllis Rodriguez - 9/11 mothersAicha el-Wafi and Phyllis Rodriguez met around a shared tragedy -- and their friendship has become a powerful symbol for forgiveness and dialogue.
Why you should listen
Phyllis Rodriguez is an artist, a teacher and a social justice activist. On September 11, 2001, her son Greg died in the attacks on the World Trade Center. Rodriguez and her husband wrote an open letter, "Not in Our Son's Name," calling on President Bush to oppose a military response in Afghanistan.
Aicha el-Wafi is an activist with the French feminist group Ni Putes Ni Soumise, working with Muslim women. Her son, Zacarias Moussaoui, was tried in relation to the attacks on US soil, and faced the possibility of execution if convicted.
In November 2002, Phyllis Rodriguez and several other relatives of victims of the attacks were invited to meet Aicha el-Wafi. Rodriguez and el-Wafi have since appeared together throughout Europe and the US, telling their story of reconciliation and forgiveness.
Aicha el-Wafi + Phyllis Rodriguez | Speaker | TED.com