TEDWomen 2010
Aicha el-Wafi + Phyllis Rodriguez: The mothers who found forgiveness, friendship
911的療癒: 兩位媽媽所找到的原諒和友誼
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Phyllis Rodriguez 和Aicha el-Wafi 由於同樣經歷了失去兒子的哀傷, 她們建立一段非常不尋常的友誼。Rodriguez 的兒子在二零零一年九一一世貿中心被襲意外中喪生。el-Wafi 的兒子Zacarias Moussaoui 被控參與這場襲擊而判處無期徒刑。為了尋求世界的和平, 這兩個母親走在一起學著怎樣去互相明白和尊重。
Aicha el-Wafi + Phyllis Rodriguez - 9/11 mothers
Aicha el-Wafi and Phyllis Rodriguez met around a shared tragedy -- and their friendship has become a powerful symbol for forgiveness and dialogue. Full bio
Aicha el-Wafi and Phyllis Rodriguez met around a shared tragedy -- and their friendship has become a powerful symbol for forgiveness and dialogue. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
Phyllis Rodriguez: We are here today
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我們今天在此
00:18
because of the fact
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因為這個事實
00:20
that we have what most people consider
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我們擁有大多數人所認為的
00:22
an unusual friendship.
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不尋常的友情。
00:24
And it is.
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這是,
00:26
And yet, it feels natural to us now.
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即使如此, 但現在, 我們都感到很自然。
00:29
I first learned
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我第一次知道
00:31
that my son had been in the World Trade Center
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我的兒子在世界貿易中心
00:35
on the morning of September 11th, 2001.
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在二零零一年九月十一日的早上。
00:39
We didn't know
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我們並不知道
00:41
if he had perished yet
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他是否遇害
00:43
until 36 hours later.
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直到三十六小時之後。
00:48
At the time,
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當時，
00:50
we knew that it was political.
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我們知道這是政治的原因。
00:53
We were afraid of what our country was going to do
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我們都很擔心我們的國家將會做些什麼事
00:56
in the name of our son --
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以我們兒子之名---
00:58
my husband, Orlando, and I and our family.
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我的丈夫, 我, 以及我的家人
01:01
And when I saw it --
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當我們看到---
01:03
and yet, through the shock,
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雖然, 很震驚
01:05
the terrible shock,
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很可怕的震驚，
01:07
and the terrible explosion in our lives, literally,
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也是我們生命裡的可怕的爆炸
01:13
we were not vengeful.
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但是我們沒有想著要報仇。
01:16
And a couple of weeks later
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數個星期之後
01:18
when Zacarias Moussaoui was indicted
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當Zacharias Moussaoui 被指控
01:21
on six counts of conspiracy to commit terrorism,
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六項恐佈襲擊的陰謀時，
01:26
and the U.S. government called for a death penalty
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美國政府要求對他判處死刑
01:29
for him, if convicted,
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如果罪名成立的話。
01:31
my husband and I spoke out
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我和我的丈夫對公開
01:34
in opposition to that, publicly.
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反對這判決。
01:37
Through that
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透過這
01:39
and through human rights groups,
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也透過人權組織，
01:41
we were brought together
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我們跟
01:43
with several other victims' families.
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其他受害者家屬組織起來了
01:46
When I saw Aicha in the media,
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當我在媒體上看到Aichia，
01:49
coming over when her son was indicted,
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為她的兒子的起訴而走過來的時候，
01:52
and I thought, "What a brave woman.
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我在想: 「這真是一個勇敢的女人。
01:55
Someday I want to meet that woman when I'm stronger."
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我希望有一天, 當我強壯一點的時候, 可以跟她見面。」
01:58
I was still in deep grief;
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我仍在深深的哀傷之中；
02:00
I knew I didn't have the strength.
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我知道我沒有這份力氣。
02:02
I knew I would find her someday,
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但我知道我有一天會去找她，
02:04
or we would find each other.
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或, 我們會去找到對方。
02:06
Because, when people heard that my son was a victim,
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因為, 當別人聽到我的兒子是受害者，
02:10
I got immediate sympathy.
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我即時得到同情。
02:13
But when people learned
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但當人們知道
02:15
what her son was accused of,
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她的兒子所被指控的事,
02:17
she didn't get that sympathy.
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她沒有得到同樣的同情。
02:19
But her suffering is equal to mine.
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可是, 她的痛苦是跟我相同的。
02:22
So we met in November 2002,
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我們在二零零二年十一月相見。
02:25
and Aicha will now tell you
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現在Aicha會告訴你
02:28
how that came about.
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這些事情是怎樣發生的。
02:33
(Translator) Aicha el-Wafi: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
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〈傳譯〉Aicha el-Wafi:午安, 各位先生和女士。
02:39
I am the mother of Zacarias Moussaoui.
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我是Zacharias Moussaoui 的媽媽。
02:48
And I asked
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我去要求
02:53
the Organization of Human Rights
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人權組織
02:55
to put me in touch with the parents of the victims.
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讓我去接觸那些受害人的父母。
03:03
So they introduced me
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所以他們介紹我給
03:06
to five families.
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給五個家庭認識。
03:12
And I saw Phyllis, and I watched her.
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我看見Phyllis, 我一直留意著她。
03:17
She was the only mother in the group.
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她是那個小組裡唯一的媽媽。
03:22
The others were brothers, sisters.
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其他都是兄弟或是姊妹。
03:28
And I saw in her eyes
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我從她的眼睛看到
03:30
that she was a mother, just like me.
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她也是一個媽媽, 跟我一樣的。
03:34
I suffered a lot as a mother.
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我作為一個媽媽很痛苦。
03:41
I was married when I was 14.
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我十四歲便已經結了婚。
03:46
I lost a child when I was 15,
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我在十五歲的時候失去了一個孩子,
03:51
a second child when I was 16.
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當我十六歲時失去了第二個孩子。
03:57
So the story with Zacarias was too much really.
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所以和Zacharias的故事實在是太過深刻了。
04:03
And I still suffer,
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但我仍然痛苦，
04:07
because my son
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因為我兒子
04:09
is like he's buried alive.
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就像是被活埋了一樣。
04:14
I know she really cried for her son.
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我知道她真的為兒子而哭。
04:19
But she knows where he is.
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但她知道他在哪裡，
04:28
My son, I don't know where he is.
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我的兒子, 我不知道他在那裡。
04:30
I don't know if he's alive. I don't know if he's tortured.
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我不知道他是否仍然生存, 不知道他是否受到折磨。
04:32
I don't know what happened to him.
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我不知道他發生了什麼事。
04:38
So that's why I decided to tell my story,
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於是, 我決定去說我的故事，
04:40
so that my suffering is something positive for other women.
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希望令我痛苦的事, 對其他女性來說, 可以有正面的意義。
04:48
For all the women, all the mothers that give life,
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對所有的女人,所有賦予生命的媽媽,
04:55
you can give back,
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你可以貢獻，
04:57
you can change.
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你可以改變。
04:59
It's up to us women,
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這取決於我們女人,
05:02
because we are women,
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因為我們都是女人，
05:05
because we love our children.
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因為我們愛我們的孩子。
05:13
We must be hand-in-hand
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我們一定要手牽手
05:15
and do something together.
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一起去做一些事。
05:19
It's not against women,
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這不是反對女性
05:21
it's for us, for us women,
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這是為我們, 為我們女人
05:23
for our children.
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為我們的孩子。
05:34
I talk against violence, against terrorism.
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我講反抗暴力, 反抗恐佈主義。
05:37
I go to schools
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我去學校
05:39
to talk to young, Muslim girls
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跟年青的伊斯蘭女孩講說
05:42
so they don't accept to be married against their will very young.
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令她們不去接受那些不符自己意願的早婚。
05:58
So if I can save one of the young girls,
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於是, 我可以拯救其中一些女孩，
06:03
and avoid that they get married and suffer as much as I did,
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以及防止她的早婚令她們跟我們一樣的受苦，
06:06
well this is something good.
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我想, 這是一些好的事情。
06:10
This is why I'm here in front of you.
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這也是為什麼我會在你們面前。
06:12
PR: I would like to say
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PR:我會說
06:14
that I have learned so much from Aicha,
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我在Aicha 身上學到很多東西，
06:17
starting with that day we had our very first meeting
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由我們第一次的見面開始
06:20
with other family members --
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也跟其他的家庭成員---
06:22
which was a very private meeting with security,
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這是一個高度保密的私人會面,
06:25
because it was November 2002,
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因為當時是二零零二年十一月，
06:28
and, frankly, we were afraid of the super-patriotism of that time in the country --
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誠然, 我們也害怕當時國家裡的超級愛國主義---
06:34
those of us family members.
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我們那些家庭成員。
06:38
But we were all so nervous.
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我們全部人都好緊張。
06:41
"Why does she want to meet us?"
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「她為什麼想去見我們呢?」
06:44
And then she was nervous.
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接著, 她也十分緊張
06:46
"Why did we want to meet her?"
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「為什麼我們會想去見她呢?」
06:48
What did we want from each other?
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我們大家想在對方身上得到些什麼呢?
06:52
Before we knew each others' names, or anything,
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在我們知道大家的名字或是其他東西之前，
06:55
we had embraced and wept.
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我們已經相擁而哭了。
06:57
Then we sat in a circle
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在那些曾經經歷過和解的人的協助之下,
07:00
with support, with help,
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讓我們在互相支持和幫助的
07:02
from people experienced in this kind of reconciliation.
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圍坐在一圈
07:06
And Aicha started,
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由Aicha 開始，
07:08
and she said,
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她說：
07:10
"I don't know if my son
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「我不知道我的兒子
07:13
is guilty or innocent,
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是有罪還是無罪，
07:15
but I want to tell you how sorry I am
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但我想告訴你, 我是怎樣的難過
07:18
for what happened to your families.
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為著你家中所發生的事情。
07:23
I know what it is to suffer,
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我知道這是怎樣的難受
07:26
and I feel that if there is a crime,
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我認為, 如果這是一個罪行
07:30
a person should be tried fairly and punished."
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那個人應該得到公平的審判及懲罸。」
07:35
But she reached out to us in that way,
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她就是這樣的接觸我們。
07:39
and it was, I'd like to say, it was an ice-breaker.
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這是, 我會說這是一個破冰的過程。
07:43
And what happened then is we all told our stories,
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接著發生的事, 我們每人都說了自己的故事，
07:47
and we all connected as human beings.
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我們都作為人而被連繫著。
07:49
By the end of the afternoon --
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在那個下午完結的時候---
07:51
it was about three hours after lunch --
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大概是午餐後的三小時---
07:55
we'd felt as if we'd known each other forever.
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我們都感到好像大家已經認識了很久。
07:57
Now what I learned from her,
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從她身上我學習到，
07:59
is a woman, not only who could be so generous
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作為一個女人, 不單止是她可以如此的寬容
08:02
under these present circumstances
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即使在那時的處境
08:04
and what it was then,
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以及往後的日子,
08:06
and what was being done to her son,
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和所有在她兒子身上所發生的,
08:08
but the life she's had.
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而這就是她所經歷的人生。
08:10
I never had met
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我從來沒有遇過
08:12
someone with such a hard life,
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別人有著如她一樣的刻苦的人生，
08:14
from such a totally different culture and environment from my own.
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並且是來自一個跟自己全然不同的文化和環境。
08:19
And I feel
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我感到
08:21
that we have
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我們有一種
08:23
a special connection,
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很特別的連繫，
08:25
which I value very much.
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這是我非常珍惜的。
08:27
And I think it's all about
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我想
08:30
being afraid of the other,
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由互相害怕，
08:32
but making that step
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但走了這樣一步
08:35
and then realizing, "Hey, this wasn't so hard.
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接著發現, 「啊, 這也不是很困難。
08:38
Who else can I meet that I don't know,
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還有那個我不認識的人
08:40
or that I'm so different from?"
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或是跟我很不一樣的人, 我不可以跟他見面呢?」
08:44
So, Aicha,
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所以, Aicha
08:46
do you have a couple of words
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你可有些說話
08:48
for conclusion?
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去做總結
08:50
Because our time is up.
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因為我們的時間到了
08:52
(Laughter)
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笑聲
09:00
(Translator) AW: I wanted to say
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〈傳譯〉AW:我想說
09:02
that we have to try to know other people, the other.
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我們都努力嘗試去認識其他人。
09:08
You have to be generous,
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我們都要寬容,
09:10
and your hearts must be generous,
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你的心也要寬容,
09:12
your mind must be generous.
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你的心念也要寬容。
09:15
You must be tolerant.
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你一定要堅忍,
09:20
You have to fight against violence.
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你要去反抗暴力。
09:26
And I hope that someday we'll all live together
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我希望有一天, 我們都能夠
09:29
in peace and respecting each other.
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以和平以及尊重活在一起。
09:32
This is what I wanted to say.
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這是我想說的。
09:34
(Applause)
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掌聲
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Aicha el-Wafi + Phyllis Rodriguez - 9/11 mothersAicha el-Wafi and Phyllis Rodriguez met around a shared tragedy -- and their friendship has become a powerful symbol for forgiveness and dialogue.
Why you should listen
Phyllis Rodriguez is an artist, a teacher and a social justice activist. On September 11, 2001, her son Greg died in the attacks on the World Trade Center. Rodriguez and her husband wrote an open letter, "Not in Our Son's Name," calling on President Bush to oppose a military response in Afghanistan.
Aicha el-Wafi is an activist with the French feminist group Ni Putes Ni Soumise, working with Muslim women. Her son, Zacarias Moussaoui, was tried in relation to the attacks on US soil, and faced the possibility of execution if convicted.
In November 2002, Phyllis Rodriguez and several other relatives of victims of the attacks were invited to meet Aicha el-Wafi. Rodriguez and el-Wafi have since appeared together throughout Europe and the US, telling their story of reconciliation and forgiveness.
Aicha el-Wafi + Phyllis Rodriguez | Speaker | TED.com