TED2011
Dan Ariely: Beware conflicts of interest
Dens Arielijs: Uzmanieties no interešu konfliktiem
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Šajā īsajā runā psihologs Dens Arielijs stāsta divus stāstus no savas pieredzes, kuros atklājas interešu konflikti: kā īstermiņa personīgie mērķi var ietekmēt, apzināti vai neapzināti, zināšanu un izpratnes veidošanos. Domājot par nozīmīgiem jautājumiem, viņš mums atgādina uzmanīties no mūsu "pārāk" cilvēcīgajām smadzenēm.
Dan Ariely - Behavioral economist
The dismal science of economics is not as firmly grounded in actual behavior as was once supposed. In "Predictably Irrational," Dan Ariely told us why. Full bio
The dismal science of economics is not as firmly grounded in actual behavior as was once supposed. In "Predictably Irrational," Dan Ariely told us why. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:16
So, I was in the hospital for a long time.
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Ilgu laiku es atrados slimnīcā.
00:19
And a few years after I left, I went back,
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Un pāris gadus, pēc tam, kad biju jau izveseļojies, es atgriezos
00:22
and the chairman of the burn department was very excited to see me --
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un apdeguma nodaļas vadītājs bija ļoti priecīgs mani redzēt,
00:25
said, "Dan, I have a fantastic new treatment for you."
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viņš teica: "Den, man Jums ir satriecoša jauna terapija!"
00:28
I was very excited. I walked with him to his office.
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Es biju ļoti priecīgs. Mēs iegājām viņa kabinetā.
00:30
And he explained to me that, when I shave,
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Un viņš man skaidroja, ka man pēc skūšanās
00:33
I have little black dots on the left side of my face where the hair is,
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uz sejas kreisās puses apmatojuma daļas paliek mazi, melni punktiņi,
00:36
but on the right side of my face
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bet uz labās sejas puses
00:38
I was badly burned so I have no hair,
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man bija stiprs apdegums, tāpēc tur neauga apmatojums
00:40
and this creates lack of symmetry.
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un tas radīja asimetriju.
00:42
And what's the brilliant idea he had?
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Un kas bija tā viņa satriecošā ideja?
00:44
He was going to tattoo little black dots
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Viņš grasījās ietetovēt mazus, melnus punktiņus
00:46
on the right side of my face
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sejas labajā pusē,
00:49
and make me look very symmetric.
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padarot manu izskatu ļoti simetrisku.
00:51
It sounded interesting. He asked me to go and shave.
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Tas izklausījās interesanti. Viņš aicināja mani noskūties.
00:54
Let me tell you, this was a strange way to shave,
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Atzīšu, ka tā bija ļoti dīvaina skūšanās reize,
00:56
because I thought about it
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jo es par to domāju
00:58
and I realized that the way I was shaving then
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un sapratu, ka tas, kā es skūšos tajā reizē
01:00
would be the way I would shave for the rest of my life --
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noteiks to, kā man būs jāskujas visu atlikušo mūžu,
01:02
because I had to keep the width the same.
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jo man būtu jāsaglabā vienāds platums.
01:04
When I got back to his office,
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Kad es atgriezos viņa kabinetā,
01:06
I wasn't really sure.
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es nebiju īsti drošs.
01:08
I said, "Can I see some evidence for this?"
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Es vaicāju, "Vai es varu redzēt kā tas izskatīsies?"
01:10
So he showed me some pictures
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Viņš man parādīja dažus attēlus
01:12
of little cheeks with little black dots --
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ar maziem vaigiem, uz kuriem bija mazi, melni punktiņi —
01:14
not very informative.
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ne pārāk skaidrojoši.
01:16
I said, "What happens when I grow older and my hair becomes white?
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Es prasīju: "Kas notiks, kad es kļūšu vecāks un apmatojums būs gaišāks?
01:18
What would happen then?"
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Kas notiks tad?"
01:20
"Oh, don't worry about it," he said.
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"Par to neuztraucieties," viņš teica.
01:22
"We have lasers; we can whiten it out."
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"Mums ir lāzeri; mēs varam tos izbalināt."
01:25
But I was still concerned,
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Bet es joprojām nebiju drošs,
01:27
so I said, "You know what, I'm not going to do it."
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tāpēc es teicu, "Ziniet ko, es tomēr to nedarīšu."
01:30
And then came one of the biggest guilt trips of my life.
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Un tad es piedzīvoju vienu no lielākajiem mēģinājumiem justies man vainīgam manā mūžā.
01:34
This is coming from a Jewish guy, all right, so that means a lot.
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Un to saka ebreju puisis, tātad, tas nozīmē ļoti daudz.
01:37
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
01:39
And he said, "Dan, what's wrong with you?
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Un viņš teica: "Den, kas Jums noticis?
01:42
Do you enjoy looking non-symmetric?
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Vai Jums patīk, ka Jūs izskatāties asimetriski?
01:44
Do you have some kind of perverted pleasure from this?
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Vai Jūs no tā gūstat kaut kāda veida samaitātu apmierinājumu?
01:49
Do women feel pity for you
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Vai sievietēm Jūs ir žēl
01:51
and have sex with you more frequently?"
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un tāpēc tās biežāk pārguļ ar Jums?"
01:54
None of those happened.
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Nekas no tā nenotika.
01:58
And this was very surprising to me,
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Un tas mani ļoti pārsteidza,
02:00
because I've gone through many treatments --
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jo esmu izgājis cauri dažādām terapijām
02:02
there were many treatments I decided not to do --
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un no daudzām terapijām atteicies,
02:04
and I never got this guilt trip to this extent.
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bet nekad man netika radīta šāda vainas sajūta.
02:06
But I decided not to have this treatment.
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Bet es izlēmu atteikties no šīs terapijas.
02:08
And I went to his deputy and asked him, "What was going on?
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Un aizgāju pie viņa vadītāja un jautāju: "Kas notiek?
02:10
Where was this guilt trip coming from?"
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Kāpēc šādas vainas apziņas radīšana?"
02:12
And he explained that they have done this procedure on two patients already,
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Un viņš paskaidroja, ka šo terapiju ir izmantojuši jau divi pacienti,
02:16
and they need the third patient for a paper they were writing.
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bet ir vajadzīgs trešais, lai uzrakstītu pētījumu.
02:19
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
02:21
Now you probably think that this guy's a schmuck.
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Jums droši vien šķiet, ka šis vīrs bija kretīns.
02:23
Right, that's what he seems like.
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Tiesa, tā tas varētu izskatīties no malas.
02:25
But let me give you a different perspective on the same story.
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Tomēr atļaujiet man piedāvāt citu skatījumu uz šo stāstu.
02:28
A few years ago, I was running some of my own experiments in the lab.
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Pirms pāris gadiem es veicu pats savu eksperimentu.
02:31
And when we run experiments,
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Un kad mēs veicam eksperimentus,
02:33
we usually hope that one group will behave differently than another.
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mēs parasti ceram, ka salīdzināmās grupas uzrādīs atšķirīgus rezultātus.
02:36
So we had one group that I hoped their performance would be very high,
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Tātad mums bija viena grupa, kur es cerēju, ka viņi uzrādīs ļoti labus rezultātus,
02:39
another group that I thought their performance would be very low,
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un otra grupa, kur es cerēju, ka rezultāti būs ļoti zemi.
02:42
and when I got the results, that's what we got --
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Un kad es saņēmu rezultātus, tas arī bija tas, kas bija noticis.
02:44
I was very happy -- aside from one person.
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Es biju ļoti priecīgs, izņemot par vienu cilvēku.
02:47
There was one person in the group
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Grupā, kurā bija jāparādās augstiem rezultātiem,
02:49
that was supposed to have very high performance
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bija cilvēks,
02:51
that was actually performing terribly.
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kurš uzrādīja ļoti zemus rezultātus.
02:53
And he pulled the whole mean down,
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Un viņa rezultāts novilka uz leju vidējo radītāju,
02:55
destroying my statistical significance of the test.
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izbojājot statistisko pierādījumu manam eksperiementam.
02:59
So I looked carefully at this guy.
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Tāpēc es ļoti uzmanīgi pētīju šo cilvēku.
03:01
He was 20-some years older than anybody else in the sample.
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Viņš bija 20 gadus vecāks par pārējiem cilvēkiem grupā.
03:04
And I remembered that the old and drunken guy
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Un es atceros, ka viens vecāks iedzēris puisis
03:06
came one day to the lab
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kādu dienu ienāca manā kabinetā,
03:08
wanting to make some easy cash
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jo gribēja viegli nopelnīt naudu,
03:10
and this was the guy.
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un šis bija tas cilvēks.
03:12
"Fantastic!" I thought. "Let's throw him out.
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"Lieliski!" es nodomāju. "Izņemam viņa rezultātu.
03:14
Who would ever include a drunken guy in a sample?"
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Kurš gan iekļautu pētījumā iedzērušu cilvēku?"
03:17
But a couple of days later,
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Bet pēc pāris dienām,
03:19
we thought about it with my students,
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mēs par šo domājām kopā ar maniem studentiem,
03:21
and we said, "What would have happened if this drunken guy was not in that condition?
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un mēs spriedām: "Kas gan būtu noticis, ja šis iedzērušais puisis būtu citā pārbaudījumā?
03:24
What would have happened if he was in the other group?
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Kas notiktu, ja viņš būtu otrā grupā?
03:26
Would we have thrown him out then?"
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Vai tad mēs būtu viņu izņēmuši no grupas?"
03:28
We probably wouldn't have looked at the data at all,
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Mēs droši vien vispār nebūtu skatījušies uz šiem datiem,
03:30
and if we did look at the data,
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bet, ja arī būtu,
03:32
we'd probably have said, "Fantastic! What a smart guy who is performing this low,"
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mēs droši vienu nopriecātos, "Lieliski! Kāds gudrs cilvēks, kurš tomēr uzrāda zemus rezultātus,"
03:35
because he would have pulled the mean of the group lower,
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jo viņš būtu pavilcis zemāk otras grupas vidējo rādītāju,
03:37
giving us even stronger statistical results than we could.
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nodrošinot vēl pārliecinošākus pierādījumus.
03:41
So we decided not to throw the guy out and to rerun the experiment.
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Tāpēc mēs izlēmām neizslēgt šo cilvēku no grupas, bet veikt eksperimentu atkārtoti.
03:44
But you know, these stories,
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Bet ziniet, šie stāsti
03:47
and lots of other experiments that we've done on conflicts of interest,
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un daudzi citi eksperimenti, kuri pēta interešu konfliktus,
03:50
basically kind of bring two points
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pamatā izceļ
03:52
to the foreground for me.
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divas lietas.
03:54
The first one is that in life we encounter many people
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Pirmkārt, dzīves laikā mēs sastopam daudzus cilvēkus,
03:57
who, in some way or another,
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kuri vienā vai otrā veidā
04:00
try to tattoo our faces.
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grib notetovēt mūsu sejas.
04:02
They just have the incentives that get them to be blinded to reality
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Viņiem vienkārši ir pamudinājums neredzēt īstenību
04:05
and give us advice that is inherently biased.
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un dot mums subjektīvus padomus.
04:08
And I'm sure that it's something that we all recognize,
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Un es esmu pārliecināts, ka mēs visi to atpazīstam,
04:10
and we see that it happens.
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mēs esam redzējuši, ka tā notiek.
04:12
Maybe we don't recognize it every time,
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Varbūt ne katru reizi mēs to pamanām,
04:14
but we understand that it happens.
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bet mēs saprotam, ka tas tā notiek.
04:16
The most difficult thing, of course, is to recognize
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Pati grūtākā lieta, protams, ir atpazīt,
04:18
that sometimes we too
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ka dažreiz arī mēs
04:20
are blinded by our own incentives.
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neesam objektīvi savu interešu dēļ.
04:22
And that's a much, much more difficult lesson to take into account.
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Un tā ir daudz, daudz grūtāka mācība, ko paturēt prātā,
04:25
Because we don't see how conflicts of interest work on us.
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jo mēs neredzam kā interešu konflikti mūs ietekmē.
04:29
When I was doing these experiments,
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Kad es veicu šos eksperimentus,
04:31
in my mind, I was helping science.
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es domāju, ka es palīdzu zinātnei.
04:33
I was eliminating the data
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Es izslēdzu datus,
04:35
to get the true pattern of the data to shine through.
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lai iegūtu patieso skaidrojumu.
04:37
I wasn't doing something bad.
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Es nedarīju neko sliktu.
04:39
In my mind, I was actually a knight
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Es domāju, ka patiesībā esmu kā varonis,
04:41
trying to help science move along.
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kas palīdz zinātnei attīstīties.
04:43
But this was not the case.
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Bet tas nebija tā.
04:45
I was actually interfering with the process with lots of good intentions.
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Patiesībā es iejaucos procesā ar daudziem labiem nodomiem.
04:48
And I think the real challenge is to figure out
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Un es uzskatu, ka īstais izaicinājums ir izdomāt
04:50
where are the cases in our lives
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kuri ir tie gadījumi mūsu dzīvēs,
04:52
where conflicts of interest work on us,
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kad esam iesaistīti interešu konfliktā,
04:54
and try not to trust our own intuition to overcome it,
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un mēģināt neticēt savai intuīcijai to pārvarēt,
04:57
but to try to do things
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bet mēģināt pielietot stratēģijas,
04:59
that prevent us from falling prey to these behaviors,
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lai neiekristu šīs uzvedības lamatās,
05:01
because we can create lots of undesirable circumstances.
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citādi mēs varam izraisīt daudzas nevēlamas sekas.
05:05
I do want to leave you with one positive thought.
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Tomēr es gribu pabeigt uz pozitīvas nots.
05:07
I mean, this is all very depressing, right --
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Citādi šī patiešām ir nomācoša lieta, vai ne —
05:09
people have conflicts of interest, we don't see it, and so on.
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cilvēkiem ir interešu konflikti, mēs tos neredzam un tā tālāk.
05:12
The positive perspective, I think, of all of this
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Tā pozitīvā lietā, manuprāt, no visa šī
05:14
is that, if we do understand when we go wrong,
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ir tāda, ja mēs saprotam, kad esam kļūdījušies,
05:17
if we understand the deep mechanisms
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un ja mēs saprotam šos stipros mehānismus,
05:19
of why we fail and where we fail,
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par to, kāpēc mēs kļūdāmies un kur mēs kļūdāmies,
05:21
we can actually hope to fix things.
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tad mēs varam patiesi cerēt to visu mainīt.
05:23
And that, I think, is the hope. Thank you very much.
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Un tas, manuprāt, ir cerīgi. Liels paldies!
05:25
(Applause)
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(Aplausi)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Dan Ariely - Behavioral economistThe dismal science of economics is not as firmly grounded in actual behavior as was once supposed. In "Predictably Irrational," Dan Ariely told us why.
Why you should listen
Dan Ariely is a professor of psychology and behavioral economics at Duke University and a founding member of the Center for Advanced Hindsight. He is the author of the bestsellers Predictably Irrational, The Upside of Irrationality, and The Honest Truth About Dishonesty -- as well as the TED Book Payoff: The Hidden Logic that Shapes Our Motivations.
Through his research and his (often amusing and unorthodox) experiments, he questions the forces that influence human behavior and the irrational ways in which we often all behave.
Dan Ariely | Speaker | TED.com