TEDSalon NY2014
Sebastian Junger: Why veterans miss war
Sebastian Junger: 老兵为何恋战
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老百姓不会怀念战争，而士兵却会。记者 Sebastian Junger 分享了他在雷斯特雷波（阿富汗科伦加尔山谷哨站，曾爆发激烈的战争）与美国士兵相处的经历。他认为战争“改变了人们的想法”，并解释了战争是如何在士兵中间建立起强烈的相互依存感。那说到底，难道是“战争的对立面”让士兵们感到怀念吗？
Sebastian Junger - Journalist and documentarian
The author of "The Perfect Storm" and the director of the documentaries "Restrepo" and "Korengal," Sebastian Junger tells non-fiction stories with grit and emotion. Full bio
The author of "The Perfect Storm" and the director of the documentaries "Restrepo" and "Korengal," Sebastian Junger tells non-fiction stories with grit and emotion. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
I'm going to ask and try to answer,
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接下来我会问一些而且也会回答一些
00:14
in some ways, kind of an uncomfortable question.
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令人感到不太舒服的问题
00:19
Both civilians, obviously, and soldiers
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很显然，不管是老百姓还是士兵
00:22
suffer in war;
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都深受战争之苦
00:24
I don't think any civilian has ever missed
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我觉得老百姓中不会有哪个人会想念
00:26
the war that they were subjected to.
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曾经经历过的战争
00:30
I've been covering wars for almost 20 years,
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20多年来我一直致力于战地报道
00:32
and one of the remarkable things for me
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有一件事让我感触很深
00:35
is how many soldiers find themselves missing it.
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那就是许多士兵会怀念战争
00:39
How is it someone can go through
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而当一个人
00:41
the worst experience imaginable,
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在经历了无法想象的艰难困苦之后
00:43
and come home, back to their home,
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终于回到故土，回到自己的家
00:45
and their family, their country, and miss the war?
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回到亲人中间，回到祖国之后，却怎么会怀念战争？
00:49
How does that work? What does it mean?
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这是为什么？这又意味着什么？
00:52
We have to answer that question,
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我们必须要回答这个问题
00:56
because if we don't, it'll be impossible
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因为不这样的话，就不能够
00:59
to bring soldiers back
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让士兵们重新融入
01:00
to a place in society where they belong,
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他们曾经生活的社会环境中
01:04
and I think it'll also be impossible to stop war,
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而且要想阻止战争
01:06
if we don't understand how that mechanism works.
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就必须知道这其中的道理
01:09
The problem is that war
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但是，关于战争有个问题
01:13
does not have a simple, neat truth,
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那就是没有一个简单、清楚的评述
01:17
one simple, neat truth.
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哪怕是一个这样的评述都没有
01:19
Any sane person hates war,
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任何一个有理智的人都厌恶战争
01:21
hates the idea of war,
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厌恶打仗这种想法
01:23
wouldn't want to have anything to do with it,
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不想与战争有任何干系
01:26
doesn't want to be near it,
doesn't want to know about it.
doesn't want to know about it.
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不想听，也不想知道
01:29
That's a sane response to war.
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这是对于战争应有的反应
01:32
But if I asked all of you in this room,
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但如果我问在座的各位
01:34
who here has paid money
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有没有花过钱
01:38
to go to a cinema
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去电影院
01:40
and be entertained by a Hollywood war movie,
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看精彩的好莱坞战争大片？
01:43
most of you would probably raise your hands.
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应该大多数人都会举手
01:47
That's what's so complicated about war.
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这就是为什么很难评说战争
01:49
And trust me, if a room full of peace-loving people
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而且我敢说，即使一群和平爱好者中间
01:53
finds something compelling about war,
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也不乏有人认为战争具有吸引力
01:56
so do 20-year-old soldiers
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更何况是对于一个20岁出头的小伙子
01:59
who have been trained in it, I promise you.
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经受了战争的洗礼，他更能感受战争的诱惑
02:02
That's the thing that has to be understood.
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我们必须要明白这一点
02:05
I've covered war for about 20 years, as I said,
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我从事战地报道20年
02:08
but my most intense experiences in combat
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记忆最深的当数
02:11
were with American soldiers in Afghanistan.
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和在阿富汗的美国士兵们在战场上出生入死的经历
02:15
I've been in Africa, the Middle East,
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我去过非洲、中东
02:16
Afghanistan in the '90s,
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早在90年代就去过阿富汗
02:18
but it was with American soldiers in 2007, 2008,
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但是和美国士兵在一起的经历是2007和08年
02:22
that I was confronted with
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当时，我参加了一场
02:25
very intense combat.
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非常激烈的战争
02:26
I was in a small valley called the Korengal Valley
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当时我在一个叫科伦加尔山谷的小村庄
02:28
in eastern Afghanistan.
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位于东阿富汗
02:31
It was six miles long.
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战线有六公里长
02:33
There were 150 men of
Battle Company in that valley,
Battle Company in that valley,
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当地的战地部队有150人
02:36
and for a while, while I was there,
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而且当时，也就是我在当地停留期间
02:40
almost 20 percent of all the combat
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将近百分之二十的战斗发生
02:42
in all of Afghanistan was happening
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发生在阿富汗全境中
02:44
in those six miles.
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这条6公里长的战线上
02:45
A hundred and fifty men were absorbing
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这150名士兵
02:48
almost a fifth of the combat for all of NATO forces
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参与了1/5的倾注了北约所有兵力的战斗
02:51
in the country, for a couple months.
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这些发生在阿富汗持续了几个月
02:54
It was very intense.
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战斗异常激烈
02:56
I spent most of my time at a small outpost
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我大部分的时间都是在一个
02:58
called Restrepo.
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叫雷斯特雷波的小哨站度过的。
02:59
It was named after the platoon medic
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这曾是一个野战排医疗兵的名字
03:01
that had been killed about two
months into the deployment.
months into the deployment.
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他在战地工作两个月后就牺牲了
03:04
It was a few plywood B-huts
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所谓的哨站就是几个胶合板搭建的兵舍
03:08
clinging to a side of a ridge,
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靠着山脊的一侧而建
03:12
and sandbags, bunkers, gun positions,
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还有沙袋、掩体和火力点
03:16
and there were 20 men up there
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那里总共有20个人
03:18
of Second Platoon, Battle Company.
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隶属战地连第二排
03:20
I spent most of my time up there.
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我在那儿度过了很长的时间
03:22
There was no running water.
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没有自来水
03:23
There was no way to bathe.
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没法洗澡
03:25
The guys were up there for a month at a time.
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士兵们在那儿一待就要待一个月
03:27
They never even got out of their clothes.
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从来没脱过衣服
03:29
They fought. The worked.
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不管是战斗、执行任务
03:31
They slept in the same clothes.
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还是睡觉，都穿着同样的衣服
03:33
They never took them off,
and at the end of the month,
and at the end of the month,
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他们从来不脱衣服，等到月底
03:35
they went back down to the company headquarters,
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他们被换下来回到大本营时
03:37
and by then, their clothes were unwearable.
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身上的衣服都不能穿了
03:39
They burned them and got a new set.
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他们就把衣服烧掉，再领一身新的
03:42
There was no Internet. There was no phone.
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那儿也没法上网，没有电话
03:43
There was no communication
with the outside world up there.
with the outside world up there.
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与外界完全失去联系
03:47
There was no cooked food.
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没有现做的食物
03:50
There was nothing up there
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没有任何
03:53
that young men typically like:
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年轻人可以喜欢的东西。
03:54
no cars, no girls, no television, nothing
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没车，没妞，没电视，什么都没有
03:58
except combat.
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除了战争
04:00
Combat they did learn to like.
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于是他们慢慢喜欢上了战争
04:04
I remember one day, it was a very hot day
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我记得有次，一个大热天
04:06
in the spring,
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还是春天
04:08
and we hadn't been in a fight
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当时我们都已经闲了
04:10
in a couple of weeks, maybe.
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大概好几个星期了
04:13
Usually, the outpost was attacked,
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通常，哨站会遭遇袭击
04:15
and we hadn't seen any
combat in a couple of weeks,
combat in a couple of weeks,
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但是当时已经有几周没有袭击了
04:18
and everyone was just stunned
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每个人都感到晕晕的
04:21
with boredom and heat.
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又无聊又热
04:23
And I remember the lieutenant walking past me
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然后我记得一个中尉从我身边走过
04:27
sort of stripped to the waist.
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光着上半身
04:29
It was incredibly hot.
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因为当时太热太热了
04:31
Stripped to the waist, walked past me muttering,
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他光着膀子走过，说：
04:34
"Oh God, please someone attack us today."
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“天哪，来次袭击吧。”
04:36
That's how bored they were.
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他们真是无聊到不行了
04:39
That's war too, is a lieutenant saying,
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但这也是战争的一部分，就像一个中尉说：
04:42
"Please make something happen
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“给我们点事儿干吧”
04:44
because we're going crazy."
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“我们这就要疯了”
04:46
To understand that,
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要理解他们的想法
04:49
you have to, for a moment,
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你必须临时
04:51
think about combat not morally --
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从非道德的角度思考一下战争
04:53
that's an important job to do —
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这很重要
04:55
but for a moment, don't think about it morally,
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只是临时地，不从道德的角度
04:57
think about it neurologically.
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而是神经学的角度
05:00
Let's think about what happens in your brain
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大家现在想一下
05:02
when you're in combat.
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当你身处在战争中时，你脑子里会想些什么
05:04
First of all, the experience
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首先，这种经历
05:07
is very bizarre, it's a very bizarre one.
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是很奇怪的，非常非常奇怪
05:11
It's not what I had expected.
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我之前从来没有想到过
05:14
Usually, you're not scared.
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通常你不会感到害怕
05:16
I've been very scared in combat,
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我曾经害怕过
05:18
but most of the time when I was out there,
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但大多数时候我在那儿
05:20
I wasn't scared.
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是不感到害怕的
05:21
I was very scared beforehand
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去之前害怕过
05:23
and incredibly scared afterwards,
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回来之后也后怕
05:25
and that fear that comes afterwards can last years.
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这种后怕能持续几年的时间
05:27
I haven't been shot at in six years,
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我已经有6年的时间没暴露在枪林弹雨细下了
05:29
and I was woken up very abruptly this morning
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但是今天早上我猛然的惊醒
05:32
by a nightmare that I was being strafed by aircraft,
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就是因为我梦到我被战机扫射
05:35
six years later.
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这都过了6年了
05:36
I've never even been strafed by aircraft,
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我从没被战机扫射过
05:38
and I was having nightmares about it.
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但做梦却梦到了
05:41
Time slows down.
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时间慢了下来
05:43
You get this weird tunnel vision.
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你的视角变得狭窄
05:45
You notice some details very, very, very accurately
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能异常敏锐地注意到细枝末节的事情
05:49
and other things drop out.
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对其他事情置之不理
05:51
It's almost a slightly altered state of mind.
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这种思维方式可以说起了一定的变化
05:54
What's happening in your brain
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你的大脑
05:55
is you're getting an enormous amount of adrenaline
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由于异常多的肾上腺素而受到过多刺激
05:58
pumped through your system.
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这些刺激扩散到整个体内
06:00
Young men will go to great lengths
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年轻人对这种刺激
06:02
to have that experience.
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的感受更加深刻
06:05
It's wired into us.
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这种感觉输入到我们体内
06:08
It's hormonally supported.
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伴随着激素的作用
06:11
The mortality rate for young men in society
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社会上，年轻男性的死亡率
06:15
is six times what it is for young women
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是女性的6倍
06:18
from violence and from accidents,
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不管是因为暴力，还是意外
06:19
just the stupid stuff that young men do:
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反正就是年轻人喜欢干的那些蠢事
06:22
jumping off of things they shouldn't jump off of,
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从不该跳的地方跳了下去
06:24
lighting things on fire they shouldn't light on fire,
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把不该点的东西点着了
06:26
I mean, you know what I'm talking about.
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总之你懂得
06:29
They die at six times the rate
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年轻男性的死亡率
06:31
that young women do.
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6倍于年轻女性
06:32
Statistically, you are safer as a teenage boy,
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从数字上来说，一个小伙子
06:36
you would be safer in the fire department
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如果呆在美国城市里的消防队
06:39
or the police department in most American cities
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或者警察局
06:41
than just walking around the
streets of your hometown
streets of your hometown
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会比在老家的街上闲逛、
找事情干，要安全得多
06:44
looking for something to do,
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这仅仅是从数字的角度看
06:46
statistically.
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06:49
You can imagine how that plays out in combat.
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你可以想象一下如果是在战争中这是不是也是一样
06:52
At Restrepo, every guy up there was almost killed,
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在雷斯特雷波，几乎每个人都命悬一线
06:55
including me,
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包括我在内
06:57
including my good friend Tim Hetherington,
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包括我的好朋友蒂姆·赫瑟林顿
06:59
who was later killed in Libya.
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他后来在利比亚牺牲了
07:02
There were guys walking around
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那里的士兵
07:03
with bullet holes in their uniforms,
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穿着被子弹打穿的制服
07:05
rounds that had cut through the fabric
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子弹打穿了布料
07:07
and didn't touch their bodies.
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没碰到他们的身体
07:10
I was leaning against some sandbags one morning,
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一天早上，我靠着沙袋站在那儿
07:13
not much going on, sort of spacing out,
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没事可干，正想什么想得出神
07:16
and some sand was kicked into the side of,
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这时一些沙子飞起
07:20
sort of hit the side of my face.
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打在了我的侧脸上
07:23
Something hit the side of my face,
and I didn't know what it was.
and I didn't know what it was.
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我感觉到有东西打在我脸上，但是不知道是什么
07:25
You have to understand about bullets
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你应该知道子弹这玩意儿
07:26
that they go a lot faster than sound,
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它飞起来比声音还要快
07:28
so if someone shoots at you
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如果有人朝你开枪
07:30
from a few hundred meters,
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射程也就几百米的话
07:32
the bullet goes by you, or hits you obviously,
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子弹或者与你擦肩而过，或者击中你
07:35
half a second or so before
the sound catches up to it.
the sound catches up to it.
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而枪声半秒之后才会传来
07:38
So I had some sand sprayed in the side of my face.
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所以当我感到有沙子打到我的侧脸上时
07:40
Half a second later, I heard dut-dut-dut-dut-duh.
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半秒之后，我听到了突突突突的枪声
07:42
It was machine gun fire.
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这是机关枪的声音
07:43
It was the first round, the first burst
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这是第一轮袭击
07:46
of an hour-long firefight.
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枪战维持了一个小时之久
07:49
What had happened was the bullet hit,
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刚开始我感觉到的飞来的沙子应该是子弹溅起的
07:52
a bullet hit three or four inches
from the side of my head.
from the side of my head.
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这颗子弹隔着三四英尺从我脑袋边飞过
07:55
Imagine, just think about it, because I certainly did,
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想象一下，其实我后来也的确想了
08:00
think about the angle of deviation that saved my life.
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就是这点偏差救了我一命
08:02
At 400 meters, it missed me by three inches.
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400米开外射来的子弹，3英尺的偏差，没有击中我
08:04
Just think about the math on that.
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想想这些数字吧
08:09
Every guy up there
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那里的每个士兵
08:11
had some experience like that,
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都曾有过这样的经历
08:12
at least once, if not many times.
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如果不是几次的话那至少也有一次
08:16
The boys are up there for a year.
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这些年轻人在那儿待了一年之后
08:18
They got back.
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然后回家
08:20
Some of them got out of the Army
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一些人复员之后回到家时
08:22
and had tremendous psychological
problems when they got home.
problems when they got home.
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心理上还有严重的问题
08:24
Some of them stayed in the Army
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一些人继续留在军队
08:26
and were more or less okay, psychologically.
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心理状况稍微好些
08:29
I was particularly close to a
guy named Brendan O'Byrne.
guy named Brendan O'Byrne.
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我和一个叫布伦丹·欧博恩的小伙子走得很近
08:32
I'm still very good friends with him.
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我们现在也还是好朋友
08:34
He came back to the States. He got out of the Army.
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他回到美国之后离开了部队
08:37
I had a dinner party one night.
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一次，我举办了个晚宴
08:39
I invited him,
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邀请了他
08:41
and he started talking with a woman,
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在晚宴上他和一位女士交谈
08:45
one of my friends,
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这位女士也是我的朋友
08:46
and she knew how bad it had been out there,
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她知道战地生活的险恶
08:49
and she said, "Brendan,
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她说：“布伦丹，
08:51
is there anything at all that you miss about
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在阿富汗打仗
08:54
being out in Afghanistan, about the war?"
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有没有什么让你怀恋的？”
08:58
And he thought about it quite a long time,
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他想了很久
09:01
and finally he said, "Ma'am, I miss almost all of it."
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最后说：“太太，我怀念那里所有的一切。”
09:06
And he's one of the most traumatized people
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他是我见过的经历了战争的人中
09:09
I've seen from that war.
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受创伤最为严重的人之一
09:13
"Ma'am, I miss almost all of it."
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他说的这句“太太，我怀念那里所有的一切。”
09:15
What is he talking about?
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他是想表达什么呢？
09:18
He's not a psychopath.
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他不是神经病
09:21
He doesn't miss killing people.
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也不喜欢杀人
09:23
He's not crazy. He doesn't miss getting shot at
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没有疯，也不喜欢被枪击中
09:25
and seeing his friends get killed.
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看到朋友牺牲
09:27
What is it that he misses? We have to answer that.
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那他怀念的是什么？这个问题我要来回答
09:31
If we're going to stop war, we
have to answer that question.
have to answer that question.
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如果想要阻止战争发生，我们就必须回答这个问题
09:37
I think what he missed is brotherhood.
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我认为，他怀念的是兄弟情谊
09:42
He missed, in some ways,
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从某种程度上说，他怀念的
09:44
the opposite of killing.
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是杀戮的对立面
09:46
What he missed was connection
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是他与其它士兵之间的
09:48
to the other men he was with.
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联系
09:50
Now, brotherhood is different from friendship.
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这里，兄弟情谊不同于友谊
09:53
Friendship happens in society, obviously.
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友谊多见于社会上
09:57
The more you like someone,
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你越喜欢一个人
09:58
the more you'd be willing to do for them.
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你越情愿为他付出
10:00
Brotherhood has nothing to do
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但是兄弟情谊却与
10:02
with how you feel about the other person.
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对他人的感觉无关
10:05
It's a mutual agreement in a group
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在一个群体中
10:08
that you will put the welfare of the group,
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大家都会把整个群体的安危
10:10
you will put the safety of everyone in the group
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他人的安危
10:12
above your own.
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置于自己的安危之上
10:14
In effect, you're saying,
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实际上就相当于说
10:18
"I love these other people more than I love myself."
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”我爱其他人胜过爱自己“
10:23
Brendan was a team leader
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布伦丹是一名队长
10:25
in command of three men,
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手下有三个士兵
10:26
and the worst day in Afghanistan —
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他在阿富汗经历了最惨痛的一天
10:30
He was almost killed so many times.
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虽然他自己也几次险些丧生
10:33
It didn't bother him.
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但这些对他都不算什么
10:34
The worst thing that happened to him in Afghanistan
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对他来说最惨痛的是
10:37
was one of his men was hit in the head with a bullet
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他手下的一名士兵被子弹射中头部
10:39
in the helmet, knocked him over.
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子弹打到了钢盔上，把他冲倒了
10:44
They thought he was dead.
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大家以为他死了
10:45
It was in the middle of a huge firefight.
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当时战事正酣
10:46
No one could deal with it, and a minute later,
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没人顾得上他，直到一分钟以后
10:48
Kyle Steiner sat back up
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这名叫凯尔·斯坦纳的士兵坐了起来
10:51
from the dead, as it were,
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好像是复活了一样
10:52
because he'd come back to consciousness.
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因为他又恢复了知觉
10:54
The bullet had just knocked him out.
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子弹把他震晕了
10:56
It glanced off the helmet.
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钢盔替他挡住了子弹
10:58
He remembers people saying,
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他记得
11:00
as he was sort of half-conscious,
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在他处于半清醒状态时
11:01
he remembers people saying,
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听到人们说：
11:05
"Steiner's been hit in the head. Steiner's dead."
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“斯坦纳被射中了头部。斯坦纳死了。”
11:07
And he was thinking, "I'm not dead."
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他想：“我没死。”
11:08
And he sat up.
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于是坐了起来
11:10
And Brendan realized after that
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之后布伦丹意识到
11:12
that he could not protect his men,
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自己没能保护自己的手下
11:14
and that was the only time he cried in Afghanistan,
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在阿富汗那么久，他第一次哭了
11:16
was realizing that.
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因为他意识到没能保护他的战士
11:19
That's brotherhood.
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这就是兄弟情谊
11:22
This wasn't invented recently.
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这不是什么新词
11:24
Many of you have probably read "The Iliad."
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在座的应该都读过《伊利亚特》
11:27
Achilles surely would have risked his life
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阿喀琉斯宁可牺牲自己
11:29
or given his life to save his friend Patroclus.
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也要保护他的朋友普特罗克勒斯
11:34
In World War II, there were many stories
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在二战期间，也有许多故事
11:36
of soldiers who were wounded,
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关于受伤士兵的故事
11:40
were brought to a rear base hospital,
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他们被送去后方战地医院
11:42
who went AWOL,
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可是他们会逃跑
11:43
crawled out of windows, slipped out doors,
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爬墙穿门
11:45
went AWOL, wounded,
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即使身负重伤
11:49
to make their way back to the front lines
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也要回到战场
11:50
to rejoin their brothers out there.
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回到战士们中间
11:53
So you think about Brendan,
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所以想到布伦丹
11:55
you think about all these soldiers
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就能想到这些战士
11:59
having an experience like that, a bond like that,
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他们有着这样的经历，彼此之间建立起重要的纽带
12:01
in a small group,
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在一个小群体中
12:03
where they loved 20 other people
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关心着其他20个人
12:05
in some ways more than they loved themselves,
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胜过关心自己
12:08
you think about how good that would feel, imagine it,
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可以想象一下这是一种怎样的经历
12:13
and they are blessed with that experience for a year,
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他们有幸能有这样的经历
12:18
and then they come home,
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后来回到家中
12:19
and they are just back in society
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回到社会中
12:22
like the rest of us are,
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像我们普通人一样
12:25
not knowing who they can count on,
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不知道自己可以依赖谁
12:28
not knowing who loves them, who they can love,
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不知道谁关心自己，也不知道有谁值得自己关心
12:33
not knowing exactly what anyone they know
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不知道那些自己熟悉的人
12:35
would do for them if it came down to it.
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在自己倒下时会作何反应
12:38
That is terrifying.
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这是很恐怖的事情
12:41
Compared to that,
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相比之下
12:43
war, psychologically, in some ways, is easy,
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从心理上说，战争是很简单的
12:47
compared to that kind of alienation.
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没有这种陌生感
12:50
That's why they miss it,
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这就是为什么老兵会恋战
12:51
and that's what we have to understand
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我们必须要理解这种陌生感
12:54
and in some ways fix in our society.
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并且尝试找到办法去回应这一问题
12:57
Thank you very much.
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谢谢大家
（掌声）
13:00
(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Sebastian Junger - Journalist and documentarianThe author of "The Perfect Storm" and the director of the documentaries "Restrepo" and "Korengal," Sebastian Junger tells non-fiction stories with grit and emotion.
Why you should listen
Sebastian Junger thundered onto the media landscape with his non-fiction book, The Perfect Storm. A correspondent for Vanity Fair and ABC News, Junger has covered stories all across the globe, igniting a new interest in non-fiction. One of his main interests: war.
From 2007 to 2008, Junger and photographer Tim Hetherington embedded with the 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team in Afghanistan. They spent intensive time with the soldiers at the Restrepo outpost in the Korengal Valley, which saw more combat than any other part of Afghanistan. The experience became Junger's book WAR, and the documentary "Restrepo," which was nominated for the Academy Award for Best Documentary in 2011.
Junger and Hetherington planned to make a second documentary on the topic, "Korengal," meant to help soldiers and civilians alike understand the fear, courage and complexity involved in combat. It's a project that Junger decided to carry on after Hetherington was killed in Libya while covering the civil war there. Junger self-financed and released the film.
Sebastian Junger | Speaker | TED.com