TEDSalon NY2014
Sebastian Junger: Why veterans miss war
塞巴斯汀．榮格: 退役軍人為何懷念戰爭
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老百姓不會懷念戰爭，士兵卻經常會。記者塞巴斯汀．榮格分享他在雷斯特雷波──曾爆發激烈戰爭的阿富汗卡林哥谷地哨站──與美國士兵相處的經歷。他述說戰爭如何讓士兵們感受到強烈的情感聯繫，並帶領我們一瞥因戰爭而改變的心智。這麼說，會不會其實是「戰爭的另一面」讓士兵們感到懷念呢？
Sebastian Junger - Journalist and documentarian
The author of "The Perfect Storm" and the director of the documentaries "Restrepo" and "Korengal," Sebastian Junger tells non-fiction stories with grit and emotion. Full bio
The author of "The Perfect Storm" and the director of the documentaries "Restrepo" and "Korengal," Sebastian Junger tells non-fiction stories with grit and emotion. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
I'm going to ask and try to answer,
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我要問並且試著回答，
00:14
in some ways, kind of an uncomfortable question.
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從某種角度來說，敏感的問題。
00:19
Both civilians, obviously, and soldiers
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顯然，不管是百姓還是士兵
00:22
suffer in war;
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都深受戰爭之苦；
00:24
I don't think any civilian has ever missed
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我不認為有哪位平民百姓會想念
00:26
the war that they were subjected to.
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曾經經歷過的戰爭。
00:30
I've been covering wars for almost 20 years,
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我作戰爭報導 20 年，
00:32
and one of the remarkable things for me
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有件事讓我感觸很深，
00:35
is how many soldiers find themselves missing it.
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那就是許多士兵會懷念戰爭。
00:39
How is it someone can go through
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為什麼有人會
00:41
the worst experience imaginable,
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在如此慘烈的經歷後，
00:43
and come home, back to their home,
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返回故土、回到家，
00:45
and their family, their country, and miss the war?
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重回自己的家庭、國家，卻又懷念戰爭？
00:49
How does that work? What does it mean?
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這是為什麼？又意味什麼？
00:52
We have to answer that question,
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我們必須回答這個問題，
00:56
because if we don't, it'll be impossible
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因為若非如此，我們不可能
00:59
to bring soldiers back
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將士兵帶回到
01:00
to a place in society where they belong,
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他們所屬的社會中。
01:04
and I think it'll also be impossible to stop war,
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我們將無法阻止戰爭，
01:06
if we don't understand how that mechanism works.
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除非我們明白背後的道理。
01:09
The problem is that war
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問題在於，戰爭這檔事，
01:13
does not have a simple, neat truth,
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沒有一個簡單明瞭的真理可言，
01:17
one simple, neat truth.
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完全沒有。
01:19
Any sane person hates war,
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有理智的人都厭惡戰爭、
01:21
hates the idea of war,
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厭惡戰爭的概念、
01:23
wouldn't want to have anything to do with it,
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不想和戰爭扯上關係，
01:26
doesn't want to be near it,
doesn't want to know about it.
doesn't want to know about it.
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不想接觸也不想知道。
01:29
That's a sane response to war.
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這是對戰爭的正常反應。
01:32
But if I asked all of you in this room,
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但如果我問在座的各位，
01:34
who here has paid money
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有沒有花過錢
01:38
to go to a cinema
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去電影院
01:40
and be entertained by a Hollywood war movie,
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看好萊塢戰爭片當作娛樂，
01:43
most of you would probably raise your hands.
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多數人應該都會舉手。
01:47
That's what's so complicated about war.
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戰爭就是如此複雜。
01:49
And trust me, if a room full of peace-loving people
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如果一群和平愛好者
01:53
finds something compelling about war,
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都可以感受戰爭吸引人之處，
01:56
so do 20-year-old soldiers
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更不用說受過專門訓練、
01:59
who have been trained in it, I promise you.
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血氣方剛的 20 歲小伙子。
02:02
That's the thing that has to be understood.
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我們必須明白這一點。
02:05
I've covered war for about 20 years, as I said,
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我作戰爭報導 20 年，
02:08
but my most intense experiences in combat
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在戰地最深刻的記憶當數
02:11
were with American soldiers in Afghanistan.
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和阿富汗的美國士兵共處的那段時光。
02:15
I've been in Africa, the Middle East,
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我去過非洲、中東，
02:16
Afghanistan in the '90s,
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90 年代去過阿富汗，
02:18
but it was with American soldiers in 2007, 2008,
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但和美國士兵一起的經歷是 2007、2008 年。
02:22
that I was confronted with
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當時，我參與了一場
02:25
very intense combat.
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非常激烈的戰役。
02:26
I was in a small valley called the Korengal Valley
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我當時在一個叫卡林哥的谷地，
02:28
in eastern Afghanistan.
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位於東阿富汗。
02:31
It was six miles long.
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谷地有六英里長。
02:33
There were 150 men of
Battle Company in that valley,
Battle Company in that valley,
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在那有 150 人的戰鬥連隊。
02:36
and for a while, while I was there,
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曾有那麼一陣子，
我還在那的時候，
我還在那的時候，
02:40
almost 20 percent of all the combat
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阿富汗全境的戰爭
02:42
in all of Afghanistan was happening
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有百分之二十
02:44
in those six miles.
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就發生在這六英里內。
02:45
A hundred and fifty men were absorbing
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150 名士兵承受著
02:48
almost a fifth of the combat for all of NATO forces
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北約在阿富汗五分之一的戰鬥，
02:51
in the country, for a couple months.
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為期數月。
02:54
It was very intense.
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戰爭非常激烈。
02:56
I spent most of my time at a small outpost
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我大部分的時間在一個
叫雷斯特雷波的小哨站度過。
02:58
called Restrepo.
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02:59
It was named after the platoon medic
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這名稱是為紀念一位醫護兵，
03:01
that had been killed about two
months into the deployment.
months into the deployment.
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他被部署到戰地兩個月就犧牲了。
03:04
It was a few plywood B-huts
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哨站是個膠合板搭成的簡陋兵舍，
03:08
clinging to a side of a ridge,
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依著山脊的一側而建，
03:12
and sandbags, bunkers, gun positions,
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還有沙袋、掩體、散兵坑。
03:16
and there were 20 men up there
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那裡有 20 個人，
03:18
of Second Platoon, Battle Company.
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隸屬戰鬥連第二排。
03:20
I spent most of my time up there.
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我在那度過大部分的時間。
03:22
There was no running water.
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沒有流動水源。
03:23
There was no way to bathe.
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洗澡是奢望。
03:25
The guys were up there for a month at a time.
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士兵們在那一待就是一個月。
03:27
They never even got out of their clothes.
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他們甚至衣服都不脫。
03:29
They fought. The worked.
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戰鬥、出任務、
03:31
They slept in the same clothes.
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睡覺都穿同一套衣服。
03:33
They never took them off,
and at the end of the month,
and at the end of the month,
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他們從不脫衣服，到月底，
03:35
they went back down to the company headquarters,
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他們回到總部時，
03:37
and by then, their clothes were unwearable.
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身上的衣服都不能穿了。
03:39
They burned them and got a new set.
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他們就燒掉它，領一套新的。
03:42
There was no Internet. There was no phone.
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那裡沒有網路、沒有電話、
03:43
There was no communication
with the outside world up there.
with the outside world up there.
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沒有對外的聯繫、
03:47
There was no cooked food.
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沒有現做的食物、
03:50
There was nothing up there
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沒有任何
03:53
that young men typically like:
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年輕人喜歡的東西：
03:54
no cars, no girls, no television, nothing
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沒車、沒妞、沒電視，什麼都沒有。
03:58
except combat.
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除了戰鬥。
04:00
Combat they did learn to like.
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他們因此被訓練成喜歡戰鬥。
04:04
I remember one day, it was a very hot day
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我記得有次，一個大熱天，
04:06
in the spring,
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還是春天，
04:08
and we hadn't been in a fight
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我們已經沒事做
04:10
in a couple of weeks, maybe.
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大概幾星期時間了。
04:13
Usually, the outpost was attacked,
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哨站通常都會遭受攻擊，
04:15
and we hadn't seen any
combat in a couple of weeks,
combat in a couple of weeks,
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但是當時已經幾週沒遇到攻擊了，
04:18
and everyone was just stunned
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每個人都閒得發慌、
04:21
with boredom and heat.
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熱得發昏。
04:23
And I remember the lieutenant walking past me
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我記得一個中尉從我身邊走過，
04:27
sort of stripped to the waist.
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打著赤膊。
04:29
It was incredibly hot.
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當時真的很熱。
04:31
Stripped to the waist, walked past me muttering,
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他光著膀子走過，咕噥著：
04:34
"Oh God, please someone attack us today."
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「天哪，來次襲擊吧！」
04:36
That's how bored they were.
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他們已經無聊到不行了。
04:39
That's war too, is a lieutenant saying,
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這也是戰爭的一部分，就像個中尉說：
04:42
"Please make something happen
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「拜託給我們點事做，
04:44
because we're going crazy."
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不然我們要瘋了。」
04:46
To understand that,
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要理解他們的想法，
04:49
you have to, for a moment,
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你必須暫時
04:51
think about combat not morally --
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以非道德的角度思考一下戰爭。
04:53
that's an important job to do —
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這很重要。
04:55
but for a moment, don't think about it morally,
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只是暫時地，不從道德角度，
04:57
think about it neurologically.
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而是從神經學的角度。
05:00
Let's think about what happens in your brain
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大家想一下，你在戰鬥中，
05:02
when you're in combat.
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你的腦子裡會發生什麼事？
05:04
First of all, the experience
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首先，這種體驗
05:07
is very bizarre, it's a very bizarre one.
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是很奇異的，簡直非同尋常。
05:11
It's not what I had expected.
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是我從來沒預料到的。
05:14
Usually, you're not scared.
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通常你並不會感到害怕。
05:16
I've been very scared in combat,
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戰鬥時我也曾感到非常害怕過，
05:18
but most of the time when I was out there,
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但大多數時候我在那，
05:20
I wasn't scared.
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是不害怕的。
05:21
I was very scared beforehand
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去之前害怕過，
05:23
and incredibly scared afterwards,
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回來之後也害怕，
05:25
and that fear that comes afterwards can last years.
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這種恐懼能持續好幾年。
05:27
I haven't been shot at in six years,
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我已有六年沒在槍林彈雨下，
05:29
and I was woken up very abruptly this morning
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但今早我猛然驚醒，
05:32
by a nightmare that I was being strafed by aircraft,
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夢到我被戰機掃射。
05:35
six years later.
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都六年了。
05:36
I've never even been strafed by aircraft,
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我甚至沒被戰機掃射過，
05:38
and I was having nightmares about it.
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但我卻會做這樣的惡夢。
05:41
Time slows down.
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時間慢下來、
05:43
You get this weird tunnel vision.
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視野變得狹窄、
05:45
You notice some details very, very, very accurately
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異常敏銳地注意到一些細節
05:49
and other things drop out.
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而其他事被忽略。
05:51
It's almost a slightly altered state of mind.
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某種角度來說，改變人的心智。
05:54
What's happening in your brain
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大腦開始作動，
05:55
is you're getting an enormous amount of adrenaline
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腎上腺素被大量分泌，
05:58
pumped through your system.
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流經你的全身。
06:00
Young men will go to great lengths
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年輕人為了獲得這體驗，
06:02
to have that experience.
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可以做出許多瘋狂的事。
06:05
It's wired into us.
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這是個內建在身體的
06:08
It's hormonally supported.
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荷爾蒙調控機制。
06:11
The mortality rate for young men in society
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社會上，年輕男性的死亡率
06:15
is six times what it is for young women
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是年輕女性的六倍。
06:18
from violence and from accidents,
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死因是暴力或意外。
06:19
just the stupid stuff that young men do:
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反正就是年輕人愛幹的那些蠢事：
06:22
jumping off of things they shouldn't jump off of,
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從不該跳的地方跳下去、
06:24
lighting things on fire they shouldn't light on fire,
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把不該點的東西點著了……
06:26
I mean, you know what I'm talking about.
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總之，你懂的。
06:29
They die at six times the rate
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年輕男性的死亡率
06:31
that young women do.
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是年輕女性的六倍。
06:32
Statistically, you are safer as a teenage boy,
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從統計數字上來說，一個小伙子
06:36
you would be safer in the fire department
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待在美國城市的消防隊
06:39
or the police department in most American cities
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或是警察局，
06:41
than just walking around the
streets of your hometown
streets of your hometown
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會比在老家的街上閒逛、
06:44
looking for something to do,
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找事幹，要安全得多。
06:46
statistically.
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從統計數字上來看的話是如此。
06:49
You can imagine how that plays out in combat.
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你可以想像這在戰爭中也一樣。
06:52
At Restrepo, every guy up there was almost killed,
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在雷斯特雷波，幾乎每個人都命懸一線，
06:55
including me,
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包括我，
06:57
including my good friend Tim Hetherington,
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包括我的好朋友蒂姆．赫瑟林頓，
06:59
who was later killed in Libya.
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他後來在利比亞犧牲了。
07:02
There were guys walking around
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那有很多士兵
07:03
with bullet holes in their uniforms,
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穿著被子彈打穿的制服，
07:05
rounds that had cut through the fabric
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子彈打穿了布料，
07:07
and didn't touch their bodies.
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沒碰到他們的身體。
07:10
I was leaning against some sandbags one morning,
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一天早上，我靠著沙袋，
07:13
not much going on, sort of spacing out,
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沒事做，正神遊的時候，
07:16
and some sand was kicked into the side of,
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一些沙子飛起，
07:20
sort of hit the side of my face.
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打在我的側臉上。
07:23
Something hit the side of my face,
and I didn't know what it was.
and I didn't know what it was.
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有東西打在我臉上，
但我不知道是什麽。
但我不知道是什麽。
07:25
You have to understand about bullets
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你得知道子彈這東西
07:26
that they go a lot faster than sound,
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飛得比音速還快。
07:28
so if someone shoots at you
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如果有人朝你開槍，
07:30
from a few hundred meters,
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射程幾百米的話，
07:32
the bullet goes by you, or hits you obviously,
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子彈不是與你擦肩而過，就是擊中你
07:35
half a second or so before
the sound catches up to it.
the sound catches up to it.
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而槍聲半秒之後才會傳來。
07:38
So I had some sand sprayed in the side of my face.
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所以沙子打到我的側臉上，
07:40
Half a second later, I heard dut-dut-dut-dut-duh.
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半秒之後，我才聽到槍聲。
07:42
It was machine gun fire.
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是機關槍的聲音。
07:43
It was the first round, the first burst
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那是第一輪襲擊，
07:46
of an hour-long firefight.
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槍戰維持了一個小時之久。
07:49
What had happened was the bullet hit,
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那發子彈濺起沙子，撲在我臉上，
07:52
a bullet hit three or four inches
from the side of my head.
from the side of my head.
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一發子彈打在離我腦袋三、四吋的地方。
07:55
Imagine, just think about it, because I certainly did,
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想像一下，其實我後來也的確想了，
08:00
think about the angle of deviation that saved my life.
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就是這點偏差救了我一命。
08:02
At 400 meters, it missed me by three inches.
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400 公尺外，它差 3 英吋就要擊中我。
08:04
Just think about the math on that.
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想想這驚悚的數字。
08:09
Every guy up there
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每個在那的士兵，
08:11
had some experience like that,
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都有類似的經驗，
08:12
at least once, if not many times.
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如果不是幾次，至少也有一次。
08:16
The boys are up there for a year.
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小伙子們在那待了一年，
08:18
They got back.
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然後回家。
08:20
Some of them got out of the Army
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有些人退伍回家，
08:22
and had tremendous psychological
problems when they got home.
problems when they got home.
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心理上還有嚴重的問題。
08:24
Some of them stayed in the Army
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有些人留在軍隊，
08:26
and were more or less okay, psychologically.
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心理狀況稍微好些。
08:29
I was particularly close to a
guy named Brendan O'Byrne.
guy named Brendan O'Byrne.
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我和叫布蘭登．歐布萊恩
的小伙子走很近。
的小伙子走很近。
08:32
I'm still very good friends with him.
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我們仍是好朋友。
08:34
He came back to the States. He got out of the Army.
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他回美國之後離開了部隊。
08:37
I had a dinner party one night.
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有次，我舉辦晚宴，
08:39
I invited him,
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邀請了他。
08:41
and he started talking with a woman,
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晚宴上他和一位女士交談，
08:45
one of my friends,
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也是我的朋友，
08:46
and she knew how bad it had been out there,
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她知道戰地生活的險惡，
08:49
and she said, "Brendan,
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她說：「布蘭登，
08:51
is there anything at all that you miss about
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在阿富汗打仗，
08:54
being out in Afghanistan, about the war?"
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有沒有什麽讓你懷念的？」
08:58
And he thought about it quite a long time,
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他想了很久，
09:01
and finally he said, "Ma'am, I miss almost all of it."
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最後說：「女士，我懷念那裡的一切。」
09:06
And he's one of the most traumatized people
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他是我見過，在那場戰爭中，
09:09
I've seen from that war.
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受創最嚴重的人之一。
09:13
"Ma'am, I miss almost all of it."
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「女士，我懷念那裡的一切。」
09:15
What is he talking about?
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這究竟意味著什麼？
09:18
He's not a psychopath.
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他不是精神病患、
09:21
He doesn't miss killing people.
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不懷念殺人、
09:23
He's not crazy. He doesn't miss getting shot at
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沒有瘋、不喜歡被槍射、
09:25
and seeing his friends get killed.
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不希望戰友犧牲。
09:27
What is it that he misses? We have to answer that.
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那他懷念的是什麽？
這問題我們必須回答。
這問題我們必須回答。
09:31
If we're going to stop war, we
have to answer that question.
have to answer that question.
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想阻止戰爭發生，
我們必須回答這個問題。
我們必須回答這個問題。
09:37
I think what he missed is brotherhood.
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我認為，他懷念的是袍澤之情。
09:42
He missed, in some ways,
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從某種角度來說，他懷念的
09:44
the opposite of killing.
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是殺戮的反面，
09:46
What he missed was connection
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是他與其他士兵之間的
09:48
to the other men he was with.
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情感聯繫。
09:50
Now, brotherhood is different from friendship.
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這裡的袍澤之情不同於友誼。
09:53
Friendship happens in society, obviously.
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友誼多見於社會上，
09:57
The more you like someone,
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你愈喜歡一個人，
09:58
the more you'd be willing to do for them.
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愈情願為他付出。
10:00
Brotherhood has nothing to do
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但是袍澤之情，
10:02
with how you feel about the other person.
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與對他人的感覺無關。
10:05
It's a mutual agreement in a group
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那是群體中的共識，
10:08
that you will put the welfare of the group,
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大家都會把群體的福祉、
10:10
you will put the safety of everyone in the group
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群體中他人的安危，
10:12
above your own.
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置於自身安危之上。
10:14
In effect, you're saying,
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實際上相當於說：
10:18
"I love these other people more than I love myself."
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「我愛他人勝過愛自己。」
10:23
Brendan was a team leader
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布蘭登是一個隊長，
10:25
in command of three men,
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手下有三名士兵。
10:26
and the worst day in Afghanistan —
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他在阿富汗經歷了最慘痛的一天：
10:30
He was almost killed so many times.
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他好幾次險些喪生，
10:33
It didn't bother him.
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但這對他不算什麽。
10:34
The worst thing that happened to him in Afghanistan
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對他來說最慘痛的是，
10:37
was one of his men was hit in the head with a bullet
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他的一個手下被子彈射中頭部，
10:39
in the helmet, knocked him over.
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打到鋼盔，把他震昏了。
10:44
They thought he was dead.
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他們以為他死了。
10:45
It was in the middle of a huge firefight.
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當時戰況正酣，
10:46
No one could deal with it, and a minute later,
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2020
沒人顧得上他，一分鐘之後，
10:48
Kyle Steiner sat back up
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凱爾．史坦納坐了起來，
10:51
from the dead, as it were,
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像是復活一樣，
10:52
because he'd come back to consciousness.
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因為他又恢復了意識。
10:54
The bullet had just knocked him out.
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子彈只是震昏他。
10:56
It glanced off the helmet.
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鋼盔擋開了子彈。
10:58
He remembers people saying,
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他記得，
11:00
as he was sort of half-conscious,
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在他半昏半醒時，
11:01
he remembers people saying,
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聽到人們說：
11:05
"Steiner's been hit in the head. Steiner's dead."
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「史坦納被擊中頭部，他死了。」
11:07
And he was thinking, "I'm not dead."
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他想：「我沒死。」
11:08
And he sat up.
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於是坐了起來。
11:10
And Brendan realized after that
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之後布蘭登意識到，
11:12
that he could not protect his men,
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他沒能保護自己的手下。
11:14
and that was the only time he cried in Afghanistan,
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在阿富汗那麽久，他第一次哭了，
11:16
was realizing that.
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因為他意識到了這件事。
11:19
That's brotherhood.
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這就是袍澤之情。
11:22
This wasn't invented recently.
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這不是什麼新詞。
11:24
Many of you have probably read "The Iliad."
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在座許多人可能讀過《伊利亞德》。
11:27
Achilles surely would have risked his life
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阿基里斯寧願犧牲自己，
11:29
or given his life to save his friend Patroclus.
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要保護他的朋友帕特羅克洛斯。
11:34
In World War II, there were many stories
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在二戰期間，也有許多故事。
11:36
of soldiers who were wounded,
267
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受傷的士兵，
11:40
were brought to a rear base hospital,
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被送去後方戰地醫院，
11:42
who went AWOL,
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但他們會逃跑。
11:43
crawled out of windows, slipped out doors,
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爬窗翻牆、
11:45
went AWOL, wounded,
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身負重傷，
11:49
to make their way back to the front lines
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也要回到前線，
11:50
to rejoin their brothers out there.
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重回戰友身邊。
11:53
So you think about Brendan,
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所以想到布蘭登，
11:55
you think about all these soldiers
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就能想到這些戰士。
11:59
having an experience like that, a bond like that,
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有如此經歷、如此的感情紐帶，
12:01
in a small group,
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在一個小群體，
12:03
where they loved 20 other people
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關心著其他 20 個人
12:05
in some ways more than they loved themselves,
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勝過關心自己，
12:08
you think about how good that would feel, imagine it,
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想像一下這是多美好的體驗。
12:13
and they are blessed with that experience for a year,
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他們有幸能有這樣一年的經歷。
12:18
and then they come home,
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後來回到家中，
12:19
and they are just back in society
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回到社會，
12:22
like the rest of us are,
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像我們普通人一樣，
12:25
not knowing who they can count on,
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不知道自己可以依靠誰、
12:28
not knowing who loves them, who they can love,
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不知道誰深愛自己、誰值得自己去愛、
12:33
not knowing exactly what anyone they know
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不知道那些自己認識的人
12:35
would do for them if it came down to it.
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在關鍵時刻願意為他們做什麼。
12:38
That is terrifying.
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這是很恐怖的事情。
12:41
Compared to that,
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1990
相較之下，
12:43
war, psychologically, in some ways, is easy,
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戰爭從某種角度來說，對心理很簡單，
12:47
compared to that kind of alienation.
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沒有這種疏離感。
12:50
That's why they miss it,
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這就是為什麽他們會懷念戰爭。
12:51
and that's what we have to understand
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這是我們必須要瞭解，
12:54
and in some ways fix in our society.
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也是我們需要修正社會的部分。
12:57
Thank you very much.
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非常感謝各位。
13:00
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Sebastian Junger - Journalist and documentarianThe author of "The Perfect Storm" and the director of the documentaries "Restrepo" and "Korengal," Sebastian Junger tells non-fiction stories with grit and emotion.
Why you should listen
Sebastian Junger thundered onto the media landscape with his non-fiction book, The Perfect Storm. A correspondent for Vanity Fair and ABC News, Junger has covered stories all across the globe, igniting a new interest in non-fiction. One of his main interests: war.
From 2007 to 2008, Junger and photographer Tim Hetherington embedded with the 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team in Afghanistan. They spent intensive time with the soldiers at the Restrepo outpost in the Korengal Valley, which saw more combat than any other part of Afghanistan. The experience became Junger's book WAR, and the documentary "Restrepo," which was nominated for the Academy Award for Best Documentary in 2011.
Junger and Hetherington planned to make a second documentary on the topic, "Korengal," meant to help soldiers and civilians alike understand the fear, courage and complexity involved in combat. It's a project that Junger decided to carry on after Hetherington was killed in Libya while covering the civil war there. Junger self-financed and released the film.
Sebastian Junger | Speaker | TED.com