TEDxEastEnd
Juno Mac: The laws that sex workers really want
冬妮·麦克: 性工作者渴望的法律
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每个人都对如何规范性工作的有自己的看法（合法化，禁止甚至收税）。但是性工作者们认为怎样是最好的？活动家冬妮·麦克为我们展示了四种她认为无法保证性工作者安全和自主权的立法模型。 “如果您关注性别不平等或者贫穷问题、移民问题、公共卫生问题，那么保护性工作者的权益对您而言至关重要。” 她说，“让我们与您同行。”
Juno Mac - Sex worker and activist
Juno Mac campaigns for better working conditions for sex workers by fighting criminalization and supporting public education projects around issues relating to sex worker rights. Full bio
Juno Mac campaigns for better working conditions for sex workers by fighting criminalization and supporting public education projects around issues relating to sex worker rights. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
I want to talk about sex for money.
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我想讲一讲性交易。
00:15
I'm not like most of the people
you'll have heard speaking
you'll have heard speaking
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我不像很多之前各位听到过的
00:18
about prostitution before.
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以卖淫为主题的演讲者。
00:19
I'm not a police officer
or a social worker.
or a social worker.
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我不是警察，也不是社会工作者，
00:23
I'm not an academic,
a journalist or a politician.
a journalist or a politician.
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我不是学者，不是记者
也不从政。
也不从政。
00:26
And as you'll probably have
picked up from Maryam's blurb,
picked up from Maryam's blurb,
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相信大家已经听了
玛丽亚姆的演讲，
玛丽亚姆的演讲，
00:29
I'm not a nun, either.
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我也不是修女。
00:30
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
00:31
Most of those people would tell you
that selling sex is degrading;
that selling sex is degrading;
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大部分人也许会说
卖淫是可耻的，
卖淫是可耻的，
00:35
that no one would ever choose to do it;
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没有人会选择去做。
00:37
that it's dangerous;
women get abused and killed.
women get abused and killed.
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同时卖淫也是危险的，
女人受虐甚至被杀害。
女人受虐甚至被杀害。
00:41
In fact, most of those people would say,
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事实上很多人呼吁
00:42
"There should be a law against it!"
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“应该有法律来制裁卖淫！”
00:44
Maybe that sounds reasonable to you.
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也许这听起来更合理。
00:47
It sounded reasonable to me
until the closing months of 2009,
until the closing months of 2009,
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对于我来说合理的是
当2009年的最后几个月，
当2009年的最后几个月，
00:51
when I was working two dead-end,
minimum-wage jobs.
minimum-wage jobs.
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当我同时做着两份没有出路
只拿最低工资的工作，
只拿最低工资的工作，
00:55
Every month my wages would just
replenish my overdraft.
replenish my overdraft.
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每个月的工资仅仅弥补了透支时，
00:59
I was exhausted and my life
was going nowhere.
was going nowhere.
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当我筋疲力尽，不知道路在何方时。
01:02
Like many others before me,
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像很多前人一样，
01:04
I decided sex for money
was a better option.
was a better option.
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我决定从事性工作。
01:07
Now don't get me wrong --
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不要误会，
01:08
I would have loved
to have won the lottery instead.
to have won the lottery instead.
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我当然也想
通过赢一次乐透来赚钱，
通过赢一次乐透来赚钱，
01:10
But it wasn't going
to happen anytime soon,
to happen anytime soon,
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但是那只是可遇不可求的事，
01:13
and my rent needed paying.
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我的房租等着我去付。
01:14
So I signed up for my first
shift in a brothel.
shift in a brothel.
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所以我同妓院
签下了我的第一份合同。
签下了我的第一份合同。
01:18
In the years that have passed,
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过去的这些年，
01:20
I've had a lot of time to think.
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我想了很多。
01:22
I've reconsidered the ideas
I once had about prostitution.
I once had about prostitution.
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我重新思考了
我对卖淫曾经的看法。
我对卖淫曾经的看法。
01:25
I've given a lot of thought to consent
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我对于合约和资本主义下的
01:27
and the nature of work under capitalism.
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工作本质进行了长时间的思考。
01:30
I've thought about gender inequality
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我也思考了性别歧视，
01:32
and the sexual and reproductive
labor of women.
labor of women.
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女性的性劳动和生殖劳动。
01:35
I've experienced exploitation
and violence at work.
and violence at work.
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工作中我经历过剥削和暴力。
01:39
I've thought about what's needed
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我也想过我们需要什么
01:40
to protect other sex workers
from these things.
from these things.
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来保护其他性工作者
远离剥削和暴力。
远离剥削和暴力。
01:42
Maybe you've thought about them, too.
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也许你们会有共鸣。
01:45
In this talk,
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在我的演讲中，
01:46
I'll take you through
the four main legal approaches
the four main legal approaches
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我将介绍全世界主流的
四种与性工作者相关的
四种与性工作者相关的
01:48
applied to sex work throughout the world,
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法律手段，
01:50
and explain why they don't work;
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并且解释为什么它们没有作用。
01:52
why prohibiting the sex industry
actually exacerbates every harm
actually exacerbates every harm
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为什么禁止色情行业实际上
01:55
that sex workers are vulnerable to.
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让本来脆弱的性工作者雪上加霜。
01:58
Then I'm going tell you about what we,
as sex workers, actually want.
as sex workers, actually want.
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然后我将告诉大家作为性工作者
我们真正渴望什么。
我们真正渴望什么。
02:03
The first approach
is full criminalization.
is full criminalization.
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第一种法律手段是完全刑事化。
02:06
Half the world,
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地球上的半数国家，
02:08
including Russia, South Africa
and most of the US,
and most of the US,
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包括俄罗斯、南非
和大部分的美国，
和大部分的美国，
02:10
regulates sex work by criminalizing
everyone involved.
everyone involved.
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宣布所有从事性工作的人
包括卖春者，卖春者和第三方
包括卖春者，卖春者和第三方
02:13
So that's seller, buyer and third parties.
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是违法的。
02:16
Lawmakers in these countries
apparently hope
apparently hope
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这些国家的立法者显然希望
02:18
that the fear of getting arrested
will deter people from selling sex.
will deter people from selling sex.
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被捕的恐惧
会遏制人们卖淫的想法。
会遏制人们卖淫的想法。
02:22
But if you're forced to choose
between obeying the law
between obeying the law
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但是如果你必须要在遵守法律
02:25
and feeding yourself or your family,
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和养家糊口中选择一个，
02:27
you're going to do the work anyway,
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你还是会选择铤而走险
02:29
and take the risk.
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去卖淫的。
02:30
Criminalization is a trap.
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刑事化是一个陷阱。
02:32
It's hard to get a conventional job
when you have a criminal record.
when you have a criminal record.
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如果你有了犯罪记录
就很难找到传统的工作。
就很难找到传统的工作。
02:36
Potential employers won't hire you.
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招聘方不会雇佣你。
02:38
Assuming you still need money,
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假设你仍然需要钱，
02:40
you'll stay in the more flexible,
informal economy.
informal economy.
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你的经济状况
仍然是脆弱的，不正规的。
仍然是脆弱的，不正规的。
02:43
The law forces you to keep selling sex,
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法律不仅没有阻止你，
02:45
which is the exact opposite
of its intended effect.
of its intended effect.
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反而强迫了你去继续卖淫。
02:49
Being criminalized leaves you exposed
to mistreatment by the state itself.
to mistreatment by the state itself.
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卖淫活动的刑事化导致卖淫者
会受到国家本身的不公平对待。
会受到国家本身的不公平对待。
02:53
In many places you may be coerced
into paying a bribe
into paying a bribe
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很多情况下你不得不用贿赂
02:56
or even into having sex
with a police officer
with a police officer
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甚至与警察官员性交易的方式
02:58
to avoid arrest.
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来避免被逮捕。
03:00
Police and prison guards
in Cambodia, for example,
in Cambodia, for example,
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比如说
柬埔寨的警察和监狱看守
柬埔寨的警察和监狱看守
03:03
have been documented
subjecting sex workers
subjecting sex workers
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曾经被记录使用折磨的手段
03:05
to what can only be described as torture:
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对待性工作者：
03:07
threats at gunpoint,
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用枪恐吓她们，
03:08
beatings, electric shocks, rape
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殴打，电击，强奸她们
03:11
and denial of food.
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甚至让她们绝食。
03:13
Another worrying thing:
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另一件令人担忧的事：
03:15
if you're selling sex in places
like Kenya, South Africa or New York,
like Kenya, South Africa or New York,
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如果你在肯尼亚，南非
或纽约这些地方卖淫，
或纽约这些地方卖淫，
03:19
a police officer can arrest you
if you're caught carrying condoms,
if you're caught carrying condoms,
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如果你被抓到持有避孕套
警察就可以逮捕你，
警察就可以逮捕你，
03:23
because condoms can legally be used
as evidence that you're selling sex.
as evidence that you're selling sex.
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因为如果你卖淫
避孕套就是合法的证据。
避孕套就是合法的证据。
03:27
Obviously, this increases HIV risk.
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显然这增加了艾滋病的传播风险。
03:29
Imagine knowing if you're busted
carrying condoms,
carrying condoms,
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想象一下
如果你被逮捕时身上有避孕套
如果你被逮捕时身上有避孕套
03:32
it'll be used against you.
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它将会成为不利的证据。
03:34
It's a pretty strong incentive
to leave them at home, right?
to leave them at home, right?
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你将会更倾向于
把它留在家里，对吧？
把它留在家里，对吧？
03:37
Sex workers working in these places
are forced to make a tough choice
are forced to make a tough choice
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这些地区的性工作者被迫在
03:40
between risking arrest
or having risky sex.
or having risky sex.
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进行危险的性行为
和被捕之间做出选择。
和被捕之间做出选择。
03:44
What would you choose?
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你会怎样选择呢？
03:45
Would you pack condoms to go to work?
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你会带上避孕套去工作么？
03:48
How about if you're worried
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你会不会担心
03:49
the police officer would rape you
when he got you in the van?
when he got you in the van?
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当警察官员在货车里
抓到你时会直接强奸你呢？
抓到你时会直接强奸你呢？
03:53
The second approach to regulating
sex work seen in these countries
sex work seen in these countries
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第二种法律手段被这些国家使用，
03:56
is partial criminalization,
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叫做部分刑事化。
03:58
where the buying and selling
of sex are legal,
of sex are legal,
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在这些国家卖春买春是合法的，
04:00
but surrounding activities,
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但是周边的活动，
04:02
like brothel-keeping or soliciting
on the street, are banned.
on the street, are banned.
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比如妓院和站街拉客是违法的。
04:05
Laws like these --
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像这样的法律被
04:07
we have them in the UK and in France --
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英国，法国这些国家所实践
04:08
essentially say to us sex workers,
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本质上是对我们这些性工作者说，
04:10
"Hey, we don't mind you selling sex,
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“我不介意你卖淫，
04:12
just make sure it's done
behind closed doors
behind closed doors
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但是确保你是偷偷地，
04:14
and all alone."
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一个人做这件事。”
04:16
And brothel-keeping, by the way,
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妓院，顺便说一句，
04:17
is defined as just two or more
sex workers working together.
sex workers working together.
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被定义成为两名甚至
更多性工作者一起工作。
更多性工作者一起工作。
04:20
Making that illegal means
that many of us work alone,
that many of us work alone,
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触犯了
卖淫必须单独进行的法律条款，
卖淫必须单独进行的法律条款，
04:23
which obviously makes us
vulnerable to violent offenders.
vulnerable to violent offenders.
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但是显然让我们对待
暴力罪犯时更加危险。
暴力罪犯时更加危险。
04:26
But we're also vulnerable
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但是如果我们选择一起工作
04:27
if we choose to break the law
by working together.
by working together.
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我们还是危险的。
04:31
A couple of years ago,
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几年前，
04:32
a friend of mine was nervous
after she was attacked at work,
after she was attacked at work,
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我的一位朋友
在工作时被袭击后非常紧张，
在工作时被袭击后非常紧张，
04:35
so I said that she could see her clients
from my place for a while.
from my place for a while.
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我让她暂时在我的地方见她的客户。
04:39
During that time,
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在那段时间，
04:40
we had another guy turn nasty.
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我们遇到了另一个很下流的人。
04:42
I told the guy to leave
or I'd call the police.
or I'd call the police.
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我让他离开，否则会报警。
04:45
And he looked at the two of us and said,
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这时他看着我们两个说，
04:47
"You girls can't call the cops.
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“你们没办法报警。
04:49
You're working together,
this place is illegal."
this place is illegal."
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你们一起工作，这是违法的。”
04:52
He was right.
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他是对的。
04:53
He eventually left
without getting physically violent,
without getting physically violent,
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他最终没有使用暴力离开了，
04:56
but the knowledge
that we were breaking the law
that we were breaking the law
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但是他知道我们违反了法律
04:58
empowered that man to threaten us.
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并且以此为武器要挟我们。
05:00
He felt confident he'd get away with it.
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他知道我们拿他没有办法。
05:02
The prohibition of street prostitution
also causes more harm
also causes more harm
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同样，禁止街头拉客
不但没有减少性工作者的危险，
不但没有减少性工作者的危险，
05:05
than it prevents.
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反而造成了更多的伤害。
05:06
Firstly, to avoid getting arrested,
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首先，街头的工作者
05:08
street workers take risks
to avoid detection,
to avoid detection,
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为了不被发现，避免被捕，
05:11
and that means working alone
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往往一个人工作，
05:12
or in isolated locations like dark forests
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或者去僻静的角落比如森林深处，
05:14
where they're vulnerable to attack.
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在这些情况下他们更容易遭到袭击。
05:16
If you're caught selling sex outdoors,
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如果你在室外卖淫被发现，
05:18
you pay a fine.
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你必须缴纳罚款。
05:20
How do you pay that fine
without going back to the streets?
without going back to the streets?
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可是如果你不回到街上
哪里有钱支付罚款呢？
哪里有钱支付罚款呢？
05:23
It was the need for money
that saw you in the streets
that saw you in the streets
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而钱就是迫使那些女人回到街头
05:25
in the first place.
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最初的原因。
05:26
And so the fines stack up,
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如果罚款越来越多，
05:28
and you're caught in a vicious cycle
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她们就陷入了恶性的循环，
05:30
of selling sex to pay the fines
you got for selling sex.
you got for selling sex.
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用卖淫来支付违法卖淫的罚款。
05:34
Let me tell you about Mariana Popa
who worked in Redbridge, East London.
who worked in Redbridge, East London.
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我来讲一个马里亚纳·波帕的故事
她在雷德布里奇，东伦敦工作。
她在雷德布里奇，东伦敦工作。
05:37
The street workers on her patch
would normally wait for clients in groups
would normally wait for clients in groups
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考虑到人多会安全一些
她那里的站街女
她那里的站街女
05:41
for safety in numbers
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一般一边聚在一起等待顾客
05:42
and to warn each other about how
to avoid dangerous guys.
to avoid dangerous guys.
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一边互相警告如何避开危险的人。
05:46
But during a police crackdown
on sex workers and their clients,
on sex workers and their clients,
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但是在警方扫黄打非的活动中，
05:49
she was forced to work alone
to avoid being arrested.
to avoid being arrested.
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她被迫一个人工作以防被逮捕。
05:53
She was stabbed to death
in the early hours of October 29, 2013.
in the early hours of October 29, 2013.
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她在2013年10月29日被刺死
05:58
She had been working later than usual
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她工作的比平常稍晚一些
05:59
to try to pay off a fine
she had received for soliciting.
she had received for soliciting.
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只是为了偿还
因为拉客而收到的罚款。
因为拉客而收到的罚款。
06:03
So if criminalizing
sex workers hurts them,
sex workers hurts them,
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那么如果判定
性工作者违法是在伤害她们
性工作者违法是在伤害她们
06:06
why not just criminalize
the people who buy sex?
the people who buy sex?
141
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为什么不仅仅刑事处罚买春者呢？
06:09
This is the aim of the third approach
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1838
这正是第三种法律手段。
06:11
I want to talk about --
143
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1158
这种被
06:12
the Swedish or Nordic
model of sex-work law.
model of sex-work law.
144
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2088
瑞典或北欧各国使用的法律模型。
06:15
The idea behind this law
145
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1227
这项立法背后是说
06:16
is that selling sex
is intrinsically harmful
is intrinsically harmful
146
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2463
卖淫本身是有害的，
06:18
and so you're, in fact, helping
sex workers by removing the option.
sex workers by removing the option.
147
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3502
买春者实际上让卖春者别无选择。
06:22
Despite growing support
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1163
然而除了
06:24
for what's often described
as the "end demand" approach,
as the "end demand" approach,
149
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2682
所谓的“终极需求”有所增长之外，
06:26
there's no evidence that it works.
150
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1643
没有证据显示这项法律有用。
06:28
There's just as much prostitution
in Sweden as there was before.
in Sweden as there was before.
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3339
瑞典的卖淫者和以前一样多。
06:31
Why might that be?
152
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1416
为什么会这样？
06:34
It's because people selling sex
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因为性工作者
06:35
often don't have other options for income.
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2116
往往确实没有其他选择。
06:37
If you need that money,
155
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1152
如果你需要钱，
06:38
the only effect that a drop
in business is going have
in business is going have
156
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2482
业务量下降的唯一结果
06:41
is to force you to lower your prices
157
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1725
就是让你不得不降低你的价格
06:43
or offer more risky sexual services.
158
391162
2405
或提供更危险的性服务。
06:45
If you need to find more clients,
159
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1573
如果你需要更多的客户，
06:47
you might seek the help of a manager.
160
395188
1798
也许需要借助上级的帮助
06:49
So you see, rather than putting a stop
161
397010
1980
所以可见这样立法不仅没有
06:51
to what's often descried as pimping,
162
399014
1833
起到禁止所谓皮条客的作用，
06:52
a law like this actually gives oxygen
163
400871
2020
反而让第三方的存在
06:54
to potentially abusive third parties.
164
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2036
越演愈烈。
06:57
To keep safe in my work,
165
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1813
为了工作安全，
06:59
I try not to take bookings from someone
166
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1893
我尽量不接受
07:01
who calls me from a withheld number.
167
409360
1750
匿名电话预定的嫖客
07:03
If it's a home or a hotel visit,
168
411134
1925
如果是去别人家里或者酒店，
07:05
I try to get a full name and details.
169
413083
2169
我尽量拿到客人全名和信息。
07:07
If I worked under the Swedish model,
170
415703
2127
但是如果我在瑞典法制下工作，
07:09
a client would be too scared
to give me that information.
to give me that information.
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2698
顾客可能因为太害怕而拒绝给我信息。
07:12
I might have no other choice
172
420576
1438
我没有办法
07:14
but to accept a booking
from a man who is untraceable
from a man who is untraceable
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422038
2951
只能接受匿名电话的预定，
07:17
if he later turns out to be violent.
174
425013
1937
也许这就是一名暴力罪犯。
07:19
If you need their money,
175
427832
1215
如果你需要钱，
07:21
you need to protect
your clients from the police.
your clients from the police.
176
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2372
你就必须保护顾客远离警察。
07:23
If you work outdoors,
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1157
如果你出门工作，
07:24
that means working alone
or in isolated locations,
or in isolated locations,
178
432648
2563
就意味着自己工作或者在僻静处工作，
07:27
just as if you were criminalized yourself.
179
435235
2215
就好像你自己判定自己有罪一样。
07:29
It might mean getting into cars quicker,
180
437474
2586
这就意味着快速地上车，
07:32
less negotiating time
means snap decisions.
means snap decisions.
181
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2545
没什么时间思考和做决定。
07:35
Is this guy dangerous or just nervous?
182
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2628
这个人是危险的还是仅仅是比较紧张？
07:38
Can you afford to take the risk?
183
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1686
你承担得起这个风险吗？
07:40
Can you afford not to?
184
448492
1646
你可以不承担吗？
07:43
Something I'm often hearing is,
185
451555
1489
我经常听别人说
07:45
"Prostitution would be fine
186
453068
1328
“如果为卖淫制定法律并合理管理
07:46
if we made it legal and regulated it."
187
454420
2381
卖淫的情况就会好很多。”
07:48
We call that approach legalization,
188
456825
1777
这种方式叫卖淫合法化，
07:50
and it's used by countries
like the Netherlands, Germany
like the Netherlands, Germany
189
458626
2796
被荷兰，德国和美国的内华达州
07:53
and Nevada in the US.
190
461446
1592
所采用。
07:55
But it's not a great
model for human rights.
model for human rights.
191
463666
2097
但是从人权的角度来说
这不是一个好的模型。
这不是一个好的模型。
07:57
And in state-controlled prostitution,
192
465787
1805
在国家控制卖淫的情况下
07:59
commercial sex can only happen
193
467616
1563
性交易
08:01
in certain legally-designated
areas or venues,
areas or venues,
194
469203
2293
只可以在法定区域或街道上获得，
08:03
and sex workers are made to comply
with special restrictions,
with special restrictions,
195
471520
2990
性工作者也必须遵守特殊的规定，
08:06
like registration
and forced health checks.
and forced health checks.
196
474534
2763
比如注册和强制身体体检。
08:10
Regulation sounds great on paper,
197
478014
2149
规定理论上听起来很好，
08:12
but politicians deliberately make
regulation around the sex industry
regulation around the sex industry
198
480187
3280
但是政客们故意提高
性产业的价格门槛，
性产业的价格门槛，
08:15
expensive and difficult to comply with.
199
483491
2667
让这些规章制度非常难以遵守。
08:18
It creates a two-tiered system:
legal and illegal work.
legal and illegal work.
200
486182
4344
这形成了
合法和非法工作并存的双重系统。
合法和非法工作并存的双重系统。
08:22
We sometimes call it
"backdoor criminalization."
"backdoor criminalization."
201
490550
3002
有时我们叫它
“秘密犯罪化”。
“秘密犯罪化”。
08:25
Rich, well-connected brothel owners
can comply with the regulations,
can comply with the regulations,
202
493576
3421
人脉广又富有的老鸨们
可以遵守相关的规定，
可以遵守相关的规定，
08:29
but more marginalized people
find those hoops
find those hoops
203
497021
2173
但是更多产业边缘的人
08:31
impossible to jump through.
204
499218
1954
根本无法通过相关的规定。
08:33
And even if it's possible in principle,
205
501196
1970
即使政策上允许，
08:35
getting a license or proper venue
takes time and costs money.
takes time and costs money.
206
503190
2985
获得经营地点和经营许可
也需要大量的时间和金钱
也需要大量的时间和金钱
08:38
It's not going to be an option
207
506199
1479
对于那些急切地需要钱的人来说
08:39
for someone who's desperate
and needs money tonight.
and needs money tonight.
208
507702
2454
这是不可能的。
08:42
They might be a refugee
or fleeing domestic abuse.
or fleeing domestic abuse.
209
510180
3042
她们也许是难民
也许正在逃离家庭暴力
也许正在逃离家庭暴力
08:45
In this two-tiered system,
210
513246
1539
在这个双层系统里，
08:46
the most vulnerable people
are forced to work illegally,
are forced to work illegally,
211
514809
3237
最脆弱的人被迫违法工作，
08:50
so they're still exposed to all
the dangers of criminalization
the dangers of criminalization
212
518070
3016
仍然暴露在我之前所说的
08:53
I mentioned earlier.
213
521110
1436
各种犯罪的危险之中。
08:54
So.
214
522570
1159
所以
08:55
It's looking like all attempts to control
215
523753
2082
似乎所有想要控制
08:57
or prevent sex work from happening
216
525859
1682
或者阻止性工作的方式
08:59
makes things more dangerous
for people selling sex.
for people selling sex.
217
527565
2731
都反而让性工作者更加危险。
09:02
Fear of law enforcement makes them
work alone in isolated locations,
work alone in isolated locations,
218
530682
3426
对制定法律的恐惧
让她们在僻静的角落孤独的工作
让她们在僻静的角落孤独的工作
09:06
and allows clients and even cops
219
534132
1707
遭受客人们甚至警察
09:07
to get abusive in the knowledge
they'll get away with it.
they'll get away with it.
220
535863
2769
的虐待因为他们可以逍遥法外。
09:10
Fines and criminal records force
people to keep selling sex,
people to keep selling sex,
221
538656
3161
罚款和犯罪记录逼迫她们不停地卖淫，
09:13
rather than enabling them to stop.
222
541841
1978
而不是阻止她们。
09:16
Crackdowns on buyers drive sellers
to take dangerous risks
to take dangerous risks
223
544325
2777
针对买春者的打击行动反而增加了卖春者
09:19
and into the arms
of potentially abusive managers.
of potentially abusive managers.
224
547126
2337
受虐待的风险并助长了第三方产业。
09:21
These laws also reinforce stigma
and hatred against sex workers.
and hatred against sex workers.
225
549487
3767
法律也将对性工作者的
耻辱和仇恨钉在大家心中。
耻辱和仇恨钉在大家心中。
09:25
When France temporarily brought in
the Swedish model two years ago,
the Swedish model two years ago,
226
553278
3349
当两年前法国引入瑞典模型时
09:28
ordinary citizens took it as a cue
227
556651
1975
民众纷纷受到影响
09:30
to start carrying out vigilante attacks
228
558650
1951
举行一系列的民众抗争
09:32
against people working on the street.
229
560625
2139
抵制街头工作的性工作者。
09:34
In Sweden, opinion surveys show
230
562788
1998
在瑞典民意调查显示
09:36
that significantly more people want
sex workers to be arrested now
sex workers to be arrested now
231
564810
3955
在相关法律实施以后
更多的人希望
更多的人希望
09:40
than before the law was brought in.
232
568789
1947
性工作者被逮捕。
09:43
If prohibition is this harmful,
233
571625
2122
如果禁令如此有害
09:45
you might ask, why it so popular?
234
573771
2182
你也许会问为什么它这么受欢迎？
09:48
Firstly, sex work is and always
has been a survival strategy
has been a survival strategy
235
576832
2943
首先，性工作从古至今一直是
09:51
for all kinds of unpopular
minority groups:
minority groups:
236
579799
2908
不受欢迎的少数群体的生存策略。
09:54
people of color,
237
582731
1203
包括有色人种，
09:55
migrants,
238
583958
1151
移民，
09:57
people with disabilities,
239
585133
1224
残障人士，
09:58
LGBTQ people,
240
586381
1195
同性恋泛性恋人群，
09:59
particularly trans women.
241
587600
1697
尤其是人妖。
10:01
These are the groups most heavily profiled
242
589924
2106
这些人是受到卖淫管制的
10:04
and punished through prohibitionist law.
243
592054
2326
针对和惩罚最严重的。
10:06
I don't think this is an accident.
244
594404
1976
我不认为这是巧合。
10:08
These laws have political support
245
596404
1839
这些法律背后都有特定的政治支持
10:10
precisely because they target people
246
598267
2639
因为他们就是针对
10:12
that voters don't want
to see or know about.
to see or know about.
247
600930
2582
选民所不喜欢看到或知道的人。
10:16
Why else might people support prohibition?
248
604688
2388
还有民众支持禁止卖淫的原因么？
10:19
Well, lots of people have
understandable fears about trafficking.
understandable fears about trafficking.
249
607465
3657
很多人对
贩卖人口有无可厚非的恐惧。
贩卖人口有无可厚非的恐惧。
10:23
Folks think that foreign women
kidnapped and sold into sexual slavery
kidnapped and sold into sexual slavery
250
611664
3847
民众认为如果整个卖淫产业被禁止
10:27
can be saved by shutting
a whole industry down.
a whole industry down.
251
615535
2618
外国女人就不会被绑架
和作为性奴隶进行买卖。
和作为性奴隶进行买卖。
10:30
So let's talk about trafficking.
252
618555
1687
所以我们谈谈人口买卖。
10:33
Forced labor does occur
in many industries,
in many industries,
253
621156
3583
强制劳动在很多国家都屡见不鲜，
10:36
especially those where the workers
are migrants or otherwise vulnerable,
are migrants or otherwise vulnerable,
254
624763
3579
尤其发生在移民劳工
和其他弱势群体中，
和其他弱势群体中，
10:40
and this needs to be addressed.
255
628366
1681
这是一个需要解决的问题。
10:42
But it's best addressed with legislation
targeting those specific abuses,
targeting those specific abuses,
256
630535
4279
但是最好立法
直接针对特殊的受虐待群体，
直接针对特殊的受虐待群体，
10:46
not an entire industry.
257
634838
1516
而不是整个产业。
10:48
When 23 undocumented Chinese migrants
258
636791
2377
当23名中国偷渡者
10:51
drowned while picking cockles
in Morecambe Bay in 2004,
in Morecambe Bay in 2004,
259
639192
2917
在2004年莫克姆湾
捡拾蛤蜊被淹死时，
捡拾蛤蜊被淹死时，
10:54
there were no calls to outlaw
the entire seafood industry
the entire seafood industry
260
642133
2936
不会因为要解决人口买卖问题
10:57
to save trafficking victims.
261
645093
2061
而认定整个海产行业违法。
10:59
The solution is clearly to give
workers more legal protections,
workers more legal protections,
262
647178
3355
解决问题的关键是给予
工作者更多的合法保护
工作者更多的合法保护
11:02
allowing them to resist abuse
263
650557
1769
让他们抵抗虐待
11:04
and report it to authorities
without fear of arrest.
without fear of arrest.
264
652350
3040
并无畏地报告给有关部门。
11:07
The way the term trafficking
is thrown around
is thrown around
265
655414
2300
人口贩卖这个词语的泛滥使用
11:09
implies that all undocumented
migration into prostitution is forced.
migration into prostitution is forced.
266
657738
4221
意味着似乎所有的偷渡者
从事卖淫行业时都是被迫的。
从事卖淫行业时都是被迫的。
11:14
In fact, many migrants
have made a decision,
have made a decision,
267
662423
3006
实际上很多移民出于经济需要
11:17
out of economic need,
268
665453
1254
已经做了决定
11:18
to place themselves into the hands
of people smugglers.
of people smugglers.
269
666731
2783
把他们自己的命运交给走私者。
11:21
Many do this with the full knowledge
270
669538
1782
很多人完全知道
11:23
that they'll be selling sex
when they reach their destination.
when they reach their destination.
271
671344
3203
自己将在目的地做一个性工作者。
11:26
And yes, it can often be the case
272
674571
1753
是的，往往
11:28
that these people smugglers
demand exorbitant fees,
demand exorbitant fees,
273
676348
3245
这些走私者要价过高，
11:31
coerce migrants into work
they don't want to do
they don't want to do
274
679617
2904
强迫移民做他们不想做的事，
11:34
and abuse them when they're vulnerable.
275
682545
1887
虐待那些脆弱的人。
11:36
That's true of prostitution,
276
684456
1503
这在卖淫行业是真实存在的，
11:37
but it's also true of agricultural work,
277
685983
1947
但是这在农业劳动，酒店工作
11:39
hospitality work and domestic work.
278
687954
2151
和家务劳动中也是存在的。
11:42
Ultimately, nobody wants
to be forced to do any kind of work,
to be forced to do any kind of work,
279
690653
3393
说到底没人愿意被强迫做任何事情，
11:46
but that's a risk many migrants
are willing to take,
are willing to take,
280
694070
2501
但是很多移民愿意铤而走险，
11:48
because of what they're leaving behind.
281
696595
1870
因为不堪回首的过去。
11:50
If people were allowed to migrate legally
282
698489
1960
如果人们可以合法移民
11:52
they wouldn't have to place their lives
into the hands of people smugglers.
into the hands of people smugglers.
283
700473
3537
他们就不用把性命
交到走私者的手里。
交到走私者的手里。
11:56
The problems arise
284
704034
1151
我们从
11:57
from the criminalization of migration,
285
705209
1825
性交易非法的问题
11:59
just as they do from the criminalization
286
707058
1961
讨论到随意移民是
12:01
of sex work itself.
287
709043
1151
非法的问题。
12:02
This is a lesson of history.
288
710218
1582
历史的经验告诉我们
12:03
If you try to prohibit something
that people want or need to do,
that people want or need to do,
289
711824
3646
如果你想禁止民众想要或者需要的
12:07
whether that's drinking alcohol
or crossing borders
or crossing borders
290
715494
3575
无论是饮酒还是跨越国界，
12:11
or getting an abortion
291
719093
1289
无论是堕胎
12:12
or selling sex,
292
720406
1360
还是性交易，
12:14
you create more problems than you solve.
293
722371
2000
总有解决不完的问题。
12:16
Prohibition barely makes a difference
294
724395
1789
禁令对于
12:18
to the amount of people
actually doing those things.
actually doing those things.
295
726208
2430
正在做这些事的人
基本没什么用。
基本没什么用。
12:20
But it makes a huge difference
296
728672
1471
但是禁令对于
12:22
as to whether or not
they're safe when they do them.
they're safe when they do them.
297
730177
2919
他们在做这些的时候的
人身安全影响巨大。
人身安全影响巨大。
12:25
Why else might people support prohibition?
298
733591
2299
还有民众支持禁令的其他原因么？
12:28
As a feminist, I know
that the sex industry is a site
that the sex industry is a site
299
736787
3366
作为女权主义者，
我知道性产业深刻地
我知道性产业深刻地
12:32
of deeply entrenched social inequality.
300
740177
2880
反映了社会的不平衡。
12:35
It's a fact that most buyers of sex
are men with money,
are men with money,
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事实上大多数买春者是有钱的男性，
12:38
and most sellers are women without.
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大多数卖春者是没钱的女性。
12:40
You can agree with all that -- I do --
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你我都同意这些
12:43
and still think prohibition
is a terrible policy.
is a terrible policy.
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751391
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但我仍然认为
禁止性交易是一个糟糕的政策。
禁止性交易是一个糟糕的政策。
12:46
In a better, more equal world,
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在一个更加美好和平等的社会，
12:48
maybe there would be far fewer
people selling sex to survive,
people selling sex to survive,
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将会有很少的人
为了生存进行性交易，
为了生存进行性交易，
12:52
but you can't simply legislate
a better world into existence.
a better world into existence.
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760597
3611
但是你不能简单地
通过立法改善世界。
通过立法改善世界。
12:56
If someone needs to sell sex
because they're poor
because they're poor
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如果有的人因为穷困
或者无家可归
或者无家可归
12:58
or because they're homeless
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1442
而选择性交易
13:00
or because they're undocumented
and they can't find legal work,
and they can't find legal work,
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768208
3142
或者他们因为没有身份
不能找到合法的工作，
不能找到合法的工作，
13:03
taking away that option
doesn't make them any less poor
doesn't make them any less poor
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禁止卖淫不能让他们富有
13:06
or house them
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也不能提供他们住房
13:08
or change their immigration status.
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776600
1953
或者改变身份状况。
13:10
People worry that selling
sex is degrading.
sex is degrading.
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2531
人们担心卖淫是可耻的。
13:13
Ask yourself: is it more degrading
than going hungry
than going hungry
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扪心自问：它会比挨饿更加可耻吗？
13:16
or seeing your children go hungry?
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1927
它会比看着你的孩子
挨饿更加可耻么？
挨饿更加可耻么？
13:19
There's no call to ban rich people
from hiring nannies
from hiring nannies
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787366
3004
没有政策禁止富人雇佣保姆
13:22
or getting manicures,
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790394
1253
或者修指甲，
13:23
even though most of the people
doing that labor are poor, migrant women.
doing that labor are poor, migrant women.
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791671
3626
尽管做这些苦力活的
大多是贫穷的女性移民。
大多是贫穷的女性移民。
13:27
It's the fact of poor migrant women
selling sex specifically
selling sex specifically
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795321
4144
只有当那些
贫穷的女性移民进行性交易时
贫穷的女性移民进行性交易时
13:31
that has some feminists uncomfortable.
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799489
2305
才让一些女权主义者不安。
13:34
And I can understand
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1153
我可以理解
13:35
why the sex industry provokes
strong feelings.
strong feelings.
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803658
2725
为什么性产业
会引发强烈的不满情绪。
会引发强烈的不满情绪。
13:38
People have all kinds
of complicated feelings
of complicated feelings
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806407
3023
当提到性的时候
人们都有很复杂的情绪。
13:41
when it comes to sex.
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809454
1459
13:43
But we can't make policy
on the basis of mere feelings,
on the basis of mere feelings,
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811546
3245
但是我们不能仅仅根据情绪立法，
13:46
especially not over
the heads of the people
the heads of the people
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814815
2062
更不能不考虑实际上
会被法律影响的人们
会被法律影响的人们
13:48
actually effected by those policies.
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816901
1738
而立法。
13:50
If we get fixated on
the abolition of sex work,
the abolition of sex work,
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818663
2619
如果我们对于
废除性交易念念不忘，
废除性交易念念不忘，
13:53
we end up worrying more
about a particular manifestation
about a particular manifestation
330
821306
2664
最终只会担心更多的性别不平等
13:55
of gender inequality,
331
823994
1413
的其他特例，
13:57
rather than about the underlying causes.
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825431
2322
而不是真正地思考背后的原因。
14:00
People get really hung up on the question,
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828333
2431
人们往往全神贯注于诸如
14:02
"Well, would you want
your daughter doing it?"
your daughter doing it?"
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830788
2468
“为什么你让女儿做这种事？”
的问题。
的问题。
14:05
That's the wrong question.
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833280
1510
这不是我们要解决的问题。
14:07
Instead, imagine she is doing it.
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835217
2668
而是想象她在做这种事的时候
14:10
How safe is she at work tonight?
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838542
1864
晚上工作有多安全？
14:13
Why isn't she safer?
338
841155
1529
为什么不能更安全？
14:16
So we've looked at full criminalization,
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844497
2921
所以我们已经了解了完全刑事化
14:19
partial criminalization,
the Swedish or Nordic Model
the Swedish or Nordic Model
340
847442
3003
部分刑事化，瑞典北欧模型
14:22
and legalization,
341
850469
1190
和合法化，
14:23
and how they all cause harm.
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851683
1652
也知道为什么他们都会造成伤害。
14:25
Something I never hear asked is:
343
853359
2952
我从没听见过有人问：
14:28
"What do sex workers want?"
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856839
1670
“性工作者需要什么？”
14:31
After all, we're the ones
most affected by these laws.
most affected by these laws.
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859573
2668
毕竟我们是最受法律影响的人。
14:35
New Zealand decriminalized
sex work in 2003.
sex work in 2003.
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863115
2880
新西兰2003年使性交易无罪化。
14:38
It's crucial to remember
347
866532
1901
切记
14:40
that decriminalization and legalization
are not the same thing.
are not the same thing.
348
868457
3451
无罪化和合法化不是一样的。
14:43
Decriminalization means
the removal of laws
the removal of laws
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871932
2885
无罪化意味着针对
性产业的法律惩罚
性产业的法律惩罚
14:46
that punitively target the sex industry,
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874841
2043
被移除，
14:48
instead treating sex work
much like any other kind of work.
much like any other kind of work.
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876908
3422
而不是像其他职业一样
平等看待性产业。
平等看待性产业。
14:52
In New Zealand, people
can work together for safety,
can work together for safety,
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880354
2813
在新西兰人们可以
为了安全一起工作，
为了安全一起工作，
14:55
and employers of sex workers
are accountable to the state.
are accountable to the state.
353
883191
2753
性工作者的雇主接受国家的监督。
14:57
A sex worker can refuse
to see a client at any time,
to see a client at any time,
354
885968
2683
性工作者可以在任何时间
以任何理由
以任何理由
15:00
for any reason,
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888675
1460
拒绝去见一个客户，
15:02
and 96 percent of street workers
356
890159
2474
96%的街道工作者
15:04
report that they feel the law
protects their rights.
protects their rights.
357
892657
3141
认为法律保护了她们的权益。
15:07
New Zealand hasn't actually
seen an increase
seen an increase
358
895822
2094
尽管无罪化让她们更加安全。
15:09
in the amount of people doing sex work,
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897940
2111
在新西兰从事
15:12
but decriminalizing it
has made it a lot safer.
has made it a lot safer.
360
900075
2624
性工作的人数并没有上升。
15:15
But the lesson from New Zealand
361
903274
1577
但是新西兰的故事
15:16
isn't just that its particular
legislation is good,
legislation is good,
362
904875
2397
并不能说明其特殊的立法是好的，
15:19
but that crucially,
363
907296
1151
但是重要的是，
15:20
it was written in collaboration
with sex workers;
with sex workers;
364
908471
2319
这项法律是性工作者合作制定的。
15:22
namely, the New Zealand
Prostitutes' Collective.
Prostitutes' Collective.
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910814
2309
也就是新西兰的妓女联合会。
15:25
When it came to making sex work safer,
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913147
2329
当谈到如何保护性工作者的安全时，
15:27
they were ready to hear it straight
from sex workers themselves.
from sex workers themselves.
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915500
3189
工会愿意直接听到
性工作者自己的声音。
性工作者自己的声音。
15:31
Here in the UK,
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919251
1150
在英国，
15:32
I'm part of sex worker-led groups
like the Sex Worker Open University
like the Sex Worker Open University
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920425
3418
我是性工作者领导集体中的一份子
比如性工作者公开大学和
比如性工作者公开大学和
15:35
and the English Collective of Prostitutes.
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923867
2095
英国妓女联合会。
15:37
And we form part of a global movement
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925986
1795
我们组织全球性活动
15:39
demanding decriminalization
and self-determination.
and self-determination.
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927805
3460
要求无罪化和自我决定权。
15:43
The universal symbol of our movement
is the red umbrella.
is the red umbrella.
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931653
2740
我们行动的通用符号是红雨伞。
15:46
We're supported in our demands
by global bodies like UNAIDS,
by global bodies like UNAIDS,
374
934417
3101
我们的要求得到了
联合国艾滋病规划署
联合国艾滋病规划署
15:49
the World Health Organization
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937542
1600
世界卫生组织
15:51
and Amnesty International.
376
939166
1386
和国际特赦组织的支持。
15:52
But we need more allies.
377
940924
1838
但是我们需要更多盟友。
15:55
If you care about gender equality
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943181
2336
如果您关注性别不平等
15:57
or poverty or migration or public health,
379
945541
2796
或者贫穷问题、
移民问题、公共卫生问题，
移民问题、公共卫生问题，
16:00
then sex worker rights matter to you.
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948361
2504
那么保护性工作者的权益
对您而言至关重要。
对您而言至关重要。
16:03
Make space for us in your movements.
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951355
2023
让我们与您同行。
16:05
That means not only listening
to sex workers when we speak
to sex workers when we speak
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953402
3236
这不仅意味着倾听性工作者说的话
16:08
but amplifying our voices.
383
956662
2001
更意味着放大我们的声音。
16:11
Resist those who silence us,
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959219
2121
反对那些让我们沉默的人
16:13
those who say that a prostitute
is either too victimized,
is either too victimized,
385
961364
3179
反对那些说妓女
被欺骗或者被伤害
被欺骗或者被伤害
16:16
too damaged to know
what's best for herself,
what's best for herself,
386
964567
2646
以至于不知道
如何保护自己
如何保护自己
16:19
or else too privileged
387
967237
1736
反对那些在特权恩惠下的，
16:20
and too removed from real hardship,
388
968997
2188
远离苦难生活的，
16:23
not representative of the millions
of voiceless victims.
of voiceless victims.
389
971209
3380
无法代表数百万
微言轻的受害者的人。
微言轻的受害者的人。
16:27
This distinction between victim
and empowered is imaginary.
and empowered is imaginary.
390
975709
4803
受害者和掌权者的区别是虚假的。
16:32
It exists purely to discredit sex workers
391
980536
2453
它的存在只是为了
败坏性工作者的名声
败坏性工作者的名声
16:35
and make it easy to ignore us.
392
983013
1943
让社会更加轻易的无视我们。
16:37
No doubt many of you work for a living.
393
985819
2192
在座各位为谋生而工作。
16:40
Well, sex work is work, too.
394
988560
1721
性工作也是工作。
16:42
Just like you,
395
990877
1156
就像各位一样，
16:44
some of us like our jobs,
396
992057
1606
有些人热爱自己的工作
16:45
some of us hate them.
397
993687
1401
有些人憎恨它。
16:47
Ultimately, most of us
have mixed feelings.
have mixed feelings.
398
995770
2643
最终我们中大多数人
对这份工作都怀着复杂的感情。
对这份工作都怀着复杂的感情。
16:51
But how we feel about our work
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999238
2406
但是我们对工作是什么感情
16:54
isn't the point.
400
1002566
1174
并不是重点。
16:56
And how others feel
about our work certainly isn't.
about our work certainly isn't.
401
1004484
3018
别人怎么看我们的工作也不是重点。
17:00
What's important is that we have
the right to work safely
the right to work safely
402
1008373
2748
重要的是我们有权利
根据我们自己的主张
根据我们自己的主张
17:03
and on our own terms.
403
1011145
1308
安全的工作。
17:04
Sex workers are real people.
404
1012477
1875
性工作者也是人。
17:06
We've had complicated experiences
405
1014823
2180
我们有复杂的经历
17:09
and complicated responses
to those experiences.
to those experiences.
406
1017655
3055
和对那些经历复杂的反应。
17:13
But our demands are not complicated.
407
1021651
2776
但是我们的要求并不复杂。
17:16
You can ask expensive
escorts in New York City,
escorts in New York City,
408
1024451
2797
你可以问在纽约的高级陪护，
17:19
brothel workers in Cambodia,
street workers in South Africa
street workers in South Africa
409
1027272
2938
柬埔寨的妓女，
南非的站街工作者，
南非的站街工作者，
17:22
and every girl on the roster
at my old job in Soho,
at my old job in Soho,
410
1030234
3119
和我以前工作过的伦敦苏活区里
每一个名单上的女孩，
每一个名单上的女孩，
17:25
and they will all tell you the same thing.
411
1033377
2340
他们都会告诉你同样的事情。
17:27
You can speak to millions of sex workers
412
1035741
2241
你可以问千千万万个性工作者
17:30
and countless sex work-led organizations.
413
1038006
2457
和不计其数的性工作领导机构。
17:32
We want full decriminalization
and labor rights as workers.
and labor rights as workers.
414
1040487
3970
我们需要完全的无罪化
和其他工作者一样的劳动者权益。
和其他工作者一样的劳动者权益。
17:36
I'm just one sex worker
on the stage today,
on the stage today,
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1044985
2316
今天我只是一个
站在台上的性工作者，
站在台上的性工作者，
17:39
but I'm bringing a message
from all over the world.
from all over the world.
416
1047325
2570
但是我带来了全世界的声音。
17:41
Thank you.
417
1049919
1168
谢谢。
17:43
(Applause)
418
1051111
6373
（掌声）
Translated by Gu Yu
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Juno Mac - Sex worker and activistJuno Mac campaigns for better working conditions for sex workers by fighting criminalization and supporting public education projects around issues relating to sex worker rights.
Why you should listen
Juno Mac is a sex worker and activist with the Sex Worker Open University (SWOU), a sex worker-led collective with branches in London, Leeds and Glasgow. SWOU is focussed on advocacy, campaigning, cultural events and community support for sex workers.
Through their organizing, SWOU activists support each other through stigma and isolation, demand better working conditions by fighting criminalization and provide public education around issues relating to sex worker rights. Mac's activist work with SWOU has included delivering workshops in universities, political lobbying and campaigning, consulting with human rights organisations (including Amnesty International), appearances on radio and TV, and taking part in public panel discussions at festivals and conferences.
Mac has also curated an exhibition of sex worker art, contributed to magazines and a live storytelling night, facilitated skill-sharing and support spaces for fellow sex workers, and helped to organise SWOU's Open Conference of The Advancement of Sex Worker Rights 2015.
Juno Mac | Speaker | TED.com