TED2018
Zachary R. Wood: Why it's worth listening to people you disagree with
扎哈里 · R · 伍德: 為何值得聆聽那些與你意見不同的人
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扎哈里．R．伍德說，透過和與我們意見不同的人交流想法，會令我們變得更強大，而非更脆弱。在這場關於尋找共同點的重要演講中，伍德舉例，透過巧妙且深思後的方式，探討有爭議想法和陌生的觀點，我們能建立同理心並增進了解。伍德說：「拒絕反對的觀點並不會讓它們消失；為了在逆境中有所成長，我們需要真正的投入，更深入了解人性。」
Zachary R. Wood - Crusader for dialogue
As the head of a student group called Uncomfortable Learning, Zachary R. Wood made a point of engaging in conversation with people he disagreed with. Full bio
As the head of a student group called Uncomfortable Learning, Zachary R. Wood made a point of engaging in conversation with people he disagreed with. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:14
In 1994,
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1994 年，
00:15
Charles Murray and Richard Herrnstein
coauthored "The Bell Curve,"
coauthored "The Bell Curve,"
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查爾斯·莫里
和理察·赫恩斯坦
共同寫下了《鐘形曲線》，
00:20
an extremely controversial book
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這是本非常有爭議的書，
00:22
which claims that on average,
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聲稱平均而言，
00:24
some races are smarter
and more likely to succeed than others.
and more likely to succeed than others.
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有些種族比較聰明，
也較容易成功。
也較容易成功。
00:28
Murray and Herrnstein also suggest
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莫里和赫恩斯坦也暗指
00:30
that a lack of critical intelligence
explains the prominence of violent crime
explains the prominence of violent crime
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智力明顯較低的情況
能解釋為什麼大部分的暴力犯罪
能解釋為什麼大部分的暴力犯罪
00:35
in poor African-American communities.
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發生在貧窮的非裔美籍社區。
00:39
But Charles Murray and Richard Herrnstein
are not the only people who think this.
are not the only people who think this.
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查爾斯·莫里和理察·赫恩斯坦
不是唯一這樣想的人。
不是唯一這樣想的人。
00:43
In 2012,
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2012 年，
00:45
a writer, journalist and political
commentator named John Derbyshire
commentator named John Derbyshire
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身兼作家、記者
和政治評論員的德比夏爾
和政治評論員的德比夏爾
00:49
wrote an article that was supposed to be
a non-black version of the talk
a non-black version of the talk
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寫篇文章給非黑人族群，
00:54
that many black parents feel
they have to give their kids today:
they have to give their kids today:
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但許多黑人父母覺得
這也適用於他們的小孩：
這也適用於他們的小孩：
00:57
advice on how to stay safe.
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保持安全的建議。
01:00
In it, he offered suggestions such as:
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文章中，他說例如：
01:03
"Do not attend events
likely to draw a lot of blacks,"
likely to draw a lot of blacks,"
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「別參加可能吸引
一群黑人的活動。」
一群黑人的活動。」
01:07
"Stay out of heavily black neighborhoods"
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「離黑人多的社區遠一點。」
01:09
and "Do not act the Good Samaritan
to blacks in distress."
to blacks in distress."
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及「別對處在
急難之中的黑人太好心。」
急難之中的黑人太好心。」
01:13
And yet, in 2016,
I invited John Derbyshire
I invited John Derbyshire
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而 2016 年，我邀請德比夏爾
01:18
as well as Charles Murray
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和查爾斯·莫里
01:19
to speak at my school,
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來我的學校演講，
01:21
knowing full well that I would
be giving them a platform and attention
be giving them a platform and attention
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他們完全清楚，我會給他們舞台，
01:26
for ideas that I despised and rejected.
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讓他們說那些我鄙視
和我拒絕的想法。
和我拒絕的想法。
01:30
But this is just a further evolution
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但這只是我人生中
不舒服學習的演變。
不舒服學習的演變。
01:33
of a journey of uncomfortable learning
throughout my life.
throughout my life.
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01:37
When I was 10 years old, my mother
was diagnosed with schizophrenia,
was diagnosed with schizophrenia,
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當我十歲時，我媽
被診斷思覺失調症，
被診斷思覺失調症，
01:42
a mental illness characterized
by mood swings and paranoid delusions.
by mood swings and paranoid delusions.
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這是一種精神疾病，
特徵是情緒波動和偏執妄想。
特徵是情緒波動和偏執妄想。
01:47
Throughout my life, my mother's rage
would turn our small house
would turn our small house
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我人生中，媽媽的憤怒
會把我們的小屋
會把我們的小屋
01:51
into a minefield.
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變成地雷區。
01:54
Yet, though I feared
her rage on a daily basis,
her rage on a daily basis,
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儘管我對她每天的憤怒感到害怕，
01:57
I also learned so much from her.
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我也從她那學到很多。
02:00
Our relationship was complicated
and challenging,
and challenging,
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我們的關係複雜且有挑戰性，
02:05
and at the age of 14, it was decided
that I needed to live apart from her.
that I needed to live apart from her.
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我 14 歲時，
被判定必須和她分開住。
被判定必須和她分開住。
02:12
But over the years,
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幾年後，我開始欣賞
02:13
I've come to appreciate
some of the important lessons
some of the important lessons
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我媽教我的那些
有關人生的重要課程。
有關人生的重要課程。
02:16
my mother taught me about life.
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02:18
She was the first person who spoke to me
about learning from the other side.
about learning from the other side.
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她是第一個跟我說
要從反面學習的人，
要從反面學習的人，
02:24
And she, like me, was born and raised
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她跟我一樣，出身在
一個自由民主的家庭裡。
一個自由民主的家庭裡。
02:27
in a family of committed
liberal democrats.
liberal democrats.
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02:30
Yet, she encouraged me to see the world
and the issues our world faces
and the issues our world faces
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然而，她鼓勵我把世界
及世界上正面對的問題
及世界上正面對的問題
02:34
as complex, controversial
and ever-changing.
and ever-changing.
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看作複雜、有爭議及不斷變動的。
02:40
One day, I came across
the phrase "affirmative action"
the phrase "affirmative action"
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有天，我在一本書中看到
「平權行動」這詞，
「平權行動」這詞，
02:42
in a book I was reading.
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02:45
And when I asked her what the term meant,
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當我問我媽這是什麼意思，
02:48
she spent what felt like an hour
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她說了彷彿一小時
02:50
giving me a thorough
and thoughtful explanation
and thoughtful explanation
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給我一個完整及深刻的解釋，
02:52
that would make sense to a small child.
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而這能讓小朋友理解。
02:54
She even made the topic sound
at least as interesting
at least as interesting
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她甚至讓這題目聽起來
至少和我的教授上課一樣有趣。
02:58
as any of my professors have.
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03:01
She explained the many reasons
why people of various political views
why people of various political views
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她解釋許多原因，
為什麼不同政治觀點的人
為什麼不同政治觀點的人
03:05
challenge and support affirmative action,
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挑戰或支持平權運動，
03:07
stressing that, while she strongly
supported it herself,
supported it herself,
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她強調，雖然她很堅持自己的主張，
03:11
it was important for me to view the issue
as a controversial one
as a controversial one
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但同時很重要的，是把這議題
看成一個長期的爭議、
看成一個長期的爭議、
03:15
with a long history,
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03:17
a questionable future
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一個有疑慮的未來
03:19
and a host of complicating factors.
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及一系列複雜的因素。
03:22
While affirmative action can increase
the presence of minorities
the presence of minorities
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儘管平權運動能增加弱勢族群
在精英教育機構的比例，
在精英教育機構的比例，
03:26
at elite educational institutions,
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她認為這也對不同族群、
來自富裕背景的努力人士不利。
來自富裕背景的努力人士不利。
03:28
she felt that it could also disadvantage
hardworking people of different races
hardworking people of different races
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03:33
from more affluent backgrounds.
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03:37
My mom wanted me to understand
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我媽希望我了解，
03:41
that I should never
just write off opinions
just write off opinions
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我不該總是只寫下不同意
或不喜歡的意見，
或不喜歡的意見，
03:43
that I disagreed with or disliked,
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因為人總能從不同觀點學到東西，
03:46
because there was always something
to learn from the perspectives of others,
to learn from the perspectives of others,
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03:50
even when doing so might be difficult.
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儘管這麼做可能很難。
03:53
But life at home with my mom
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和我媽相處的時光，
03:56
was not the only aspect of my journey
that has been formative and uncomfortable.
that has been formative and uncomfortable.
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不是唯一造就我又令我
感到不舒服的過程。
感到不舒服的過程。
04:01
In fourth grade, she decided
that I should attend a private school
that I should attend a private school
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四年級時，她決定讓我讀私立學校，
04:05
in order to receive
the best education possible.
the best education possible.
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如此我能得到最好的教育機會；
04:08
As a black student attending
predominantly white private schools,
predominantly white private schools,
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身為黑人學生，進入
白人為主的私立學校，
白人為主的私立學校，
04:12
I've encountered attitudes and behaviors
that reflected racial stereotypes.
that reflected racial stereotypes.
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我面對一些反映了種族
刻板印象的態度和行為。
刻板印象的態度和行為。
04:17
Several of my friends' parents
assumed within minutes of meeting me
assumed within minutes of meeting me
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有很多我朋友的爸媽
才見到我幾分鐘，
才見到我幾分鐘，
04:21
that my best skill was playing basketball.
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就假定我最擅長的是籃球，
04:25
And it really upset me to think
that my race made it harder for them
that my race made it harder for them
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這讓我很挫折，因為
種族因素使其他人
種族因素使其他人
04:28
to see me as a student who loved
reading, writing and speaking.
reading, writing and speaking.
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認為我喜愛閱讀、書寫
和演講難以想像。
和演講難以想像。
04:32
Experiences like this motivated me
to work tirelessly
to work tirelessly
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這種經驗激發我不眠不休的工作，
04:38
to disprove what I knew
people had assumed.
people had assumed.
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來推翻別人的成見。
04:42
My mother even said that,
in order to put my best foot forward,
in order to put my best foot forward,
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我媽甚至說，為了更加往前邁進，
04:46
I had to be patient, alert
and excruciatingly well-mannered.
and excruciatingly well-mannered.
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我要有耐心、機警及行為極為端正。
04:50
To prove that I belonged,
I had to show poise and confidence,
I had to show poise and confidence,
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為了證明我並非圈外人，
我要展現優雅和自信，
我要展現優雅和自信，
以及表達和傾聽的能力。
04:54
the ability to speak well
and listen closely.
and listen closely.
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只有這樣我的同儕才會認為
我和他們一樣夠格待在那裡。
我和他們一樣夠格待在那裡。
04:57
Only then would my peers see
that I deserved to be there
that I deserved to be there
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05:00
as much as they did.
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05:02
Despite this racial stereotyping
and the discomfort I often felt,
and the discomfort I often felt,
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儘管經常感到種族刻板印象和不適，
05:07
the learning I gained from other aspects
of being at an elite private school
of being at an elite private school
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我在菁英私立學校裡
學到不同的觀點，
學到不同的觀點，
05:11
were incredibly valuable.
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而這非常有價值。
05:14
I was encouraged by my teachers
to explore my curiosity,
to explore my curiosity,
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我的老師鼓勵我探索感興趣的事物、
用新方式挑戰自我，
05:18
to challenge myself in new ways
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並增進有興趣科目的知識。
05:20
and to deepen my understanding
of subjects that fascinated me the most.
of subjects that fascinated me the most.
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05:26
And going to college was the next step.
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進大學是下一步。
05:30
I was excited to take my intellectual
drive and interest in the world of ideas
drive and interest in the world of ideas
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我很開心能把思想動力和興趣
帶進思想界的下一階段，
帶進思想界的下一階段，
05:33
to the next level.
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我渴望參與和同儕及教授的討論，
05:35
I was eager to engage in lively debate
with peers and professors
with peers and professors
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05:40
and with outside speakers;
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以及和外來的講者對談，
05:42
to listen, to learn and gain
a deeper understanding of myself
a deeper understanding of myself
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去聽、去學、以及更深刻
了解自我和他人。
了解自我和他人。
05:46
and of others.
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05:48
While I was fortunate to meet
peers and professors
peers and professors
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然而當幸運遇見喜歡
做同樣事情的同儕和教授時，
做同樣事情的同儕和教授時，
05:51
who were interested
in doing the same thing,
in doing the same thing,
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05:54
my desire to engage with difficult ideas
was also met with resistance.
was also met with resistance.
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我投入困難想法的渴望
也碰到了阻力。
也碰到了阻力。
06:00
To prepare myself to engage
with controversy in the real world,
with controversy in the real world,
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為了準備好自己參與
真實世界的矛盾，
真實世界的矛盾，
06:05
I joined a group that brought
controversial speakers to campus.
controversial speakers to campus.
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我加入一個團體，
他們邀請爭議講者進校園，
他們邀請爭議講者進校園，
06:09
But many people fiercely
opposed this group,
opposed this group,
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但許多人強烈反對這個團體，
06:12
and I received significant pushback
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而我遭受巨大阻力，
06:14
from students, faculty
and my administration.
and my administration.
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那些從學生、教職員
及行政部門來的阻力。
及行政部門來的阻力。
06:20
For many, it was difficult to see
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對許多人來說，很難了解
06:23
how bringing controversial
speakers to campus could be valuable,
speakers to campus could be valuable,
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把爭議講者帶進校園的價值，
06:26
when they caused harm.
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因為他們可能造成傷害；
06:28
And it was disappointing to me
facing personal attacks,
facing personal attacks,
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對我來說，我很失望
要面對人身攻擊，
要面對人身攻擊，
06:32
having my administration cancel speakers
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行政部門取消講者
06:34
and hearing my intentions
distorted by those around me.
distorted by those around me.
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並聽聞那些被旁人扭曲的初衷。
06:39
My work also hurt the feelings of many,
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我的工作也傷害很多人的感受，
06:42
and I understood that.
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我知道的。
06:45
Of course, no one likes being offended,
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當然，沒人喜歡被冒犯，
06:47
and I certainly don't like hearing
controversial speakers
controversial speakers
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我絕對不喜歡聽到爭議講者
06:50
argue that feminism has become
a war against men
a war against men
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爭論女性主義已經變成
一場對男人的戰爭，
一場對男人的戰爭，
06:54
or that blacks have lower IQs than whites.
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或是黑人比白人智商低的言論。
06:57
I also understand
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我也了解，
06:59
that some people have experienced
traumatic experiences in their lives.
traumatic experiences in their lives.
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有些人經歷過創傷經驗。
07:05
And for some, listening to offensive views
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對有些人來說，聽到冒犯性的觀點
07:08
can be like reliving the very traumas
that they've worked so hard to overcome.
that they've worked so hard to overcome.
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就像重新經歷創傷，
那些他們努力克服的創傷。
那些他們努力克服的創傷。
07:13
Many argue that by giving
these people a platform,
these people a platform,
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許多人爭論給這些人
舞台是弊大於利，
舞台是弊大於利，
07:16
you're doing more harm than good,
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每當我聽到這個觀點
07:18
and I'm reminded of this every time
I listen to these points of view
I listen to these points of view
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07:22
and feel my stomach turn.
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就覺得很反胃。
07:25
Yet, tuning out opposing viewpoints
doesn't make them go away,
doesn't make them go away,
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然而，屏除反對觀點在外
並不會讓它消失，
並不會讓它消失，
07:28
because millions of people
agree with them.
agree with them.
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因為仍有上百萬人認同。
07:31
In order to understand
the potential of society
the potential of society
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為了理解社會邁向進步的潛能，
07:33
to progress forward,
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07:35
we need to understand the counterforces.
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我們要了解反對的力量。
07:39
By engaging with controversial
and offensive ideas,
and offensive ideas,
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藉由探討有爭議和有攻擊性的想法，
07:43
I believe that we can find common ground,
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我相信我們能找到共同點，
07:46
if not with the speakers themselves,
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除了演講者本身，
07:49
then with the audiences
they may attract or indoctrinate.
they may attract or indoctrinate.
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也包括被他們吸引
或灌輸觀念的觀眾。
或灌輸觀念的觀眾。
07:53
Through engaging, I believe
that we may reach a better understanding,
that we may reach a better understanding,
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藉由參與，我相信我們能
更加且更深入的了解
07:58
a deeper understanding,
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08:00
of our own beliefs
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各自的想法，
08:01
and preserve the ability
to solve problems,
to solve problems,
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以及維持解決問題的能力，
08:05
which we can't do
if we don't talk to each other
if we don't talk to each other
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我們不能解決問題，
如果不和彼此溝通
如果不和彼此溝通
08:08
and make an effort to be good listeners.
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又不努力成為好聽眾。
08:12
But soon after I announced
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但在我宣布
08:13
that John Derbyshire
would be speaking on campus,
would be speaking on campus,
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德比夏爾要來校園演講不久，
08:16
student backlash erupted on social media.
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學生在社交媒體上反彈，
08:19
The tide of resistance,
in fact, was so intense,
in fact, was so intense,
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事實上，抵抗潮非常強烈，
08:22
that my college president
rescinded the invitation.
rescinded the invitation.
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我大學校長因此取消邀請。
08:25
I was deeply disappointed by this
because, as I saw it,
because, as I saw it,
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對此我很失望，因為我發現，
08:28
there would be nothing
that any of my peers or I could do
that any of my peers or I could do
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在我們未來雇主的辦公環境中，
08:32
to silence someone who agreed with him
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我的同儕或我都無法讓
與校長持有相同意見的人沉默。
與校長持有相同意見的人沉默。
08:34
in the office environment
of our future employers.
of our future employers.
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08:38
I look out at what's happening
on college campuses,
on college campuses,
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當我看看大學校園
發生了什麼事時，
發生了什麼事時，
08:41
and I see the anger.
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我看到憤怒，
08:42
And I get it.
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且領受到了，
08:44
But what I wish I could tell people
is that it's worth the discomfort,
is that it's worth the discomfort,
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但我希望跟大家說，
不舒服是值得的，
不舒服是值得的，
08:48
it's worth listening,
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聆聽是值得的，
08:49
and that we're stronger,
not weaker, because of it.
not weaker, because of it.
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而因為如此，我們變得
更堅強而非軟弱。
更堅強而非軟弱。
08:54
When I think about my experiences
with uncomfortable learning,
with uncomfortable learning,
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當我思考讓自己不舒服的學習經驗
08:59
and I reflect upon them,
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並反思時，
09:02
I've found that it's been very difficult
to change the values
to change the values
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我發現很難改變
我所屬知識社群的固有價值觀。
我所屬知識社群的固有價值觀。
09:06
of the intellectual community
that I've been a part of.
that I've been a part of.
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09:10
But I do feel a sense of hope
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但我感到一點希望，
09:12
when I think about the individual
interactions that I've been able to have
interactions that I've been able to have
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當我想起自己的個人互動，
09:15
with students who both support
the work that I'm doing
the work that I'm doing
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那些支持我工作的學生、
09:18
and who feel challenged by it
and who do not support it.
and who do not support it.
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那些感到受到挑戰的人
和那些反對者。
和那些反對者。
09:23
What I've found is that,
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我了解到
09:24
while it can be difficult to change
the values of a community,
the values of a community,
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改變一個團體的價值觀很難，
09:27
we can gain a lot
from individual interactions.
from individual interactions.
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但我們可以從個人互動中獲得很多。
09:31
While I didn't get to engage
with John Derbyshire
with John Derbyshire
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儘管我沒辦法和德比夏爾對談——
09:34
due to my president's disinvitation,
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因為校長取消邀請——
09:36
I was able to have dinner
with Charles Murray before his talk.
with Charles Murray before his talk.
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我還是和查爾斯·莫里
在演講前共進晚餐。
在演講前共進晚餐。
09:42
I knew the conversation
would be difficult.
would be difficult.
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我知道對話很困難，
09:44
And I didn't expect it to be pleasant.
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我也不期待會很愉快，
09:47
But it was cordial, and I did gain
a deeper understanding of his arguments.
a deeper understanding of his arguments.
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但那晚很平順，且我確實
更了解他的論點。
更了解他的論點。
09:53
I found that he, like me,
believed in creating a more just society.
believed in creating a more just society.
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我發現他和我一樣，
相信能建造一個更公正的社會，
相信能建造一個更公正的社會，
09:58
The thing is, his understanding
of what justice entailed
of what justice entailed
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關鍵是，他認知的正義
10:02
was very different from my own.
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和我的非常不同；
10:04
The way in which he wanted
to understand the issue,
to understand the issue,
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他想了解這議題的方式、
10:07
the way in which he wanted
to approach the issue of inequality
to approach the issue of inequality
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他想解決不平等議題的方式，
10:10
also differed from my own.
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也和我的不同。
10:12
And I found that his understanding
of issues like welfare
of issues like welfare
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我發現他對於像福利
和平權運動議題的認識
和平權運動議題的認識
10:15
and affirmative action
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10:17
was tied and deeply rooted
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與他對自由主義
和保守信仰的理解緊密相連，
和保守信仰的理解緊密相連，
10:19
in his understanding of various
libertarian and conservative beliefs,
libertarian and conservative beliefs,
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10:23
what diminishes and increases
their presence in our society.
their presence in our society.
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而它們或多或少存在社會裡。
10:27
While he expressed
his viewpoints eloquently,
his viewpoints eloquently,
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雖然他振振有詞地解釋他的觀點，
10:30
I remained thoroughly unconvinced.
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我依然沒被說服，
10:32
But I did walk away
with a deeper understanding.
with a deeper understanding.
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但對談後我確實有更深入的理解。
10:36
It's my belief
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我相信，
10:39
that to achieve progress
in the face of adversity,
in the face of adversity,
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要在逆境中得到成長，
10:43
we need a genuine commitment
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我們需要真正的投入，
10:46
to gaining a deeper
understanding of humanity.
understanding of humanity.
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去更深入了解人性。
10:50
I'd like to see a world with more leaders
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我想看到的世界是有更多領導者
10:52
who are familiar with
the depths of the views
the depths of the views
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熟悉那些他們強烈反對的觀點，
10:54
of those they deeply disagree with,
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10:58
so that they can understand the nuances
of everyone they're representing.
of everyone they're representing.
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如此他們能了解
每個人代表的細微差異。
每個人代表的細微差異。
11:03
I see this as an ongoing process
involving constant learning,
involving constant learning,
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我認為這是不斷學習的過程，
11:07
and I'm confident that I'll be able
to add value down the line
to add value down the line
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且我有信心能不斷提升其價值，
11:11
if I continue building empathy
and understanding
and understanding
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如果我一直嘗試
去建立同理心及理解他人，
去建立同理心及理解他人，
11:13
through engaging
with unfamiliar perspectives.
with unfamiliar perspectives.
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藉由探究那些不熟悉的觀點。
11:16
Thank you.
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謝謝。
11:17
(Applause)
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（鼓掌）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Zachary R. Wood - Crusader for dialogueAs the head of a student group called Uncomfortable Learning, Zachary R. Wood made a point of engaging in conversation with people he disagreed with.
Why you should listen
Zachary R. Wood wants to encourage open conversations about hard topics. He is a Robert L. Bartley Fellow at The Wall Street Journal and a class of 2018 graduate of Williams College, where he served as president of Uncomfortable Learning, a student group that sparked national controversy for inviting provocative speakers to campus, from John Derbyshire to Charles Murray. Wood's defense of such conversations led him to give Senate testimony in the summer of 2017.
His recent writing has appeared in The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, The Huffington Post, The Nation, The Weekly Standard, Times Higher Education, Inside Higher Ed, Jet and SLAM Magazine. In 2018, he'll publish Uncensored, a book that tells his own personal story to enrich and deepen his work as an advocate for difficult conversations. You can reach him at zachwood2448@gmail.com.
Zachary R. Wood | Speaker | TED.com