TEDGlobal>Geneva
Dambisa Moyo: Economic growth has stalled. Let's fix it
丹碧莎．莫尤: 經濟成長已經停滯，讓我們修正它吧！
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經濟成長是我們這個世代的關鍵挑戰；沒有經濟成長，政治及社會的不穩定會上升，人類的進步會停滯且社會變得黑暗。但，經濟學家丹碧莎．莫尤說，資本主義本身目前已經不能創造我們所需的成長。她表示，無論是國家支持或市場主導的模式，資本主義現今已經無法解決社會問題，甚至孳生腐敗、拉大收入不公平的現象。莫尤調查了現今的經濟模式並建議我們必須開始思考將資本主義視為一道光譜，如此我們才能混合不同模式的優點來促進經濟成長。
Dambisa Moyo - Global economist
Dambisa Moyo is an international economist who analyzes the macroeconomy and global affairs. Full bio
Dambisa Moyo is an international economist who analyzes the macroeconomy and global affairs. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
Our ability to create
and sustain economic growth
and sustain economic growth
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我們創造及維持經濟成長的能力
00:18
is the defining challenge of our time.
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是我們這個世代的關鍵性挑戰。
00:21
Of course there are other challenges --
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當然還有其他挑戰--
00:23
health care, disease burdens
and pandemics,
and pandemics,
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衛生保健、疾病負擔、流行病、
00:26
environmental challenges
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環境變遷的挑戰、
當然，還有激進的恐怖主義。
00:29
and, of course, radicalized terrorism.
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00:32
However,
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然而，
00:34
to the extent that we can actually
solve the economic growth challenge,
solve the economic growth challenge,
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以我們實際上能解決
經濟成長挑戰的程度而言，
經濟成長挑戰的程度而言，
若要解決我剛剛說明的那些挑戰，
00:38
it will take us a long way
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00:40
to solving the challenges
that I've just elucidated.
that I've just elucidated.
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我們還有很長的路要走。
00:43
More importantly,
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更重要的是，
00:45
unless and until we solve economic growth
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除非直到我們解決
並創造了穩定、永續的經濟成長，
並創造了穩定、永續的經濟成長，
00:49
and create sustainable,
long-term economic growth,
long-term economic growth,
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00:53
we'll be unable to address
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否則我們將不能解決
看起來很棘手、如今仍瀰漫全球的挑戰，
看起來很棘手、如今仍瀰漫全球的挑戰，
00:56
the seemingly intractable challenges
that continue to pervade the globe today,
that continue to pervade the globe today,
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01:01
whether it's health care,
education or economic development.
education or economic development.
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不管是衛生保健、教育或經濟發展。
01:06
The fundamental question is this:
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最基本的問題是：
我們要如何
01:09
How are we going to create economic growth
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在高度發達的經濟體，像美國和歐洲，
01:12
in advanced and developed economies
like the United States and across Europe
like the United States and across Europe
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在他們經歷金融危後，
現仍持續掙扎的狀況下，
現仍持續掙扎的狀況下，
01:16
at a time when they continue to struggle
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01:18
to create economic growth
after the financial crisis?
after the financial crisis?
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還可以繼續創造經濟成長呢？
01:22
They continue to underperform
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他們持續表現得不如預期，
01:25
and to see an erosion in the three
key drivers of economic growth:
key drivers of economic growth:
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而且還可以看出在經濟成長
的三大要素上出現了衰敗現象：
的三大要素上出現了衰敗現象：
資本、勞動力、生產力。
01:30
capital, labor and productivity.
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特別是，
01:34
In particular,
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01:35
these developed economies
continue to see debts and deficits,
continue to see debts and deficits,
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那些發達的經濟體中，
持續有負債、財政赤字、
持續有負債、財政赤字、
01:40
the decline and erosion
of both the quality and quantity of labor
of both the quality and quantity of labor
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勞動力質量與數量上的下降與侵蝕、
01:45
and they also see productivity stalling.
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同時也看到生產力停滯現象。
01:48
In a similar vein,
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同樣的脈絡下，
01:50
how are we going to create
economic growth in the emerging markets,
economic growth in the emerging markets,
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我們要如何在
擁有 90% 世界人口居住的地方
01:53
where 90 percent
of the world's population lives
of the world's population lives
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且 70% 人口平均年齡在 25 歲以下
的新興市場中
的新興市場中
01:57
and where, on average,
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01:58
70 percent of the population
is under the age of 25?
is under the age of 25?
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持續創造經濟成長？
02:02
In these countries,
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在這些國家中，
02:04
it is essential that they grow
at a minimum of seven percent a year
at a minimum of seven percent a year
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至少要 7% 的年增長率
02:08
in order to put a dent in poverty
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才能減少貧困現象
02:10
and to double per capita incomes
in one generation.
in one generation.
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以及讓人均資本所得可在
一個世代的時間內加倍成長。
一個世代的時間內加倍成長。
02:14
And yet today,
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但如今，
02:16
the largest emerging economies --
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最大的新興經濟體
02:18
countries with at least
50 million people --
50 million people --
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--人口至少5000萬的國家--
02:21
continue to struggle to reach
that seven percent magic mark.
that seven percent magic mark.
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仍在為那 7% 的「魔法數字」掙扎著。
更糟的是，
02:25
Worse than that,
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02:27
countries like India, Russia,
South Africa, Brazil and even China
South Africa, Brazil and even China
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像印度、俄羅斯、南非、
巴西，甚至是中國這些國家，
巴西，甚至是中國這些國家，
02:31
are falling below
that seven percent number
that seven percent number
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現今已低於 7% 這個數字，
02:34
and, in many cases, actually regressing.
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而且，很多國家實際上正在倒退。
02:37
Economic growth matters.
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經濟成長是十分重要的。
02:40
With economic growth,
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有了經濟成長，
02:41
countries and societies
enter into a virtuous cycle
enter into a virtuous cycle
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國家及社會才會進入一個良性循環，
02:46
of upward mobility, opportunity
and improved living standards.
and improved living standards.
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包含社會經濟地位的上升、
就業機會及改善生活水平。
就業機會及改善生活水平。
02:51
Without growth,
countries contract and atrophy,
countries contract and atrophy,
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沒有增長，國家會緊縮與衰退，
02:55
not just in the annals
of economic statistics
of economic statistics
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不僅是年度經濟統計數字，
02:58
but also in the meaning of life
and how lives are lived.
and how lives are lived.
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還包括生命的意義與生活的品質。
03:02
Economic growth matters
powerfully for the individual.
powerfully for the individual.
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經濟成長對個人也十分的重要。
03:07
If growth wanes,
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一旦成長的趨勢衰退，
03:08
the risk to human progress
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人類進步的風險、
03:10
and the risk of political
and social instability rises,
and social instability rises,
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以及政局和社會不穩定的風險就會上升，
03:15
and societies become dimmer,
coarser and smaller.
coarser and smaller.
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而社會就會更加黑暗、動盪與渺小。
環境條件很重要。
03:20
The context matters.
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03:22
And countries in emerging markets
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新興市場的國家，
03:23
do not need to grow at the same
rates as developed countries.
rates as developed countries.
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不需要像已開發國家那樣的成長率。
03:29
Now, I know some of you in this room
find this to be a risky proposition.
find this to be a risky proposition.
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現在，我知道在場有些人
會覺得我接來說的是個大膽的論點。
會覺得我接來說的是個大膽的論點。
這裡有些人，
03:34
There are some people here
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03:36
who will turn around
and be quite disillusioned
and be quite disillusioned
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會轉身過去不理會
並對世界周遭發生的事情
並對世界周遭發生的事情
03:39
by what's happened around the world
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不抱任何希望，
03:40
and basically ascribe that
to economic growth.
to economic growth.
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且基本上，還把罪怪在經濟成長上。
03:44
You worry about the
overpopulation of the planet.
overpopulation of the planet.
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你擔心地球上人口過剩，
03:47
And looking at the UN's
recent statistics and projections
recent statistics and projections
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並看著聯合國最近的統計及規劃，
03:50
that the world will have
11 billion people on the planet
11 billion people on the planet
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了解到地球會在公元 2100 年以前
03:53
before it plateaus in 2100,
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來到 110 億的人口數量，
03:56
you're concerned about what that does
to natural resources --
to natural resources --
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你擔心這對自然資源
會造成甚麼樣的衝擊--
會造成甚麼樣的衝擊--
03:59
arable land, potable water,
energy and minerals.
energy and minerals.
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可耕種的土地、
可飲用的水資源、能源、礦產。
可飲用的水資源、能源、礦產。
04:04
You are also concerned about
the degradation of the environment.
the degradation of the environment.
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你也擔心環境的惡化。
你也會擔心，
04:08
And you worry about how man,
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人們在支持企業全球化的體現，
04:11
embodied in the corporate globalist,
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04:14
has become greedy and corrupt.
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怎麼變得這麼貪婪與腐敗。
但我今天要告訴各位，
04:18
But I'm here to tell you today
that economic growth
that economic growth
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經濟成長已經成為
04:21
has been the backbone
of changes in living standards
of changes in living standards
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全世界好幾百萬人
改變生活水平的骨幹。
改變生活水平的骨幹。
04:25
of millions of people around the world.
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而且更重要的是，
04:27
And more importantly,
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04:29
it's not just economic growth
that has been driven by capitalism.
that has been driven by capitalism.
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經濟成長並不是
只被資本主義所主導。
只被資本主義所主導。
04:36
The definition of capitalism,
very simply put,
very simply put,
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資本主義的定義，簡單的說，
就是那些生產力因素，
04:39
is that the factors of production,
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04:41
such as trade and industry,
capital and labor,
capital and labor,
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像是，貿易、工業、資本和勞動力，
04:45
are left in the hands
of the private sector and not the state.
of the private sector and not the state.
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掌握在私人企業而非國家手上的部分。
在這裡很重要的一點，我們要知道，
04:49
It's really essential here
that we understand
that we understand
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04:52
that fundamentally the critique
is not for economic growth per se
is not for economic growth per se
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基本上應該被指責的
不是經濟成長本身，
不是經濟成長本身，
04:57
but what has happened to capitalism.
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而是資本主義出了甚麼問題。
04:59
And to the extent that we need to create
economic growth over the long term,
economic growth over the long term,
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所以若考量到我們長期
需要創造經濟成長率的廣度，
需要創造經濟成長率的廣度，
05:03
we're going to have to pursue it
with a better form of economic stance.
with a better form of economic stance.
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我們就要用比較好的
經濟角度方式去追尋它。
經濟角度方式去追尋它。
05:09
Economic growth needs capitalism,
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經濟成長需要資本主義，
05:12
but it needs it to work properly.
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但要好好地進行。
05:14
And as I mentioned a moment ago,
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正如我稍早提過的，
05:17
the core of the capitalist system
has been defined by private actors.
has been defined by private actors.
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資本主義系統的核心已被定義為
以私人企業所主導。
以私人企業所主導。
05:23
And even this, however,
is a very simplistic dichotomy.
is a very simplistic dichotomy.
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然而，即使這只是很簡單的二分法。
05:27
Capitalism: good; non-capitalism: bad.
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資本主義：好；非資本主義：不好。
05:31
When in practical experience,
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但以實務操作而言，
05:33
capitalism is much more of a spectrum.
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資本主義像是個光譜。
（資本的分配有很多種方式）
（資本的分配有很多種方式）
05:36
And we have countries such as China,
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我們有像是中國這類的國家，
05:38
which have practiced
more state capitalism,
more state capitalism,
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實施的資本主義
較傾向於「國家」主導。
較傾向於「國家」主導。
05:41
and we have countries
like the Unites States
like the Unites States
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也有像美國這類的國家，
05:43
which are more market capitalist.
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實施的資本主義
較傾向於「市場」主導。
較傾向於「市場」主導。
05:45
Our efforts to critique
the capitalist system, however,
the capitalist system, however,
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然而，我們對資本主義的批評
05:48
have tended to focus
on countries like China
on countries like China
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大部分是針對像中國那種
擺明不是純市場資本主義的國家。
擺明不是純市場資本主義的國家。
05:51
that are in fact
not blatantly market capitalism.
not blatantly market capitalism.
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然而，我們有一個真正的理由
及真正要注意的地方就是
及真正要注意的地方就是
05:55
However, there is
a real reason and real concern
a real reason and real concern
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05:59
for us to now focus our attentions
on purer forms of capitalism,
on purer forms of capitalism,
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現在要把注意力放在
有較單純架構的資本主義上面，
有較單純架構的資本主義上面，
06:03
particularly those embodied
by the United States.
by the United States.
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特別是那些由美國
體現出來的資本主義。
體現出來的資本主義。
這真的很重要，
06:07
This is really important
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06:09
because this type of capitalism
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因為這類的資本主義，
06:11
has increasingly
been afforded the critique
been afforded the critique
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它正在孳生腐敗，
06:14
that it is now fostering corruption
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批判的聲音不斷地增加，
06:17
and, worse still,
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而更糟的是，
06:18
it's increasing income inequality --
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收入不公平的現象一直在持續擴大--
06:22
the idea that the few are benefiting
at the expense of the many.
at the expense of the many.
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也就是少數人享受著
多數人勞動成果的問題。
多數人勞動成果的問題。
有兩個真正的關鍵
我們需要解決，
我們需要解決，
06:28
The two really critical questions
that we need to address
that we need to address
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06:32
is how can we fix capitalism
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就是，我們要如何修正資本主義，
06:34
so that it can help create economic growth
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讓它可以幫助創造經濟成長，
06:37
but at the same time
can help to address social ills.
can help to address social ills.
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同時幫助解決社會弊端。
06:41
In order to think about that framing,
we have to ask ourselves,
we have to ask ourselves,
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為了要思考這個架構，
我們必須問我們自己，
我們必須問我們自己，
06:45
how does capitalism work today?
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現今的資本主義是如何運作的？
06:47
Very simplistically,
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非常簡單，
06:49
capitalism is set on the basis
of an individual utility maximizer --
of an individual utility maximizer --
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資本主義是架構在
個人利益最大化上--
個人利益最大化上--
06:55
a selfish individual
who goes after what he or she wants.
who goes after what he or she wants.
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讓一個謀私利的個體
去追尋他或她想要的。
去追尋他或她想要的。
07:00
And only after they've
maximized their utility
maximized their utility
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也唯有在他們的利益獲得最大化後，
07:03
do they then decide it's important
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他們才會去認真思考，
07:05
to provide support
to other social contracts.
to other social contracts.
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提供援助履行「社會契約」的重要性。
07:09
Of course, in this system
governments do tax,
governments do tax,
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當然，在這系統下，政府會抽稅，
07:12
and they use part of their revenues
to fund social programs,
to fund social programs,
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然後再用部分的稅收
來提供社會福利，
來提供社會福利，
07:16
recognizing that government's role
is not just regulation
is not just regulation
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為的是讓人民知道，政府的角色
不是只有立法管理，
不是只有立法管理，
07:19
but also to be arbiter of social goods.
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同時也扮演了社會福利仲裁者的角色。
07:23
But nevertheless,
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但儘管如此，
07:24
this framework --
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這個框架結構--
07:26
this two-stage framework --
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這兩個階段的框架結構--
07:28
is the basis from which we must now start
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是我們現在必須開始思考
07:30
to think about how we can
improve the capitalist model.
improve the capitalist model.
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要如何改善資本主義模式的基礎。
07:33
I would argue that there are
two sides to this challenge.
two sides to this challenge.
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我認為這個挑戰有兩方面。
07:37
First of all,
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首先，
07:38
we can draw on the right-wing policies
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我們可以借鑒右翼政策，
07:41
to see what could be beneficial for us
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去看看對我們有甚麼利益
07:43
to think about how
we can improve capitalism.
we can improve capitalism.
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去思考如何改善資本主義。
特別是，
07:46
In particular,
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07:47
right-leaning policies
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右傾的政策
07:49
have tended to focus on things
like conditional transfers,
like conditional transfers,
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已經傾向專注於像是
「條件式補助」的事情上，
「條件式補助」的事情上，
就是我們支付並獎勵人民進行
07:52
where we pay and reward people
for doing the things
for doing the things
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那些我們認為可以
幫助經濟成長的事。
幫助經濟成長的事。
07:56
that we actually think
can help enhance economic growth.
can help enhance economic growth.
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07:59
For example,
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例如，
08:00
sending children to school,
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送小孩上學，
08:02
parents could earn money for that,
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父母可以得到補助酬賞，
08:04
or getting their children
inoculated or immunized,
inoculated or immunized,
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或者讓他們的孩子注射疫苗，
08:08
parents could get paid for doing that.
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父母可以因此得到酬賞，
08:10
Now, quite apart from the debate
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現在，不用去爭論
08:12
on whether or not
we should be paying people
we should be paying people
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我們是否應該提供酬賞
08:14
to do what we think they should do anyway,
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支付給父母親做他們
本來就應該做的事，
本來就應該做的事，
08:17
the fact of the matter
is that pay for performance
is that pay for performance
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真正重要的事實是，
這種酬賞的實行
這種酬賞的實行
08:20
has actually yielded some positive results
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已經產生一些正向的結果，
08:23
in places like Mexico,
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像是在墨西哥這個地方、
08:24
in Brazil
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在巴西，
08:26
and also in pilot programs in New York.
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以及在紐約試辦的計畫。
08:29
But there are also benefits
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但在左傾政策上也有一些
福利政策及顯著的變革正在進行。
福利政策及顯著的變革正在進行。
08:31
and significant changes underway
on left-leaning policies.
on left-leaning policies.
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08:35
Arguments that government should
expand its role and responsibility
expand its role and responsibility
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他們的論點是：
政府應該擴大它的角色及責任，
政府應該擴大它的角色及責任，
讓它不再是那麼狹隘地
被舊思維所定義，
被舊思維所定義，
08:40
so that it's not so narrowly defined
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08:42
and that government should be
much more of an arbiter
much more of an arbiter
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而是要讓政府扮演生產力要素的
仲裁者角色，
仲裁者角色，
08:44
of the factors of production
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08:46
have become commonplace
with the success of China.
with the success of China.
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而這些論點在中國已經是
司空見慣的成功模式。
司空見慣的成功模式。
08:49
But also we've started to have debates
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但同時我們也要開始辯論
08:51
about how the role of the private sector
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有關於私人企業該扮演的角色
08:54
should move away
from just being a profit motive
from just being a profit motive
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應該跳脫只顧營利的動機，
08:56
and really be more engaged
in the delivery of social programs.
in the delivery of social programs.
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而真正地更加投入社會計畫。
09:00
Things like the corporate
social responsibility programs,
social responsibility programs,
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像是企業的社會責任計畫，
09:03
albeit small in scale,
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即使規模不大，
09:05
are moving in that right direction.
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也是往正確的方向在進行。
09:07
Of course, left-leaning policies
have also tended to blur the lines
have also tended to blur the lines
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當然，左傾政策也已經模糊了，
政府與非政府組織及私人企業的界線。
09:13
between government,
NGOs and private sector.
NGOs and private sector.
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09:16
Two very good examples of this
are the 19th-century United States,
are the 19th-century United States,
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這個概念有兩個很好的例子，
一個是 19 世紀的美國，
一個是 19 世紀的美國，
當時推出的基礎設施計劃
09:20
when the infrastructure rollout
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09:22
was really about
public-private partnerships.
public-private partnerships.
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真的就是「公辦私營」的夥伴關係。
09:25
More recently, of course,
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更近一點，當然，
09:27
the advent of the Internet
has also proven to the world
has also proven to the world
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網際網路的出現，已經向世界證明
公眾與私人是可以一起合作改善社會。
09:30
that public and private can work together
for the betterment of society.
for the betterment of society.
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09:36
My fundamental message to you is this:
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我要給各位傳達的基本訊息就是：
09:39
We cannot continue to try and solve
the world economic growth challenges
the world economic growth challenges
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我們不能藉由固執己見或
堅持不必要的意識形態來
堅持不必要的意識形態來
09:44
by being dogmatic
and being unnecessarily ideological.
and being unnecessarily ideological.
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繼續嘗試並解決世界經濟成長的挑戰。
09:49
In order to create sustainable,
long-term economic growth
long-term economic growth
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為了創造穩定長期的經濟成長，
09:53
and solve the challenges and social ills
that continue to plague the world today,
that continue to plague the world today,
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並解決挑戰與現今
持續瀰漫在全球的社會問題，
持續瀰漫在全球的社會問題，
09:57
we're going to have to be
more broad-minded
more broad-minded
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我們必須要有更包容的心胸
10:00
about what might work.
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了解甚麼是可行的。
10:02
Ultimately,
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最後，
10:03
we have to recognize
that ideology is the enemy of growth.
that ideology is the enemy of growth.
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我們必須要認清
意識形態是成長的敵人。
意識形態是成長的敵人。
10:08
Thank you.
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謝謝
10:09
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
Bruno Giussani：
我想要問一些問題，丹碧莎，
我想要問一些問題，丹碧莎，
10:15
Bruno Giussani: I want to ask
a couple of questions, Dambisa,
a couple of questions, Dambisa,
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因為有人可以對你最後一句話做回應，
10:18
because one could react
to your last sentence
to your last sentence
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就是，成長的本身也是一種意識形態，
10:20
by saying growth is also an ideology,
193
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1816
它可能就是我們這一世代
最主要的意識形態，
最主要的意識形態，
10:22
it's possibly the dominant
ideology of our times.
ideology of our times.
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如果有人這麼回應，你要怎麼回答？
10:24
What do you say
to those who react that way?
to those who react that way?
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DM：好的，我認為這完全合理，
10:26
DM: Well, I think that that's
completely legitimate,
completely legitimate,
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我認為我們已經討論過，
10:29
and I think that we're already
having that discussion.
having that discussion.
197
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針對幸福這件事還有很多工作要做，
10:31
There's a lot of work
going on around happiness
going on around happiness
198
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2216
10:33
and other metrics being used
for measuring people's success
for measuring people's success
199
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而且，還要其他的測量方式
可以衡量人們的成功，
可以衡量人們的成功，
10:37
and improvements in living standards.
200
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以及生活水平的改善。
10:39
And so I think that we should be open
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所以，我認為我們應該敞開心胸，
10:41
to what could deliver improvements
in people's living standards
in people's living standards
202
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討論做甚麼事可以增進人類的生活水平，
並且持續減少世界上的貧窮現象。
10:44
and continue to reduce
poverty around the world.
poverty around the world.
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10:46
BG: So you're basically pleading
for rehabilitating growth,
for rehabilitating growth,
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BG：所以，基本上，你是在為
「回復成長」辯護，
「回復成長」辯護，
但是唯一
10:49
but the only way for that happen
205
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能帶領我們走向
10:51
without compromising
the capacity of the earth,
the capacity of the earth,
206
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不犧牲掉地球利益的
長期發展之路，
長期發展之路，
10:53
to take us on a long journey,
207
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10:54
is for economic growth
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就是要讓經濟成長
10:56
somehow to decouple
from the underlying use of resources.
from the underlying use of resources.
209
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與某一種「資源的潛在利用方式」脫鉤。
10:59
Do you see that happening?
210
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你認為這會發生嗎？
11:00
DM: Well, I think that I'm more optimistic
about human ability and ingenuity.
about human ability and ingenuity.
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DM：恩，我認為我對人類的能力與智慧
是持比較樂觀的看法。
是持比較樂觀的看法。
11:05
I think if we start to constrain ourselves
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我想，如果我們開始
約束自己使用我們今日所知道的
有限、稀有、耗盡中的資源，
有限、稀有、耗盡中的資源，
11:07
using the finite, scarce
and depleting resources
and depleting resources
213
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11:10
that we know today,
214
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我們就會變得相當負面
(對經濟成長)
(對經濟成長)
11:11
we could get quite negative
215
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11:13
and quite concerned
about the way the world is.
about the way the world is.
216
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2216
而且相當擔心世界會變如何。
11:15
However, we've seen the Club of Rome,
217
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然而，我們已經看到羅馬俱樂部，
11:17
we've seen previous claims
218
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我們已經看到之前的聲明，
11:20
that the world would be
running out of resources,
running out of resources,
219
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2336
全世界的資源會被消耗殆盡，
11:22
and it's not to argue
that those things are not valid.
that those things are not valid.
220
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不用去爭論這些事情不可能。
11:25
But I think, with ingenuity
we could see desalination,
we could see desalination,
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但我想，我們可以用智慧
去慢慢減少資源的使用。
去慢慢減少資源的使用。
11:27
I think we could reinvest in energy,
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我想，我們可以再投資到能源上面，
11:29
so that we can actually
get better outcomes.
get better outcomes.
223
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如此我們就可以得到更好的結果。
11:31
And so in that sense,
224
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所以在這概念底下，
11:33
I'm much more optimistic
about what humans can do.
about what humans can do.
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對人類可以怎麼做，
我是持比較樂觀的看法。
我是持比較樂觀的看法。
11:35
BG: The thing that strikes me
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BG：有件事讓我印象深刻，
11:37
about your proposals
for rehabilitating growth
for rehabilitating growth
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就是有關於妳對回複經濟成長的提議，
11:40
and taking a different direction
228
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裡面提到了一個不一樣的方向，
11:42
is that you're kind of suggesting
to fix capitalism with more capitalism --
to fix capitalism with more capitalism --
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你好像建議用更多的資本主義
去修正資本主義，
去修正資本主義，
11:47
with putting a price tag
on good behavior as incentive
on good behavior as incentive
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像是，在「好的行為」上
放上一個價格標籤做為誘因，
放上一個價格標籤做為誘因，
11:50
or developing a bigger role
for business in social issues.
for business in social issues.
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或者在社會議題上，
讓企業扮演一個更大的角色，
讓企業扮演一個更大的角色，
11:54
Is that what you're suggesting?
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這是妳建議的嗎？
11:56
DM: I'm suggesting
we have to be open-minded.
we have to be open-minded.
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DM：我是建議，我們必須要開闊心胸。
11:58
I think it is absolutely the case
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我想這絕對是一個問題，
12:00
that traditional models of economic growth
235
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就是，傳統的經濟成長模式
12:03
are not working the way
we would like them to.
we would like them to.
236
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已經無法達到我們要它達成的目標。
12:05
And I think it's no accident
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我想，這並不意外，
12:07
that today the largest
economy in the world, the United States,
economy in the world, the United States,
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現今，世界最大的經濟體，美國，
12:11
has democracy,
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有民主、
12:12
liberal democracy,
as it's core political stance
as it's core political stance
240
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自由民主，作為它的核心政治立場，
12:15
and it has free market capitalism --
241
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它還有自由的市場資本主義--
12:17
to the extent that it is free --
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某種程度上，它是自由的--
12:19
free market capitalism
as its economic stance.
as its economic stance.
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自由的市場資本主義是它的經濟立場。
12:21
The second largest economy is China.
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第二大經濟體是中國。
12:23
It has deprioritized democracy
245
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它有民主非優先順位的發展制度，
12:25
and it has state capitalism,
which is a completely different model.
which is a completely different model.
246
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它有國家資本主義，
完全是不一樣的模式。
完全是不一樣的模式。
12:29
These two countries,
completely different political models
completely different political models
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這兩個國家，是完全不同的政治模式，
12:31
and completely different economic models,
248
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1976
完全不一樣的經濟模式，
12:33
and yet they have the same
income inequality number
income inequality number
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當然，他們一樣有收入
不平等的現象
不平等的現象
12:36
measured as a Gini coefficient.
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是根據基尼係數所量測出來的。
12:37
I think those are the debates
we should have,
we should have,
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我想，這些就是我們應該要辯論的地方，
12:39
because it's not clear at all
252
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因為我們仍不清楚，
12:42
what model we should be adopting,
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該採取哪一種模式，
12:43
and I think there needs to be
much more discourse
much more discourse
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我想，仍需有更多不同論述，
12:46
and much more humility
about what we know and what we don't know.
about what we know and what we don't know.
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以及更多的謙卑之心來面對
我們所了解及或不了解的事情。
我們所了解及或不了解的事情。
12:49
BG: One last question.
The COP21 is going on in Paris.
The COP21 is going on in Paris.
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BG：最後一個問題，
聯合國氣候變化大會即將在巴黎舉行。
聯合國氣候變化大會即將在巴黎舉行。
12:53
If you could send a tweet
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如果妳可以傳送一條推特訊息
12:54
to all the heads of state
and heads of delegations there,
and heads of delegations there,
258
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3296
給在那邊的所有國家領袖
及代表團團長，
及代表團團長，
12:57
what would you say?
259
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妳會跟他們說甚麼？
12:59
DM: Again, I would be very much
about being open-minded.
about being open-minded.
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DM：我在說明一次，
我很希望大家敞開心胸討論。
我很希望大家敞開心胸討論。
13:02
As you're aware,
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你應該知道的，
13:03
the issues around
the environmental concerns
the environmental concerns
262
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圍繞在關懷環境的議題上
13:05
have been on the agenda many times now --
263
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1976
已經在議程上被提出來很多次--
13:07
in Copenhagen,
'72 in Stockholm --
'72 in Stockholm --
264
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72年在哥本哈根，斯德哥爾摩，
舉辦的聯合國人類環境大會--
舉辦的聯合國人類環境大會--
13:09
and we keep revisiting these issues
265
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我們持續關注這些議題，
13:11
partly because there is not
a fundamental agreement,
a fundamental agreement,
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部分原因是，根本沒有基本的共識協議，
事實上，仍有分歧的意見，
13:15
in fact there's a schism
267
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13:16
between what the developed
countries believe and want
countries believe and want
268
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2736
介於已開發國家的信仰與希望
13:19
and what emerging market countries want.
269
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及新興市場國家的希望。
13:21
Emerging market countries need
to continue to create economic growth
to continue to create economic growth
270
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新興市場國家想要持續的經濟成長，
13:25
so that we don't have political
uncertainty in the those countries.
uncertainty in the those countries.
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這裡面我們沒有
政治不確定性的國家。
政治不確定性的國家。
13:28
Developed countries recognize
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已發展國家承認，
13:30
that they have a real,
important responsibility
important responsibility
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它們真的有很重大的責任，
13:33
not only just to manage
their CO2 emissions
their CO2 emissions
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要負責二氧化碳排放量的管理、
13:35
and some of the degradation
that they're contributing to the world,
that they're contributing to the world,
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還有扛起他們對全世界
所造成破壞的責任，
所造成破壞的責任，
13:39
but also as trendsetters in R&D.
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但也包含帶領全球研發的潮流。
13:40
And so they have to come
to the table as well.
to the table as well.
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所以，他們也必須要上桌討論。
13:43
But in essence, it cannot be a situation
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但大體上，不會有一種狀況就是...
13:45
where we start ascribing policies
to the emerging markets
to the emerging markets
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我們一開始就歸咎新興市場的政策
卻不討論已開發國家本身的政策，
卻不討論已開發國家本身的政策，
13:49
without developed countries themselves
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然後還猛烈抨擊他們在已開發市場的
供需問題上所做的一切。
供需問題上所做的一切。
13:51
also taking quite a swipe
at what they're doing
at what they're doing
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13:54
both in demand and supply
in developed markets.
in developed markets.
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BG：丹碧莎，謝謝妳來 TED ，
DM：非常謝謝你。
DM：非常謝謝你。
13:56
BG: Dambisa, thank you for coming to TED.
DM: Thank you very much.
DM: Thank you very much.
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14:00
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Dambisa Moyo - Global economistDambisa Moyo is an international economist who analyzes the macroeconomy and global affairs.
Why you should listen
Dambisa Moyo's work examines the interplay between rapidly developing countries, international business, and the global economy -- while highlighting opportunities for investment. She has travelled to more than 60 countries over the past decade, studying the political, economic and financial workings of emerging economies, in particular the BRICs and the frontier economies in Asia, South America, Africa and the Middle East. Her latest book, Winner Take All: China’s Race for Resources and What It Means for the World, looks at how commodities markets influence much more than the global economy -- and examines the possible consequences of China's unprecedented rush for commodities such as oil, minerals, water, and food, including the looming specter of commodity-driven conflict.
She is the author of the brilliantly argued Dead Aid: Why Aid Is Not Working and How There Is a Better Way for Africa and How the West Was Lost: Fifty Years of Economic Folly and the Stark Choices Ahead. Previously, she was an economist at Goldman Sachs, where she worked for nearly a decade, and was a consultant to the World Bank in Washington.
Dambisa Moyo | Speaker | TED.com