TEDxSnoIsleLibraries
Bill Bernat: How to connect with depressed friends
比爾 • 柏奈特: 如何和憂鬱症的朋友相處交流
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想要和患有憂鬱症的朋友相處，但不確定要如何和他們互動嗎？喜劇演員兼說書者比爾 • 柏奈特提供了一些建議。瞭解與憂鬱者對談時「該做」和「不該做」的事情 ──下一次跟他們聊天時，我們就可以帶著優雅的風度，甚至是些許幽默來互動了。
Bill Bernat - Mental health awareness advocate
Bill Bernat is a recovering addict living with bipolar condition who advocates for mental health awareness through speaking, comedy and storytelling. Full bio
Bill Bernat is a recovering addict living with bipolar condition who advocates for mental health awareness through speaking, comedy and storytelling. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
The one conversation that uplifted me
more than any other in my life
more than any other in my life
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人生中最讓我振奮的一段對話，
00:18
was with a woman who told me
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是一個女人告訴我，
00:20
how, a few days earlier,
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幾天前，她如何
00:22
she drove her Jeep Wrangler
to the edge of the Grand Canyon
to the edge of the Grand Canyon
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開著她的吉普車到大峽谷的邊緣，
00:26
and sat there, revving the engine,
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坐在那裡，加快引擎的轉速，
00:29
thinking about driving over.
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想著開車衝下去。
00:32
Even though I had severe social anxiety,
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雖然我有過嚴重的社交焦慮症，
00:35
in that conversation,
I was totally at ease.
I was totally at ease.
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在那段對談中，我非常安然自在。
00:38
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
00:39
She told me what was going on in her life
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她告訴我，她開車中去大峽谷之前，
00:42
in the days and months leading up,
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那幾個月經歷了什麼事、
00:44
what her thoughts were
at that exact moment,
at that exact moment,
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那一瞬間她的想法是什麼、
00:46
why she wanted to die,
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為什麼她想尋死，
00:48
and why she didn't do it.
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以及她為何沒有衝下去。
00:50
We nodded and half-smiled,
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我們點頭微笑著，
00:53
and then it was my turn
to talk about my journey
to talk about my journey
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接著就換我講述我的經歷了，
00:55
to a dining table
in the hygienic community area
in the hygienic community area
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那是在山城醫院的心理衛生部門，
01:00
of the mental health wing
of a mountain-town hospital.
of a mountain-town hospital.
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一張公共衛生區的餐桌上。
01:04
I took too many sleeping pills,
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我吃了太多的安眠藥，
01:06
and after they treated me for that,
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院方幫我治療之後，
01:07
they were like, "Hey, we would love it
if you would be our guest
if you would be our guest
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他們說：「嘿，我們
很希望你能夠來我們的
很希望你能夠來我們的
01:13
in the psych ward."
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精神病房做客。」
01:15
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
01:20
We joked that her suicide
would have made a way better postcard.
would have made a way better postcard.
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我們開玩笑說她自殺的照片
可以做成相當不錯的明信片。
可以做成相當不錯的明信片。
01:25
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
01:26
We talked shop.
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我們談論本行。
01:28
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
01:29
She allowed me to be deeply depressed
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她容許我有深刻的憂鬱，
01:32
and have a genuine connection
to another person, simultaneously.
to another person, simultaneously.
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同時還能和另一個人有真誠的連結。
01:37
For the first time,
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這是第一次，
01:38
I identified as somebody
living with depression,
living with depression,
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身為帶著憂鬱症過日子的人，
01:42
and I felt good about it --
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我卻感覺很好 ──
01:43
like I was wasn't a bad person for it.
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彷彿我並不會因為它而變成壞人。
01:46
Now imagine one of the people
at that table was a member of your family
at that table was a member of your family
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想像一下，同桌的
其中一個人是你的家人，
其中一個人是你的家人，
01:51
or a close friend.
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或是親密的朋友。
01:53
Would you be comfortable talking to them?
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你跟他們說話時會自在嗎？
01:55
What if instead of the hospital,
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如果不是在醫院，
01:57
they were at your kitchen table
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他們是坐在你的廚房餐桌，
01:59
and told you they were really depressed?
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告訴你他們真的很憂鬱呢？
02:02
The World Health Organization
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世界衛生組織說，
02:04
says that depression is the leading cause
of ill health and disability worldwide,
of ill health and disability worldwide,
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憂鬱症是造成全球民眾不健康
以及身心障礙的主要成因，
以及身心障礙的主要成因，
02:11
affecting 350 million people.
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有三億五千萬人深受其害。
02:14
The National Institute of Mental Health
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美國國家心理衛生研究院
02:16
reports seven percent of Americans
experiencing depression in a year.
experiencing depression in a year.
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指出在一年中有 7% 的
美國人經歷過憂鬱症。
美國人經歷過憂鬱症。
02:21
So depression is super common,
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所以，憂鬱症是非常普遍的，
02:23
yet in my experience,
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但依我的經驗，
02:26
most folks don't want
to talk to depressed people
to talk to depressed people
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大部分的人並不想和憂鬱的人說話，
02:29
unless we pretend to be happy.
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除非我們假裝自己很快樂。
02:33
A cheerful facade is appropriate
for casual interactions.
for casual interactions.
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平常與人互動時，
做出愉快的表相才適當。
做出愉快的表相才適當。
02:37
A depressed person can ask for extra syrup
in their pumpkin spice latte
in their pumpkin spice latte
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憂鬱的人可以要求在他們的
南瓜香料拿鐵中加入額外的糖漿，
南瓜香料拿鐵中加入額外的糖漿，
02:41
without explaining that they need it
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且不用解釋為何他們需要它，
02:43
because they're trapped
in the infinite darkness of their soul
in the infinite darkness of their soul
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因為他們被困在
自己靈魂的無盡黑暗中，
自己靈魂的無盡黑暗中，
02:47
and they've lost all hope of escape --
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且失去了所有逃脫的希望－
02:49
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
02:51
again.
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再一次地。
02:52
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
02:55
Depression doesn't diminish
a person's desire
a person's desire
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憂鬱並不會減少一個人
02:58
to connect with other people,
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與他人交流的渴望，
03:00
just their ability.
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只是影響到交際能力而已。
03:02
So in spite of what you might think,
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事實跟你想的其實不太一樣，
03:05
talking to friends and family
living with depression
living with depression
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和患有憂鬱症的朋友及家人說話
03:07
can be really easy and maybe even fun.
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可以是很容易、甚至是很有趣的。
03:11
Not, like, Facebook-selfie-with-Lady-Gaga-
at-an-underground-party fun --
at-an-underground-party fun --
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並不是像「在臉書上貼與女神卡卡
在地下派對中的自拍」那種有趣──
在地下派對中的自拍」那種有趣──
03:17
I'm talking about the kind of fun
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我在談的有趣，
03:19
where people enjoy
each other's company effortlessly.
each other's company effortlessly.
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是人們毫不費力地享受彼此的倍伴。
03:23
Nobody feels awkward,
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沒有人覺得尷尬，
03:24
and no one accuses the sad person
of ruining the holidays.
of ruining the holidays.
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沒有人會指控悲傷的
那個人把假日給毀了。
那個人把假日給毀了。
03:30
Why does this chasm even exist?
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但為什麼這種隔閡會存在？
03:33
On the one side,
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在一邊，
03:35
you have people living with depression
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是有憂鬱症的人，
03:37
who may act in off-putting
or confusing ways
or confusing ways
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他們行事的方式可能會
令人厭惡或讓人困惑，
令人厭惡或讓人困惑，
03:40
because they're fighting
a war in their head
a war in their head
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因為他們腦袋中正在打一場仗，
03:43
that nobody else can see.
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這是別人都看不見的。
03:45
On the other side,
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另一邊，
03:48
the vast majority of people
look across the chasm
look across the chasm
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是絕大部分的人望著隔閡的另一頭，
03:51
and shake their heads,
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一邊搖頭，
03:52
like, "Why you gotta be so depressed?"
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說：「你們幹嘛這麼憂鬱？」
03:56
You may recognize
a divide like this in your life.
a divide like this in your life.
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在你們生活中可能會看見這種隔閡。
04:01
Do you want to build a bridge across it?
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你們想要架座橋來跨越它嗎？
04:03
You may not want to build a bridge --
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你們可能不會想架座橋──
04:05
and that's a totally valid choice.
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那是個百分百合理的選擇。
04:09
Or maybe you'd like to build
a stronger connection,
a stronger connection,
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或者你想要建立比較強的連結交流，
04:12
but you have a lot
of questions and concerns.
of questions and concerns.
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但你有很多的疑問和擔心的事。
04:17
You're what I might call "bridge curious."
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這種人被我稱為是「好奇的橋」。
04:20
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
04:24
Here are some possible reasons
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以下是一些可能的原因，
04:26
why some of you
may avoid depressed people.
may avoid depressed people.
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說明為什麼你們有些人
會想要避開憂鬱症的人。
會想要避開憂鬱症的人。
04:29
You might be afraid
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你可能會害怕
04:31
that if you talk to somebody
while they're depressed,
while they're depressed,
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如果你去跟一個憂鬱症患者說話，
04:33
you're suddenly responsible
for their well-being.
for their well-being.
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突然間你就要為他們的幸福負責了。
04:37
You're not expected to be Dr. Phil.
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並沒有人期待你成為
心理治療大師費爾醫生。
心理治療大師費爾醫生。
04:40
Just be friendly --
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你只要表現出友善態度就好，
04:42
more like Ellen.
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像脫口秀主持人艾倫那樣就可以。
04:43
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
04:47
You may worry that you won't
know what to say,
know what to say,
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你可能會擔心不知道要說什麼，
04:50
and every attempt
at conversation will be awkward,
at conversation will be awkward,
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每一次嘗試交談都會很尷尬，
04:55
and the only time you'll feel comfortable
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而只有一種時候你會覺得舒適，
04:57
is when you both just give up on talking
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就是你們雙方都放棄交談，
04:59
and stare at your phones.
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盯著各自的手機看時。
05:02
Words are not the most important
thing to focus on.
thing to focus on.
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交談並非互動中最重要的東西。
05:07
You might fear seeing your shadow.
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你可能會害怕看見自己的影子。
05:12
Hey, if you have been
successfully outrunning
successfully outrunning
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嘿，如果你曾經成功地
05:15
your personal emotional demons,
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從自己的情緒惡魔手中逃脫過，
05:18
that's awesome.
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那很棒。
願你永遠一帆風順。
05:20
May the wind be at your back.
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05:22
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
05:23
You can be the least
woo-woo person in the world
woo-woo person in the world
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就算你是世上最不嗨的人，
05:27
and still connect with depressed people.
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仍可以和有憂鬱症的人連結交流。
05:30
Maybe you've heard
that depression is contagious,
that depression is contagious,
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也許你聽過憂鬱會傳染，
05:33
and you're afraid of catching it.
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而你害怕會感染到。
05:35
Bring some hand sanitizer.
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那就帶一些乾洗手液。
05:37
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
05:38
You're much more likely to catch
the joy of human bonding.
the joy of human bonding.
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你較有可能感染到的
會是人際交流的喜悅。
會是人際交流的喜悅。
也許你對憂鬱症的人有不同看法。
05:43
Maybe you see
depressed people differently.
depressed people differently.
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05:45
You think of them as flawed or defective.
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你認為他們有瑕疵或缺陷。
05:50
Multiple university studies have shown
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數篇大學研究指出，
05:53
that A students are more likely
to have bipolar condition.
to have bipolar condition.
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成績優秀的學生較可能有躁鬱症狀。
05:58
Our brains aren't broken or damaged,
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我們的大腦並沒有壞掉或受損，
06:01
they just work differently.
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只是運作方式不同。
06:03
I spent a lot of years thinking
happy people just don't get it.
happy people just don't get it.
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我一直覺得那些樂天的人就是搞不懂。
06:09
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
06:10
I did eventually stop
discriminating against happy people --
discriminating against happy people --
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我最後停止了歧視快樂的人──
06:14
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
06:18
I began battling depression
when I was eight,
when I was eight,
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我從八歲時就開始對抗憂鬱症，
06:21
and decades later, to my surprise,
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數十年後，讓我很訝異的是，
06:23
I started winning.
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我開始佔上風了。
06:25
I shifted from being miserable
much of the time
much of the time
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我從經常沉溺在憂傷的情緒中，
06:29
to enjoying life.
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到變成能享受人生。
06:31
I live pretty well
with my bipolar condition,
with my bipolar condition,
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我和我的躁鬱症狀和平相處，
06:34
and I've overcome some other
mental health conditions
mental health conditions
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我還克服了一些其他心理健康症狀，
06:36
like overeating, addiction
and social anxiety.
and social anxiety.
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比如暴飲暴食、成癮症，
以及社交焦慮症。
以及社交焦慮症。
06:40
So I live on both sides of this chasm.
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所以我活在這隔閡的兩邊。
06:44
And I'm offering some guidance
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我想提供一些指南，
06:49
based on my experience
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它們是以我的經驗為基礎，
06:52
to help you build a bridge across it
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能協助你們搭橋跨越這隔閡，
06:54
if you want to.
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如果你們想要的話。
06:56
It's not hard science,
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這不是硬科學，
06:58
but I worked with a lot people
I know who've lived with depression
I know who've lived with depression
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我和許多患有憂鬱症的人通力合作，
07:02
to refine these suggestions.
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琢磨出這些建議給大家。
07:06
First up, some things
you might want to avoid --
you might want to avoid --
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首先，你會想要避免這些東西──
07:08
some "don'ts."
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一些「不該做的事」。
07:11
One of the most off-putting
things you can say is,
things you can say is,
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最討人厭的一句話就是：
07:14
"Just get over it."
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「就克服它吧。」
07:17
Great idea -- love it,
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好主意──我喜歡，
07:19
it's just we already thought of that.
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只是我們早就想過這方法了。
07:21
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
07:28
The absence of the ability
to just get over it is depression.
to just get over it is depression.
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所謂的憂鬱症，
就是缺乏克服它的能力。
就是缺乏克服它的能力。
07:32
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
07:36
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
07:41
We feel it in our bodies --
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我們能感覺到憂鬱就在我們的體內──
07:44
it's a physical thing for us.
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它對我們來說是實體的。
07:47
And medically it's no different
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在醫學上，這就類似是
07:49
from telling someone
with a broken ankle or cancer,
with a broken ankle or cancer,
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告訴一個腳踝斷裂或得癌症的人：
07:51
"just get over it."
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「就克服它吧。」
07:56
Don't be hell-bent on fixing us.
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不要固執地想要把我們治好。
07:59
Like, thank you, but ...
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我是指，謝謝你，但......
08:03
the pressure can make us depressed people
feel like we're disappointing you.
feel like we're disappointing you.
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這種壓力會讓我們這些憂鬱症的人
覺得我們好像讓你失望了。
覺得我們好像讓你失望了。
08:08
Also, things that make
some people feel better
some people feel better
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而且，能讓某些人提振情緒的事物，
08:11
may not work for us.
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對我們可能沒有用。
08:13
You can't cure clinical depression
by getting ice cream ...
by getting ice cream ...
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你無法用冰淇淋來治癒臨床憂鬱症…
08:17
which is unfortunate, because
that would be living the dream.
that would be living the dream.
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很可惜，不然對我們而言
那會是美夢成真。
那會是美夢成真。
08:21
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
08:25
Don't take a negative response personally.
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別人有負面反應的話，
不要覺得是在針對你。
不要覺得是在針對你。
08:31
So, I have a friend who, about a year ago,
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我有個朋友，大約一年前，
08:34
messaged me that he was really
isolated and depressed.
isolated and depressed.
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傳訊息給我說他覺得被孤立、很憂鬱。
08:38
And I suggested some things for him to do,
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我建議了一些他可以做的事，
08:41
and he was like, "No, no and no."
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他的反應是：「不，不，不。」
08:43
And I got mad,
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我生氣了，
08:44
like, how dare he not embrace
my brilliant wisdom?
my brilliant wisdom?
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心想，他算老幾，怎麼可以
不接受我聰慧的建議呢？
不接受我聰慧的建議呢？
08:48
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
08:50
And then I remembered
times I've been depressed,
times I've been depressed,
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接著我想起自己憂鬱的時候，
08:53
and how I thought I was doomed
in all possible futures,
in all possible futures,
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那時我認為未來注定只有厄運，
08:58
or everybody suddenly hated me,
and things like that.
and things like that.
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或是每個人都會突然討厭我之類的。
09:03
It didn't matter how many people
told me otherwise --
told me otherwise --
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不論多少人告訴我：｢不會這樣的｣，
09:06
I didn't believe them.
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我就是不相信他們。
09:09
So I let my friend know I cared,
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所以，我讓我的朋友知道我在乎他，
09:12
and I didn't take it personally.
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我不會把他的負面反應放在心上。
09:15
Don't let a lack of bubbly
happiness freak you out.
happiness freak you out.
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不要因為沒有夢幻的幸福，
就被嚇壞了。
就被嚇壞了。
09:21
It's not a shark attack.
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那又不是鯊魚攻擊。
09:23
"Call the coast guard, my friend is sad!"
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「快呼叫海岸巡防員，
我朋友在悲傷了！」
我朋友在悲傷了！」
09:26
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
09:28
We can be sad and OK at the same time.
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其實傷心也沒有關係的。
09:32
I'm going to say that again,
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我要再說一次，
09:34
because in our society,
we're taught the opposite,
we're taught the opposite,
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因為在我們的社會中，
學到完全相反的概念，
學到完全相反的概念，
09:37
and so it's counterintuitive.
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所以覺得那是違背直覺的事。
09:40
People can be sad and OK at the same time.
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但人有傷心情緒是沒有關係的。
09:45
So some of these things may apply
to you personally, some may not.
to you personally, some may not.
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以上這些有的可能適用於你，
有的不適用。
有的不適用。
09:48
Take what's useful.
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挑對你有用的。
09:50
And remember, you don't have to connect.
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切記，你不用非得與人交流。
09:55
If you want to,
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如果你想要，
09:57
here are some suggestions that may help --
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以下是一些建議，可能會有幫助──
09:59
some "dos."
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一些「該做的事」。
10:01
Talk to us in your natural voice, right?
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用你自然的聲音跟我們說話，好嗎？
10:04
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
10:06
You don't need to put on a sad voice
because we're depressed --
because we're depressed --
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你不用因為我們很憂鬱
就用悲傷的聲音說話。
就用悲傷的聲音說話。
10:12
you don't sneeze when you're talking
to somebody with a cold.
to somebody with a cold.
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你跟感冒的人說話時，
也不會打噴嚏吧。
也不會打噴嚏吧。
10:15
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
10:18
It's not rude to be upbeat.
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樂觀並不是無禮。
10:20
You can be you, OK?
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你可以做自己，好嗎？
10:23
If you make an offer to be there for us,
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如果你願意為我們盡一份力，
10:26
clearly state what you can and can't do.
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那就明確說清楚你
能做什麼、不能做什麼。
能做什麼、不能做什麼。
10:29
I have told people,
"Hey, call or text any time,
"Hey, call or text any time,
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我曾告訴別人：
「嘿，隨時都可打電話或傳訊息給我，
「嘿，隨時都可打電話或傳訊息給我，
10:32
but I might not be able
to get back to you that same day."
to get back to you that same day."
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但我可能無法在當天回覆你。」
10:36
It's totally cool to not make an offer,
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不提供任何協助也完全沒關係，
10:39
or to make a narrow offer
with really clear boundaries around it.
with really clear boundaries around it.
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或提供清楚有限的協助也可以。
10:45
Give us a sense of control.
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給我們控制感。
10:50
Like, get our consent.
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比如，取得我們的同意。
10:52
I have a friend who, a while back,
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我有個朋友，前陣子，
10:55
when I was having a depressive episode,
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我憂鬱症發作的時候，
她跟我說：「嘿，我想確認你沒事。
10:57
reached out and said,
"Hey, I want to check in with you.
"Hey, I want to check in with you.
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我能否每天打電話給你？
11:00
Can I call you every day?
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11:01
Maybe text you every day
and call later in the week?
and call later in the week?
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也許每天傳訊息給你，
過幾天再打電話？
過幾天再打電話？
怎樣做你比較方便？」
11:03
What works for you?"
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11:06
By getting my permission,
she earned my complete confidence
she earned my complete confidence
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因為先徵詢我的同意，
她得到了我完全的信任，
她得到了我完全的信任，
11:09
and remains one of my best friends today.
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至今仍然是我最好的朋友之一。
11:14
And my last suggestion is:
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我的最後一個建議是：
11:17
interact about not depression,
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針對「不是憂鬱症」的東西來互動，
11:20
aka, normal stuff.
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也就是，一般日常的東西。
11:22
I have a friend who,
when people were worried about him,
when people were worried about him,
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我有一個朋友，那時大家很擔心他，
11:26
they would call and ask
if he wanted to go shopping
if he wanted to go shopping
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他們會打電話問他要不要去購物，
11:29
or help them clean out their garage.
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或協助他們打掃車庫。
11:31
Your depressed friends
could be a good source of free labor --
could be a good source of free labor --
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你的憂鬱症朋友也能成為
很好的免費勞力來源──
很好的免費勞力來源──
11:34
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
11:44
What I'm really getting at is,
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我真正想說的是，
11:47
invite them to contribute
to your life in some way,
to your life in some way,
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邀請他們跟你一起做事情，
11:52
even if it's as small
as asking you to go see a movie
as asking you to go see a movie
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即使是很小的事，
比如找他們去看一場
比如找他們去看一場
11:56
that you wanted to see in the theater.
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你想要去電影院看的電影。
11:59
So that's a lot
of dos and don'ts and maybes,
of dos and don'ts and maybes,
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所以，那是很多的「該做」
和「不該做」和「也許」，
和「不該做」和「也許」，
12:03
and it's not by any means
a definitive list.
a definitive list.
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這份清單並不是絕對的。
12:08
The thing to remember
is that they're all grounded
is that they're all grounded
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要記得的是，
它們都是基於一條指導原則。
12:10
in one guiding principle.
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12:13
It's what allowed the woman
in the Jeep Wrangler
in the Jeep Wrangler
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就是它，讓吉普車女子
12:17
to start me on the path to recovery
without even trying.
without even trying.
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不費吹灰之力就使我踏上復原之路。
12:21
She talked to me like I belonged
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她當時對我說話的方式，
讓我感受到真實的自己
被人重視與理解。
被人重視與理解。
12:25
and contributed exactly as I was
at that moment.
at that moment.
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12:31
If you talk to a depressed person
as if their life is just as valuable,
as if their life is just as valuable,
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如果你和憂鬱症的人說話時，
能把他們的人生視為
能把他們的人生視為
12:35
intense and beautiful as yours,
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和你的一樣有價值、熱情、美麗，
12:38
then there's no need
to build a bridge between you,
to build a bridge between you,
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那麼你們之間根本不需要刻意搭橋，
12:42
because you've closed the chasm.
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因為你已經消除隔閡了。
12:45
Focus on that instead of your words,
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專注在這一點上，而非你所說的話，
12:51
and it may be the most uplifting
conversation of their life.
conversation of their life.
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那就有可能是他們
人生中最振奮的一段談話。
人生中最振奮的一段談話。
12:56
What could that do
for somebody you care about?
for somebody you care about?
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這會對你所關心的人
產生什麼樣的影響？
產生什麼樣的影響？
13:00
What could it do for you?
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這能對你產生什麼樣的影響？
13:03
Thank you.
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謝謝。
13:04
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Bill Bernat - Mental health awareness advocateBill Bernat is a recovering addict living with bipolar condition who advocates for mental health awareness through speaking, comedy and storytelling.
Why you should listen
Bill Bernatleads storytelling workshops and fundraisers for nonprofit organizations including the National Alliance on Mental Illness. He has appeared on Comedy Central and The Moth Radio Hour. He has worked as a computer programmer at NASA and helped take LookSmart public as an engineering leader. He currently works as a content marketing director for Adaptiva.
Bill Bernat | Speaker | TED.com