TED Salon Zebra Technologies
Roy Bahat and Bryn Freedman: What is the meaning of work?
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Roy Bahat was worried. His company invests in new technology like AI to make businesses more efficient -- but, he wondered, what was AI doing to the people whose jobs might change, go away or become less fulfilling? The question sent him on a two-year research odyssey to discover what motivates people, and why we work. In this conversation with curator Bryn Freedman, he shares what he learned, including some surprising insights that will shape the conversation about the future of our jobs.
Roy Bahat - Venture capitalist
Roy Bahat invests in the future of work, with a focus on automation, data, robotics, media, productivity tools and more. Full bioBryn Freedman - Editorial director and curator, TED Institute
Bryn Freedman helps those who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way. Full bio
Roy Bahat invests in the future of work, with a focus on automation, data, robotics, media, productivity tools and more. Full bioBryn Freedman - Editorial director and curator, TED Institute
Bryn Freedman helps those who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Bryn Freedman: You're a guy whose company
funds these AI programs and invests.
funds these AI programs and invests.
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So why should we trust you
to not have a bias
to not have a bias
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and tell us something really useful
for the rest of us
for the rest of us
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about the future of work?
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Roy Bahat: Yes, I am.
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And when you wake up in the morning
and you read the newspaper
and you read the newspaper
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and it says, "The robots are coming,
they may take all our jobs,"
they may take all our jobs,"
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as a start-up investor
focused on the future of work,
focused on the future of work,
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our fund was the first one to say
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artificial intelligence
should be a focus for us.
should be a focus for us.
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So I woke up one morning
and read that and said,
and read that and said,
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"Oh, my gosh, they're talking about me.
That's me who's doing that."
That's me who's doing that."
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And then I thought: wait a minute.
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If things continue,
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then maybe not only will the start-ups
in which we invest struggle
in which we invest struggle
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because there won't be people to have jobs
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to pay for the things
that they make and buy them,
that they make and buy them,
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but our economy and society
might struggle, too.
might struggle, too.
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01:09
And look, I should be the guy
who sits here and tells you,
who sits here and tells you,
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"Everything is going to be fine.
It's all going to work out great.
It's all going to work out great.
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Hey, when they introduced the ATM machine,
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years later, there's more
tellers in banks."
tellers in banks."
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It's true.
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And yet, when I looked at it, I thought,
"This is going to accelerate.
"This is going to accelerate.
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And if it does accelerate,
there's a chance the center doesn't hold."
there's a chance the center doesn't hold."
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But I figured somebody must know
the answer to this;
the answer to this;
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there are so many ideas out there.
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And I read all the books,
and I went to the conferences,
and I went to the conferences,
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and at one point, we counted more than
100 efforts to study the future of work.
100 efforts to study the future of work.
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And it was a frustrating experience,
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because I'd hear the same back-and-forth
over and over again:
over and over again:
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"The robots are coming!"
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And then somebody else would say,
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"Oh, don't worry about that, they've
always said that and it turns out OK."
always said that and it turns out OK."
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Then somebody else would say,
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"Well, it's really about the meaning
of your job, anyway."
of your job, anyway."
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And then everybody would shrug
and go off and have a drink.
and go off and have a drink.
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And it felt like there was this
Kabuki theater of this discussion,
Kabuki theater of this discussion,
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where nobody was talking to each other.
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And many of the people that I knew
and worked with in the technology world
and worked with in the technology world
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were not speaking to policy makers;
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the policy makers
were not speaking to them.
were not speaking to them.
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And so we partnered with a nonpartisan
think tank NGO called New America
think tank NGO called New America
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to study this issue.
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And we brought together a group of people,
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including an AI czar
at a technology company
at a technology company
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and a video game designer
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and a heartland conservative
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and a Wall Street investor
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and a socialist magazine editor --
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literally, all in the same room;
it was occasionally awkward --
it was occasionally awkward --
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to try to figure out
what is it that will happen here.
what is it that will happen here.
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The question we asked was simple.
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It was: What is the effect of technology
on work going to be?
on work going to be?
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And we looked out 10 to 20 years,
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because we wanted to look out far enough
that there could be real change,
that there could be real change,
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but soon enough that we weren't talking
about teleportation or anything like that.
about teleportation or anything like that.
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And we recognized --
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and I think every year
we're reminded of this in the world --
we're reminded of this in the world --
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that predicting what's
going to happen is hard.
going to happen is hard.
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So instead of predicting,
there are other things you can do.
there are other things you can do.
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You can try to imagine
alternate possible futures,
alternate possible futures,
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which is what we did.
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We did a scenario-planning exercise,
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and we imagined cases
where no job is safe.
where no job is safe.
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We imagined cases where every job is safe.
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And we imagined every
distinct possibility we could.
distinct possibility we could.
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And the result, which really surprised us,
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was when you think through those futures
and you think what should we do,
and you think what should we do,
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the answers about what we should do
actually turn out to be the same,
actually turn out to be the same,
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no matter what happens.
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And the irony of looking out
10 to 20 years into the future is,
10 to 20 years into the future is,
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you realize that the things
we want to act on
we want to act on
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are actually already happening right now.
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The automation is right now,
the future is right now.
the future is right now.
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BF: So what does that mean,
and what does that tell us?
and what does that tell us?
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If the future is now, what is it
that we should be doing,
that we should be doing,
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and what should we be thinking about?
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RB: We have to understand
the problem first.
the problem first.
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And so the data are that as the economy
becomes more productive
becomes more productive
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and individual workers
become more productive,
become more productive,
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their wages haven't risen.
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If you look at the proportion
of prime working-age men,
of prime working-age men,
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in the United States at least,
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who work now versus in 1960,
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we have three times
as many men not working.
as many men not working.
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And then you hear the stories.
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I sat down with a group
of Walmart workers and said,
of Walmart workers and said,
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"What do you think about this cashier,
this futuristic self-checkout thing?"
this futuristic self-checkout thing?"
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They said, "That's nice, but have
you heard about the cash recycler?
you heard about the cash recycler?
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That's a machine that's being
installed right now,
installed right now,
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and is eliminating two jobs
at every Walmart right now."
at every Walmart right now."
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And so we just thought, "Geez. We don't
understand the problem."
understand the problem."
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And so we looked at the voices
that were the ones that were excluded,
that were the ones that were excluded,
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which is all of the people
affected by this change.
affected by this change.
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And we decided to listen to them,
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sort of "automation and its discontents."
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And I've spent the last
couple of years doing that.
couple of years doing that.
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I've been to Flint, Michigan,
and Youngstown, Ohio,
and Youngstown, Ohio,
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talking about entrepreneurs,
trying to make it work
trying to make it work
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in a very different environment
from New York or San Francisco
from New York or San Francisco
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or London or Tokyo.
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I've been to prisons twice
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to talk to inmates about
their jobs after they leave.
their jobs after they leave.
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I've sat down with truck drivers
to ask them about the self-driving truck,
to ask them about the self-driving truck,
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with people who, in addition
to their full-time job,
to their full-time job,
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care for an aging relative.
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And when you talk to people,
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there were two themes
that came out loud and clear.
that came out loud and clear.
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The first one was that people
are less looking for more money
are less looking for more money
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or get out of the fear
of the robot taking their job,
of the robot taking their job,
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and they just want something stable.
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They want something predictable.
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So if you survey people and ask them
what they want out of work,
what they want out of work,
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for everybody who makes
less than 150,000 dollars a year,
less than 150,000 dollars a year,
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they'll take a more stable
and secure income, on average,
and secure income, on average,
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over earning more money.
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And if you think about the fact that
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not only for all of the people
across the earth who don't earn a living,
across the earth who don't earn a living,
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but for those who do,
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the vast majority earn a different
amount from month to month
amount from month to month
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and have an instability,
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all of a sudden you realize,
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"Wait a minute. We have
a real problem on our hands."
a real problem on our hands."
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And the second thing they say,
which took us a longer time to understand,
which took us a longer time to understand,
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is they say they want dignity.
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And that concept
of self-worth through work
of self-worth through work
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emerged again and again and again
in our conversations.
in our conversations.
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BF: So, I certainly
appreciate this answer.
appreciate this answer.
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But you can't eat dignity,
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you can't clothe your children
with self-esteem.
with self-esteem.
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So, what is that, how do you reconcile --
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what does dignity mean,
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and what is the relationship
between dignity and stability?
between dignity and stability?
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RB: You can't eat dignity.
You need stability first.
You need stability first.
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And the good news is,
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many of the conversations
that are happening right now
that are happening right now
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are about how we solve that.
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You know, I'm a proponent
of studying guaranteed income,
of studying guaranteed income,
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as one example,
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conversations about how
health care gets provided
health care gets provided
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and other benefits.
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Those conversations are happening,
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and we're at a time
where we must figure that out.
where we must figure that out.
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It is the crisis of our era.
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And my point of view
after talking to people
after talking to people
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is that we may do that,
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and it still might not be enough.
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Because what we need to do
from the beginning is understand
from the beginning is understand
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what is it about work
that gives people dignity,
that gives people dignity,
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so they can live the lives
that they want to live.
that they want to live.
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And so that concept of dignity is ...
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it's difficult to get your hands around,
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because when many people hear it --
especially, to be honest, rich people --
especially, to be honest, rich people --
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they hear "meaning."
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They hear "My work is important to me."
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And again, if you survey people
and you ask them,
and you ask them,
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"How important is it to you
that your work be important to you?"
that your work be important to you?"
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only people who make
150,000 dollars a year or more
150,000 dollars a year or more
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say that it is important to them
that their work be important.
that their work be important.
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BF: Meaning, meaningful?
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RB: Just defined as,
"Is your work important to you?"
"Is your work important to you?"
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Whatever somebody took that to mean.
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And yet, of course dignity is essential.
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We talked to truck drivers who said,
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"I saw my cousin drive, and I got
on the open road and it was amazing.
on the open road and it was amazing.
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And I started making more money
than people who went to college."
than people who went to college."
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Then they'd get to the end
of their thought and say something like,
of their thought and say something like,
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"People need their fruits
and vegetables in the morning,
and vegetables in the morning,
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and I'm the guy who gets it to them."
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We talked to somebody who, in addition
to his job, was caring for his aunt.
to his job, was caring for his aunt.
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He was making plenty of money.
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At one point we just asked,
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"What is it about caring for your aunt?
Can't you just pay somebody to do it?"
Can't you just pay somebody to do it?"
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He said, "My aunt doesn't want
somebody we pay for.
somebody we pay for.
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My aunt wants me."
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So there was this concept there
of being needed.
of being needed.
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If you study the word
"dignity," it's fascinating.
"dignity," it's fascinating.
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It's one of the oldest words
in the English language, from antiquity.
in the English language, from antiquity.
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And it has two meanings:
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one is self-worth,
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and the other is that something
is suitable, it's fitting,
is suitable, it's fitting,
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meaning that you're part
of something greater than yourself,
of something greater than yourself,
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and it connects to some broader whole.
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In other words, that you're needed.
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BF: So how do you answer this question,
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this concept that we don't pay teachers,
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and we don't pay eldercare workers,
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and we don't pay people
who really care for people
who really care for people
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and are needed, enough?
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RB: Well, the good news is,
people are finally asking the question.
people are finally asking the question.
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So as AI investors,
we often get phone calls
we often get phone calls
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from foundations or CEOs
and boardrooms saying,
and boardrooms saying,
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"What do we do about this?"
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And they used to be asking,
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"What do we do about
introducing automation?"
introducing automation?"
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And now they're asking,
"What do we do about self-worth?"
"What do we do about self-worth?"
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And they know that the employees
who work for them
who work for them
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who have a spouse who cares for somebody,
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that dignity is essential
to their ability to just do their job.
to their ability to just do their job.
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I think there's two kinds of answers:
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there's the money side
of just making your life work.
of just making your life work.
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That's stability. You need to eat.
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And then you think about
our culture more broadly,
our culture more broadly,
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and you ask: Who do we make into heroes?
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And, you know, what I want
is to see the magazine cover
is to see the magazine cover
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that is the person
who is the heroic caregiver.
who is the heroic caregiver.
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Or the Netflix series
that dramatizes the person
that dramatizes the person
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who makes all of our other lives work
so we can do the things we do.
so we can do the things we do.
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Let's make heroes out of those people.
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That's the Netflix show
that I would binge.
that I would binge.
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And we've had chroniclers
of this before --
of this before --
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Studs Terkel,
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the oral history of the working
experience in the United States.
experience in the United States.
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And what we need is the experience
of needing one another
of needing one another
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and being connected to each other.
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Maybe that's the answer
for how we all fit as a society.
for how we all fit as a society.
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And the thought exercise, to me, is:
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if you were to go back 100 years
and have people --
and have people --
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my grandparents, great-grandparents,
a tailor, worked in a mine --
a tailor, worked in a mine --
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they look at what all of us do
for a living and say, "That's not work."
for a living and say, "That's not work."
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We sit there and type and talk,
and there's no danger of getting hurt.
and there's no danger of getting hurt.
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And my guess is that if you were
to imagine 100 years from now,
to imagine 100 years from now,
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we'll still be doing things
for each other.
for each other.
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We'll still need one another.
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And we just will think of it as work.
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The entire thing I'm trying to say
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is that dignity should not
just be about having a job.
just be about having a job.
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Because if you say
you need a job to have dignity,
you need a job to have dignity,
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which many people say,
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the second you say that,
you say to all the parents
you say to all the parents
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and all the teachers
and all the caregivers
and all the caregivers
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that all of a sudden,
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because they're not being paid
for what they're doing,
for what they're doing,
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it somehow lacks this
essential human quality.
essential human quality.
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To me, that's the great
puzzle of our time:
puzzle of our time:
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Can we figure out how to provide
that stability throughout life,
that stability throughout life,
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and then can we figure out
how to create an inclusive,
how to create an inclusive,
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not just racially, gender,
but multigenerationally inclusive --
but multigenerationally inclusive --
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I mean, every different
human experience included --
human experience included --
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in this way of understanding
how we can be needed by one another.
how we can be needed by one another.
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BF: Thank you.
RB: Thank you.
RB: Thank you.
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BF: Thank you very much
for your participation.
for your participation.
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(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Roy Bahat - Venture capitalistRoy Bahat invests in the future of work, with a focus on automation, data, robotics, media, productivity tools and more.
Why you should listen
Roy Bahat invests in the future of work as a venture capitalist, with a focus on machine intelligence. Prior to his life as a VC, Bahat founded start-ups, served as a corporate executive at News Corp. and worked in government in the office of New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg.
As the head of Bloomberg Beta, an investment firm with 150 million dollars under management, Bahat and his team have invested in areas like automation, data, robotics, media, productivity tools and many others.
Fast Company named Bahat one of the Most Creative People in Business and noted "Bahat is a natural innovator ... one of the most candid people you'll ever meet (check out his LinkedIn profile)." He organized "Comeback Cities," where he leads groups of venture capitalists and members of Congress on bus tours to find the untapped beds of talent and entrepreneurship in America. He also co-chaired the Shift Commission on Work, Workers, and Technology, a partnership between Bloomberg and think-tank New America to look at automation and the future of work 10 to 20 years from now.
Bahat is on the faculty at U.C. Berkeley, where he teaches about media at the Haas School of Business. He serves on the board of the Center for Investigative Reporting, a nonprofit newsroom, and is on the steering committee of the Economic Security Project. A graduate of Harvard College, where he ran the student public service nonprofit, Bahat was also a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford University. He lives in San Francisco with his wife and two kids.
Roy Bahat | Speaker | TED.com
Bryn Freedman - Editorial director and curator, TED Institute
Bryn Freedman helps those who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way.
Why you should listen
Award-winning TV producer, investigative journalist and author, Bryn Freedman joined TED in 2014 as the editorial director and curator for the TED Institute. In her work with TED, Freedman creates and executes TED conference events for Fortune 500 companies, overseeing all editorial content as well as managing speaker coaches and determining both the topics for each talk and the overall conference theme. In addition to curating these events, she works as an executive speaker coach for professionals who want to give the "talk of their lives" in a clear, passionate and authentic way.
Freedman is also co-founder of Voices4Freedom, an international organization aimed at eradicating slavery through education and media.
Bryn Freedman | Speaker | TED.com