TEDWomen 2017
Deb Willis and Hank Willis Thomas: A mother and son united by love and art
Deborah Wills, Hank Wills Thomas: 被爱和艺术联合在一起的一对母子
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一个艺术学校的教授曾经告诉Deborah Wills她，作为一名女性，是在占一个优秀男人的位置，但是这位传奇的摄影师反而说她要为一个优秀的男人创造一个位置--她的儿子Hank Wills Thomas。在这个感人的谈话中，这对母子艺术家讲述了他们是如何在工作中互相借鉴，他们的作品是如何挑战关于黑人生活和黑人快乐的主流说法，以及最终所有事物归根结底到爱的。
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Hank Willis Thomas: I'm Deb's son.
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Hank Willis Thomas: 我是Deb的儿子
00:14
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
00:16
Deborah Willis: And I'm Hank's mom.
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Deborah Willis: 我是Hank的妈妈
00:18
HWT: We've said that so many times,
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Thomas：我们曾说过那么多次，
00:20
we've made a piece about it.
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我们已经达成了共识
00:22
It's called "Sometimes
I See Myself In You,"
I See Myself In You,"
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叫做“有时候我在你身上看到我自己”。
00:25
and it speaks to
the symbiotic relationship
the symbiotic relationship
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这叫做“共生关系”，
00:27
that we've developed over the years
through our life and work.
through our life and work.
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我们通过生活和工作培养了多年，
00:30
And really, it's because everywhere we go,
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真的，因为不管我们去哪里，
00:33
together or apart,
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一起或者各自去，
00:35
we carry these monikers.
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总会得到这样的绰号。
00:37
I've been following
in my mother's footsteps
in my mother's footsteps
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自从我出生开始，
00:39
since before I was even born
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我就一直追随着我母亲的脚步，
00:40
and haven't figured out how to stop.
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并且还不知道怎么停下来，
00:43
And as I get older, it does get harder.
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随着年龄的增长变得越来越难。
00:46
No seriously, it gets harder.
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不那么严谨的说，越来越难。
00:48
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
00:50
My mother's taught me many things, though,
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我的妈妈也教会了我很多事情，
00:52
most of all that love overrules.
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大多都是超越了爱的范畴。
00:55
She's taught me that love
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她告诉我，
00:57
is an action,
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爱是行动，
01:00
not a feeling.
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不是感觉。
01:01
Love is a way of being,
it's a way of doing,
it's a way of doing,
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爱是去成为，去行动，
01:05
it's a way of listening
and it's a way of seeing.
and it's a way of seeing.
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爱是聆听，是观看，
01:09
DW: And also, the idea about love,
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Deborah：同样，关于爱的观点，
01:11
photographers,
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对于摄影师来说，
01:14
they're looking for love
when they make photographs.
when they make photographs.
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当他们拍摄时，他们就是在寻找爱。
01:17
They're looking and looking
and finding love.
and finding love.
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他们找啊找，找到爱。
01:19
Growing up in North Philadelphia,
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我在北费城长大，
01:21
I was surrounded by people
in my family and friends
in my family and friends
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身边都是家人和朋友，
01:25
who made photographs
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他们都使用家庭相机拍照片，
01:26
and used the family camera
as a way of telling a story about life,
as a way of telling a story about life,
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去讲述人生故事，
去讲述人生乐趣，
01:30
about life of joy,
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去讲述成为北费城的一个家庭意味着什么。
01:32
about what it meant
to become a family in North Philadelphia.
to become a family in North Philadelphia.
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所以我花了人生的大多数时间找寻照片，
01:37
So I spent most of my life
searching for pictures
searching for pictures
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能反映黑人的爱和黑人的快乐的照片，
01:40
that reflect on ideas
about black love, black joy
about black love, black joy
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01:43
and about family life.
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和关于家庭生活的照片。
所以，对我来说，把爱至高无上
看做动词是非常重要的
看做动词是非常重要的
01:45
So it's really important to think about
the action of love overrules as a verb.
the action of love overrules as a verb.
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01:52
HWT: Sometimes I wonder
if the love of looking is genetic,
if the love of looking is genetic,
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Thomas：有时候我想知道这种寻找爱的能力
是否是基因决定的，
是否是基因决定的，
01:56
because, like my mother,
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因为，像我妈妈一样，
从我记事起我就爱上了摄影，
01:58
I've loved photographs
since before I can even remember.
since before I can even remember.
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有时候我都会想，除了我的妈妈和她（Deb）的妈妈，
02:02
I think sometimes that --
after my mother and her mother --
after my mother and her mother --
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02:06
that photography and photographs
were my first love.
were my first love.
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我最爱的就是摄影和照片了。
无意冒犯我的父亲，
02:09
No offense to my father,
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但那就是为什么你会叫我“火腿”了，
02:11
but that's what you get
for calling me a "ham"
for calling me a "ham"
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02:14
wherever you go.
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不管你去哪里。
我记得不管什么时候去奶奶家，
02:15
I remember whenever I'd go
to my grandmother's house,
to my grandmother's house,
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她都会把所有的相簿都藏起来，
02:18
she would hide all the photo albums
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因为她怕我问她，
02:19
because she was afraid of me asking,
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02:22
"Well, who is that in that picture?"
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“嗯...那照片里的是谁？”
02:23
and "Who are they to you
and who are they to me,
and who are they to me,
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“他们是你的谁，是我的谁？”
02:26
and how old were you
when that picture was taken?
when that picture was taken?
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“拍那照片时候你多大？”
02:28
How old was I when that picture was taken?
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“拍那照片时候我多大？”
02:30
And why were they in black and white?
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“它们为什么是黑白的呢？”
02:32
Was the world in black and white
before I was born?"
before I was born?"
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“我出生的时候世界也是黑白的么？”
02:34
DW: Well, that's interesting,
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Deborah：嗯，真挺有趣的
02:36
just to think about the world
in black and white.
in black and white.
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光是想到“黑白世界”就觉得很有趣。
02:38
I grew up in a beauty shop
in North Philadelphia,
in North Philadelphia,
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我在北费城的一家美容店长大，
02:41
my mom's beauty shop,
looking at "Ebony Magazine,"
looking at "Ebony Magazine,"
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那是我妈妈的美容店，我在看“Ebony 杂志”的时候，
02:43
found images that told stories
that were often not in the daily news,
that were often not in the daily news,
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就发现图片讲出来的故事并不经常出现在每日新闻里，
02:48
but in the family album.
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而是出现在家庭相簿里。
02:50
I wanted the family album
to be energetic for me,
to be energetic for me,
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我希望家庭相簿是让我积极向上，
02:53
a way of telling stories,
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成为讲故事的一种方式。
有一天我在费城公共图书馆偶然看到一本书，
02:54
and one day I happened upon a book
in the Philadelphia Public Library
in the Philadelphia Public Library
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书名叫“轻舞飞扬”，作者是
Roy DeCarava和 Langston Hughes
Roy DeCarava和 Langston Hughes
02:58
called "The Sweet Flypaper of Life"
by Roy DeCarava and Langston Hughes.
by Roy DeCarava and Langston Hughes.
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03:03
I think what attracted me
as a seven-year-old,
as a seven-year-old,
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我觉得吸引7岁的我的是--
03:05
the title, flypaper and sweet,
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标题、“捕蝇纸”、“糖果”，
但作为一个7岁的小女孩去思考的话，
03:08
but to think about that
as a seven-year-old,
as a seven-year-old,
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03:10
I looked at the beautiful images
that Roy DeCarava made
that Roy DeCarava made
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我看着Roy DeCarava拍出来的漂亮的图片，
又想想我能讲述人生故事的方式。
03:13
and then looked at ways
that I could tell a story about life.
that I could tell a story about life.
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03:17
And looking for me is the act
that basically changed my life.
that basically changed my life.
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寻找自我的行动彻底改变了我的生活。
03:21
HWT: My friend Chris Johnson
told me that every photographer,
told me that every photographer,
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Thomas：我一个朋友 Chris Johnson 告诉我，
03:25
every artist, is essentially
trying to answer one question,
trying to answer one question,
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每位摄影师，每位艺术家，
基本都在尝试着去回答一个问题，
基本都在尝试着去回答一个问题，
03:29
and I think your question might have been,
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我认为你的问题可能是：
03:32
"Why doesn't the rest of the world
see how beautiful we are,
see how beautiful we are,
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“为什么世界上的其他人看不到
我们所看到的世界有这么美？
我们所看到的世界有这么美？
03:35
and what can I do to help them
see our community the way I do?"
see our community the way I do?"
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我怎么帮助他们
让他们像我们一样看待这个世界？”
让他们像我们一样看待这个世界？”
03:39
DW: While studying in art school --
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Deborah：我在艺术学校学习的时候，
03:41
it's probably true --
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那可能是对的，
一个男教授告诉我说我占去了一个优秀男人的位置，
03:42
I had a male professor who told me
that I was taking up a good man's space.
that I was taking up a good man's space.
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03:47
He tried to stifle my dream
of becoming a photographer.
of becoming a photographer.
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他试图扼杀我想成为一名摄影师的梦想，
03:50
He attempted to shame me
in a class full of male photographers.
in a class full of male photographers.
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他试图让我在一个全是男摄影师的班级里感到羞愧。
他告诉我，作为一名女性像我这样是不恰当的，
03:54
He told me I was out of place
and out of order as a woman,
and out of order as a woman,
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03:58
and he went on to say
that all you could and would do
that all you could and would do
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然后他接着说，所有你可以做的和将要做的，
04:01
was to have a baby when a good man
could have had your seat in this class.
could have had your seat in this class.
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就是去结婚生子，让一个优秀的男人坐在这里，
04:05
I was shocked into silence
into that experience.
into that experience.
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我记得那次我很震惊，没有说一句话。
但是我有相机，并且我决定向他证明，
04:09
But I had my camera,
and I was determined to prove to him
and I was determined to prove to him
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04:12
that I was worthy
for a seat in that class.
for a seat in that class.
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我是值得坐在这里的。
04:14
But in retrospect, I asked myself:
"Why did I need to prove it to him?"
"Why did I need to prove it to him?"
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但是回想起来，我问了问自己“为什么我要证明给他看呢”
04:18
You know, I had my camera,
and I knew I needed to prove to myself
and I knew I needed to prove to myself
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你知道的，我有相机，我知道我需要向自己证明，
04:21
that I would make
a difference in photography.
a difference in photography.
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我会在摄影界产生影响。
04:23
I love photography, and no one
is going to stop me from making images.
is going to stop me from making images.
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我爱摄影，没人能阻拦我拍照片。
04:27
HWT: But that's when I came in.
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Thomas：但是当我到来的时候...
04:29
DW: Yeah, that year I graduated,
I got pregnant.
I got pregnant.
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Deborah：对，我毕业那年怀孕了。
04:32
Yep, he was right.
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对，他说对了，
04:34
And I had you,
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然后我就有了你，
我摆脱了他用来攻击我的性别歧视主义语言，
04:35
and I shook off that sexist language
that he used against me
that he used against me
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04:40
and picked up my camera
and made photographs daily,
and made photographs daily,
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捡起我的相机，每天都去拍照，
04:43
and made photographs of my pregnant belly
as I prepared for graduate school.
as I prepared for graduate school.
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在我准备考研究生的时候给我怀孕的肚子拍照
04:48
But I thought about also
that black photographers were missing
that black photographers were missing
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但我也想到黑人摄影师
正在从摄影史册上消失，
04:52
from the history books of photography,
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04:55
and I was looking
for ways to tell a story.
for ways to tell a story.
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我那时在寻找讲故事的方式，
我偶然看到Gordon Park的书《武器的选择》，
04:58
And I ran across Gordon Parks' book
"A Choice of Weapons,"
"A Choice of Weapons,"
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05:03
which was his autobiography.
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那是他的自传。
05:04
I began photographing and making images,
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然后我就开始摄影，拍照，
05:07
and I tucked away that contact sheet
that I made of my pregnant belly,
that I made of my pregnant belly,
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我把我怀孕肚子的相片集藏起来。
05:11
and then you inspired me
to create a new piece,
to create a new piece,
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然后你启发了我再去创造一个新的，
05:14
a piece that said, "A woman
taking a place from a good man,"
taking a place from a good man,"
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名字叫“一个女人占了一个优秀男人的地方”，
05:18
"You took the space from a good man,"
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“你占了一个男人的位置”。
05:20
and then I used that language
and reversed it and said,
and reversed it and said,
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然后我用了那句子，但是把它颠倒过来了，
05:24
"I made a space for a good man, you."
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“我给一个优秀男人，你，创造了一个位置”
05:26
(Applause)
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（掌声）
05:28
HWT: Thanks, ma.
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Thomas：谢谢，妈
05:33
Like mother, like son.
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我和我妈一样，
05:35
I grew up in a house full of photographs.
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我也是在一栋满是照片的房子里长大，
05:38
They were everywhere, and my mother
would turn the kitchen into a darkroom.
would turn the kitchen into a darkroom.
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到处都是照片。我妈把厨房变成了一个暗室，
05:42
And there weren't
just pictures that she took
just pictures that she took
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那里不仅仅是她拍的照片，
05:45
and pictures of family members.
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还有家人们的照片。
05:46
But there were pictures on the wall
of and by people that we didn't know,
of and by people that we didn't know,
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但是墙上的照片还有我不认识的人，
05:51
men and women that we didn't know.
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我不认识的男人和女人，
05:53
Thanks, ma.
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谢谢你了，妈妈
05:54
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
05:55
I have my own timing.
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我有我自己的时间
05:56
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
05:58
Did you see her poke me?
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看见没，她戳我
05:59
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
06:01
Puppet strings.
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“木偶线”
06:06
I grew up in a house full of photographs.
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我在一个满是照片的屋子里长大。
06:08
(Applause)
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（掌声）
并不只有我认识的人的照片
06:11
But they weren't just pictures
of men and women that we knew,
of men and women that we knew,
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还有我不认识的人的照片。
06:14
but pictures of people that I didn't know,
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很不一样，这和我在学校学到的很不一样，
06:17
Pretty much, it was pretty clear
from what I learned in school,
from what I learned in school,
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和这世界的其他东西也都不一样。
06:20
that the rest of the world didn't either.
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06:23
And it took me a long time
to figure out what she was up to,
to figure out what she was up to,
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我花了很长时间去弄明白她在做什么，
但不久后，我弄明白了。
06:26
but after a while, I figured it out.
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06:30
When I was nine years old,
she published this book,
she published this book,
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那是我九岁的时候，她出版了这本书，
06:32
"Black Photographers, 1840-1940:
A Bio-Bibliography."
A Bio-Bibliography."
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“黑人摄影师，1840-1940：人物目录”
06:36
And it's astounding to me to consider
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我很震惊的是，
06:39
that in 1840, African Americans
were making photographs.
were making photographs.
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1840年有非裔美人在摄影。
06:43
What does it mean for us to think
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这对我们来说意味着什么，
06:44
that at a time that was two, three decades
before the end of slavery,
before the end of slavery,
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在二，三十年前，在奴隶制接近尾声的时候，
06:49
that people were learning how to read,
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在人们都在学习如何阅读的时候，
在他们必须学习数学的时候，
06:52
they had to learn how to do math,
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在他们必须处在科技最前沿的时候，
06:54
they had to be on the cutting edge
of science and technology,
of science and technology,
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06:57
to do math, physics and chemistry
just to make a single photograph.
just to make a single photograph.
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仅仅是为了去拍摄一张照片，必须学习数学，物理和化学
07:02
And what compelled them
to do that if not love?
to do that if not love?
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如果不是爱的话，那还有什么能迫使他们这样做呢？
07:05
Well, that book led her to her next book,
"Black Photographers, 1940-1988,"
"Black Photographers, 1940-1988,"
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那本书促使了她下一本书的出生--“黑人摄影师，1940-1988”
07:10
and that book led to another book,
and another book, and another book,
and another book, and another book,
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从而又促使了再下一本的出生，
07:15
and another book, and another book,
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再下一本，
07:17
and another book, and another book,
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再下一本，
07:19
and another book, and another book,
and another book, and another book,
and another book, and another book,
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再下一本，再下一本，
07:22
and another book, and another book,
and another book, and another book,
and another book, and another book,
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再下一本，再下一本，
07:25
and another book,
and another book, and another.
and another book, and another.
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再下一本，再下一本。
07:28
(Applause)
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（掌声）
07:29
And throughout my life,
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在我的一生中，
07:31
she's edited and published dozens of books
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她编辑并出版了许多本书，
07:34
and curated numerous exhibitions
on every continent,
on every continent,
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也在各大洲担任了了各种展览的馆长，
07:39
not all about black photographers
but all inspired by the curiosity
but all inspired by the curiosity
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不全是有关黑人摄影师的，
07:42
of a little black girl
from North Philadelphia.
from North Philadelphia.
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但是都源发于一个来自北费城的一个黑人小女孩的好奇心。
07:45
DW: What I found is that
black photographers had stories to tell,
black photographers had stories to tell,
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Deborah：我发现黑人摄影师有故事要说，
07:48
and we needed to listen.
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并且我们需要去聆听。
07:51
And then I found and I discovered
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后来我找到了并且发现了
07:52
black photographers
like Augustus Washington,
like Augustus Washington,
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像Augustus Washington这样的黑人摄影师，
07:55
who made these beautiful daguerreotypes
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在19世纪40年代早期和50年代，
07:57
of the McGill family
in the early 1840s and '50s.
in the early 1840s and '50s.
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他用银版摄影法为McGill家族拍摄了这些美丽的照片。
08:02
Their stories tended to be different,
black photographers,
black photographers,
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黑人摄影师的故事都是不一样的，
08:04
and they had a different narrative
about black life during slavery,
about black life during slavery,
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他们讲述了奴隶时期黑人的不同故事，
08:08
but it was also about family life, beauty
and telling stories about community.
and telling stories about community.
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但是都是有关家庭生活，美，以及讲述社区的故事。
08:13
I didn't know how to link the stories,
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我不知道怎么把这些故事联系起来，
08:16
but I knew that teachers
needed to know this story.
needed to know this story.
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但是我知道，老师们需要知道这个故事。
08:19
HWT: So I think I was
my mother's first student.
my mother's first student.
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Thomas：所以我认为我是我妈妈的第一个学生，
08:24
Unwillingly and unwittingly --
puppet strings --
puppet strings --
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不情愿的，不知不觉的--“木偶线”
08:27
I decided to pick up a camera,
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我决定拿起一部相机，
08:30
and thought that I
should make my own pictures
should make my own pictures
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我认为我应该拍出自己的照片，
08:32
about the then and now
and the now and then.
and the now and then.
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有关以后和现在，有关现在和以后。
08:35
I thought about
how I could use photography
how I could use photography
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我考虑了应该如何运用摄影
08:38
to talk about how what's going on
outside of the frame of the camera
outside of the frame of the camera
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去讲述相机的画面之外发生的事情
08:41
can affect what we see inside.
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是怎么影响我们能看到的照片里的画面的。
08:44
The truth is always in the hands
of the actual image maker
of the actual image maker
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事实总是掌握在实物拍摄者的手里的，
08:47
and it's up to us to really consider
what's being cut out.
what's being cut out.
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到底把什么排除在外也是也是由我们决定的。
08:50
I thought I could use her research
as a jumping-off point
as a jumping-off point
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我感觉我可以用她的调查结果作为一个出发点，
08:53
of things that I was seeing in society
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那些我看到的关于这个社会的事情。
08:55
and I wanted to start to think
about how I could use historical images
about how I could use historical images
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我想开始思考如何用历史图片
08:58
to talk about the past being present
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来讲述现在中的过去
09:01
and think about ways that we can speak
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也开始思考用什么方式
09:03
to the perennial struggle
for human rights and equal rights
for human rights and equal rights
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来描述长久不懈地争取人权和平等权利
作的斗争
作的斗争
09:07
through my appropriation of photographs
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通过运用照片
09:11
in the form of sculpture, video,
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来表现雕塑，视频，
09:14
installation and paintings.
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造型和画。
09:15
But through it all,
one piece has affected me the most.
one piece has affected me the most.
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但是在这其中，有一种对我影响最大，
09:20
It continues to nourish me.
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它仍然在滋养我，
09:21
It's based off of this photograph
by Ernest Withers,
by Ernest Withers,
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这是基于Ernest Withers的这张照片，
09:24
who took this picture in 1968
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拍摄于1968年，
09:26
at the Memphis Sanitation Workers March
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那是三月的孟菲斯环卫工人，
09:29
of men and women standing collectively
to affirm their humanity.
to affirm their humanity.
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男人和女人们站在一起去维护人权。
09:33
They were holding signs
that said "I am a man,"
that said "I am a man,"
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他们拿着上面写着“我是一个人”的牌子，
09:36
and I found that astounding,
because the phrase I grew up with
because the phrase I grew up with
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我很震惊，因为我从小到大知道的句子不是“我是一个人”
09:39
wasn't "I am a man,"
it was "I am the man,"
it was "I am the man,"
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而是“我是那个人”，
09:42
and I was amazed at how it went from this
collective statement during segregation
collective statement during segregation
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并且我很惊讶的是它是如何从种族隔离时期的
集体声明中分离出来
集体声明中分离出来
在整合后达到这种看似自私的声明的。
09:46
to this seemingly selfish statement
after integration.
after integration.
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我想要仔细考虑一下，
09:50
And I wanted to ponder that,
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所以我决定去以我能想到的所有方式重新合成那个主题，
09:52
so I decided to remix that text
in as many ways as I could think of,
in as many ways as I could think of,
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09:55
and I like to think of the top line
as a timeline of American history,
as a timeline of American history,
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我想把第一行以美国历史的时间轴开始，
10:00
and the last line as a poem,
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最后一行以一首诗作为结束，
10:03
and it says,
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写着，
10:04
"I am the man. Who's the man.
You the man. What a man.
You the man. What a man.
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“我是那个人，谁是那个人，你是那个人，什么是人，
10:07
I am man. I am many. I am, am I.
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我是人，我是许多人，我是，是我，
10:10
I am, I am. I am, Amen.
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我是，我是，我是，阿门。”
10:12
DW: Wow, so fascinating.
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Deborah：哇，太棒了。
10:14
(Applause)
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（掌声）
10:16
But what we learn from this experience
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但是我们从这次尝试中学到的
10:18
is the most powerful two words
in the English language is, "I am."
in the English language is, "I am."
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是英语中最有力的那两个字：“我是！”。
10:21
And we each have the capacity to love.
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我们每个人都有能力去爱。
10:24
Thank you.
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谢谢！
10:25
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Deborah Willis - Curator, photographerDeborah Willis is a photographer and writer in search of beauty.
Why you should listen
As an author and curator, Deborah Willis's pioneering research has focused on cultural histories envisioning the black body, women and gender. She is a celebrated photographer, acclaimed historian of photography, MacArthur and Guggenheim Fellow, and University Professor and Chair of the Department of Photography & Imaging at the Tisch School of the Arts at New York University.
Willis received the NAACP Image Award in 2014 for her co-authored book Envisioning Emancipation: Black Americans and the End of Slavery (with Barbara Krauthamer) and in 2015 for the documentary Through a Lens Darkly, inspired by her book Reflections in Black: A History of Black Photographers 1840 to the Present.
Deborah Willis | Speaker | TED.com
Hank Willis Thomas - Artist
Hank Willis Thomas is a conceptual artist working primarily with themes related to identity, history and popular culture.
Why you should listen
Hank Willis Thomas's work has been exhibited throughout the U.S. and abroad including, the International Center of Photography, Guggenheim Museum Bilbao, Musée du quai Branly, and the Cleveland Museum of Art. His work is in numerous public collections including the Museum of Modern Art New York, the Solomon R. Guggenheim Museum, the Whitney Museum of American Art, the Brooklyn Museum, the High Museum of Art and the National Gallery of Art in Washington DC, among others.
Thomas's collaborative projects include Question Bridge: Black Males, In Search Of The Truth (The Truth Booth), and For Freedoms. For Freedoms was recently awarded the 2017 ICP Infinity Award for New Media and Online Platform. Thomas is also the recipient of the 2017 Soros Equality Fellowship and the 2017 AIMIA | AGO Photography Prize. Current exhibitions include Prospect 4: The Lotus in Spite of the Swamp in New Orleans and All Things Being Equal at Zeitz Museum of Contemporary Art Africa. In 2017, Thomas also unveiled his permanent public artwork "Love Over Rules" in San Francisco and "All Power to All People" in Opa Locka, Florida. Thomas is a member of the Public Design Commission for the City of New York. He received a BFA in Photography and Africana studies from New York University and an MFA/MA in Photography and Visual Criticism from the California College of Arts. He has also received honorary doctorates from the Maryland Institute of Art and the Institute for Doctoral Studies in the Visual Arts. He lives and works in New York City.
Hank Willis Thomas | Speaker | TED.com