TEDGlobal 2011
Pavan Sukhdev: Put a value on nature!
Pavan Sukhdev：重視大自然
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每天，我們毫不思索的從大自然拿取原料，還是免費的拿。但要是我們得付出相對應其實際價值的金額：我們在使用和消耗時會更加小心嗎？可以把Pavan Sukhdev想成是大自然的銀行家，評估大自然資產的價值，令人大開眼界的圖表會讓你對空氣、水、樹木的價值有新的想法。
Pavan Sukhdev - Environmental economist
A banker by training, Pavan Sukhdev runs the numbers on greening up -- showing that green economies are an effective engine for creating jobs and creating wealth. Full bio
A banker by training, Pavan Sukhdev runs the numbers on greening up -- showing that green economies are an effective engine for creating jobs and creating wealth. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
I'm here to talk to you
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我在這想要告訴大家
00:17
about the economic invisibility of nature.
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關於大自然隱藏的經濟
00:19
The bad news
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壞消息是
00:21
is that mother nature's back office isn't working yet,
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大地之母的會計部門還沒開始運作
00:23
so those invoices don't get issued.
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所以這些帳單沒有辦法被開出來。
00:25
But we need to do something about this problem.
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不過我們還是要為了這個問題做些事情
00:28
I began my life as a markets professional
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我一開始是從事市場領域
00:31
and continued to take an interest,
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之後持續對此抱持著興趣
00:34
but most of my recent effort
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但是我近期的努力
00:36
has been looking at the value
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都是專注在
00:38
of what comes to human beings from nature,
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人類從大自然取得資產的價值
00:40
and which doesn't get priced by the markets.
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那些在市場上還沒有標價的部分
00:43
A project called TEEB was started in 2007,
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在2007年我們開始一個叫做TEEB的計劃
00:46
and it was launched by a group of environment ministers
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是由一群G8+5的環境部長們 (編者註:G8+5指的是原來的八大工業國 : 加拿大,法國,德國,義大利,日本,俄國,美國與英國 再加上五個新興國 : 巴西,中國,印度,墨西哥與南非)
00:49
of the G8+5.
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所發起
00:51
And their basic inspiration
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他們初步的靈感
00:53
was a stern review of Lord Stern.
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是來自氣候變化經濟學家斯特恩爵士所提出的報告
00:55
They asked themselves a question:
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他們問自己一個問題：
00:57
If economics could make such a convincing case
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如果經濟學可以提出這麼有說服力的理論
00:59
for early action on climate change,
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讓大家對氣候變遷及早行動,
01:01
well why can't the same be done for conservation?
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為什麼這不能也用在保育上？
01:03
Why can't an equivalent case be made
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為什麼相同的例子不能也用在
01:05
for nature?
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大自然上
01:07
And the answer is: Yeah, it can.
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而這個答案是：是的，是可以的
01:09
But it's not that straightforward.
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但是不是那麼的直接了當
01:11
Biodiversity, the living fabric of this planet, is not a gas.
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生物多樣性，這個星球上的各種組成不是汽油
01:14
It exists in many layers,
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這出現在多種層次裡
01:16
ecosystems, species and genes across many scales --
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生態系統、物種和基因，跨越了很多等級
01:19
international, national, local, community --
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國際性的、國家級的、當地的、社群的
01:22
and doing for nature
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對大自然做
01:24
what Lord Stern and his team did for nature is not that easy.
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像斯特恩爵士及他的團隊當初為了大自然做的那些,並不簡單
01:27
And yet, we began.
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儘管如此，我們還是開始了
01:29
We began the project with an interim report,
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這份計畫是先從臨時報告開始
01:31
which quickly pulled together
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很快地，許多研究人員
01:33
a lot of information that had been collected on the subject
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把很多關於這個主題的資訊
01:36
by many, many researchers.
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都收集在一起
01:38
And amongst our compiled results
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在這份整合的報告中
01:40
was the startling revelation
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有個非常驚人的啟示
01:42
that, in fact, we were losing natural capital --
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那就是,事實上,我們正在失去自然資本
01:45
the benefits that flow from nature to us.
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那些從大自然流向我們的利益。
01:47
We were losing it at an extraordinary rate --
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我們正已非常驚人的速度失去
01:49
in fact, of the order of two to four trillion dollars-worth
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事實上，是價值兩到四萬億美元的
01:52
of natural capital.
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天然資本
01:55
This came out in 2008,
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這份報告在2008年寫成
01:57
which was, of course, around the time that the banking crisis had shown
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剛好是在財務危機報告顯示
01:59
that we had lost financial capital
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我們已經失去財務資本的時候
02:01
of the order of two and a half trillion dollars.
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兩點五萬億美元財物資本的時候
02:03
So this was comparable in size to that kind of loss.
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所以這是可以相對比較的損失。
02:06
We then have gone on since
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我們便開始四處演講
02:08
to present for [the] international community,
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向國際社群
02:11
for governments,
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各國政府
02:13
for local governments and for business
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地方政府和企業體
02:15
and for people, for you and me,
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向群眾,向你和我,
02:17
a whole slew of reports, which were presented at the U.N. last year,
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做了完整報告，去年也在聯合國發表
02:20
which address the economic invisibility of nature
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裡頭說明了自然的隱藏經濟
02:23
and describe what can be done to solve it.
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也說明了怎麼樣做可以解決這個問題
02:25
What is this about?
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這是關於什麼的呢?
02:27
A picture that you're familiar with --
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這是一張你們很熟悉的圖片
02:29
the Amazon rainforests.
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亞馬遜雨林
02:31
It's a massive store of carbon, it's an amazing store of biodiversity,
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這是一個巨大的碳倉儲，也是一個驚人的生物多樣性的倉儲，
02:34
but what people don't really know
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但人們不知道的
02:36
is this also is a rain factory.
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是它其實也是一個降雨工廠
02:38
Because the northeastern trade winds,
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因為東北季風
02:40
as they go over the Amazonas,
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吹送過亞馬遜時
02:42
effectively gather the water vapor.
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會有效的收集水蒸氣
02:44
Something like 20 billion tons per day of water vapor
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每天大約20億多噸的水蒸氣
02:47
is sucked up by the northeastern trade winds,
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都被吸到這東北季風裡，
02:50
and eventually precipitates in the form of rain
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而最終成為雨的型態
02:53
across the La Plata Basin.
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穿過整個拉普拉塔流域
02:55
This rainfall cycle, this rainfall factory,
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這個降雨週期,這個降雨工廠
02:58
effectively feeds an agricultural economy
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有效的滋養了整個農業經濟
03:00
of the order of 240 billion dollars-worth
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價值240億美元
03:02
in Latin America.
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在整個拉丁美洲
03:04
But the question arises: Okay, so how much
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但問題來了:好,所以
03:07
do Uruguay, Paraguay, Argentina
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烏拉圭、巴拉圭、阿根廷
03:09
and indeed the state of Mato Grosso in Brazil
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當然還有在巴西的馬托格羅索州
03:12
pay for that vital input to that economy
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到底為了這個關鍵的經濟命脈附出了多少
03:15
to the state of Amazonas, which produces that rainfall?
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給亞馬遜，這個造雨的地方?
03:18
And the answer is zilch,
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而答案是零
03:20
exactly zero.
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剛剛好零
03:22
That's the economic invisibility of nature.
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這就是自然的隱藏經濟
03:24
That can't keep going on,
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但這不能像這樣持續下去
03:26
because economic incentives and disincentives are very powerful.
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因為經濟激勵和抑製作用是非常強大的。
03:29
Economics has become the currency of policy.
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經濟已經成為貨幣政策
03:31
And unless we address
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要是我們不正視
03:33
this invisibility,
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這個隱藏力
03:35
we are going to get the results that we are seeing,
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我們將會得到一些可被預知的結果
03:37
which is a gradual degradation and loss
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-一個漸進的對這個保貴自然資產
03:40
of this valuable natural asset.
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的虧損
03:42
It's not just about the Amazonas, or indeed about rainforests.
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而這不只關於亞馬遜或雨林
03:45
No matter what level you look at,
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不管你是從哪個層面看它
03:47
whether it's at the ecosystem level or at the species level or at the genetic level,
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不管你是在生態系統或物種上的或是基因層面的
03:50
we see the same problem again and again.
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我們看到同樣的問題重複上演
03:53
So rainfall cycle and water regulation by rainforests
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所以降雨週期和水循環
03:56
at an ecosystem level.
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在生態系統的層面上被降雨所控制
03:58
At the species level,
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在物種的層面上來說
04:00
it's been estimated that insect-based pollination,
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透過昆蟲授粉
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bees pollinating fruit and so on,
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及蜜蜂給水果授粉還有其他的種種
04:05
is something like 190 billion dollars-worth.
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被預估約有190億美元的產值
04:08
That's something like eight percent
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這大約是
04:10
of the total agricultural output globally.
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全球農業經濟產值的8%
04:14
It completely passes below the radar screen.
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這完全被我們忽視
04:16
But when did a bee actually ever give you an invoice?
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但話說回來，蜜蜂何時給過你帳單?
04:19
Or for that matter, if you look at the genetic level,
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又好比我們從基因的層面來看
04:22
60 percent of medicines were prospected,
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60%的藥品都是由此發展
04:25
were found first as molecules in a rainforest or a reef.
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都是先以分子的型態在雨林或珊瑚礁中發現
04:28
Once again, most of that doesn't get paid.
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再一次，它們大部分都未被付費
04:30
And that brings me to another aspect of this,
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這將我們帶到另外一個問題
04:32
which is, to whom should this get paid?
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所以這之中誰該被付費
04:35
That genetic material
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這些基因原料
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probably belonged, if it could belong to anyone,
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如果該當屬於任何什麼人,可能是屬於
04:39
to a local community of poor people
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當地貧窮的社區
04:41
who parted with the knowledge that helped the researchers to find the molecule,
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他們顯現了這些知識,讓研究學者發現了這些分子
04:44
which then became the medicine.
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然後用來製藥
04:46
They were the ones that didn't get paid.
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他們也是那些沒有被付費的一員
04:48
And if you look at the species level,
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然後如果你從物種的角度來看
04:51
you saw about fish.
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想想魚
04:53
Today, the depletion of ocean fisheries is so significant
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今天，海洋漁業的枯竭是如此顯著
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that effectively it is effecting the ability of the poor,
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非常有效地影響窮人的能力，
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the artisanal fisher folk
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那些徒手捕魚的漁民
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and those who fish for their own livelihoods,
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那些只為求生存養活家人
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to feed their families.
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而捕魚的漁民
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Something like a billion people depend on fish,
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大約有一億人民依賴漁業
05:08
the quantity of fish in the oceans.
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依賴大海中的魚量
05:10
A billion people depend on fish
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大約有一億的人口
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for their main source for animal protein.
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依賴魚為他們提供主要的蛋白質來源
05:15
And at this rate at which we are losing fish,
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而按照我們失去魚量的速度
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it is a human problem of enormous dimensions,
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它是一個與人類相關的巨大問題
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a health problem
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是健康的問題
05:21
of a kind we haven't seen before.
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一個我們前所未聞的問題
05:24
And finally, at the ecosystem level,
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最後,在生態系統的層面
05:26
whether it's flood prevention or drought control provided by the forests,
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無論是旱災或水災的預防控制皆由森林所提供，
05:29
or whether it is the ability of poor farmers
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它也讓那些貧窮的農夫
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to go out and gather leaf litter
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可以收集些落葉
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for their cattle and goats,
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餵養牛羊
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or whether it's the ability of their wives
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也讓農夫們的老婆
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to go and collect fuel wood from the forest,
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可以去收集森林裡的殘枝當材燒
05:39
it is actually the poor
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實際上正是那些最貧窮的人
05:41
who depend most on these ecosystem services.
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依賴這個生態系統最多。
05:43
We did estimates in our study
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我們在我們的研究裡作了預測
05:45
that for countries like Brazil, India and Indonesia,
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在那些像是巴西,印度,印尼之類的國家
05:48
even though ecosystem services --
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儘管生態系統免費提供
05:50
these benefits that flow from nature to humanity for free --
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這些免費的由自然流向人類社會的利益
05:53
they're not very big in percentage terms of GDP --
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他們在國內生產總值的百分比計算上並沒有佔非常大的比例
05:55
two, four, eight, 10, 15 percent --
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2,4,8,10,15個百分點
05:57
but in these countries, if we measure how much they're worth to the poor,
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但是在這些國家裡,如果我們量測這對窮人來說多有價值,
06:00
the answers are more like
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那麼答案會比較接近
06:02
45 percent, 75 percent, 90 percent.
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45%,75%,90%
06:05
That's the difference.
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這是其中的差異
06:07
Because these are important benefits for the poor.
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因為這些對窮人來說是非常重要的利益
06:10
And you can't really have a proper model for development
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而你沒有辦法架設一個適恰的發展模式
06:13
if at the same time you're destroying or allowing
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如果同時間你在破壞,或允許
06:16
the degradation of the very asset, the most important asset,
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資產退化的發生,關於這最重要的資產
06:19
which is your development asset,
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是你發展的資本
06:21
that is ecological infrastructure.
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這是生態基礎設施。
06:23
How bad can things get?
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所以事情可以有多糟?
06:25
Well here a picture of something called the mean species abundance.
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這是一個叫做平均物種豐富的圖片
06:28
It's basically a measure
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他基本上量測
06:30
of how many tigers, toads, ticks or whatever on average
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這附近有多少老虎,，蟾蜍，蜱或任何
06:32
of biomass of various species are around.
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不同物種存在。
06:35
The green represents the percentage.
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綠色代表百分率
06:37
If you start green, it's like 80 to 100 percent.
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如果是綠色，那表示80%到100%
06:40
If it's yellow, it's 40 to 60 percent.
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如果是黃色,那代表40%到60%
06:42
And these are percentages versus the original state, so to speak,
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這些則可以當作是相較於原始狀況的百分比
06:44
the pre-industrial era, 1750.
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這是前工業時期,1750年
06:47
Now I'm going to show you
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現在我要告訴你
06:49
how business as usual will affect this.
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一如往常的生活方式會如何影響這個
06:51
And just watch the change in colors
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只要看著這些顏色的變化
06:53
in India, China, Europe,
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在印度、中國、歐洲
06:55
sub-Saharan Africa
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南撒哈拉非洲
06:57
as we move on and consume global biomass
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當我們開始消耗全球的生物體
07:00
at a rate which is actually not going to be able to sustain us.
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用一種其實沒辦法繼續支持我們存活的速度
07:04
See that again.
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讓我們再看一次
07:06
The only places that remain green -- and that's not good news --
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唯一還是綠色的地方，且這並不是好消息
07:08
is, in fact, places like the Gobi Desert,
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事實上，是像是戈壁沙漠的地方
07:11
like the tundra and like the Sahara.
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像是苔原和像是的撒哈拉大沙漠
07:13
But that doesn't help because there were very few species
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但這對我們並沒有幫助，因為這些地方擁有非常少量的物種
07:15
and volume of biomass there in the first place.
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一開始的生物量就很低
07:17
This is the challenge.
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這是我們面對的挑戰
07:19
The reason this is happening
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而這正是發生的原因
07:22
boils down, in my mind, to one basic problem,
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追根究柢，對我來說，是一個非常基本的問題
07:25
which is our inability to perceive the difference
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是我們無法感知
07:27
between public benefits
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群體利益
07:29
and private profits.
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和個人獲利的差別
07:31
We tend to constantly ignore public wealth
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我們習慣性的忽略公眾利益
07:34
simply because it is in the common wealth,
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就只因為他是共同財富
07:36
it's common goods.
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是公共財
07:38
And here's an example from Thailand
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這是一個來自泰國的例子
07:40
where we found that, because the value of a mangrove is not that much --
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在那裡我們發現，由於紅樹林的價值並不多 -
07:44
it's about $600 over the life of nine years that this has been measured --
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在九年的生命裡大概值600美元
07:48
compared to its value as a shrimp farm,
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和它做為養蝦場的價值
07:50
which is more like $9,600,
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約9600美元相比
07:52
there has been a gradual trend to deplete the mangroves
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逐漸出現了砍筏紅樹林趨勢
07:55
and convert them to shrimp farms.
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將它們改為養蝦場
07:57
But of course, if you look at exactly what those profits are,
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但當然，如果你仔細看這些利潤
08:01
almost 8,000 of those dollars
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價值相當8000美元
08:03
are, in fact, subsidies.
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實際上是補貼
08:05
So you compare the two sides of the coin
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所以你如果比較這個硬幣的兩面
08:08
and you find that it's more like 1,200 to 600.
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你會發現這比較像是1200比600
08:10
That's not that hard.
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這其實沒有那麼難
08:12
But on the other hand, if you start measuring,
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但另一方面，如果你開始測量，
08:14
how much would it actually cost
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它實際上會花多少錢
08:16
to restore the land of the shrimp farm
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將養蝦場重建成
08:18
back to productive use?
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生產使用？
08:20
Once salt deposition and chemical deposition
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一旦鹽沉積和化學沉積
08:22
has had its effects,
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開始對這片土地作用
08:24
that answer is more like $12,000 of cost.
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那答案是它會花12000美元
08:27
And if you see the benefits of the mangrove
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而如果你看到紅樹林的好處
08:29
in terms of the storm protection and cyclone protection that you get
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比如說你可以得到的風暴保護和氣旋保護
08:32
and in terms of the fisheries, the fish nurseries,
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又比如在漁業方面，天然育魚場所
08:34
that provide fish for the poor,
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它們提供窮人魚料
08:36
that answer is more like $11,000.
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她們答案會是大約11000美元
08:38
So now look at the different lens.
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所以現在我們來比較兩者差異
08:40
If you look at the lens of public wealth
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如果你從公共財富的角度來看
08:42
as against the lens of private profits,
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和私人獲利的角度相比
08:44
you get a completely different answer,
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你會得到一個全然不同的答案
08:46
which is clearly conservation makes more sense,
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那就是顯然保育更有意義，
08:49
and not destruction.
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而不是破壞
08:51
So is this just a story from South Thailand?
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那麼這只是一個來自南泰國的故事嗎?
08:54
Sorry, this is a global story.
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抱歉不是的，這是一個全球的故事
08:56
And here's what the same calculation looks like,
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而這是一個同樣的計算看起來的樣子
08:58
which was done recently -- well I say recently, over the last 10 years --
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是最近才完成的，當我說最近，那是近十年的事
09:01
by a group called TRUCOST.
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一個叫做TRUCOST的組織
09:03
And they calculated for the top 3,000 corporations,
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他們計算前3000企業
09:05
what are the externalities?
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的外部成本
09:07
In other words, what are the costs of doing business as usual?
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換句話說，讓他們繼續一如以往運作的成本是什麼
09:09
This is not illegal stuff, this is basically business as usual,
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這並不是非法的，這就只是企業正常運作
09:12
which causes climate-changing emissions, which have an economic cost.
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這運作會導致氣候變化的排放，有它的經濟成本。
09:15
It causes pollutants being issued, which have an economic cost,
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這運作也導致汙染源的排放，這亦有它的經濟成本
09:18
health cost and so on.
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健康成本等等
09:20
Use of freshwater.
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用乾淨的水源
09:22
If you drill water to make coke near a village farm,
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如果你在一個農場村落的旁邊鑽水，製造可樂
09:24
that's not illegal, but yes, it costs the community.
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這並不是非法的，但它的確會讓社群付出代價
09:26
Can we stop this, and how?
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我們可以停止這一切嗎，而且要怎麼做?
09:28
I think the first point to make is that we need to recognize natural capital.
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我想首先是我們得認清自然資本的存在
09:31
Basically the stuff of life is natural capital,
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基本上所有生命裡的東西都是自然資本
09:34
and we need to recognize and build that into our systems.
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而我們必須去認識它並將它併入我們的系統
09:37
When we measure GDP
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當我們衡量國內生產總值
09:39
as a measure of economic performance at the national level,
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作為一個量測國家經濟表現的指標
09:41
we don't include our biggest asset at the country level.
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我們不該只是去計算在國家裡最大的資產。
09:44
When we measure corporate performances,
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當我們衡量企業表現
09:46
we don't include our impacts on nature
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我們不計算我們對於自然的影響
09:48
and what our business costs society.
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也不去計算我們的商業活動讓整個社會承擔多少花費
09:50
That has to stop.
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這必須停止
09:52
In fact, this was what really inspired my interest in this phase.
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事實上，這才是現階段啟發我興趣的根源
09:55
I began a project way back called the Green Accounting Project.
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我很早之前推動綠色會計計劃
09:57
That was in the early 2000s
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那是在2000年初的事
09:59
when India was going gung-ho about GDP growth
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當印度賣力使GDP增長
10:02
as the means forward --
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做為繼續前進基石的時代
10:04
looking at China with its stellar growths of eight, nine, 10 percent
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看著中國還有它穩定的成長8%,9,10%
10:06
and wondering, why can we do the same?
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然後想著，我們為什麼可以一直做一樣的事
10:08
And a few friends of mine and I
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所以我的一些朋友和我
10:10
decided this doesn't make sense.
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決定這不合理
10:12
This is going to create more cost to society and more losses.
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這將會讓社會付出更多代價，產生更多損失
10:15
So we decided to do a massive set of calculations
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所以我們決定要開始一項龐大的計算
10:17
and started producing green accounts for India and its states.
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然後開始會印度和個洲製作綠色會計
10:20
That's how my interests began
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我的興趣是這樣開始的
10:22
and went to the TEEB project.
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然後接著做TEEB計劃
10:24
Calculating this at the national level is one thing, and it has begun.
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為每個國家計算這些數值，是這樣開始的
10:27
And the World Bank has acknowledged this
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然後世界銀行認可了這件事
10:29
and they've started a project called WAVES --
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他們也開始一個計劃叫做WAVES
10:31
Wealth Accounting and Valuation of Ecosystem Services.
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財富會計和生態系統估價服務的簡稱
10:33
But calculating this at the next level,
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但是，再另外一個新的層面計算
10:35
that means at the business sector level, is important.
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這意味著在部門級的業務，是重要的。
10:37
And actually we've done this with the TEEB project.
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而事實上我們在TEEB計畫中實際這麼做了
10:39
We've done this for a very difficult case,
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我們已經對一個非常困難的例子做了計算
10:42
which was for deforestation in China.
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是關於中國的森林砍筏
10:44
This is important, because in China in 1997,
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這是非常重要的，因為中國在1997
10:47
the Yellow River actually went dry for nine months
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黃河實際上乾涸了整整九個月
10:50
causing severe loss of agriculture output
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造成非常嚴重的農業經濟損失
10:52
and pain and loss to society.
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和整個社會痛苦和損失。
10:54
Just a year later the Yangtze flooded,
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這是長江流域水災的僅僅一年之後
10:56
causing something like 5,500 deaths.
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造成將近五千五百人死亡
10:59
So clearly there was a problem with deforestation.
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所以很顯然與毀林相關
11:01
It was associated largely with the construction industry.
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這和建設公司有相當深厚的關係
11:04
And the Chinese government responded sensibly
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而中國政府採取非常合理的回應
11:06
and placed a ban on felling.
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頒布了一個砍伐禁令。
11:08
A retrospective on 40 years
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一個四十年回顧
11:10
shows that if we had accounted for these costs --
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我們看到，如果我們計算了這些損失
11:14
the cost of loss of topsoil,
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表土流失的成本
11:16
the cost of loss of waterways,
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損失水路的成本
11:18
the lost productivity, the loss to local communities
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生產力的損失，給當地社區的損失
11:21
as a result of all these factors,
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綜合所有因素的結果，
11:23
desertification and so on --
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荒漠化等等
11:25
those costs are almost twice as much
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這些費用是幾乎是
11:27
as the market price of timber.
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木材市場價格的兩倍
11:29
So in fact, the price of timber in the Beijing marketplace
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所以事實上，這些北京市場裡頭的木材
11:32
ought to have been three-times what it was
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實際上應該要賣它們的三倍價
11:34
had it reflected the true pain and the costs
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要是它反映了它讓中國社會
11:37
to the society within China.
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真正的付出的痛苦和成本
11:39
Of course, after the event one can be wise.
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當然，這樣的事件之後我們會變聰明
11:42
The way to do this is to do it on a company basis,
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要做到這一點的，我們得由各公司
11:44
to take leadership forward,
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扮演領導的角色
11:46
and to do it for as many important sectors which have a cost,
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我們得讓很多耗費成本的產業參與
11:49
and to disclose these answers.
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去披露這些答案
11:51
Someone once asked me, "Who is better or worse,
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有人曾經問過我，那個企業比較糟糕
11:53
is it Unilever or is it P&G
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是聯合利華還是寶僑
11:55
when it comes to their impact on rainforests in Indonesia?"
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如果我們要論它們對印尼雨林的影響
11:58
And I couldn't answer because neither of these companies,
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我沒有辦法回答這個問題，因為這兩間公司
12:00
good though they are and professional though they are,
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儘管是專業和良好的，
12:02
do not calculate or disclose their externalities.
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都沒有計算或報告這些外部成本
12:05
But if we look at companies like PUMA --
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但如果你們檢視公司像是PUMA
12:07
Jochen Zeitz, their CEO and chairman,
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他們的公司的主席和執行長Jochen Jeitz
12:09
once challenged me at a function,
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有次在一個聚會上挑戰我
12:11
saying that he's going to implement my project before I finish it.
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告訴我他們將會比我早一步完成這個計畫
12:14
Well I think we kind of did it at the same time, but he's done it.
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我猜想我們幾乎同時間完成，但是他做到了
12:17
He's basically worked the cost to PUMA.
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他基本上計算了PUMA的成本
12:19
PUMA has 2.7 billion dollars of turnover,
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PUMA有大約2.7億的年收
12:21
300 million dollars of profits,
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300百萬美元獲利
12:23
200 million dollars after tax,
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稅後大約200百萬美元
12:25
94 million dollars of externalities, cost to business.
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94百萬美元的外部成本，計算到它們的營運成本裡頭
12:28
Now that's not a happy situation for them,
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這對她們來說並不是一個好的狀況
12:30
but they have the confidence and the courage
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但他們有信心也有勇氣
12:32
to come forward and say, "Here's what we are measuring.
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公開的說，"這是我們計算出來的結果
12:35
We are measuring it because we know
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我們計算，因為我們知道
12:37
that you cannot manage what you do not measure."
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我們沒有辦法確實管理，如果我們不計算的話"
12:39
That's an example, I think, for us to look at
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這是一個例子，我想，讓我們可以看看
12:41
and for us to draw comfort from.
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讓我們可以稍微放鬆一些
12:43
If more companies did this,
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如果有更多公司這麼做
12:45
and if more sectors engaged this as sectors,
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有更多產業願意加入
12:47
you could have analysts, business analysts,
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你可以有分析師，業務分析師，
12:49
and you could have people like us and consumers and NGOs
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你可以有人像我們、消費者、或非政府組織
12:52
actually look and compare the social performance of companies.
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確實探討比較企業的社會責任表現。
12:55
Today we can't yet do that, but I think the path is laid out.
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到目前為止，我們還不能這麼做，但道路已經顯現眼前
12:58
This can be done.
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這事可能可以做到的
13:00
And I'm delighted that the Institute of Chartered Accountants in the U.K.
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我很高興英國的特許會計師公會
13:02
has already set up a coalition to do this,
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已經設立了一個聯盟來進行這個計畫
13:04
an international coalition.
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一個國際聯盟
13:06
The other favorite, if you like, solution for me
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另外一個我也喜歡的解決方案
13:09
is the creation of green carbon markets.
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是創造綠色碳市場
13:11
And by the way, these are my favorites --
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附帶一提，這兩樣是我最喜歡的
13:13
externalities calculation and green carbon markets.
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外部成本的計算和綠色碳市場
13:15
TEEB has more than a dozen separate groups of solutions
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TEEB具有上打單獨的解決方案
13:19
including protected area evaluation
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包括保護區的評價
13:21
and payments for ecosystem services
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生態系統服務的收費
13:23
and eco-certification and you name it, but these are the favorites.
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和生態認證，隨便你說，但這兩樣都是我的最愛
13:26
What's green carbon?
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什麼示綠色碳?
13:28
Today what we have is basically a brown carbon marketplace.
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今天我們基本上是一個棕色的碳市場
13:30
It's about energy emissions.
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關於能源排放。
13:32
The European Union ETS is the main marketplace.
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歐盟的ETS是主要市場
13:34
It's not doing too well. We've over-issued.
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我們並沒有做得很好，我們過分發行
13:36
A bit like inflation: you over-issue currency,
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有點像通貨膨脹：你過度發行貨幣，
13:38
you get what you see, declining prices.
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你得到你所看到的，價格下降。
13:41
But that's all about energy and industry.
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但這全都是關於能源和工業
13:44
But what we're missing is also some other emissions
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但是，我們缺少的是也有一些其他的排放
13:46
like black carbon, that is soot.
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像黑碳，這是煙塵
13:48
What we're also missing is blue carbon,
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而我們還缺少的是藍色的碳，
13:50
which, by the way, is the largest store of carbon --
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順便說一下，是最大的碳存儲區 -
13:52
more than 55 percent.
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超過55%
13:54
Thankfully, the flux, in other words, the flow of emissions
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值得慶幸的是，通量，換句話說，排放的流向
13:56
from the ocean to the atmosphere and vice versa,
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從海洋到大氣中，再從大氣到海洋中
13:58
is more or less balanced.
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或多或少都是平衡的
14:00
In fact, what's being absorbed
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實際上，那些被吸收的
14:02
is something like 25 percent of our emissions,
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是大約佔我們所排放的25%
14:05
which then leads to acidification
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然後導致酸化
14:07
or lower alkalinity in oceans.
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或更低的海洋鹼度。
14:09
More of that in a minute.
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我們待會兒再說一下這個
14:11
And finally, there's deforestation,
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最後，還有森林砍伐
14:13
and there's emission of methane
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還有來自農業經濟的
14:15
from agriculture.
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甲烷排放
14:17
Green carbon,
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綠色碳
14:19
which is the deforestation and agricultural emissions,
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也就是森林砍伐和農業排放，
14:21
and blue carbon
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而藍色碳
14:23
together comprise 25 percent of our emissions.
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共同構成了我們的排放量的25％。
14:25
We have the means already in our hands,
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我們已經有解決的方法
14:27
through a structure, through a mechanism, called REDD Plus --
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透過一個叫做REDD Plus的組織和架構
14:29
a scheme for the reduced emissions
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一個減少廢氣排放的計劃
14:31
from deforestation and forest degradation.
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從毀林和森林退化。
14:34
And already Norway has contributed a billion dollars each
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挪威已經貢獻一億美元，分別
14:37
towards Indonesia and Brazil
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給印尼和巴西
14:39
to implement this Red Plus scheme.
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讓他們執行REDD Plus
14:41
So we actually have some movement forward.
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所以我們其實是在進步的
14:43
But the thing is to do a lot more of that.
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但重點是應該要做更多
14:45
Will this solve the problem? Will economics solve everything?
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這會解決問題嗎? 經濟會解決一切嗎
14:48
Well I'm afraid not.
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我覺得恐怕不行的
14:50
There is an area that is the oceans, coral reefs.
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有一個領域是屬於海洋的，珊瑚礁。
14:53
As you can see,
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正如你所看到
14:55
they cut across the entire globe
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它們橫跨整個地球
14:57
all the way from Micronesia
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一路從密克羅尼西亞
14:59
across Indonesia, Malaysia, India, Madagascar
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跨過印尼、馬來西亞、印度、馬達加斯加
15:02
and to the West of the Caribbean.
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到西加勒比
15:04
These red dots, these red areas,
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這些紅點，這些紅色區域
15:06
basically provide the food and livelihood
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基本上提供食物和生命
15:08
for more than half a billion people.
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給超過半億人口
15:10
So that's almost an eighth of society.
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那幾乎是1/8個社會
15:13
And the sad thing is that, as these coral reefs are lost --
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而令人難過的事，我們正在失去這些珊瑚礁
15:16
and scientists tell us
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科學家告訴我們
15:18
that any level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere above 350 parts per million
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任何在大氣中超過350百萬分之一以上的二氧化碳
15:21
is too dangerous for the survival of these reefs --
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都會對珊瑚礁的存活造成威脅
15:24
we are not only risking the extinction
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我們不僅冒著滅絕
15:26
of the entire coral species, the warm water corals,
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整個珊瑚礁物種，溫水珊瑚
15:28
we're not only risking a fourth of all fish species which are in the oceans,
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我們不僅冒著滅絕在海洋中1/4的所有魚類，
15:32
but we are risking the very lives and livelihoods
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我們也冒著滅絕超過五百萬人口
15:34
of more than 500 million people
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的生命和生計
15:37
who live in the developing world in poor countries.
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他們生活在發展中的貧窮國家。
15:40
So in selecting targets of 450 parts per million
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因此，選擇450百萬分之一為目標
15:43
and selecting two degrees at the climate negotiations,
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在氣候談判的時候選擇兩度
15:46
what we have done is we've made an ethical choice.
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我們所做的是道德的選擇
15:49
We've actually kind of made an ethical choice in society
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我們實際上是在做社會裡的道德選擇
15:52
to not have coral reefs.
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說我們不要珊瑚礁
15:54
Well what I will say to you in parting
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在我們要說再見之前，我想要說
15:56
is that we may have done that.
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我們的確已經做了這些
15:58
Let's think about it and what it means,
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讓我們想想這代表的意義
16:00
but please, let's not do more of that.
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但，拜託，我們不應該繼續麼做
16:02
Because mother nature only has that much
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因為大地之母就只有這麼多
16:04
in ecological infrastructure and that much natural capital.
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生態基礎設施和自然資本
16:07
I don't think we can afford too much of such ethical choices.
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我不認為我們可以承受太多這樣道德的選擇。
16:10
Thank you.
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謝謝
16:12
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Pavan Sukhdev - Environmental economistA banker by training, Pavan Sukhdev runs the numbers on greening up -- showing that green economies are an effective engine for creating jobs and creating wealth.
Why you should listen
In 2008, Sukhdev took a sabbatical from Deutsche Bank, where he'd worked for fifteen years, to write up two massive and convincing reports on the green economy. For UNEP, his “Green Economy Report” synthesized years of research to show, with real numbers, that environmentally sound development is not a bar to growth but rather a new engine for growing wealth and creating employment in the face of persistent poverty. The groundbreaking TEEB (formally “The Economics of Ecosystems and Biodiversity”) report counts the global economic benefits of biodiversity. It encourages countries to develop and publish “Natural capital accounts” tracking the value of plants, animal, water and other “natural wealth” alongside traditional financial measures in the hope of changing how decisions are made. In his book, Corporation 2020, he envisions tomorrow’s corporations as agents of an inclusive, green economy. He is now the CEO of Gist Advisory, a sustainability consulting firm.
Pavan Sukhdev | Speaker | TED.com