ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Deborah Lipstadt - Historian
Deborah Lipstadt's research focuses on the development of Holocaust denial and how to fight for the truth in an era marked by "alternative facts."

Why you should listen

Dr. Deborah E. Lipstadt, Dorot professor of Holocaust Studies at Emory University in Atlanta, was sued for libel in 1996 by David Irving for having called him a Holocaust denier. After a ten-week trial in London in 2000, in an overwhelming victory for Lipstadt, the judge found Irving to be a "neo-Nazi polemicist" who "perverts" history and engages in "racist" and "anti-Semitic" discourse. The Daily Telegraph (London) described the trial as having "done for the new century what the Nuremberg tribunals or the Eichmann trial did for earlier generations." The Times (London) described it as "history has had its day in court and scored a crushing victory." According to the New York Times, the trial "put an end to the pretense that Mr. Irving is anything but a self-promoting apologist for Hitler."

The movie Denial, starring Rachel Weisz and Tom Wilkenson with a screenplay by David Hare, tells the story of this legal battle.  It is based on Lipstadt's book, History on Trial: My Day in Court with a Holocaust Denier (Harper Collins, 2006), and recently reissued as Denial (Harper Collins, 2016). The film was nominated for a BAFTA as one of the best British films of the year.

Lipstadt has written most recently Holocaust: An American Understanding (Rutgers, 2016), which explores how America has understood and interpreted the Holocaust since 1945.

Her previous book, The Eichmann Trial, (Schocken/Nextbook, 2011) published in commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the Eichmann trial, was called by Publisher's Weekly, "a penetrating and authoritative dissection of a landmark case and its after effects." The New York Times Book Review described Lipstadt as having "done a great service by … recovering the event as a gripping legal drama, as well as a hinge moment in Israel's history and in the world's delayed awakening to the magnitude of the Holocaust."

She has also published Beyond Belief: The American Press And The Coming Of The Holocaust, 1933-1945 (Free Press, 1986), which surveys what the American press wrote about the persecution of the Jews in the years 1933-1945.  She is currently writing a book, The Antisemitic Delusion: Letters to a Concerned Student which will be published in 2018.

At Emory, Lipstadt directs the website known as HDOT, Holocaust Denial on Trial, which contains a complete archive of the proceedings of Irving v. Penguin UK and Deborah Lipstadt. It also provides answers to frequent claims made by deniers. Lipstadt has won the Emery Williams Teaching Award, and she was selected for the award by alumni as the teacher who had most influenced them.

Lipstadt was a historical consultant to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, helping design the section of the Museum dedicated to the American Response to the Holocaust. She has held a Presidential appointment to the United States Holocaust Memorial Council (from Presidents Clinton and Obama) and was asked by President George W. Bush to represent the White House at the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.

Lipstadt has a BA from the City College of New York and an MA and PhD from Brandeis University.

More profile about the speaker
Deborah Lipstadt | Speaker | TED.com
TEDxSkoll

Deborah Lipstadt: Behind the lies of Holocaust denial

黛博拉.利普斯塔特: 否認猶太大屠殺的謊言背後

Filmed:
1,378,476 views

「有些是事實、有些是意見、有些卻是謊言。」歷史學者黛博拉.利普斯塔特講述她的研究,關於否認猶太大屠殺存在的人,以及他們蓄意扭曲歷史的故事。利普塔斯特鼓勵大家勇敢對抗攻擊真相和事實的人。「真相是絕對的,不是相對的。」
- Historian
Deborah Lipstadt's research focuses on the development of Holocaust denial and how to fight for the truth in an era marked by "alternative facts." Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:13
I come to you today今天 to speak說話 of liars騙子,
0
1082
4083
我今天要聊說謊的人、
聊官司、
00:17
lawsuits訴訟
1
5189
1423
00:18
and laughter笑聲.
2
6636
1340
聊些好笑的事。
00:20
The first time I heard聽說
about Holocaust大屠殺 denial否認,
3
8910
3110
初次聽到有人否認猶太大屠殺,
00:24
I laughed笑了.
4
12044
1302
我就笑了。
00:25
Holocaust大屠殺 denial否認?
5
13970
1752
否認猶太大屠殺?
00:28
The Holocaust大屠殺 which哪一個 has
the dubious可疑 distinction分別
6
16187
3430
是那個史上最惡名昭彰,
00:31
of being存在 the best-documented最好的證明
genocide種族滅絕 in the world世界?
7
19641
4495
被最完整記錄的猶太大屠殺嗎?
誰會相信沒有這回事?
00:37
Who could believe it didn't happen發生?
8
25046
2026
00:40
Think about it.
9
28106
1347
你想想看,
00:42
For deniers否認 to be right,
10
30257
2281
如果那些否認者是對的,
那誰是錯的?
00:44
who would have to be wrong錯誤?
11
32562
1896
00:47
Well, first of all, the victims受害者 --
12
35011
2766
首先,受害者,
00:49
the survivors倖存者 who have told us
their harrowing悲慘 stories故事.
13
37801
4717
說出恐怖經歷的倖存者。
00:55
Who else其他 would have to be wrong錯誤?
14
43721
2314
還會有誰是錯的?
00:58
The bystanders旁觀者.
15
46059
1953
旁觀者。
01:00
The people who lived生活 in the myriads無數
of towns城市 and villages村莊 and cities城市
16
48036
3978
東方戰線上,
無數城鎮、村莊、城市的居民,
01:04
on the Eastern front面前,
17
52038
1972
01:06
who watched看著 their neighbors鄰居
be rounded up --
18
54034
2442
看著他們的鄰居被圍捕,
01:08
men男人, women婦女, children孩子, young年輕, old --
19
56500
3213
不分男女老少,
01:11
and be marched遊行
to the outskirts郊區 of the town
20
59737
2720
被驅趕到城鎮外圍,
01:14
to be shot射擊 and left dead in ditches溝渠.
21
62481
2992
中槍後就被丟在壕溝內等死。
01:17
Or the Poles波蘭人,
22
65985
1330
還有波蘭人,
01:19
who lived生活 in towns城市 and villages村莊
around the death死亡 camps營地,
23
67339
4681
住在集中營附近的城鎮和村莊。
01:24
who watched看著 day after day
24
72044
2376
日復一日看著
01:26
as the trains火車 went in filled填充 with people
25
74444
2742
裝滿人的火車駛入,
01:29
and came來了 out empty.
26
77210
1523
然後空空地離開。
01:31
But above以上 all, who would have to be wrong錯誤?
27
79787
3633
除了這些人,還有誰是錯的?
01:36
The perpetrators肇事者.
28
84005
1464
加害者。
01:38
The people who say, "We did it.
29
86112
2906
他們承認「是我們做的、是我做的」。
01:41
I did it."
30
89479
1524
也許他們會加上但書,
01:43
Now, maybe they add a caveat警告.
31
91027
2149
01:45
They say, "I didn't have a choice選擇;
I was forced被迫 to do it."
32
93200
4424
會說「我別無選擇、我是被逼的」。
01:50
But nonetheless儘管如此,, they say, "I did it."
33
98104
2669
但至少他們承認「我有做」。
01:53
Think about it.
34
101938
1551
想想看。
01:55
In not one war戰爭 crimes犯罪 trial審訊
since以來 the end結束 of World世界 War戰爭 IIII
35
103513
5939
二戰結束之後每一場審判,
02:01
has a perpetrator肇事者 of any nationality國籍
ever said, "It didn't happen發生."
36
109476
6636
沒有任何國籍的任何戰犯
說過「沒有大屠殺」。
02:09
Again, they may可能 have said, "I was forced被迫,"
but never that it didn't happen發生.
37
117078
4582
頂多說「身不由己」,但絕不否認。
02:13
Having thought that through通過,
38
121684
1474
想了一輪之後,
02:15
I decided決定 denial否認 was not
going to be on my agenda議程;
39
123182
3951
我就決定不去碰這件事。
02:19
I had bigger things to worry擔心 about,
to write about, to research研究,
40
127157
3708
我有其他要費心的工作和研究,
02:22
and I moved移動 on.
41
130889
1314
所以我就不管了。
02:24
Fast-forward快進 a little over a decade,
42
132911
2819
約略十多年後,
02:27
and two senior前輩 scholars學者 --
43
135754
1812
兩位資深的學者,
02:29
two of the most prominent突出 historians歷史學家
of the Holocaust大屠殺 --
44
137590
3158
兩位猶太大屠殺的歷史權威,
02:32
approached接近 me and said,
45
140772
1257
來找我說,
「黛博拉,一起喝杯咖啡吧。
02:34
"Deborah黛博拉, let's have coffee咖啡.
46
142053
1789
02:35
We have a research研究 idea理念
that we think is perfect完善 for you."
47
143866
3597
我們有個研究構想,蠻適合你的。」
02:39
Intrigued出於好奇 and flattered受寵若驚
that they came來了 to me with an idea理念
48
147487
3833
一方面好奇,一方面覺得榮幸,
他們會找上我做研究。
02:43
and thought me worthy值得 of it,
49
151344
1577
02:44
I asked, "What is it?"
50
152945
2096
我就問「什麼主題?」
02:47
And they said, "Holocaust大屠殺 denial否認."
51
155665
2989
他們說「否認猶太大屠殺」。
02:51
And for the second第二 time, I laughed笑了.
52
159353
2495
第二次聽到,我又笑了。
02:54
Holocaust大屠殺 denial否認?
53
162336
1924
否認猶太大屠殺?
02:56
The Flat平面 Earth地球 folks鄉親?
54
164284
1986
是相信「地平說」的人嗎?
02:58
The Elvis-is-alive貓王是活 people?
55
166294
2137
還是相信貓王還活著的人?
03:00
I should study研究 them?
56
168455
2188
要我研究他們?
03:03
And these two guys said,
57
171326
1317
他們就說,
03:04
"Yeah, we're intrigued好奇.
58
172667
1933
「對,我們很好奇。
03:07
What are they about?
59
175012
1572
他們是什麼人?
03:08
What's their objective目的?
60
176608
1750
目的是什麼?
03:10
How do they manage管理 to get people
to believe what they say?"
61
178382
3654
他們為什麼要大費周章地
讓大眾相信他們?」
03:14
So thinking思維, if they thought
it was worthwhile合算,
62
182756
3528
我就想,如果他們覺得有必要,
03:18
I would take a momentary瞬間 diversion導流 --
63
186308
3374
我可以稍微研究「一下」,
03:21
maybe a year, maybe two,
three, maybe even four --
64
189706
2938
也許一、兩年,或三、四年,
學術研究的「一下」很隨興。
03:24
in academic學術的 terms條款, that's momentary瞬間.
65
192668
2245
03:26
(Laughter笑聲)
66
194937
1142
(笑聲)
03:28
We work very slowly慢慢地.
67
196103
2387
一切慢慢來。
03:30
(Laughter笑聲)
68
198514
1572
(笑聲)
03:32
And I would look at them.
69
200110
1802
我就去做研究。
03:33
So I did.
70
201936
1155
總之就這樣。
03:35
I did my research研究, and I came來了 up
with a number of things,
71
203115
2839
研究完成後,我得出幾點結論,
03:37
two of which哪一個 I'd like to share分享
with you today今天.
72
205978
2593
今天特別要分享其中兩點。
03:40
One:
73
208595
1333
第一:
03:41
deniers否認 are wolves in sheep's clothing服裝.
74
209952
4957
否認者是披著羊皮的狼。
03:47
They are the same相同: Nazis納粹, neo-Nazis新納粹 --
75
215712
2965
骨子裡一樣是納粹、新納粹,
加不加「新」沒什麼差。
03:50
you can decide決定 whether是否 you want
to put a "neo" there or not.
76
218701
3227
03:54
But when I looked看著 at them,
77
222786
2333
但你去看這些人,
03:57
I didn't see any SS-likeSS-樣 uniforms制服,
78
225143
4726
他們不穿納粹親衛隊制服,
04:01
swastika-like卍狀 symbols符號 on the wall,
79
229893
3151
牆上也沒有卍字符號,
04:05
Sieg西格 Heil埃爾 salutes禮炮 --
80
233068
2057
不行納粹禮,
04:07
none沒有 of that.
81
235149
1544
一個都沒有。
04:08
What I found發現 instead代替
82
236717
2870
相反的,
04:11
were people parading遊行
as respectable可敬 academics學者.
83
239611
4615
他們裝成德高望重的學者。
04:16
What did they have?
84
244916
1221
還有呢?
04:18
They had an institute研究所.
85
246161
1698
他們有一間學院,
04:19
An "Institute研究所 for Historical歷史的 Review評論."
86
247883
3844
叫「歷史評論學院」。
04:24
They had a journal日誌 -- a slick華而不實的 journal日誌 --
87
252392
2554
還有一本很像樣的期刊,
04:26
a "Journal日誌 of Historical歷史的 Review評論."
88
254970
2954
「歷史評論期刊」。
04:30
One filled填充 with papers文件 --
89
258398
2706
裡面都是論文,
04:33
footnote-laden腳註載貨 papers文件.
90
261128
2044
充滿註腳的論文。
04:35
And they had a new name名稱.
91
263923
1940
而且他們有個新名字。
04:38
Not neo-Nazis新納粹,
92
266500
2168
不是新納粹,
04:40
not anti-Semites反猶主義 --
93
268692
2490
不是反猶太,
04:43
revisionists修正主義.
94
271206
1258
是「修正主義者」。
04:44
They said, "We are revisionists修正主義.
95
272991
2215
他們自稱「修正主義者」。
04:47
We are out to do one thing:
96
275230
2683
目標只有一個:
04:49
to revise修改 mistakes錯誤 in history歷史."
97
277937
3560
要修正歷史的謬誤。
04:54
But all you had to do was go
one inch英寸 below下面 the surface表面,
98
282369
5410
但如果你掀開他們的表面,
04:59
and what did you find there?
99
287803
1907
會看到什麼?
05:01
The same相同 adulation阿諛 of Hitler希特勒,
100
289734
2490
一樣的希特勒崇拜,
05:04
praise讚美 of the Third第三 Reich帝國,
101
292248
1875
對第三帝國的讚揚,
05:06
anti-Semitism反猶太主義, racism種族主義, prejudice偏見.
102
294147
2942
反猶太、種族主義、充滿偏見。
05:09
This is what intrigued好奇 me.
103
297904
2446
我感興趣的是這個:
05:12
It was anti-Semitism反猶太主義, racism種族主義, prejudice偏見,
parading遊行 as rational合理的 discourse演講.
104
300374
6997
反猶太、種族主義和偏見歧視,
披者理性論述的外衣。
05:20
The other thing I found發現 --
105
308730
1587
另一個發現是,
05:22
many許多 of us have been taught to think
there are facts事實 and there are opinions意見 --
106
310341
3745
有些話是事實,有些是意見,
05:26
after studying研究 deniers否認,
107
314110
1456
但研究過這些人之後,
05:27
I think differently不同.
108
315590
1336
我改觀了。
05:29
There are facts事實,
109
317438
1648
有些話是事實、
05:31
there are opinions意見,
110
319110
1714
有些話是意見、
05:32
and there are lies.
111
320848
1612
還有些是謊言。
05:35
And what deniers否認 want to do
is take their lies,
112
323149
4426
這些否認者想做的是把謊言,
05:40
dress連衣裙 them up as opinions意見 --
113
328565
1632
包裝成意見,
05:42
maybe edgy前衛 opinions意見,
114
330221
1990
好像很前衛的意見,
05:44
maybe sort分類 of out-of-the-box盒子外面 opinions意見 --
115
332235
2709
有點跳脫框架的意見,
一旦這被當成意見,
05:46
but then if they're opinions意見,
116
334968
1384
05:48
they should be part部分 of the conversation會話.
117
336376
2132
就會被納入討論。
05:50
And then they encroach侵犯 on the facts事實.
118
338532
3393
然後漸漸蓋過事實。
05:55
I published發表 my work --
119
343305
1563
我把研究出版成一本書,
05:56
the book was published發表,
120
344892
1174
05:58
"Denying否認 the Holocaust大屠殺: The Growing生長
Assault突擊 on Truth真相 and Memory記憶,"
121
346090
3402
書名是《否認大屠殺》。
06:01
it came來了 out in many許多 different不同 countries國家,
122
349516
1956
在很多國家發行,
06:03
including包含 here in Penguin企鵝 UK聯合王國,
123
351496
2160
包括英國這邊是企鵝出版。
06:05
and I was doneDONE with those folks鄉親
and ready準備 to move移動 on.
124
353680
3430
然後我就決定要做我的正事了。
06:10
Then came來了 the letter from Penguin企鵝 UK聯合王國.
125
358163
3708
這時企鵝出版寄了封信給我。
06:14
And for the third第三 time, I laughed笑了 ...
126
362434
2768
這是第三次我為此大笑......
06:19
mistakenly.
127
367088
1240
但這次不好笑了。
06:20
I opened打開 the letter,
128
368972
1730
我打開信,
06:22
and it informed通知 me that David大衛 Irving歐文
was bringing使 a libel誹謗 suit適合 against反對 me
129
370726
5888
信裡說大衛艾文要告我誹謗,
在英國這邊告。
06:28
in the United聯合的 Kingdom王國
130
376638
1597
06:30
for calling調用 him a Holocaust大屠殺 denier.
131
378259
3036
理由是稱他「大屠殺否認者」。
06:33
David大衛 Irving歐文 suing起訴 me?
132
381953
1934
大衛艾文要告我?
06:35
Who was David大衛 Irving歐文?
133
383911
1204
他是何許人也?
他是一位歷史作家,
06:37
David大衛 Irving歐文 was a writer作家
of historical歷史的 works作品,
134
385139
2607
06:39
most of them about World世界 War戰爭 IIII,
135
387770
2023
內容多是關於二戰,
06:41
and virtually實質上 all of those works作品
took the position位置
136
389817
3219
但他作品的立場全部都是,
06:45
that the Nazis納粹 were really not so bad,
137
393060
3578
納粹其實沒那麼壞、
06:48
and the allies盟國 were really not so good.
138
396662
3084
同盟國也沒那麼好。
06:51
And the Jews猶太人, whatever隨你 happened發生 to them,
139
399770
2105
猶太人,無論遭遇什麼事,
06:53
they sort分類 of deserved應得 it.
140
401899
1310
都是罪有應得。
06:56
He knew知道 the documents文件,
141
404206
1491
他當然知道歷史紀錄,
06:57
he knew知道 the facts事實,
142
405721
1443
他也知道事實,
06:59
but he somehow不知何故 twisted扭曲 them
to get this opinion意見.
143
407188
3172
但他就是想扭曲真相。
07:03
He hadn't有沒有 always been a Holocaust大屠殺 denier,
144
411016
2512
他不是一開始就否認大屠殺,
07:05
but in the late晚了 '80s,
145
413552
1741
但在八零年代晚期,
07:07
he embraced擁抱 it with great vigor活力.
146
415317
2427
他變成理論的擁護者。
07:11
The reason原因 I laughed笑了 also
was this was a man
147
419517
3905
我為此大笑也是因為,
07:15
who not only was a Holocaust大屠殺 denier,
148
423446
1934
他不只是大屠殺否認者,
07:17
but seemed似乎 quite相當 proud驕傲 of it.
149
425404
1695
他還以此為榮。
07:19
Here was a man -- and I quote引用 --
150
427123
1624
引用他的話,
07:20
who said, "I'm going to sink水槽
the battleship主力艦 Auschwitz奧斯威辛."
151
428771
3694
他說「我要戳破奧斯威辛的謊言。」
07:25
Here was a man
152
433345
1172
這個人,
07:26
who pointed to the number tattooed紋身
on a survivor's倖存者 arm and said,
153
434541
4020
會指著倖存者手臂的編號問,
07:31
"How much money have you made製作
154
439716
1592
「你刺一個號碼,
07:33
from having that number
tattooed紋身 on your arm?"
155
441332
3400
可以撈多少錢?」
07:37
Here was a man who said,
156
445549
1908
他還說,
07:39
"More people died死亡 in Senator參議員 Kennedy's肯尼迪 car汽車
157
447481
2956
「查帕奎迪克事件死的人,
07:42
at ChappaquiddickChappaquiddick
158
450461
1312
比集中營毒氣室
07:43
than died死亡 in gas加油站 chambers at Auschwitz奧斯威辛."
159
451797
3314
死的人還多。」
07:47
That's an American美國 reference參考,
but you can look it up.
160
455135
2837
這是美國梗,意思是毒氣室沒死人。
07:51
This was not a man who seemed似乎
at all ashamed羞愧 or reticent沉默的
161
459406
3014
這人絲毫不因為否認大屠殺,
感到羞愧或該低調。
07:54
about being存在 a Holocaust大屠殺 denier.
162
462444
2069
07:57
Now, lots of my academic學術的
colleagues同事 counseled勸告 me --
163
465136
3780
學術界很多朋友都跟我說,
08:00
"Eh, Deborah黛博拉, just ignore忽視 it."
164
468940
1906
「不要理他就好了。」
08:02
When I explained解釋 you can't just
ignore忽視 a libel誹謗 suit適合,
165
470870
3588
我就說誹謗案不能不理啊,
08:06
they said, "Who's誰是 going to
believe him anyway無論如何?"
166
474482
2782
他們說「誰會相信他?」
08:09
But here was the problem問題:
167
477783
2080
但問題就出在這:
08:11
British英國的 law put the onus責任,
put the burden負擔 of proof證明 on me
168
479887
5308
英國法律上我有舉證責任,
08:17
to prove證明 the truth真相 of what I said,
169
485219
2682
要證明我說的是真的。
08:19
in contrast對比 to as it would have
been in the United聯合的 States狀態
170
487925
2763
這點跟美國法律不同,
08:22
and in many許多 other countries國家:
171
490712
1504
或跟其他地方的法律比,
08:24
on him to prove證明 the falsehood謬誤.
172
492240
3006
應該是他要證明我是錯的。
08:27
What did that mean?
173
495921
1461
所以這意味什麼?
08:29
That meant意味著 if I didn't fight鬥爭,
174
497406
3376
如果我不跟他打官司,
08:32
he would win贏得 by default默認.
175
500806
2426
他就會直接勝訴。
08:35
And if he won韓元 by default默認,
176
503791
1755
如果他直接勝訴,
08:37
he could then legitimately合理地 say,
177
505570
2641
他就可以正當地說,
08:40
"My David大衛 Irving歐文 version of the Holocaust大屠殺
is a legitimate合法 version.
178
508235
5336
「我的猶太大屠殺版本才是對的。
08:45
Deborah黛博拉 Lipstadt利普斯塔特 was found發現
to have libeled誹謗 me
179
513595
2184
黛博拉利普斯塔特
08:47
when she called me a Holocaust大屠殺 denier.
180
515803
1947
對我的誹謗已經敗訴,
08:49
IpsoIPSO facto事實上, I, David大衛 Irving歐文,
am not a Holocaust大屠殺 denier."
181
517774
4428
就如之前我所說的,
我不是猶太大屠殺否認者。」
08:54
And what is that version?
182
522226
1712
他的大屠殺版本是怎樣?
08:56
There was no plan計劃 to murder謀殺 the Jews猶太人,
183
524431
2996
納粹沒有想要殺猶太人,
08:59
there were no gas加油站 chambers,
184
527451
2052
集中營沒有毒氣室,
09:01
there were no mass shootings槍擊事件,
185
529527
1856
沒有大規模槍決。
09:03
Hitler希特勒 had nothing to do
with any suffering痛苦 that went on,
186
531407
3171
希特勒和這些暴行沒有關係,
09:06
and the Jews猶太人 have made製作 this all up
187
534602
3805
猶太人捏造這些情節,
09:10
to get money from Germany德國
188
538431
2398
來撈德國的錢,
09:12
and to get a state,
189
540853
1707
去建立以色列,
09:14
and they've他們已經 doneDONE it with the aid援助
and abettanceabettance of the allies盟國 --
190
542584
3377
一切都是同盟國的陰謀,
09:17
they've他們已經 planted種植的 the documents文件
and planted種植的 the evidence證據.
191
545985
3465
他們植入記錄又安插證據。
09:22
I couldn't不能 let that stand
192
550460
2380
我不能接受這些說法,
09:24
and ever face面對 a survivor倖存者
193
552864
2200
也無顏面對倖存者,
09:27
or a child兒童 of survivors倖存者.
194
555823
1975
或是倖存者後代。
09:29
I couldn't不能 let that stand
195
557822
2152
我不能接受這些說法,
09:31
and consider考慮 myself
a responsible主管 historian歷史學家.
196
559998
4251
如果我自認是負責的歷史學者。
09:37
So we fought戰鬥.
197
565187
1745
所以我們迎戰。
09:38
And for those of you
who haven't沒有 seen看到 "Denial否認,"
198
566956
2282
如果你還沒看《修正》那部電影,
09:41
spoiler擾流板 alert警報:
199
569262
1159
我要爆雷:
09:42
we won韓元.
200
570445
1218
我們贏了。
09:43
(Laughter笑聲)
201
571687
1295
(笑聲)
09:45
(Applause掌聲)
202
573006
2567
(掌聲)
09:51
The judge法官 found發現 David大衛 Irving歐文
203
579988
4241
法官判決大衛艾文是一個
09:56
to be a liar說謊者,
204
584253
3331
騙徒、
09:59
a racist種族主義者,
205
587608
1163
種族主義者、
10:00
an anti-Semite反猶份子.
206
588795
1254
反猶太主義者。
10:02
His view視圖 of history歷史 was tendentious傾向性,
207
590073
2360
他的史觀是偏頗的,
10:04
he lied說謊, he distorted扭曲 --
208
592457
1926
他說謊、扭曲事實,
10:06
and most importantly重要的,
209
594407
2643
更重要的是,
10:09
he did it deliberately故意.
210
597074
2113
他是故意的。
10:11
We showed顯示 a pattern模式,
in over 25 different不同 major重大的 instances實例.
211
599211
4139
我們發現他 25 篇著作的模式。
這數量不小,
10:15
Not small things -- many許多 of us
in this audience聽眾 write books圖書,
212
603374
3110
在座很多人寫過書或正在寫書,
10:18
are writing寫作 books圖書;
213
606508
1185
我們會筆誤,所以才要刷二版,
10:19
we always make mistakes錯誤, that's why
we're glad高興 to have second第二 editions版本:
214
607717
3466
10:23
correct正確 the mistakes錯誤.
215
611207
1186
去訂正。
10:24
(Laughter笑聲)
216
612417
1150
(笑聲)
10:26
But these always moved移動
in the same相同 direction方向:
217
614634
3136
但他都是朝同一種方向改:
10:30
blame the Jews猶太人,
218
618618
2211
詆毀猶太人、
10:32
exonerate開脫 the Nazis納粹.
219
620853
2175
幫納粹洗白。
10:35
But how did we win贏得?
220
623700
1584
但我們是怎麼贏的?
10:38
What we did is follow跟隨 his footnotes腳註
back to his sources來源.
221
626196
5380
我們從他的註解去追史料。
10:44
And what did we find?
222
632190
1783
結果我們發現什麼?
10:45
Not in most cases,
223
633997
1479
他大部分的著作,
10:47
and not in the preponderance優勢 of cases,
224
635500
1968
還有比較受歡迎的著作,
10:49
but in every一切 single instance where
he made製作 some reference參考 to the Holocaust大屠殺,
225
637492
4311
每一篇提到大屠殺的參考資料,
10:53
that his supposed應該 evidence證據 was distorted扭曲,
226
641827
4242
史料都被扭曲過,
10:58
half-truth半真理,
227
646093
1420
半真半假、
10:59
date-changed日期變更,
228
647537
1334
修改日期、
11:00
sequence-changed序列改變,
229
648895
2187
改變順序、
11:03
someone有人 put at a meeting會議 who wasn't there.
230
651106
2124
某人出現在根本沒去的會議。
11:05
In other words,
he didn't have the evidence證據.
231
653254
2761
換句話說,他根本沒有證據。
11:08
His evidence證據 didn't prove證明 it.
232
656039
2109
他的史料不能佐證。
11:10
We didn't prove證明 what happened發生.
233
658172
2659
我們不需要證明發生過的事。
11:13
We proved證實 that what he said happened發生 --
234
661628
2499
我們只要證明他說的,
11:16
and by extension延期, all deniers否認,
because he either quotes報價 them
235
664151
2860
甚至其他否認者說,因為他會引用,
11:19
or they get their arguments參數 from him --
236
667035
2471
或是否認者也會引用他的話,
11:21
is not true真正.
237
669530
1246
不是真的。
11:22
What they claim要求 --
238
670800
1189
他們的說法,
11:24
they don't have the evidence證據 to prove證明 it.
239
672013
2622
並沒有證據可以支持。
11:28
So why is my story故事
more than just the story故事
240
676609
4744
所以為什麼我的故事,
不只是一個荒謬、長達六年
刁鑽訴訟的故事,
11:33
of a quirky詭詐的, long,
six-year六年, difficult lawsuit訴訟,
241
681377
3807
11:37
an American美國 professor教授
being存在 dragged into a courtroom法庭
242
685208
4989
也是一個美國教授被一個
11:42
by a man that the court法庭
declared聲明 in its judgment判斷
243
690221
3044
法院認證過的新納粹詭辯者
拖去法院訴訟的故事?
11:45
was a neo-Nazi新納粹 polemicist辯論家?
244
693289
2250
11:47
What message信息 does it have?
245
695563
1783
這故事有什麼意義?
11:49
I think in the context上下文
of the question of truth真相,
246
697800
2973
我想在追尋真相的脈絡下,
11:52
it has a very significant重大 message信息.
247
700797
2462
這隱含非常重要的訊息。
11:55
Because today今天,
248
703283
1785
因為今日,
11:57
as we well know,
249
705092
1666
如各位所知,
11:58
truth真相 and facts事實 are under assault突擊.
250
706782
4116
事實和真相面臨挑戰。
12:03
Social社會 media媒體, for all
the gifts禮品 it has given特定 us,
251
711702
3252
社群網站的確惠大眾良多,
12:06
has also allowed允許 the difference區別
between之間 facts事實 -- established既定 facts事實 --
252
714978
5581
也讓真相,眾所皆知的真相
和謊言之間的界線,
12:12
and lies
253
720583
1757
12:14
to be flattened扁平.
254
722364
1398
變得模糊。
12:16
Third第三 of all:
255
724990
1510
第三:
12:18
extremism極端主義.
256
726524
1471
極端主義。
12:20
You may可能 not see Ku Klux三K Klan三K黨 robes長袍,
257
728987
3577
你不會看見三 K 黨的長袍,
12:24
you may可能 not see burning燃燒 crosses十字架,
258
732588
2071
不會看見燃燒的十字架,
12:26
you may可能 not even hear outright公然
white白色 supremacist至上主義 language語言.
259
734683
4319
不會聽見右派白人至上主義言論。
12:31
It may可能 go by names: "alt-rightALT-權,"
"National國民 Front面前" -- pick your names.
260
739026
4906
而是「另類右派」、「國民陣線」,
這類的名字。
12:35
But underneath, it's that same相同 extremism極端主義
that I found發現 in Holocaust大屠殺 denial否認
261
743956
5835
但骨子裡是一樣的極端主義,
像否認大屠殺一樣,
用合理性偽裝成的言論。
12:41
parading遊行 as rational合理的 discourse演講.
262
749815
3394
12:47
We live生活 in an age年齡
where truth真相 is on the defensive防禦性.
263
755134
5217
我們居住在一個
真相處於挨打的時代。
12:52
I'm reminded提醒 of a New Yorker紐約客 cartoon動畫片.
264
760375
2484
我想到《紐約客》的一則漫畫。
12:54
A quiz測驗 show顯示 recently最近 appeared出現
in "The New Yorker紐約客"
265
762883
2520
最近漫畫裡有一個益智節目,
12:57
where the host主辦 of the quiz測驗 show顯示
is saying to one of the contestants參賽者,
266
765427
3222
節目主持人對參賽者說,
13:00
"Yes, ma'am夫人, you had the right answer回答.
267
768673
2309
「小姐,雖然你答對了,
13:03
But your opponent對手 yelled大叫
more loudly高聲 than you did,
268
771006
2493
但對手喊比較大聲,
13:05
so he gets得到 the point."
269
773523
1525
所以他得分。」
13:08
What can we do?
270
776228
1507
所以我們該怎麼辦?
13:10
First of all,
271
778557
1377
首先,
13:11
we cannot不能 be beguiled誘騙
by rational合理的 appearances出場.
272
779958
5431
不要被理性的外衣騙了。
13:17
We've我們已經 got to look underneath,
273
785413
1769
我們要看破表相,
13:19
and we will find there the extremism極端主義.
274
787206
2801
揪出隱藏的極端主義。
13:22
Second第二 of all,
275
790991
1986
第二,
13:25
we must必須 understand理解
that truth真相 is not relative相對的.
276
793001
6081
要了解真相是絕對,不是相對的。
13:33
Number three,
277
801137
1464
第三,
13:34
we must必須 go on the offensive進攻,
278
802625
3689
我們要反守為攻,
13:38
not the defensive防禦性.
279
806338
1773
不能一味挨打。
13:40
When someone有人 makes品牌 an outrageous蠻橫的 claim要求,
280
808676
2607
當有人發表荒謬言論,
13:43
even though雖然 they may可能 hold保持
one of the highest最高 offices辦事處 in the land土地,
281
811307
3504
就算他們可能位居高位,
13:46
if not the world世界 --
282
814835
2011
也許全球知名,
13:48
we must必須 say to them,
283
816870
1510
我們也要質問他,
13:50
"Where's哪裡 the proof證明?
284
818404
1966
「證據在哪裡?」
13:52
Where's哪裡 the evidence證據?"
285
820394
2137
「你拿什麼證明?」
13:54
We must必須 hold保持 their feet to the fire.
286
822555
2927
不能輕易放過他們。
13:57
We must必須 not treat對待 it as if their lies
are the same相同 as the facts事實.
287
825506
4606
謊言跟真相絕對不能一視同仁。
14:03
And as I said earlier,
truth真相 is not relative相對的.
288
831395
3540
就像我說的,真相不是相對的。
14:06
Many許多 of us have grown長大的 up
in the world世界 of the academy學院
289
834959
2856
很多人都跟著學術、
14:09
and enlightened開明 liberal自由主義的 thought,
290
837839
1741
自由、啟發的思想長大,
14:11
where we're taught
everything is open打開 to debate辯論.
291
839604
2961
認為什麼事都可以討論。
14:15
But that's not the case案件.
292
843164
2014
但這種事例外。
14:17
There are certain某些 things that are true真正.
293
845202
3442
有些事就是真理。
14:21
There are indisputable facts事實 --
294
849192
3020
有些事實不容質疑,
14:24
objective目的 truths真理.
295
852236
1690
是客觀的真相。
14:26
Galileo伽利略 taught it to us centuries百年 ago.
296
854519
4817
伽利略幾世紀前就說了。
14:31
Even after being存在 forced被迫
to recant宣布放棄 by the Vatican教廷
297
859360
4667
就算教廷逼他認錯,
14:36
that the Earth地球 moved移動 around the Sun太陽,
298
864051
2573
說地球不是繞著太陽轉。
他步出宗教法庭,
14:38
he came來了 out,
299
866648
1154
記載說他講了什麼?
14:39
and what is he reported報導 to have said?
300
867826
2310
14:42
"And yet然而, it still moves移動."
301
870160
3822
「可是,地球依然繞著太陽轉。」
14:47
The Earth地球 is not flat平面.
302
875342
2840
地球不是平的。
14:50
The climate氣候 is changing改變.
303
878206
2290
氣候正在變遷。
14:53
Elvis貓王 is not alive.
304
881387
2268
貓王已經死了。
14:55
(Laughter笑聲)
305
883679
1535
(笑聲)
14:57
(Applause掌聲)
306
885238
2316
(掌聲)
14:59
And most importantly重要的,
307
887578
2301
更重要的是,
15:01
truth真相 and fact事實 are under assault突擊.
308
889903
4649
真相和事實備受挑戰。
15:07
The job工作 ahead of us,
309
895289
1610
我們眼前的工作、
15:08
the task任務 ahead of us,
310
896923
1203
眼前的任務、
15:10
the challenge挑戰 ahead of us
311
898150
1594
眼前的挑戰,
15:11
is great.
312
899768
1234
太大了。
15:13
The time to fight鬥爭 is short.
313
901747
2637
沒時間浪費。
15:17
We must必須 act法案 now.
314
905241
2843
我們要馬上行動。
15:20
Later後來 will be too late晚了.
315
908929
3245
再遲就來不及了。
15:24
Thank you very much.
316
912198
1262
謝謝。
15:25
(Applause掌聲)
317
913484
4046
(掌聲)
Translated by Aaron Shoo
Reviewed by Yi-Fan Yu

▲Back to top

ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Deborah Lipstadt - Historian
Deborah Lipstadt's research focuses on the development of Holocaust denial and how to fight for the truth in an era marked by "alternative facts."

Why you should listen

Dr. Deborah E. Lipstadt, Dorot professor of Holocaust Studies at Emory University in Atlanta, was sued for libel in 1996 by David Irving for having called him a Holocaust denier. After a ten-week trial in London in 2000, in an overwhelming victory for Lipstadt, the judge found Irving to be a "neo-Nazi polemicist" who "perverts" history and engages in "racist" and "anti-Semitic" discourse. The Daily Telegraph (London) described the trial as having "done for the new century what the Nuremberg tribunals or the Eichmann trial did for earlier generations." The Times (London) described it as "history has had its day in court and scored a crushing victory." According to the New York Times, the trial "put an end to the pretense that Mr. Irving is anything but a self-promoting apologist for Hitler."

The movie Denial, starring Rachel Weisz and Tom Wilkenson with a screenplay by David Hare, tells the story of this legal battle.  It is based on Lipstadt's book, History on Trial: My Day in Court with a Holocaust Denier (Harper Collins, 2006), and recently reissued as Denial (Harper Collins, 2016). The film was nominated for a BAFTA as one of the best British films of the year.

Lipstadt has written most recently Holocaust: An American Understanding (Rutgers, 2016), which explores how America has understood and interpreted the Holocaust since 1945.

Her previous book, The Eichmann Trial, (Schocken/Nextbook, 2011) published in commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the Eichmann trial, was called by Publisher's Weekly, "a penetrating and authoritative dissection of a landmark case and its after effects." The New York Times Book Review described Lipstadt as having "done a great service by … recovering the event as a gripping legal drama, as well as a hinge moment in Israel's history and in the world's delayed awakening to the magnitude of the Holocaust."

She has also published Beyond Belief: The American Press And The Coming Of The Holocaust, 1933-1945 (Free Press, 1986), which surveys what the American press wrote about the persecution of the Jews in the years 1933-1945.  She is currently writing a book, The Antisemitic Delusion: Letters to a Concerned Student which will be published in 2018.

At Emory, Lipstadt directs the website known as HDOT, Holocaust Denial on Trial, which contains a complete archive of the proceedings of Irving v. Penguin UK and Deborah Lipstadt. It also provides answers to frequent claims made by deniers. Lipstadt has won the Emery Williams Teaching Award, and she was selected for the award by alumni as the teacher who had most influenced them.

Lipstadt was a historical consultant to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, helping design the section of the Museum dedicated to the American Response to the Holocaust. She has held a Presidential appointment to the United States Holocaust Memorial Council (from Presidents Clinton and Obama) and was asked by President George W. Bush to represent the White House at the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.

Lipstadt has a BA from the City College of New York and an MA and PhD from Brandeis University.

More profile about the speaker
Deborah Lipstadt | Speaker | TED.com