TEDIndia 2009
His Holiness the Karmapa: The technology of the heart
大寶法王噶瑪巴：心的科技
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大寶法王噶瑪巴在演説中談到他被發現並認定是藏系佛教上師轉世的過程。在說他的故事的同時，他也驅策我們不止在科技和（工業）設計上努力，也要為心的科技和設計來努力。他的演説由 Tyler Dewar 現場翻譯。
His Holiness the Karmapa - Spiritual leader
Ogyen Trinley Dorje is the 17th Gyalwang Karmapa, a revered figure in Tibetan Buddhism devoted to preserving and propagating Buddhist teachings. Full bio
Ogyen Trinley Dorje is the 17th Gyalwang Karmapa, a revered figure in Tibetan Buddhism devoted to preserving and propagating Buddhist teachings. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:30
Tyler Dewar: The way I feel right now
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我現在的感覺是，
00:32
is that all of the other speakers
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其他的演説者
00:34
have said exactly what I wanted to say.
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已經把我想說的都說完了。
00:36
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
00:38
And it seems that the only thing left for me to say
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現在看起來，唯一要補充的是，
00:41
is to thank you all for your kindness.
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謝謝大家對我的親切。
00:58
TD: But maybe in the spirit
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為了感謝大家
01:00
of appreciating the kindness of you all,
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對我的親切及好意，
01:02
I could share with you
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我想跟大家分享
01:04
a little story about myself.
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關於我的一個小故事。
01:50
TD: From the time I was very young, onward,
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從很年輕的時候開始，
01:53
I was given
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我就被賜予了
01:55
a lot of different responsibilities,
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很多的責任。
01:57
and it always seemed to me, when I was young,
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在我年輕的時候，我總覺得
02:00
that everything was laid out before me.
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所有的事別人都替我決定好了，
02:02
All of the plans for me were already made.
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我所有的計劃都有人訂好了，
02:05
I was given the clothes that I needed to wear
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我穿的衣服也都有人準備好，
02:07
and told where I needed to be,
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並告訴我該出席什麽場合；
02:09
given these very precious
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而為了出席這些場合，
02:11
and holy looking robes to wear,
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也有人為我準備珍貴莊嚴的法袍，
02:14
with the understanding
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我當然很清楚，
02:16
that it was something sacred or important.
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那是十分神聖和莊重的事。
03:07
TD: But before that kind of formal lifestyle happened for me,
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但是在那種正式的生活型態以前，
03:11
I was living in eastern Tibet with my family.
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我跟我的家人住在西藏東部，
03:14
And when I was seven years old,
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那時我只有七歲。
03:17
all of a sudden,
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突然間，
03:19
a search party arrived at my home.
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有一隊搜索人馬來到我家，
03:21
They were looking the next Karmapa,
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他們在找下一世的大寶法王噶瑪巴。
03:24
and I noticed they were talking to my mom and dad,
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我看到他們在和我爸媽說話，
03:27
and the news came to me that they were telling me
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之後他們進來告訴我這個消息，
03:30
that I was the Karmapa.
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說我就是大寶法王噶瑪巴。
03:32
And these days, people ask me a lot,
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一直以來，常常有人問到，
03:34
how did that feel.
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我當初的感覺怎麽樣。
03:36
How did that feel when they came and whisked you away,
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“當他們進來匆匆把你帶走，並完全改變了你的生活，
03:38
and your lifestyle completely changed?
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你覺得怎麽樣？”
03:40
And what I mostly say is that,
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我的回答大部分是：
03:42
at that time,
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剛開始的時候，
03:44
it was a pretty interesting idea to me.
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我覺得挺有趣的。
03:47
I thought that things would be pretty fun
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我以爲一切會變得很好玩，
03:49
and there would be more things to play with.
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也會有很多東西可以玩。
03:52
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
04:56
TD: But it didn't turn out to be so fun and entertaining,
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結果事情變得沒有我想像中
04:59
as I thought it would have been.
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那麽有趣和好玩。
05:01
I was placed
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我被安置在
05:03
in a pretty strictly controlled environment.
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一個高度管制的環境裏，
05:06
And immediately,
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很快地，
05:08
a lot of different responsibilities,
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有很多責任--
05:10
in terms of my education and so forth, were heaped upon me.
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像我該受的教育等，接踵而來。
05:13
I was separated, largely, from my family,
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大部分的時間，我是和家人隔離的，
05:15
including my mother and father.
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我無法見我的父母，
05:17
I didn't have have many personal friends
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我沒有自己的朋友，
05:19
to spend time with,
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沒人能陪伴我，
05:21
but I was expected to perform
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大家期望我獨自一個人去
05:23
these prescribed duties.
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承擔這些任務。
05:25
So it turned out that my fantasy
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所以，我想像中的
05:28
about an entertaining life of being the Karmapa
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大寶法王噶瑪巴有趣的生活，
05:30
wasn't going to come true.
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是不會發生的了。
05:32
It more felt to be the case to me
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我覺得那時
05:34
that I was being treated like a statue,
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周圍的人把我當成一尊雕像，
05:37
and I was to sit in one place
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我必須在安排的時間地點裏，
05:40
like a statue would.
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像個雕像般坐在那兒。
06:31
TD: Nevertheless, I felt that,
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然而，我覺得，
06:33
even though I've been separated from my loved ones --
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雖然那時我無法見我的親友－－
06:36
and, of course, now I'm even further away.
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當然我現在又離他們更遠了。
06:39
When I was 14, I escaped from Tibet
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當我十四歲逃離西藏後，
06:41
and became even further removed
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又更遠離
06:43
from my mother and father,
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我的父母、
06:45
my relatives, my friends
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我的親戚、朋友、
06:47
and my homeland.
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和我的故鄉。
06:49
But nevertheless,
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然而，
06:51
there's no real sense of separation from me in my heart,
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在我的心中，我對他們的愛，
06:54
in terms of the love that I feel
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並沒有因爲距離
06:57
for these people.
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而有所間斷。
06:59
I feel, still, a very strong connection of love
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我仍然覺得和這些人之間，
07:02
for all of these people
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有很強烈的愛的連繫，
07:04
and for the land.
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包括對西藏也是。
07:32
TD: And I still do
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我仍然
07:34
get to keep in touch with my mother and father,
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跟我的父母有聯絡，
07:36
albeit infrequently.
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雖然不是很頻繁。
07:38
I talk to my mother
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我跟我母親，
07:40
once in a blue moon on the telephone.
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很久很久才通一次電話。
07:42
And my experience is that,
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我的經驗是，
07:44
when I'm talking to her,
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每當我跟她通話的時候，
07:46
with every second that passes
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儘管通話時間
07:48
during our conversation,
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一分一秒的過去，
07:50
the feeling of love that binds us
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我們之間的愛，
07:53
is bringing us closer and closer together.
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卻把我們更緊密地聯繫在一起。
09:08
TD: So those were just a few remarks
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所以，這是我個人背景故事的
09:10
about my personal background.
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一些說明。
09:12
And in terms of other things that I wanted to share with you,
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至於，我想跟你們分享的，
09:15
in terms of ideas,
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是一些看法。
09:17
I think it's wonderful to have a situation like this,
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我認爲能有像今天這樣的場合是好的，
09:20
where so many people from different backgrounds and places
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能有這麽多來自不同地方不同地方背景的人
09:23
can come together,
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聚集在這裡，
09:25
exchange their ideas
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來交換意見想法、
09:27
and form relationships of friendship with each other.
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來建立友誼和關係。
09:30
And I think that's symbolic
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而這也正象徵著
09:32
of what we're seeing in the world in general,
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我們住的真實世界裏的情景，
09:34
that the world is becoming smaller and smaller,
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隨著這世界越變越小，
09:36
and that all of the peoples in the world
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所有的人們，
09:39
are enjoying more opportunities for connection.
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也能有更多的機會互相建立關係，
09:43
That's wonderful,
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這真是一件美好的事。
09:45
but we should also remember
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但我們也該記得，
09:47
that we should have a similar process happening on the inside.
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要讓相同的過程在内心裏發生。
09:50
Along with outward development
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隨著外在的發展
09:52
and increase of opportunity,
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和逐漸增加的機會，
09:54
there should be inward development
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也該有對應的内在的發展，
09:57
and deepening of our heart connections
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使我們的心靈能更緊密地連結在一起，
10:00
as well as our outward connections.
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如同外在的連結一樣。
10:04
So we spoke and we heard some
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在這個星期裏，
10:06
about design this week.
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我們聼到了有關設計的演説，
10:08
I think that it's important for us to remember
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我認爲我們應該要記得，
10:10
that we need
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我們需要
10:12
to keep pushing forward
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不斷地向前
10:14
on the endeavor
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努力地追求
10:16
of the design of the heart.
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心的設計。
10:18
We heard a lot about technology this week,
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我們也聽到了很多有關科技的演講，
10:20
and it's important for us to remember
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同時我們也必須切記，
10:22
to invest a lot of our energy
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把我們的精力
10:25
in improving the technology of the heart.
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用在改進心的科技。
10:47
TD: So, even though I'm somewhat happy
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所以雖然在某個程度上，
10:49
about the wonderful developments that are happening in the world,
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我對世間這些發展感到高興，
10:52
still, I feel a sense of impediment,
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但是在另一方面，
10:55
when it comes
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我還覺得有所欠缺，
10:57
to the ability that we have
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那就是我們
10:59
to connect with each other on a heart-to-heart, or a mind-to-mind, level.
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與其他人做心對心、或精神上連繫的能力上還有所不足。
11:02
I feel that there are some things
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我覺得在這方面，
11:05
that are getting in the way.
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還有一些障礙存在。
11:43
TC: My relationship
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我和這種“心對心”、
11:45
to this concept of heart-to-heart connection, or mind-to-mind connection,
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”精神層面上的連繫“的關係，
11:48
is an interesting one,
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是挺耐人尋味的，
11:50
because, as a spiritual leader, I'm always attempting
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因爲，身為一個精神領袖，
11:52
to open my heart to others
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我常會不由自主地
11:54
and offer myself up
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對他人敞開心胸、奉獻自我、
11:56
for heart-to-heart and mind-to-mind connections
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誠心誠意地對待他人，
11:58
in a genuine way with other people,
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以便建立這種心對心的連繫。
12:00
but at the same time,
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但在同時，
12:02
I've always been advised
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別人也常告訴我，
12:04
that I need to emphasize intelligence
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我應該強調理智，
12:06
over the heart-to-heart connections,
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甚於強調心靈的連接；
12:08
because, being someone in a position like mine,
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因爲，身在我這個位子的人，
12:12
if I don't rely primarily on intelligence,
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如果不依賴理智去思考，
12:15
then something dangerous may happen to me.
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便有可能發生危險的事。
12:19
So it's an interesting paradox at play there.
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所以我常面對著這種兩難的局面。
12:25
But I had a really striking experience once,
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但是有一次我有一個有趣的經驗，
12:28
when a group from Afghanistan
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有一群人從阿富汗
12:30
came to visit me,
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來拜訪我，
12:32
and we had a really interesting conversation.
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我們進行了一段很有趣的對話。
14:10
TD: So we ended up talking about the Bamiyan Buddhas,
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我們最後談到了巴米揚大佛，
14:13
which, as you know,
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如同衆人所知，
14:15
were destroyed some years ago in Afghanistan.
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巴米揚大佛幾年前被炸毀了。
14:19
But the basis of our conversation
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但是我們談話的主題，
14:21
was the different approach to spirituality
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是回教世界
14:23
on the part of the Muslim
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和佛教世界
14:25
and Buddhist traditions.
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對靈性不同的看法。
14:27
Of course, in Muslim,
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當然，對回教徒而言，
14:29
because of the teachings around the concept of idolatry,
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任何形式的偶像崇拜都是被禁止的，
14:32
you don't find as many
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所以你看不到
14:34
physical representations of divinity
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像佛教傳統裏那麽多的
14:36
or of spiritual liberation
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神佛雕像或
14:38
as you do in the Buddhist tradition,
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象徵心靈崇拜的實體。
14:40
where, of course, there are many statues of the Buddha
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在佛教傳統裏，當然，
14:43
that are highly revered.
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佛的雕像是被尊重的。
14:48
So, we were talking about the differences
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所以，我們談論的是
14:50
between the traditions
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不同傳統的差異。
14:52
and what many people perceived
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在很多人的眼裏，
14:54
as the tragedy of the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas,
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巴米揚大佛被摧毀是一件大悲劇，
14:57
but I offered the suggestion
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但我提出以下的建議，
14:59
that perhaps we could look at this in a positive way.
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或許我們能夠用更正向的角度來看待這件事。
15:03
What we saw in the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas
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我們在巴米揚大佛被摧毀的事件裏，
15:10
was the depletion of matter,
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看到的是一個實體的耗損，
15:13
some solid substance
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一些堅固物質的
15:15
falling down and disintegrating.
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崩裂和瓦解。
15:17
Maybe we could look at that to be more similar
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我們也可以想想類似的事件：
15:19
to the falling of the Berlin Wall,
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柏林圍牆的瓦解。
15:21
where a divide
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一度隔絕兩個社會的
15:23
that had kept two types of people apart
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高牆倒下了，
15:26
had collapsed and opened up a door
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一道新的門卻打開了，
15:28
for further communication.
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讓進一步的溝通變得可能。
15:30
So I think that, in this way,
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所以我覺得，以這樣的角度去看，
15:32
it's always possible for us
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我們總是可以從任何事情裡，
15:34
to derive something positive
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學習到正向的經驗，
15:37
that can help us understand one another better.
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讓我們更能了解對方。
16:20
TD: So, with regard to the development
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關於發展，
16:22
that we've been talking about
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我們在這個研討會裏
16:24
here at this conference,
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談了很多的發展，
16:26
I really feel
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我真的覺得，
16:28
that the development that we make
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任何新的發展，
16:31
shouldn't create a further burden
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都不該為人類
16:33
for us as human beings,
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帶來新的負擔，
16:35
but should be used
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而是該用來
16:37
to improve
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來改進
16:40
our fundamental lifestyle
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我們基本的生活形態，
16:42
of how we live in the world.
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或是我們生活的方式。
18:16
TD: Of course, I rejoice
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當然，關於印度的發展、
18:18
in the development and the growth and the rise
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成長崛起、成爲一個偉大的國家，
18:21
of the noble land of India, the great country of India,
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我也很替你們感到高興。
18:24
but at the same time, I think,
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但在同時，
18:26
as some of us have acknowledged,
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很多人也注意到了，
18:29
we need to be aware
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我覺得我們必須瞭解，
18:31
that some aspects of this rise
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成長背後
18:34
are coming at the cost
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所付出的代價，
18:37
of the very ground
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可能會傷害
18:39
on which we stand.
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我們賴以爲生的這塊土地。
18:41
So, as we are climbing the tree,
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正如同爬一棵樹，
18:44
some of the things that we're doing
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我們為了要爬上樹梢
18:46
in order to climb the tree
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所做的某些事，
18:48
are actually undermining
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事實上會對這棵樹的樹根
18:50
the tree's very root.
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造成傷害。
18:52
And so,
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所以我認爲，
18:54
what I think it comes down to
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追根究底地來説，
18:56
is a question of, not only having information of what's going on,
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我們不止要去擁有最新的資訊，
19:00
but paying attention to that
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還要真的去注意背後的訊息，
19:03
and letting that shift our motivation
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由此來改變我們的動機，
19:06
to become more sincere
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讓它變得更真誠、
19:09
and genuinely positive.
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也更正向。
19:13
We have hear, this week,
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例如說，在這個禮拜的一個演講裏，
19:15
about the horrible sufferings, for example,
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我們聼到了一個駭人聽聞的故事，
19:19
that so many women of the world
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內容是說每天都有很多的婦女，
19:22
are enduring day-to-day.
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日復一日地忍受著折磨。
19:24
We have that information,
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我們知道了這個資訊，
19:26
but what often happens to us
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但是最常見的結果是，
19:28
is that we don't really choose to pay attention to it.
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我們選擇不去注意這個資訊。
19:31
We don't really choose to allow that
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之所以選擇不去注意，
19:33
to cause there to be a shift in our hearts.
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是因爲我們不想為此而心情受影響。
19:36
So I think the way forward for the world --
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所以我認爲，世界進步的方向，
19:38
one that will bring the path of outer development
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不止是要讓外在的發展
19:42
in harmony
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和快樂的根源
19:47
with the real root of happiness --
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同步協調，
19:50
is that we allow
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還要讓
19:52
the information that we have
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我們擁有的資訊，
19:54
to really make a change in our heart.
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真正地改變我們的内心。
20:45
TD: So I think that sincere motivation
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所以我認爲，真心的動機
20:47
is very important for our future well-being,
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對我們未來的福址
20:50
or deep sense of well-being as humans,
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或是人類深切的幸福感是十分重要的，
20:53
and I think that means sinking in
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真心的動機是全新投入
20:56
to whatever it is you're doing now.
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在你現在在做的事。
20:58
Whatever work you're trying to do now to benefit the world,
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不管你現在在做什麽有利於全世界的事，
21:00
sink into that,
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儘管去做，
21:02
get a full taste of that.
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讓你有深刻的體驗。
21:40
TD: So, since we've been here this week,
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這一個禮拜來，我們都在這裡，
21:42
we've taken millions of breaths, collectively,
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我們一起做了幾百萬次的呼吸；
21:47
and perhaps we haven't witnessed
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雖然到現在，
21:49
any course changes
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還沒看到任何
21:51
happening in our lives,
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發生在我們生命裏的改變，
21:53
but we often miss the very subtle changes.
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但是我們常常看不出細微的改變。
21:56
And I think
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我也認爲，
21:59
that sometimes we develop
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有時候我們會去
22:01
grand concepts
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勾勒一大堆
22:03
of what happiness
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我們認爲的
22:05
might look like for us,
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“幸福”的模樣，
22:07
but that, if we pay attention,
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但是，如果我們注意去看、去體會，
22:09
we can see that there are little symbols of happiness
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就會發現，在我們每一次的呼氣吸氣中，
22:12
in every breath that we take.
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也都有小小的幸福徵兆呢。
23:21
TD: So, every one of you who has come here
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今天來到這裡的每個人，
23:24
is so talented,
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都是很有才能的，
23:26
and you have so much to offer to the world,
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你們能對這世界作出很多貢獻。
23:30
I think it would be a good note to conclude on then
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在結束我的演説以前，
23:34
to just take a moment
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我想花一些時間來
23:37
to appreciate how fortunate we are
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感激這個因緣，
23:39
to have come together in this way and exchanged ideas
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我們很幸運能來這裡互相交換意見，
23:42
and really form a strong aspiration
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並在我們的心裏
23:44
and energy within ourselves
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產生很強的靈感和能量，
23:46
that we will take the good
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我們也會將這研討會内
23:48
that has come from this conference,
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產生的好的結果、
23:50
the momentum, the positivity,
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好的動量、正向的事，
23:53
and we will spread that and plant it
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散播出去；在世界的各個角落，
23:55
in all of the corners of the world.
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種下正向的因。
24:18
His Holiness the Karmapa: Tomorrow is my Talk.
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大寶法王噶瑪巴：明天是我的演講。
24:32
TD: Lakshmi has worked incredibly hard,
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Lakshmi 很努力地做了很多事，
24:35
even in inviting me,
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包括邀請了我，
24:37
let alone everything else that she has done
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還在背後做了很多的準備，
24:39
to make this happen,
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才能讓這一切發生。
24:41
and I was somewhat resistant at times,
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一開始的時候我還有些抗拒，
24:44
and I was also very nervous throughout this week.
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這一個禮拜以來，我也一直都很緊張，
24:47
I was feeling under the weather and dizzy and so forth,
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我覺得身體不適、頭暈等等的。
24:50
and people would ask me, why.
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大家問我是怎麽了，
24:52
I would tell them, "It's because I have to talk tomorrow."
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我都說“因爲明天我要演講”。
24:57
And so Lakshmi had to put up with me through all of that,
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Lakshmi 也一直在容忍我，
25:00
but I very much appreciate
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但是我很感激
25:02
the opportunity she's given me
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她給了我這個機會，
25:04
to be here.
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來這裡演講。
25:06
And to you, everyone, thank you very much.
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謝謝每個人，很感謝。
25:09
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
25:12
HH: Thank you very much.
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大寶法王噶瑪巴：謝謝大家。
25:14
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
His Holiness the Karmapa - Spiritual leaderOgyen Trinley Dorje is the 17th Gyalwang Karmapa, a revered figure in Tibetan Buddhism devoted to preserving and propagating Buddhist teachings.
Why you should listen
The name "Karmapa" means "the one who carries out Buddha-activity," and for seventeen lifetimes, a karmapa has embodied the teachings of Buddha in tibet. The 17th Gyalwang Karmapa, Ogyen Trinley Dorje, was born a nomad in Tibet in 1985 and recognized by the Dalai Lama in 1992 as the 17th Karmapa. The young boy was brought to the Tsurphu monastery to live and study for his life as a spiritual teacher and activist.
At age 14, he made a daring flight from Tibet, and now works from a temporary camp in Dharamsala, near his friend the Dalai Lama. (After the Dalai Lama, he's seen as Tibetan Buddhism's second-highest-ranking spiritual leader, though the two men lead different schools within the faith.) In 2008, he made a long visit to the United States, where he spoke and taught at Buddhist centers around the country. And in 2009 he toured Europe, speaking about faith -- but also about protecting the environment.
His Holiness the Karmapa | Speaker | TED.com