TED2008
Joshua Klein: A thought experiment on the intelligence of crows
Joshua Klein om kragers intelligens
Filmed:
Readability: 3.2
2,645,444 views
Hacker og forfatter Joshua Klein er fascineret af krager (har du nogensinde set glimtet af intelligens i deres små, sorte øjne?) Efter et amatørstudie af corvid adfærd, har han fundet på en elegant lille maskine der kan danne bånd mellem dyr og mennesker.
Joshua Klein - Hacker
Joshua Klein is a fervent hacker of all things, including wet, pulpy systems like animals and people and the way they behave. Full bio
Joshua Klein is a fervent hacker of all things, including wet, pulpy systems like animals and people and the way they behave. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:18
How many of you have seen the Alfred Hitchcock film "The Birds"?
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Hvor mange af jer har set Alfred Hitchcock filmen "Fuglene"?
00:21
Any of you get really freaked out by that?
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Er der nogen af jer der blev skræmt af den?
00:24
You might want to leave now.
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Så bør I nok gå nu.
00:26
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
00:27
So, this is a vending machine for crows.
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Så, dette er en automat til krager.
00:29
And over the past few days, many of you have been asking me,
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Og i løbet af de sidste par dage, har mange af jer spurgt mig,
00:31
"How did you come to this? How did you get started doing this?"
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"Hvordan fandt du på dette? Hvordan begyndte du på dette?"
00:34
And it started, as with many great ideas,
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Og det begyndte, ligesom mange gode ideer,
00:36
or many ideas you can't get rid of anyway,
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eller i hvert fald mange ideer man ikke kan komme af med,
00:38
at a cocktail party.
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ved en fest.
00:39
About 10 years ago, I was at a cocktail party with a friend of mine,
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For cirka 10 år siden, var jeg til en fest med en af mine venner,
00:42
and we're sitting there, and he was complaining about the crows
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og vi sidder der, og han brokkede sig over kragerne
00:44
that he had seen that were all over his yard and making a big mess.
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som han havde set lave rod i hele sin have.
00:48
And he was telling me that really, we ought to try and eradicate these things.
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Og han fortalte mig at vi virkelig burde prøve at udrydde disse tingester.
00:50
We gotta kill them because they're making a mess.
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Vi bliver nød til at dræbe dem fordi de roder.
00:52
I said that was stupid,
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Jeg sagde det var dumt,
00:53
you know, maybe we should just train them to do something useful.
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I ved, måske skulle vi bare træne dem til at gøre noget nyttigt.
00:55
And he said that was impossible.
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Og han sagde at det var umuligt.
00:58
And I'm sure I'm in good company in finding that tremendously annoying
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Og jeg er sikker på at jeg er i godt selskab, når jeg synes det er enormt irriterende
01:01
-- when someone tells you it's impossible.
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-- når nogen fortæller en at det er umuligt.
01:02
So, I spent the next 10 years reading about crows in my spare time.
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Så, jeg brugte de næste 10 år på at læse om krager i min fritid.
01:06
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
01:09
And after 10 years of this, my wife eventually said,
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Og efter 10 år med dette, sagde min kone til sidst,
01:11
"Look, you know, you gotta do this thing
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"Se, du ved, du må gøre denne ting
01:13
you've been talking about, and build the vending machine."
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du har snakket om, og bygge den automat."
01:15
So I did.
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Så det gjorde jeg.
01:16
But part of the reason that I found this interesting
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Men en del af grunden til at jeg fandt dette interessant
01:18
is that I started noticing that we are
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er at jeg begyndte at lægge mærke til at vi er
01:20
very aware of all the species that are going
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meget klar over at alle arterne der bliver
01:22
extinct on the planet as a result of human habitation expansion,
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udryddet på jorden som resultat af menneskets habitat udvidelse
01:24
and no one seems to be paying attention
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og det ser ud til at der ikke er nogen der lægger mærke til
01:27
to all the species that are actually living -- that are surviving.
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alle arterne der faktisk lever -- der overlever.
01:30
And I'm talking specifically about synanthropic species,
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Og jeg snakker specifikt om synantropiske arter,
01:33
which are species that have adapted specifically for human ecologies,
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som er arter der har tilpasset sig specifikt til den menneskelige økologi,
01:36
species like rats and cockroaches and crows.
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arter som rotter og kakerlakker og krager.
01:40
And as I started looking at them, I was finding that they had hyper-adapted.
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Og i takt med at jeg begyndte at kigge på dem, fandt jeg ud af at de havde tilpasset sig i ekstrem grad.
01:43
They'd become extremely adept at living with us.
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De var blevet utrolig dygtige til at bo sammen med os.
01:46
And in return, we just tried to kill them all the time.
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Og til gengæld, prøvede vi bare på at dræbe dem hele tiden.
01:50
And in doing so, we were breeding them for parasitism.
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Og ved at gøre det, opdrættede vi dem til at være parasitter.
01:52
We were giving them all sorts of reasons to adapt new ways.
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Vi gav dem alle mulige grunde til at tilpasse sig på nye måder.
01:56
So, for example, rats are incredibly responsive breeders.
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Så, for eksempel, er rotter utrolig modtagelige avlere.
01:59
And cockroaches, as anyone who's tried to get rid of them knows,
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Og kakerlakker, som alle der har prøvet at komme af med dem ved,
02:02
have become really immune to the poisons that we're using.
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er blevet utrolig immune overfor de gifte som vi bruger.
02:05
So, I thought, let's build something that's mutually beneficial.
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Så, jeg tænkte, lad os bygge noget der er gavnligt for begge parter.
02:08
Well, then let's build something that we can both benefit from,
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Jamen, så lad os bygge noget som vi begge kan nyde godt af,
02:10
and find some way to make a new relationship with these species.
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og finde på en måde at lave nye forbindelser med denne art.
02:13
And so I built the vending machine.
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Så jeg byggede automaten.
02:16
But the story of the vending machine is a little more interesting
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Men historien om automaten er lidt mere interessant
02:18
if you know more about crows.
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hvis man ved mere om krager.
02:20
It turns out that crows aren't just surviving with human beings --
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Det viser sig at krager ikke kun overlever med mennesker --
02:22
they're actually really thriving.
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de trives faktisk.
02:24
They're found everywhere on the planet except for the Arctic
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De findes overalt på planeten på nær Arktisk
02:26
and the southern tip of South America.
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og det sydlige Sydamerika.
02:28
And in all that area, they're only rarely found
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Og i alle de områder, er det sjældent
02:31
breeding more than five kilometers away from human beings.
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at de formerer sig mere end fem kilometer væk fra mennesker.
02:33
So we may not think about them,
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Så vi tænker måske ikke på dem,
02:35
but they're always around.
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men de er altid i nærheden.
02:37
And not surprisingly, given the human population growth,
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Og ikke overraskende, set i lyset af befolkningstilvæksten,
02:39
more than half of the human population is living in cities now.
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lever mere end halvdelen af jordens befolkning i byer nu.
02:42
And out of those, nine-tenths
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Og ud af dem, sker ni tiendedele
02:44
of the human growth population is occurring in cities.
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af menneskets befolkningstilvæksten i byer.
02:46
We're seeing a population boom with crows.
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Vi ser en befolkning der boomer med krager.
02:49
So bird counts are indicating that we might be seeing
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Så antallet af fugle indikerer at vi måske ser
02:51
up to exponential growth in their numbers.
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en eksponentiel vækst i deres antal.
02:53
So that's no great surprise.
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Så det er ikke nogen stor overraskelse.
02:56
But what was really interesting to me was to find out that
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Men det der var virkelig interessant for mig, var at finde ud af at
02:58
the birds were adapting in a pretty unusual way.
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fuglene tilpassede sig på en temmelig usædvanlig måde.
03:01
And I'll give you an example of that.
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Og jeg vil give jer et eksempel på det.
03:04
So this is Betty. She's a New Caledonian crow.
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Så dette er Betty. Hun er en New Caledonian krage.
03:07
And these crows use sticks in the wild
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og disse krager bruger pinde i naturen
03:09
to get insects and whatnot out of pieces of wood.
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til at få insekter og sådan noget ud af stykker træ.
03:12
Here, she's trying to get a piece of meat out of a tube.
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Her, hun prøver at få et stykke kød ud af et rør.
03:14
But the researchers had a problem.
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Men forskerne havde et problem.
03:16
They messed up and left just a stick of wire in there.
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De lavede en fejl og efterlod kun en pind af ståltråd derinde.
03:18
And she hadn't had the opportunity to do this before.
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Og hun havde ikke fået muligheden for at prøv det før.
03:21
You see, it wasn't working very well.
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Ser I, det virkede ikke særlig godt.
03:24
So she adapted.
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Så hun tilpassede sig.
03:26
Now this is completely unprompted. She had never seen this done before.
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Nu er dette totalt på eget initiativ. Hun havde aldrig set dette blive gjort før.
03:30
No one taught her to bend this into a hook,
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Ingen havde lært hende at bøje den til en krog,
03:32
had shown her how it could happen.
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havde vist hende hvordan det kunne gøres.
03:33
But she did it all on her own.
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Men hun gjorde det helt selv.
03:35
So keep in mind that she's never seen this done.
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Så husk på at hun aldrig har set dette blive gjort.
03:39
Right.
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Okay.
03:41
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
03:48
Yeah. All right.
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Ja, Okay.
03:50
(Applause)
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(Bifald)
03:53
That's the part where the researchers freak out.
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Det er på sådan et tidspunkt at forskerne går agurk.
03:56
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
03:58
So, it turns out we've been finding more and more
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Så, det viser sig at vi mere og mere har fundet ud af
04:00
that crows are really, really intelligent.
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at krager er virkelig, virkelig intelligente.
04:01
Their brains are proportionate,
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Deres hjerner er proportionelt,
04:02
in the same proportion as chimpanzee brains are.
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i samme proportion som en chimpanses hjerne er.
04:05
There are all kinds of anecdotes for different kinds of intelligence they have.
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Der er alle mulig anekdoter for den forskellige slags intelligens de har.
04:09
For example, in Sweden,
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For eksempel, i Sverige,
04:11
crows will wait for fishermen to drop lines through holes in the ice.
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venter kragerne på at fiskerne smider deres liner gennem hul i isen.
04:13
And when the fishermen move off,
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Og når fiskerne forsvinder,
04:15
the crows fly down, reel up the lines, and eat the fish or the bait.
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flyver kragerne derned, trækker linerne ind, og spiser fiskene eller maddingen.
04:19
It's pretty annoying for the fishermen.
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Det er ret irriterende for fiskerne.
04:22
On an entirely different tack,
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I en helt anden sammenhæng,
04:23
at University of Washington, they, a few years ago,
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ved University of Washington, lavede de, for et par år siden,
04:25
were doing an experiment where they captured some crows on campus.
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et eksperiment hvor de fangede nogle krager på universitetsområdet.
04:28
Some students went out and netted some crows,
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Nogle studerende tog ud og fangede nogle krager,
04:30
brought them in, and were -- weighed them, and measured them and whatnot,
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tog dem med ind, og var -- vejede dem, og målte dem og alt muligt,
04:33
and then let them back out again.
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og lod dem så slippe afsted igen.
04:34
And were entertained to discover
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Og vi var fornøjede da vi fandt ud af
04:35
that for the rest of the week, these crows,
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at resten af ugen, ville disse krager,
04:37
whenever these particular students walked around campus,
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når de bestemte studerende gik rundt på universitetsområdet,
04:39
these crows would caw at them,
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ville disse krager skræppe af dem,
04:41
and run around and make their life kind of miserable.
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og løbe rundt og gøre deres liv surt.
04:44
They were significantly less entertained when this went on for the next week.
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De var væsentlig mindre fornøjede da dette skete ugen efter.
04:48
And the next month. And after summer break.
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Og måneden efter. Og efter sommerferien.
04:52
Until they finally graduated and left campus,
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Indtil de endelig dimitterede og forlod universitetsområdet,
04:54
and -- glad to get away, I'm sure --
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og -- glade for at komme afsted er jeg sikker på --
04:56
came back sometime later, and found the crows still remembered them.
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kom tilbage noget tid efter, og fandt ud af at kragerne stadig huskede dem.
04:59
So -- the moral being, don't piss off crows.
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Så -- moralen er, lad vær med at gøre en krage rasende.
05:02
So now, students at the University of Washington
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Så de studerende ved University of Washington
05:06
that are studying these crows
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der studerer disse krager
05:07
do so with a giant wig and a big mask.
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gør det med en kæmpe paryk og en stor maske.
05:09
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
05:12
It's fairly interesting.
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Det er ret interessant.
05:14
So we know that these crows are really smart,
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Så vi ved at disse krager er virkelig kloge,
05:16
but the more I dug into this, the more I found
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men jo mere jeg gravede mig ned i dette, jo mere fandt jeg ud af
05:18
that they actually have an even more significant adaptation.
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at de faktisk er endnu bedre til at tilpasse sig.
05:23
Video: Crows have become highly skilled at
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Video: Krager er blevet utrolig dygtige til at
05:25
making a living in these new urban environments.
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overleve i disse nye urbane miljøer.
05:29
In this Japanese city, they have devised a way of
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I denne japanske by, har de fundet på en måde at
05:32
eating a food that normally they can't manage:
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spise mad som de normalt ikke kan håndtere:
05:37
drop it among the traffic.
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de smider det i trafikken.
05:43
The problem now is collecting the bits,
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Problemet er nu at samle de små dele,
05:46
without getting run over.
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uden at blive kørt over.
05:48
Wait for the light to stop the traffic.
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Vent på at lyset stopper trafikken.
06:02
Then, collect your cracked nut in safety.
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Så, få din knækkede nød i sikkerhed.
06:10
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
06:11
(Applause)
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(Bifald)
06:12
Joshua Klein: Yeah, yeah. Pretty interesting.
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Joshua Klein: Ja, ja. Ret interessant.
06:14
So what's significant about this isn't that crows are using cars to crack nuts.
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Så det der er vigtigt for det her er ikke at kragerne bruger bilerne til at knække nødderne.
06:17
In fact, that's old hat for crows.
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Faktisk, er det gammelt nyt for krager.
06:19
This happened about 10 years ago
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Dette skete for cirka 10 år siden
06:21
in a place called Sendai City, at a driving school
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et sted der hedder Sendai City, ved en køreskole
06:24
in the suburbs of Tokyo.
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i en forstad til Tokyo.
06:26
And since that time,
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Og siden da,
06:27
all of the crows in the neighborhood are picking up this behavior.
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lærer alle kragerne i kvarteret denne adfærd.
06:29
And now, every crow within five kilometers is standing by a sidewalk,
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Og nu, står alle krager i en omkreds på fem kilometer på fortovet,
06:32
waiting to collect its lunch.
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og venter på at indsamle sin frokost.
06:35
So, they're learning from each other. And research bears this out.
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Så, der lærer af hinanden. Og det viser forskningen.
06:37
Parents seem to be teaching their young.
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Forældre ser ud til at undervise deres unger.
06:39
They've learned from their peers. They've learned from their enemies.
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De har lært fra deres ligemand. Der har lært af deres fjender.
06:43
If I have a little extra time, I'll tell you about a case of crow infidelity
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Hvis jeg har lidt ekstra tid, fortæller jeg jer om tilfælde af krage utroskab
06:46
that illustrates that nicely.
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der viser det fint.
06:48
The point being that they've developed cultural adaptation.
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Pointen er at de har udviklet en kulturel tilpasning.
06:51
And as we heard yesterday,
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Og som vi hørte i forgårs,
06:53
that's the Pandora's box that's getting human beings in trouble,
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er det Pandoras æske der får mennesker i problemer,
06:55
and we're starting to see it with them.
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og det begynder vi at se hos dem.
06:57
They're able to very quickly and very flexibly adapt
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De er i stand til meget hurtigt og meget fleksibelt at tilpasse sig
07:00
to new challenges and new resources in their environment,
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til nye udfordringer og nye ressourcer i deres miljø,
07:03
which is really useful if you live in a city.
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der er virkelig nyttigt hvis man bor i en by.
07:06
So we know that there's lots of crows.
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Så vi ved at der er mange krager.
07:08
We found out they're really smart, and we found out that they can teach each other.
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Vi fandt ud af at de er virkelig kloge, og vi fandt ud af at de kan undervise hinanden.
07:11
And when all this became clear to me,
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Og da dette alt sammen blev tydeligt for mig,
07:13
I realized the only obvious thing to do is build a vending machine.
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blev jeg klar over at den eneste åbenlyse ting at gøre, er at bygge en automat.
07:16
So that's what we did.
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Så det var det vi gjorde.
07:17
This is a vending machine for crows.
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Dette er en automat til krager.
07:19
And it uses Skinnerian training to shape their behavior over four stages.
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Og den bruger Skinnerian træning til at forme deres adfærd i fire stadier.
07:22
It's pretty simple.
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Det er ret simpelt.
07:24
Basically, what happens is that we put this out in a field,
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Dybest set, det der sker er at vi sætter dette ud på en mark,
07:27
or someplace where there's lots of crows,
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eller et sted der er mange krager,
07:29
and we put coins and peanuts all around the base of the machine.
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og vi lægger mønter og jordnødder rundt om hele soklen på automaten.
07:31
And crows eventually come by, and eat the peanuts
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Og kragerne kommer med tiden forbi og spiser jordnødderne
07:33
and get used to the machine being there.
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og vænner sig til at automaten er der.
07:35
And eventually, they eat up all the peanuts.
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Og med tiden, spiser de alle jordnødderne.
07:37
And then they see that there are peanuts here on the feeder tray,
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Og så ser de at der er jordnødder her på foderbakken,
07:40
and they hop up and help themselves.
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og de hopper op og hjælper sig selv.
07:42
And then they leave, and the machine spits up more coins and peanuts,
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Og så smutter de, og maskinen spytter flere mønter og jordnødder ud,
07:44
and life is really dandy, if you're a crow.
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og livet er virkelig fremragende, hvis man er en krage.
07:46
Then you can come back anytime and get yourself a peanut.
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Og så kan man når som helst komme tilbage og få sig en jordnød.
07:49
So, when they get really used to that, we move on to the crows coming back.
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Så, når de virkelig bliver van til det, går vi videre til at kragerne kommer tilbage.
07:52
Now, they're used to the sound of the machine, and they keep coming back,
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Nu er de van til automatens lyd, og de bliver ved med at komme tilbage,
07:55
and digging out these peanuts from amongst the pile of coins that's there.
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og graver disse jordnødder ud mellem stakken af mønter der er der.
07:57
And when they get really happy about this,
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Og når de bliver virkelig glade for dette,
07:59
we go ahead and stymie them.
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begynder vi at hindre dem.
08:01
And we move to the third stage, where we only give them a coin.
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Og vi går videre til det tredje stadie, hvor vi kun giver dem en mønt.
08:04
Now, like most of us who have gotten used to a good thing,
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Nu, ligesom de fleste af os der har vænnet os til en god ting,
08:06
this really pisses them off.
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pisser det dem virkelig af.
08:07
So, they do what they do in nature when they're looking for something --
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Så, de gør det de gør i naturen når de leder efter noget --
08:11
they sweep things out of the way with their beak.
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de fejer ting til side med deres næb.
08:13
And they do that here, and that knocks the coins down the slot,
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Og det gør de der, og det slår mønterne ned i sprækken,
08:16
and when that happens, they get a peanut.
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og når det sker, får de en jordnød.
08:18
And so this goes on for some time.
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Så det fortsætter i noget tid.
08:19
The crows learn that all they have to do is show up,
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Kragerne lærer at alt de behøver at gøre, er at vise sig,
08:21
wait for the coin to come out, put the coin in the slot, and then they get their peanut.
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vente på at mønten kommer ud, putte mønten i sprækken, og så får de deres jordnød.
08:24
And when they're really good and comfortable with that,
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Og når de er virkelig gode og tilpasse med det,
08:26
we move to the final stage, in which they show up and nothing happens.
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går vi videre til det sidste stadie, hvor de dukker op og der sker ikke noget.
08:31
And this is where we see the difference between crows and other animals.
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Og det er der vi ser en forskel mellem krager og andre dyr.
08:33
Squirrels, for example, would show up, look for the peanut, go away.
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Egern, for eksempel, ville dukke op, se efter jordnødden, gå væk.
08:37
Come back, look for the peanut, go away.
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Kommer tilbage, kigge efter jordnødden, gå væk.
08:40
They do this maybe half a dozen times before they get bored,
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De gør det måske et halvt dusin gange før de keder sig,
08:43
and then they go off and play in traffic.
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og de tager hen og leger i trafikken.
08:45
Crows, on the other hand, show up, and they try and figure it out.
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Krager, på den anden side, dukker op, og de prøver på at regne den ud.
08:49
They know that this machine's been messing with them,
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De ved at denne automat har lavet pis med dem,
08:51
through three different stages of behavior.
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gennem tre forskellige adfærdsstadier.
08:53
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
08:54
They figure it's gotta have more to it.
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De regner med at der er mere ved det.
08:56
So, they poke at it and peck at it and whatnot.
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Så, de prikker til den, og hakker den og sådan noget.
08:58
And eventually some crow gets a bright idea that,
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Og til slut får en krage den lyse ide at,
09:00
"Hey, there's lots of coins lying around from the first stage,
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"Hey, der ligger masser af mønter her fra det første stadie,
09:03
lying around on the ground," hops down, picks it up, drops it in the slot.
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flyder rundt på jorden," hopper ned, samler den op, smider den i sprækken.
09:06
And then, we're off to the races.
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Og så, er spurten i gang.
09:08
That crow enjoys a temporary monopoly on peanuts,
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Den krage nyder et midlertidigt monopol på jordnødder,
09:10
until his friends figure out how to do it, and then there we go.
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indtil dens venner regner ud hvordan man skal gøre det, og så er det afsted.
09:15
So, what's significant about this to me
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Så, det der er vigtigt ved dette for mig er
09:17
isn't that we can train crows to pick up peanuts.
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ikke at vi kan træne krager til at samle jordnødder op.
09:19
Mind you, there's 216 million dollars' worth of change lost every year,
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Tænk på, at der er mistes 216 millioner dollar i småpenge hvert år,
09:23
but I'm not sure I can depend on that ROI from crows.
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men jeg er ikke sikker på at jeg kan regne med det investeringsafkast fra krager.
09:27
Instead, I think we should look a little bit larger.
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Jeg synes vi i stedet skulle se på det lidt større billede.
09:30
I think that crows can be trained to do other things.
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Jeg mener, at krager kan trænes til at gøre andre ting.
09:32
For example, why not train them to pick up garbage after stadium events?
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For eksempel, hvorfor ikke træne dem til at samle skrald efter events i et stadion?
09:36
Or find expensive components from discarded electronics?
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Eller til at finde dyre komponenter fra kasseret elektronik?
09:38
Or maybe do search and rescue?
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Eller måske som eftersøgningshold?
09:40
The main thing, the main point of all this for me is
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Hovedpunktet, hovedpunktet for mig i alt dette er
09:44
that we can find mutually beneficial systems for these species.
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at vi kan finde gensidigt gavnlige systemer for begge disse arter.
09:46
We can find ways to interact with these other species
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Vi kan finde på måder til at interagere med disse andre arter
09:48
that doesn't involve exterminating them,
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der ikke omfatter at udrydde dem,
09:50
but involves finding an equilibrium with them that's a useful balance.
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men involverer det at finde en ligevægt med dem, der er en nyttig balance.
09:54
Thanks very much.
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Mange tak.
09:56
(Applause)
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(Bifald)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Joshua Klein - HackerJoshua Klein is a fervent hacker of all things, including wet, pulpy systems like animals and people and the way they behave.
Why you should listen
Joshua Klein will hack anything that moves -- his list includes "social systems, computer networks, institutions, consumer hardware and animal behavior." His latest project, though charmingly low-tech, has amazing implications for the human-animal interface.
Right now, Klein is working at Frog Design as a Principle Technologist, while developing mobile/social applications, health care-related systems and other tools that improve people's lives. He's the author of the novel Roo'd, which was the first modern book (after Tarzan) to be ported to the iPhone.
Joshua Klein | Speaker | TED.com