TED2008
Joshua Klein: A thought experiment on the intelligence of crows
Joshua Klein o inteligenci vran
Filmed:
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Heker in pisec Joshua Klein se navdušuje nad vranami (ste kdaj opazili odsev inteligence v njihovih malih, črnih očeh?). Po dolgem ljubiteljskem raziskovanju obnašanja vran, se je domislil elegantne napravice, ki bo morda med živaljo in človekom vzpostavila novo vez.
Joshua Klein - Hacker
Joshua Klein is a fervent hacker of all things, including wet, pulpy systems like animals and people and the way they behave. Full bio
Joshua Klein is a fervent hacker of all things, including wet, pulpy systems like animals and people and the way they behave. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:18
How many of you have seen the Alfred Hitchcock film "The Birds"?
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Koliko vas pozna film Alfreda Hitchcocka - Ptiči?
00:21
Any of you get really freaked out by that?
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Se je komu zdel zelo strašljiv?
00:24
You might want to leave now.
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Morda želite zapustiti to predavanje...
00:26
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
00:27
So, this is a vending machine for crows.
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To je avtomat za vrane...
00:29
And over the past few days, many of you have been asking me,
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V minulih dneh me je veliko udeležencev vprašalo,
00:31
"How did you come to this? How did you get started doing this?"
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kako sem se sploh lotil tega? Kako sem se začel ukvarjati s tem?
00:34
And it started, as with many great ideas,
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In kot mnogo krasnih idej,
00:36
or many ideas you can't get rid of anyway,
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ki se jih ne moreš znebiti,
00:38
at a cocktail party.
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se je tudi ta porodila na cocktail partiju.
00:39
About 10 years ago, I was at a cocktail party with a friend of mine,
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Pred približno 10 leti sem bil na zabavi pri prijatelju.
00:42
and we're sitting there, and he was complaining about the crows
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Sedeli smo in prijatelj se je pritoževal o vranah,
00:44
that he had seen that were all over his yard and making a big mess.
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ki jih je začel videvati, kako svinjajo po njegovem dvorišču.
00:48
And he was telling me that really, we ought to try and eradicate these things.
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Rekel je, da bi bilo treba ta problem rešiti.
00:50
We gotta kill them because they're making a mess.
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"Ubiti jih moramo, ker so z njimi same težave."
00:52
I said that was stupid,
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Odvrnil sem, da je to neumno.
00:53
you know, maybe we should just train them to do something useful.
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Mogoče bi jih morali samo naučiti česa uporabnega.
00:55
And he said that was impossible.
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On je trdil, da je to nemogoče
00:58
And I'm sure I'm in good company in finding that tremendously annoying
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Prepričan sem, da gre tudi vam zelo na živce, če vam kdo reče,
01:01
-- when someone tells you it's impossible.
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da je nekaj nemogoče,
01:02
So, I spent the next 10 years reading about crows in my spare time.
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zato sem naslednjih 10 let v svojem prostem času bral o vranah.
01:06
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
01:09
And after 10 years of this, my wife eventually said,
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In po 10 letih branja mi je žena rekla,
01:11
"Look, you know, you gotta do this thing
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da le moram narediti to,
01:13
you've been talking about, and build the vending machine."
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o čemer vedno govorim: namreč avtomatu za vrane.
01:15
So I did.
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In tako sem ga naredil.
01:16
But part of the reason that I found this interesting
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Toda na nek način me je to zanimalo tudi zato,
01:18
is that I started noticing that we are
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ker sem opazil, da se vsi
01:20
very aware of all the species that are going
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zavedamo tega, da vrste živali izumirajo
01:22
extinct on the planet as a result of human habitation expansion,
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zaradi širitve človekovega življenjskega prostora,
01:24
and no one seems to be paying attention
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nihče pa ne posveča pozornosti
01:27
to all the species that are actually living -- that are surviving.
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vrstam, ki dejansko živijo - ki preživijo.
01:30
And I'm talking specifically about synanthropic species,
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V mislih imam predvsem sinantropne vrste -
01:33
which are species that have adapted specifically for human ecologies,
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to so tiste, ki so se posebej prilagodile življenju v bližini človeka.
01:36
species like rats and cockroaches and crows.
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To so denimo podgane, ščurki in vrane.
01:40
And as I started looking at them, I was finding that they had hyper-adapted.
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Ko sem jih opazoval, se mi je posvetilo, da so hiper-prilagojene.
01:43
They'd become extremely adept at living with us.
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Postale so izjemno vešče življenja z nami,
01:46
And in return, we just tried to kill them all the time.
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mi pa jih že ves čas skušamo iztrebiti.
01:50
And in doing so, we were breeding them for parasitism.
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Na ta način smo jih samo vzredili kot zajedalce.
01:52
We were giving them all sorts of reasons to adapt new ways.
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Vedno znova smo jim dajali povod za prilagoditev.
01:56
So, for example, rats are incredibly responsive breeders.
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Tako so na primer podgane izjemno plodne,
01:59
And cockroaches, as anyone who's tried to get rid of them knows,
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ščurki - to ve vsak, ki se jih je kdaj hotel znebiti -
02:02
have become really immune to the poisons that we're using.
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pa so postali izjemno odporni na naše strupe.
02:05
So, I thought, let's build something that's mutually beneficial.
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Tako sem prišel na idejo, da bi morali narediti nekaj, kar bo v obojestransko korist,
02:08
Well, then let's build something that we can both benefit from,
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nekaj, kar bo dobro zanje in za nas in
02:10
and find some way to make a new relationship with these species.
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nam s temi vrstami omogočilo vzpostaviti nek nov odnos.
02:13
And so I built the vending machine.
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Tako je nastal avtomat za vrane.
02:16
But the story of the vending machine is a little more interesting
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A zgodba o tem avtomatu je zanimivejša,
02:18
if you know more about crows.
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če vemo nekaj več o vranah.
02:20
It turns out that crows aren't just surviving with human beings --
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Kot se je izkazalo, se vrane niso naučile z ljudmi le preživeti,
02:22
they're actually really thriving.
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pač pa so pri tem sobivanju celo izredno uspešne.
02:24
They're found everywhere on the planet except for the Arctic
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Najdemo jih povsod, razen na Arktiki
02:26
and the southern tip of South America.
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in južnem koncu Južne Amerike,
02:28
And in all that area, they're only rarely found
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le redko pa živijo in se razmnožujejo
02:31
breeding more than five kilometers away from human beings.
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več kot 5 km stran od ljudi.
02:33
So we may not think about them,
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Morda se jih ne zavedamo,
02:35
but they're always around.
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a vrane so vedno nekje v bližini.
02:37
And not surprisingly, given the human population growth,
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In glede na rast človeške populacije -
02:39
more than half of the human population is living in cities now.
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več kot polovica človeštva živi v mestih
02:42
And out of those, nine-tenths
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in približno 90 odstotkov
02:44
of the human growth population is occurring in cities.
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rasti populacije se dogaja v mestih -
02:46
We're seeing a population boom with crows.
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ni presenetljivo, da tudi število vran naglo narašča.
02:49
So bird counts are indicating that we might be seeing
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Preštevanje ptic kaže,
02:51
up to exponential growth in their numbers.
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da je to naraščanje skoraj eksponencialno.
02:53
So that's no great surprise.
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A temu se niti ne gre čuditi.
02:56
But what was really interesting to me was to find out that
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Kar pa se mi je zdelo zanimivo, je bilo odkritje,
02:58
the birds were adapting in a pretty unusual way.
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da se vrane prilagajajo na zelo zanimiv način.
03:01
And I'll give you an example of that.
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Naj vam pokažem primer.
03:04
So this is Betty. She's a New Caledonian crow.
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To je Betty, novokaledonska vrana.
03:07
And these crows use sticks in the wild
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Te vrane v divjini uporabljajo palčke
03:09
to get insects and whatnot out of pieces of wood.
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za bezanje insektov in še česa iz kosov lesa.
03:12
Here, she's trying to get a piece of meat out of a tube.
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Tukaj poskuša dobiti košček mesa iz cevi.
03:14
But the researchers had a problem.
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Ampak raziskovalci so očitno imeli problem,
03:16
They messed up and left just a stick of wire in there.
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nekaj so zamočili in ji pustili samo košček žice.
03:18
And she hadn't had the opportunity to do this before.
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Pred tem še ni imela priložnosti početi česa takega,
03:21
You see, it wasn't working very well.
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vidite lahko, da ni bila ravno uspešna.
03:24
So she adapted.
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Pa se je prilagodila.
03:26
Now this is completely unprompted. She had never seen this done before.
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Tole dela popolnoma sama od sebe. Pred tem tega še ni naredila.
03:30
No one taught her to bend this into a hook,
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Nihče je ni naučil ukriviti žice,
03:32
had shown her how it could happen.
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nihče ji ni pokazal, kako se to lahko naredi.
03:33
But she did it all on her own.
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Vsega se je domislila sama.
03:35
So keep in mind that she's never seen this done.
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Še enkrat: nikoli prej ni videla, kako se to počne.
03:39
Right.
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Dobro.
03:41
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
03:48
Yeah. All right.
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Mhm, v redu.
03:50
(Applause)
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(aplavz)
03:53
That's the part where the researchers freak out.
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To je del, kjer se raziskovalcem naježijo dlake.
03:56
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
03:58
So, it turns out we've been finding more and more
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Bolj in bolj smo ugotavljali,
04:00
that crows are really, really intelligent.
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da so vrane zares zelo inteligentne.
04:01
Their brains are proportionate,
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Njihovi možgani so sorazmerno
04:02
in the same proportion as chimpanzee brains are.
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približno tako veliki kot šimpanzovi.
04:05
There are all kinds of anecdotes for different kinds of intelligence they have.
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Obstaja več anekdot o njihovi inteligenci.
04:09
For example, in Sweden,
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Na primer: na Švedskem
04:11
crows will wait for fishermen to drop lines through holes in the ice.
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prežijo na ribiče. Ko ti odvržejo trnke skozi luknje v ledu
04:13
And when the fishermen move off,
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in se umaknejo,
04:15
the crows fly down, reel up the lines, and eat the fish or the bait.
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priletijo vrane, izvlečejo trnke in pojedo ribe ali vabo.
04:19
It's pretty annoying for the fishermen.
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Precej nadležno za ribiče.
04:22
On an entirely different tack,
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Čisto drugače pa je bilo
04:23
at University of Washington, they, a few years ago,
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na Univerzi v Washingtonu, kjer so pred nekaj leti
04:25
were doing an experiment where they captured some crows on campus.
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izvedli poskus, v katerem so nekaj vran iz kampusa ujeli.
04:28
Some students went out and netted some crows,
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Študentje so šli ven, v mreže ujeli nekaj vran,
04:30
brought them in, and were -- weighed them, and measured them and whatnot,
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jih prinesli v laboratorij, jih stehtali, izmerili in te stvari
04:33
and then let them back out again.
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in jih izpustili.
04:34
And were entertained to discover
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Zdelo se jim je zabavno, ko so odkrili,
04:35
that for the rest of the week, these crows,
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da so te vrane še ves teden,
04:37
whenever these particular students walked around campus,
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ko so se točno ti študentje sprehajali po kampusu -
04:39
these crows would caw at them,
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zaradi njih krakale,
04:41
and run around and make their life kind of miserable.
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tekale okrog njih in jim na nek način grenile življenje.
04:44
They were significantly less entertained when this went on for the next week.
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Bistveno manj zabavno je to bilo... naslednji teden.
04:48
And the next month. And after summer break.
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In naslednji mesec. In po počitnicah.
04:52
Until they finally graduated and left campus,
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Dokler niso končno diplomirali in zapustili kampusa -
04:54
and -- glad to get away, I'm sure --
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prepričan sem, da so bili veseli, da so šli.
04:56
came back sometime later, and found the crows still remembered them.
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Ko so se kasneje vrnili, so ugotovili, da se jih vrane še vedno spominjajo.
04:59
So -- the moral being, don't piss off crows.
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Poanta zgodbe: ne razjezite vran!
05:02
So now, students at the University of Washington
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Ko zdaj študentje na Univerzi v Washingtonu
05:06
that are studying these crows
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preučujejo vrane,
05:07
do so with a giant wig and a big mask.
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to počnejo z ogromno lasuljo in masko.
05:09
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
05:12
It's fairly interesting.
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Zelo zanimivo.
05:14
So we know that these crows are really smart,
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Zdaj vemo, da so te vrane res bistre,
05:16
but the more I dug into this, the more I found
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ampak bolj kot sem ril po tem, bolj sem bil prepričan,
05:18
that they actually have an even more significant adaptation.
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da imajo še pomembnejšo prilagoditev.
05:23
Video: Crows have become highly skilled at
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(Pripovedovalec) Vrane so razvile izjemne spretnosti,
05:25
making a living in these new urban environments.
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ki jim pomagajo preživeti v novih, urbanih okoljih.
05:29
In this Japanese city, they have devised a way of
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V tem japonskem mestu so iznašle način
05:32
eating a food that normally they can't manage:
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uživanja hrane, ki jim je sicer nedostopna -
05:37
drop it among the traffic.
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z višine jo spustijo na cesto.
05:43
The problem now is collecting the bits,
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Zdaj je problem to, kako pobrati koščke,
05:46
without getting run over.
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ne da bi jo zbil avto.
05:48
Wait for the light to stop the traffic.
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Počaka na semafor, ki ustavi promet.
06:02
Then, collect your cracked nut in safety.
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In tako pobere lešnik popolnoma varno.
06:10
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
06:11
(Applause)
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(aplavz)
06:12
Joshua Klein: Yeah, yeah. Pretty interesting.
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Joshua Klein: Ja, ja. Še kar zanimivo.
06:14
So what's significant about this isn't that crows are using cars to crack nuts.
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To, da vrane uporabljajo promet za trenje lešnikov, niti ni tako pomembno.
06:17
In fact, that's old hat for crows.
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Pravzaprav je to zanje star trik.
06:19
This happened about 10 years ago
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To se je zgodilo pred približno 10 leti
06:21
in a place called Sendai City, at a driving school
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v avtošoli v Sendai Cityju,
06:24
in the suburbs of Tokyo.
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predmestju Tokia.
06:26
And since that time,
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Od takrat dalje,
06:27
all of the crows in the neighborhood are picking up this behavior.
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so se vse vrane v okolišu naučile tega obnašanja.
06:29
And now, every crow within five kilometers is standing by a sidewalk,
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Zdaj vsaka vrana v razdalji 5 kilometrov stoji ob pločniku
06:32
waiting to collect its lunch.
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in čaka, da bo kosilo nared.
06:35
So, they're learning from each other. And research bears this out.
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Učijo se druga od druge. To podpirajo tudi raziskave.
06:37
Parents seem to be teaching their young.
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Starši učijo mladiče.
06:39
They've learned from their peers. They've learned from their enemies.
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Oni so se naučili od vrstnikov, ti od sovražnikov.
06:43
If I have a little extra time, I'll tell you about a case of crow infidelity
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Če mi bo ostalo kaj časa, vam bom povedal o primeru vranje nezvestobe,
06:46
that illustrates that nicely.
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ki to dobro ponazarja.
06:48
The point being that they've developed cultural adaptation.
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Dejstvo je, da so vrane razvile kulturno prilagoditev.
06:51
And as we heard yesterday,
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Kot smo slišali včeraj,
06:53
that's the Pandora's box that's getting human beings in trouble,
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je to ta Pandorina skrinjica, ki spravlja človeka v težave,
06:55
and we're starting to see it with them.
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in to se kaže tudi pri vranah.
06:57
They're able to very quickly and very flexibly adapt
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Vrane se zelo hitro in zelo fleksibilno prilagajajo
07:00
to new challenges and new resources in their environment,
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novim izzivom in virom v svojem okolju,
07:03
which is really useful if you live in a city.
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kar je posebej koristno, če živiš v mestu.
07:06
So we know that there's lots of crows.
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Vemo, da je vran veliko.
07:08
We found out they're really smart, and we found out that they can teach each other.
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Ugotovili smo, da so precej bistre in tudi, da lahko druga drugo učijo.
07:11
And when all this became clear to me,
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Ko se mi je to posvetilo,
07:13
I realized the only obvious thing to do is build a vending machine.
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sem vedel, da je zame edina logična poteza to, da naredim avtomat za vrane.
07:16
So that's what we did.
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In to sem naredil.
07:17
This is a vending machine for crows.
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To je avtomat za vrane.
07:19
And it uses Skinnerian training to shape their behavior over four stages.
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Pri avtomatu sem uporabil trening po Skinnerju, ki vrane uči v štirih fazah.
07:22
It's pretty simple.
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Je zelo preprost.
07:24
Basically, what happens is that we put this out in a field,
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Najprej avtomat postavimo nekam ven,
07:27
or someplace where there's lots of crows,
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nekam, kjer je veliko vran.
07:29
and we put coins and peanuts all around the base of the machine.
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Okrog naprave razstresemo kovance in arašide.
07:31
And crows eventually come by, and eat the peanuts
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Vrane priledijo, pojedo arašide
07:33
and get used to the machine being there.
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in se na napravo nekako navadijo.
07:35
And eventually, they eat up all the peanuts.
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Kmalu pojedo vse arašide,
07:37
And then they see that there are peanuts here on the feeder tray,
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a opazijo, da so še na vodilu,
07:40
and they hop up and help themselves.
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zato skočijo gor in si postrežejo.
07:42
And then they leave, and the machine spits up more coins and peanuts,
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Odidejo stran in avtomat izpljune še več kovancev in arašidov
07:44
and life is really dandy, if you're a crow.
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in življenje je prav krasno, če si vrana.
07:46
Then you can come back anytime and get yourself a peanut.
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Vrneš se kadarkoli in si privoščiš arašid.
07:49
So, when they get really used to that, we move on to the crows coming back.
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Ko se vrane tega res privadijo, jih naučimo vračanja.
07:52
Now, they're used to the sound of the machine, and they keep coming back,
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Navajene so tudi zvokov avtomata, še vedno se vračajo
07:55
and digging out these peanuts from amongst the pile of coins that's there.
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in izkopavajo arašide iz kupa kovancev,
07:57
And when they get really happy about this,
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in ko so s tem povsem zadovoljne,
07:59
we go ahead and stymie them.
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gremo korak naprej in jih uženemo v kozji rog.
08:01
And we move to the third stage, where we only give them a coin.
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Sledi tretja stopnja, v kateri jim damo samo kovanec.
08:04
Now, like most of us who have gotten used to a good thing,
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In to jih, kot večino nas, ko se enkrat navadimo na dobre stvari,
08:06
this really pisses them off.
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zares razjezi.
08:07
So, they do what they do in nature when they're looking for something --
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In začnejo se obnašati tako, kot se obnašajo tudi v naravi, kadar kaj iščejo -
08:11
they sweep things out of the way with their beak.
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s kljunom odmikajo in razmetavajo stvari.
08:13
And they do that here, and that knocks the coins down the slot,
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To počnejo tudi tukaj, zaradi česar kakšen kovanec zleti tudi v režo.
08:16
and when that happens, they get a peanut.
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In ko se to zgodi, dobijo arašid.
08:18
And so this goes on for some time.
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Po določenem času
08:19
The crows learn that all they have to do is show up,
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se vrane naučijo, da je vse, kar morajo storiti, to, da pridejo,
08:21
wait for the coin to come out, put the coin in the slot, and then they get their peanut.
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počakajo na kovanec, ga vržejo v režo in dobijo arašid.
08:24
And when they're really good and comfortable with that,
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In ko to res obvladajo,
08:26
we move to the final stage, in which they show up and nothing happens.
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sledi zadnja stopnja. Vrane pridejo, nič pa se ne zgodi.
08:31
And this is where we see the difference between crows and other animals.
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In tukaj lahko vidimo razliko med vranami in ostalimi živalmi.
08:33
Squirrels, for example, would show up, look for the peanut, go away.
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Veverice, na primer, bi prišle, iskale arašid, neuspešno, in odšle.
08:37
Come back, look for the peanut, go away.
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Čez nekaj časa bi spet prišle, iskale arašid, neuspešno, in odšle.
08:40
They do this maybe half a dozen times before they get bored,
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To bi naredile mogoče 6x, nato bi se naveličale
08:43
and then they go off and play in traffic.
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in se šle raje igrat na cesto med avtomobile.
08:45
Crows, on the other hand, show up, and they try and figure it out.
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Vrane, po drugi strani, pridejo in zadevo poskušajo razvozlat.
08:49
They know that this machine's been messing with them,
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Jasno jim je, da jih ta avtomat vleče za kljun,
08:51
through three different stages of behavior.
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obnašal se je že na tri različne načine,
08:53
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
08:54
They figure it's gotta have more to it.
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torej mora biti še kaj na tem.
08:56
So, they poke at it and peck at it and whatnot.
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Zato drezajo vanj, ga kljuvajo itd.,
08:58
And eventually some crow gets a bright idea that,
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dokler ene od vran ne prešine,
09:00
"Hey, there's lots of coins lying around from the first stage,
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da naokoli leži precej kovancev - na tleh so še iz prve stopnje -
09:03
lying around on the ground," hops down, picks it up, drops it in the slot.
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skoči dol, pobere kovanec, ga vrže v režo in ...
09:06
And then, we're off to the races.
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... naj se zabava začne!
09:08
That crow enjoys a temporary monopoly on peanuts,
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Ta vrana nekaj časa uživa monopol nad arašidi,
09:10
until his friends figure out how to do it, and then there we go.
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potem pa postopek dojamejo tudi njene kolegice.
09:15
So, what's significant about this to me
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Pri vsem tem se mi ne zdi najbolj pomembno to,
09:17
isn't that we can train crows to pick up peanuts.
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da vrane lahko naučimo pobirati arašide.
09:19
Mind you, there's 216 million dollars' worth of change lost every year,
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Naj vas samo spomnim, da vsako leto izgubimo za 216 milionov dolarjev drobiža,
09:23
but I'm not sure I can depend on that ROI from crows.
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a vseeno nisem prepričan, da bi se lahko zanašal na ROI (donos na investicijo) vran.
09:27
Instead, I think we should look a little bit larger.
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Namesto tega bi po moje morali pogledati širše.
09:30
I think that crows can be trained to do other things.
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Mislim, da se da vrane natretnirati tudi kaj drugega.
09:32
For example, why not train them to pick up garbage after stadium events?
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Zakaj jih, na primer, ne bi naučili pobirati smeti po prireditvah na stadionih?
09:36
Or find expensive components from discarded electronics?
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Ali pa med elektronskimi odpadki poiskati drage komponente?
09:38
Or maybe do search and rescue?
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Kaj pa iskanje in reševanje ponesrečencev?
09:40
The main thing, the main point of all this for me is
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Menim, da je pri vsem tem najpomembnejše to,
09:44
that we can find mutually beneficial systems for these species.
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da lahko najdemo sisteme, ki bodo v korist nam in drugim živalskim vrstam.
09:46
We can find ways to interact with these other species
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Najdemo lahko načine medsebojne interakcije,
09:48
that doesn't involve exterminating them,
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ki ne vključujejo iztrebljanja,
09:50
but involves finding an equilibrium with them that's a useful balance.
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pač pa iskanje za vse koristnega ravnovesja.
09:54
Thanks very much.
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Hvala za pozornost.
09:56
(Applause)
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(aplavz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Joshua Klein - HackerJoshua Klein is a fervent hacker of all things, including wet, pulpy systems like animals and people and the way they behave.
Why you should listen
Joshua Klein will hack anything that moves -- his list includes "social systems, computer networks, institutions, consumer hardware and animal behavior." His latest project, though charmingly low-tech, has amazing implications for the human-animal interface.
Right now, Klein is working at Frog Design as a Principle Technologist, while developing mobile/social applications, health care-related systems and other tools that improve people's lives. He's the author of the novel Roo'd, which was the first modern book (after Tarzan) to be ported to the iPhone.
Joshua Klein | Speaker | TED.com