Yuval Noah Harari: Nationalism vs. globalism: the new political divide
In his book "Homo Deus," Yuval Noah Harari explores the future of humankind: the destinies we may set for ourselves and the quests we'll undertake. Full bioChris Anderson - TED Curator
After a long career in journalism and publishing, Chris Anderson became the curator of the TED Conference in 2002 and has developed it as a platform for identifying and disseminating ideas worth spreading. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
Welcome to this TED Dialogues.
that's going to be done
political upheaval.
the growing divisiveness in this country
a different kind of conversation,
on reason, listening, on understanding,
in these TED Dialogues,
pretty much like no one else
with underlying ideas
your breath away.
this book, "Sapiens."
think differently --
in the US next week.
of the next hundred years.
quite alarming.
someone better to help
is happening in the world right now.
to Yuval Noah Harari.
on Facebook and around the Web.
asking questions of Yuval,
the political scandal du jour,
of: Where are we heading?
there's a new president in power,
by telling stories.
and very attractive story
oh, what's happening is
will create paradise on Earth,
globalizing the economy
even of the Western world,
it doesn't matter.
you don't understand what's happening.
was actually a very effective story.
than from eating too little,
than from infectious diseases,
than are killed by crime and terrorism
your own worst enemy.
to be killed by yourself --
very good news, compared --
that we saw in previous eras.
of connecting the world
kind of feeling left out,
through the whole system.
of what's happened?
that people thought of politics,
has been blown up and replaced.
political model of left versus right
is between global and national,
new political models
of thinking about politics.
is that we now have global ecology,
but we have national politics,
system ineffective,
over the forces that shape our life.
to this imbalance:
and turn it back into a national economy,
many liberals out there
as kind of irredeemably bad,
or political philosophy in there
feeling or idea
something is broken there.
the ordinary person anymore.
about the ordinary person anymore,
of the political disease is correct.
I am far less certain.
is the immediate human reaction:
in the political system today,
of where humankind is going.
you see retrograde vision:
in the '50s, in the '80s, sometime,
a hundred years after Lenin,
to the Tsarist empire.
of the present is:
sometime in the past we've lost it,
you've lost your way in the city,
to the point where I felt secure
this is their gut instinct.
appealing slogan in many ways.
a very noble thing.
in promoting cooperation
organized in countries,
even thousands of years,
too much on the bad.
many positive things about patriotism,
a large number of people
the Yellow River in China --
for survival and for prosperity,
from periodical floods
anything about it,
just a tiny section of the river.
and complicated process,
to form the Chinese nation,
hundreds of thousands of people together
and regulate the river
of prosperity for everybody.
around the world.
in a fundamental way.
in the world --
this river by itself.
on a single planet,
of global cooperation,
to tackle the problems,
or whether it's technological disruption.
most of the issues,
that matter most today
but on a global scale.
of the world today
of global cooperation.
example people give.
of technological disruption.
artificial intelligence,
out of the job market --
of all the countries.
about, say, bioengineering
research in humans,
a single country, let's say the US,
continues to do it.
to do the same will be immense
high-risk, high-gain technologies.
I can't allow myself to remain behind.
effective regulations,
nobody would like to stay behind.
a constructive conversation
that the start point
that's propelled us to where we are
concerns about job loss.
way of life has gone,
that people are furious about that.
globalism, global elites,
without asking their permission,
a legitimate complaint.
is that -- so a key question is:
both now and going forward?
yes, is to shut down borders
and change trade agreements and so forth.
is not going to be that at all.
in technological questions,
but looking to the future,
who will take the jobs
on the border of California --
is going to be very ineffective.
the debates before the election,
did not even attempt to frighten people
it doesn't matter.
effective way of frightening people --
that no matter what happens
an intense debate about it,
and among the general public,
technological disruption --
but in 10, 20, 30 years --
children today in school or in college
to the job market of 2040, 2050.
to think about in 2040.
what to teach the young people.
moments in history
entered a new era, unintentionally.
technologies have been developed,
that's worse for everyone.
you give in "Sapiens"
tilling the fields,
backbreaking workday
and a much more interesting lifestyle.
phase change here,
that none of us actually wants?
technological and economic revolution
individual lives,
became much better,
became considerably worse.
in the 21st century.
will empower the human collective.
all the benefits, taking all the fruits,
finding themselves worse
might not even be human elites.
enhanced super humans.
nonorganic elites.
non-conscious algorithms.
is authority shifting away
about personal lives,
about political matters --
by an algorithm, not by a human being.
is that maybe Homo sapiens just lost it.
there is so much data,
on the African savanna
of information and data --
of the 21st century,
that may be able to handle it
is shifting from us to the algorithms.
for the first of a series of TED Dialogues
audience out there.
to some of your questions
to make the argument
because of the coming technological ...
a global conversation about this.
really believing that, I don't know,
threat, and so forth.
some people at least,
nuclear weapons, and so forth.
we are right now
need to be dialed up?
he doesn't believe in that.
who deny climate change are nationalists.
denying climate change?
about it, it's obvious --
to climate change.
in the 21st century,
then you must accept that, yes,
for patriotism,
for having special loyalties
towards your own country.
thinking of abolishing that.
and commitments
several layers of loyalty.
to humankind as a whole?
when it becomes difficult,
some questions from the audience here.
get them coming, too.
clearly made a huge difference
in income distribution in the US
to affect that?
of the underlying causes.
good idea about what to do about it,
remain on the national level,
quite a lot about now
it's not clear what "universal" is
about universal basic income,
taking away millions of jobs
my shirts and my shoes.
on Google and Apple in California,
to unemployed Bangladeshis?
you can just as well believe
and solve the problem.
and not national basic income,
are not going to go away.
just food and shelter was enough.
education is a basic human need,
Twelve years? PhD?
that can extend human life
of basic income or not?
lose their ability to be employed,
is this basic income.
very difficult ethical question.
on how the world affords it as well,
from Facebook from Lisa Larson:
World War I and World War II
to the dangers of nationalism,
than a century ago.
each other by the millions.
as far as I remember,
an MP who was murdered by some extremist.
British independence,
war of independence in human history.
will now choose to leave the UK
wanted several times --
in London was to send an army up north
and massacre the highland tribes.
the Scots vote for independence,
will not send an army up north
to kill or be killed
of the rise of nationalism
today is far, far smaller
you hear publicly worrying
outbreaks of violence in the US
things have shifted?
in the First World War yet.
don't be complacent.
the wrong decisions,
in an analogous situation to 1917
underestimate human stupidity.
forces in history,
for no obvious reason,
in human history is human wisdom.
moral psychologist Jonathan Haidt,
of global governance,
from Transparency International,
of political institutions,
of yellow here and there
some kind of global governance,
being more like Denmark
with national governments.
actually look like,
what it would look like.
are lose-lose situations.
a win-win situation like trade,
from a trade agreement,
have an interest in doing it.
like with climate change,
authority, real authority.
and what would it look like,
like ancient China
that we are facing,
some kind of real ability
on the global level
than almost anything else.
the millions of climate migrants?"
that they know either.
is another example of a problem
on a nation-by-nation basis.
problems for the future.
it's another very good case,
or in ancient times.
among many technologists, certainly,
are kind of overblown,
don't have that much influence
at this point is by science,
other than political leaders,
for leaders to do much,
about nothing here.
ability to do good is very limited,
and blow everybody up.
to reduce inequality,
in the political system today
but you can still do a lot of harm.
still a very big concern.
what's happening today,
when things were going just fine
the world or their country backwards?
it's never an individual leader.
to continue to be there.
of a single individual.
behind every such individual.
here, please, to Andrew?
about the global versus the national,
is in the hands of identity groups.
which have formed
significant authorities.
into the system,
to be made coherent
or global leadership?
of such diverse identities
in a single, monolithic identity,
more extreme versions of nationalism
to a single identity.
a lot of problems
their identities
for a global vision.
think in such exclusive terms.
a single identity for a person,
several things, I can be just that,"
diverse identities at the same time.
of what's happened in the last year
fed up with, if you like,
for want of a better term,
identities and them feeling,
I am being completely ignored here.
I was the majority"?
sparked a lot of the anger.
on fictional stories
of the basic community
and tell one another
are extremely unstable.
is a biological entity.
of soil and blood,
kind of makes a gooey mess.
it messes with your mind
that I am a combination of soil and blood.
that exist today
that's for sure.
lived in small communities
are imagined communities,
all these people.
small nation, Israel,
and perhaps have work taken away,
in one sense expanding,
may have their jobs taken away
that we could end up with
a "useless class" --
these people have no use.
we should be terrified about?
very carefully.
what the job market will look like
many new jobs will appear,
for an unemployed truck driver
as a designer of virtual worlds.
of the industrial revolution,
in one type of work,
from low-skill work
agricultural workers,
in low-skill industrial jobs,
by more and more machines,
be new jobs in the future,
designing virtual worlds.
an unemployed cashier from Wal-Mart
as a designer of virtual worlds,
Bangladeshi textile workers
the Bangladeshis today
highlighting a question
the last few months more and more.
to ask in public,
to offer in it, maybe it's yours,
some great cosmic plan,
what our role is
of our ability.
and ideologies and so forth,
is this is not true.
with a role in it for Homo sapiens.
just for a minute,
and understandable accounts
from intelligence,
that we're building in machines,
of mystery around it.
what this sentience thing is?
isn't there a chance
is to be the universe's sentient things,
and happiness and hope?
that actually help amplify that,
sentient themselves?
reading your book.
interesting question today in science
of consciousness and the mind.
in understanding the brain
and consciousness.
and consciousness,
because in humans, they go together.
is the ability to solve problems.
to feel things,
and boredom and pain and so forth.
as well -- it's not unique to humans --
and some other animals,
go together.
in places like Silicon Valley
artificial intelligence
in computer intelligence
in computer consciousness,
are going to become conscious
some cosmic role for consciousness,
chickens are conscious,
we need to broaden our horizons
the only sentient beings on Earth,
there is good reason to think
of the whole bunch.
sentient than whales,
or more sentient than cats,
in that direction, expand.
of what is it for,
sentience is for anything.
to find our role in the universe.
is to liberate ourselves from suffering.
suffer, can suffer,
in some mysterious cosmic drama.
what suffering is,
to be liberated from it.
and that was very eloquent.
of questions from the audience here,
at the back if you want the mic,
about the fictional stories
that you choose to live your life,
with the truth, like all of us?
important question,
between fiction and reality,
to tell the difference
as history progressed,
that we have created --
and corporations --
that we've created,"
between fiction and reality.
that I can say in short,
in the First World War,"
Germany has no mind.
but Germany cannot.
the dollar doesn't suffer.
really want to see reality,
what suffering is,
here that connects to this,
in a language that I cannot read.
CA: Hebrew. There you go.
really a brand-new era,
in a never-ending trend?
with this idea of post-truth.
when the hell was the era of truth?
the Middle Ages?
in an era, in a way, of post-truth.
are talking about
where you had fewer journalistic outlets,
that things were fact-checked.
of those organizations
should connect to reality in a real way,
it was a serious, earnest attempt
that had actually happened.
that's incredibly powerful
massively amplified anything
it connected to reality,
to clicks and attention,
the technology changes,
both truth and fiction and falsehood.
the truth than it was ever before.
is anything essentially new
fictions and errors.
Joseph Goebbels, didn't know
news and post-truth.
a lie often enough,
that something so big can be a lie.
has been with us for thousands of years.
with tyrannical regimes,
that there may be dark times coming.
of fake news is a disturbing sign.
I'm just saying that it's not new.
on Facebook on this question
versus nationalism.
to relinquish power?
actually, the text is so big
but I blame the text right here.
that some people talk about
can shake humankind
of global governance,
before the catastrophe,
laying the foundations
the motivation to do such a thing
interested in global governance
local identities and communities,
in the mindset of a lot of people
and it has let them down,
global governance -- no, go away!
as the ultimate poke in the eye
so scary and remote?
of it being compatible
about Homo sapiens
completely dependent
about a global system.
about Homo sapiens
on a very, very local level.
based on all kinds of imaginary stories
understanding of our species,
in the 21st century,
and the local community.
with the body itself.
of alienation and loneliness
is not global capitalism.
the last hundred years,
from their body.
constantly in touch
to look for mushrooms
to what you hear,
people are losing their ability
and their senses,
and loneliness and so forth,
some mass nationalism,
in touch with your body,
in the world also.
we may all be back in the forest soon.
one more question in the room
West Africa, and my question is:
and justify the idea of global governance
historically disenfranchised
global governance,
come from a very Westernized idea
is supposed to look like.
that idea of global
and Nigeria and Togo
that history is extremely unfair,
which are also most likely to suffer most
very clear about that.
will be in Sudan, will be in Syria,
will be in those places.
have an even greater incentive
the next wave of disruption,
or whether it's technological.
technological disruption,
will take the jobs
or in Bangladesh.
because history is so unfair
between everybody,
will be able to get away
of climate change
will not be able to.
from Cameron Taylor on Facebook:
we should want to want?"
to want to know the truth,
to our own wishes,
want to understand it.
trajectory of history,
for thousands of years
control of the world outside us
to fit our own desires.
of the other animals,
is we turn our gaze inwards,
of the world outside us
of the world inside us.
and industry in the 21st century --
of the world inside us,
bodies and brains and minds.
products of the 21st century economy.
very often they think in terms,
of my body and of my brain."
from our previous history,
the power to manipulate,
understand the complexity
the world inside us
the complexity of our mental system,
ecological disaster,
meltdown inside us.
together here --
the coming technology,
you've just outlined --
are in quite a bleak place
how would you state that?
dangerous possibilities
my job or responsibility
on the positive sides,
and philosophers and sociologists
of all these new technologies.
kinds of societies.
of the Industrial Revolution,
a communist dictatorship
or a liberal democracy.
what to do with them.
and bioengineering and all of that --
to the challenge of a new technology
will end in a nuclear catastrophe,
humans all over the world
international politics
their interests with warfare.
but many countries have.
the most important reason
declined dramatically since 1945,
more people commit suicide
margin for error.
a second option to try again.
this to a conclusion.
one thing to people here
watching online, anyone watching online:
a different kind of conversation,
with people you disagree with,
these conversations forward
in the world right now.
in a wise, wise way.
ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Yuval Noah Harari - Historian, authorIn his book "Homo Deus," Yuval Noah Harari explores the future of humankind: the destinies we may set for ourselves and the quests we'll undertake.
Why you should listen
In his book, Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow, Yuval Noah Harari explores the projects, dreams and nightmares that will shape the 21st century -- from overcoming death to creating artificial life. He maps the future and asks fundamental questions: Where do we go from here? How will we protect this fragile world from our own destructive powers? The book has sold four million copies since its publication in 2016.
Harari's previous book, Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, explores what made homo sapiens the most successful species on the planet. His answer: We are the only animal that can believe in things that exist purely in our imagination, such as gods, states, money, human rights, corporations and other fictions, and we have developed a unique ability to use these stories to unify and organize groups and ensure cooperation. Sapiens has sold eight million copies and been translated into more than 50 languages. Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg and President Barack Obama have recommended it as a must-read.
Harari lectures as a Professor of history at The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, where he specializes in world history, medieval history and military history. His current research focuses on macro-historical questions: What is the relationship between history and biology? What is the essential difference between Homo sapiens and other animals? Is there justice in history? Does history have a direction? Did people become happier as history unfolded? Harari has written for newspapers such as The Guardian, Financial Times, the Times, Nature magazine and the Wall Street Journal.
Harari's new book, 21 Lessons for the 21st Century, will take the pulse of our current global climate, focusing on the biggest questions of the present moment: What is really happening right now? What are today’s greatest challenges and choices? What should we pay attention to? The book will be published in multiple languages in September 2018.
Yuval Noah Harari | Speaker | TED.com
Chris Anderson - TED Curator
After a long career in journalism and publishing, Chris Anderson became the curator of the TED Conference in 2002 and has developed it as a platform for identifying and disseminating ideas worth spreading.
Why you should listen
Chris Anderson is the Curator of TED, a nonprofit devoted to sharing valuable ideas, primarily through the medium of 'TED Talks' -- short talks that are offered free online to a global audience.
Chris was born in a remote village in Pakistan in 1957. He spent his early years in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan, where his parents worked as medical missionaries, and he attended an American school in the Himalayas for his early education. After boarding school in Bath, England, he went on to Oxford University, graduating in 1978 with a degree in philosophy, politics and economics.
Chris then trained as a journalist, working in newspapers and radio, including two years producing a world news service in the Seychelles Islands.
Back in the UK in 1984, Chris was captivated by the personal computer revolution and became an editor at one of the UK's early computer magazines. A year later he founded Future Publishing with a $25,000 bank loan. The new company initially focused on specialist computer publications but eventually expanded into other areas such as cycling, music, video games, technology and design, doubling in size every year for seven years. In 1994, Chris moved to the United States where he built Imagine Media, publisher of Business 2.0 magazine and creator of the popular video game users website IGN. Chris eventually merged Imagine and Future, taking the combined entity public in London in 1999, under the Future name. At its peak, it published 150 magazines and websites and employed 2,000 people.
This success allowed Chris to create a private nonprofit organization, the Sapling Foundation, with the hope of finding new ways to tackle tough global issues through media, technology, entrepreneurship and, most of all, ideas. In 2001, the foundation acquired the TED Conference, then an annual meeting of luminaries in the fields of Technology, Entertainment and Design held in Monterey, California, and Chris left Future to work full time on TED.
He expanded the conference's remit to cover all topics, including science, business and key global issues, while adding a Fellows program, which now has some 300 alumni, and the TED Prize, which grants its recipients "one wish to change the world." The TED stage has become a place for thinkers and doers from all fields to share their ideas and their work, capturing imaginations, sparking conversation and encouraging discovery along the way.
In 2006, TED experimented with posting some of its talks on the Internet. Their viral success encouraged Chris to begin positioning the organization as a global media initiative devoted to 'ideas worth spreading,' part of a new era of information dissemination using the power of online video. In June 2015, the organization posted its 2,000th talk online. The talks are free to view, and they have been translated into more than 100 languages with the help of volunteers from around the world. Viewership has grown to approximately one billion views per year.
Continuing a strategy of 'radical openness,' in 2009 Chris introduced the TEDx initiative, allowing free licenses to local organizers who wished to organize their own TED-like events. More than 8,000 such events have been held, generating an archive of 60,000 TEDx talks. And three years later, the TED-Ed program was launched, offering free educational videos and tools to students and teachers.
Chris Anderson | Speaker | TED.com