TEDIndia 2009
Vilayanur Ramachandran: The neurons that shaped civilization
VS Ramachandran: Živčane stanice koje su oblikovale civilizaciju
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Neuroznanstvenik Vilayanur Ramachandran daje opći pregled fascinirajućih funkcija "zrcalnih" živčanih stanica. Tek nedavno otkrivene, ove živčane stanice omogućuju nam da usvojimo složena društvena ponašanja, od kojih su neka oblikovala osnovu ljudske civilizacije kakvu poznajemo.
Vilayanur Ramachandran - Brain expert
Neurologist V.S. Ramachandran looks deep into the brain’s most basic mechanisms. By working with those who have very specific mental disabilities caused by brain injury or stroke, he can map functions of the mind to physical structures of the brain. Full bio
Neurologist V.S. Ramachandran looks deep into the brain’s most basic mechanisms. By working with those who have very specific mental disabilities caused by brain injury or stroke, he can map functions of the mind to physical structures of the brain. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
I'd like to talk to you today about the human brain,
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Danas ću govoriti o ljudskom mozgu.
00:18
which is what we do research on at the University of California.
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To je ono što istražujemo na Sveučilištu u Kaliforniji.
00:20
Just think about this problem for a second.
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Promislite o ovom problemu.
00:22
Here is a lump of flesh, about three pounds,
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Radi se o komadu mesa teškom 1,5 kg
00:25
which you can hold in the palm of your hand.
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kojeg možete držati na dlanovima svojih ruku.
00:27
But it can contemplate the vastness of interstellar space.
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Ali on može zamišljati prostranstva međuzvijezdanog prostora.
00:31
It can contemplate the meaning of infinity,
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Može razmišljati o značenju beskonačnosti,
00:33
ask questions about the meaning of its own existence,
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postavljati pitanja o svrsi vlastitog postojanja,
00:36
about the nature of God.
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o prirodi Boga.
00:38
And this is truly the most amazing thing in the world.
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I ovo je uistinu najčudnovatija stvar na svijetu.
00:40
It's the greatest mystery confronting human beings:
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To je najveća tajna s kojom se susreću ljudska bića.
00:43
How does this all come about?
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Kako se sve ovo zbiva?
00:45
Well, the brain, as you know, is made up of neurons.
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Mozak je sastavljen od neurona.
00:47
We're looking at neurons here.
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Sada gledamo u neurone.
00:49
There are 100 billion neurons in the adult human brain.
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Mozak odraslog čovjeka ima 100 milijardi neurona.
00:52
And each neuron makes something like 1,000 to 10,000 contacts
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A svaki neuron je s 1.000 do 10.000 veza
00:55
with other neurons in the brain.
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povezan s drugim neuronima u mozgu.
00:57
And based on this, people have calculated
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Na temelju ovoga, izračunali su
00:59
that the number of permutations and combinations of brain activity
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da je broj permutacija i kombinacija u moždanoj aktivnosti
01:02
exceeds the number of elementary particles in the universe.
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veći od ukupnog broja elementarnih čestica u svemiru.
01:05
So, how do you go about studying the brain?
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Pa kako onda uopće proučavamo mozak?
01:07
One approach is to look at patients who had lesions
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Jedan način je promatranje pacijenata koji imaju
01:09
in different part of the brain, and study changes in their behavior.
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oštećene dijelove mozga i promjena u njihovom ponašanju.
01:12
This is what I spoke about in the last TED.
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O tome sam zadnji put govorio na TEDu.
01:14
Today I'll talk about a different approach,
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Danas ću govoriti o drukčijem načinu koji se svodi
01:16
which is to put electrodes in different parts of the brain,
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na postavljanje elektroda u različite dijelove mozga
01:18
and actually record the activity of individual nerve cells in the brain.
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i bilježenju aktivnosti pojedinih neurona u mozgu.
01:22
Sort of eavesdrop on the activity of nerve cells in the brain.
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Time "prisluškujemo" aktivnost pojedinih neurona.
01:26
Now, one recent discovery that has been made
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Nedavno se dogodilo otkriće
01:29
by researchers in Italy, in Parma,
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u Italiji, u Parmi,
01:31
by Giacomo Rizzolatti and his colleagues,
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Giacomo Rizzolatti i suradnici su otkrili grupu neurona
01:34
is a group of neurons called mirror neurons,
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koju su nazvali "zrcalni" neuroni,
01:36
which are on the front of the brain in the frontal lobes.
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smještenu u prednjem dijelu mozga, u frontalnim režnjevima.
01:39
Now, it turns out there are neurons
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Postoje i premotorički neuroni
01:41
which are called ordinary motor command neurons in the front of the brain,
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smješteni u prednjem dijelu mozga
01:44
which have been known for over 50 years.
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otkriveni prije više od 50 godina.
01:46
These neurons will fire when a person performs a specific action.
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Ti neuroni se aktiviraju kada osoba izvodi određenu radnju.
01:49
For example, if I do that, and reach and grab an apple,
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Na primjer, ako ja posegnem za jabukom,
01:52
a motor command neuron in the front of my brain will fire.
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premotorički neuron će se aktivirati.
01:56
If I reach out and pull an object, another neuron will fire,
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Ako povučem neki predmet, drugi neuron će se aktivirati,
01:59
commanding me to pull that object.
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nalažući mi da povučem taj predmet.
02:01
These are called motor command neurons that have been known for a long time.
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To su već dugo poznati premotorički neuroni.
02:03
But what Rizzolatti found was
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Ali Rizzolatti je otkrio
02:05
a subset of these neurons,
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da se podskupina ovih neurona,
02:07
maybe about 20 percent of them, will also fire
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oko 20% njih
02:09
when I'm looking at somebody else performing the same action.
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aktivira i dok gledam nekog drugog tko izvodi istu radnju.
02:12
So, here is a neuron that fires when I reach and grab something,
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Dakle, imamo neuron koji se aktivira dok ja posežem za nečim,
02:15
but it also fires when I watch Joe reaching and grabbing something.
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ali aktivira se i kad gledam Ivana da poseže za nečim.
02:18
And this is truly astonishing.
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Ovo je doista zadivljujuće.
02:20
Because it's as though this neuron is adopting
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Zato što ovaj neuron praktički prisvaja
02:22
the other person's point of view.
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tuđe gledište.
02:24
It's almost as though it's performing a virtual reality simulation
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Umalo kao da u virtualnoj stvarnosti vrši simulaciju radnje
02:28
of the other person's action.
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koju izvodi ta druga osoba.
02:30
Now, what is the significance of these mirror neurons?
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Dakle, što je značaj ovih "zrcalnih" neurona?
02:33
For one thing they must be involved in things like imitation and emulation.
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Oni su zasigurno uključeni u postupke poput imitiranjaj i poprimanja.
02:36
Because to imitate a complex act
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Jer da bi imitirao složenu radnju
02:39
requires my brain to adopt the other person's point of view.
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moj mozak treba prisvojiti tuđe gledište.
02:42
So, this is important for imitation and emulation.
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Prema tome, ovo je važno za imitiranje i poprimanje.
02:44
Well, why is that important?
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Ali zašto je to bitno?
02:46
Well, let's take a look at the next slide.
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Pogledajmo slijedeći slajd.
02:49
So, how do you do imitation? Why is imitation important?
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Kako se imitira? Zašto je imitiranje važno?
02:52
Mirror neurons and imitation, emulation.
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"Zrcalni" neuroni i imitiranje, poprimanje.
02:54
Now, let's look at culture, the phenomenon of human culture.
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Razmotrimo kulturu, fenomen ljudske kulture.
02:58
If you go back in time about [75,000] to 100,000 years ago,
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Ako se vratimo kroz vrijeme 75.000 do 100.000 godina,
03:02
let's look at human evolution, it turns out
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promotrimo evoluciju ljudi, vidjet ćemo
03:04
that something very important happened around 75,000 years ago.
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da se nešto jako bitno dogodilo prije 75.000 godina.
03:07
And that is, there is a sudden emergence and rapid spread
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Dogodila se iznenadna pojava i brzo širenje
03:09
of a number of skills that are unique to human beings
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velikog broja vještina, svojstvenih ljudima,
03:12
like tool use,
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poput korištenja alata,
03:14
the use of fire, the use of shelters, and, of course, language,
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vatre, skloništa i, naravno, razvoj jezika
03:17
and the ability to read somebody else's mind
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i sposobnost čitanja tuđih misli
03:19
and interpret that person's behavior.
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i interpretiranja ponašanja te osobe.
03:21
All of that happened relatively quickly.
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Sve se to dogodilo relativno brzo.
03:23
Even though the human brain had achieved its present size
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Iako se veličina ljudskog mozga nije mijenjala
03:26
almost three or four hundred thousand years ago,
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bar 300.000 do 400.000 godina,
03:28
100,000 years ago all of this happened very, very quickly.
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prije 100.000 godina sve ovo se dogodilo vrlo, vrlo brzo.
03:30
And I claim that what happened was
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A ja tvrdim da je ono što se zapravo dogodilo
03:33
the sudden emergence of a sophisticated mirror neuron system,
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iznenadna pojava sofisticiranog sustava "zrcalnih" neurona,
03:36
which allowed you to emulate and imitate other people's actions.
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koji je omogućio poprimanje i imitiranje radnji drugih ljudi.
03:38
So that when there was a sudden accidental discovery
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Tako da kada pojedini član grupe slučajno nešto otkrio,
03:42
by one member of the group, say the use of fire,
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na primjer, korištenje vatre,
03:45
or a particular type of tool, instead of dying out,
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ili nekog alata, umjesto da otkriće nestane,
03:47
this spread rapidly, horizontally across the population,
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ono se širilo brzo, horizontalno populacijom
03:50
or was transmitted vertically, down the generations.
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ili vertikalno, novim naraštajima.
03:53
So, this made evolution suddenly Lamarckian,
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Ovo je evoluciju učinilo više lamarkističkom
03:55
instead of Darwinian.
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nego darvinističkom.
03:57
Darwinian evolution is slow; it takes hundreds of thousands of years.
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Darvinistička evolucija je spora, potrebne su joj stotine tisuća godina.
04:00
A polar bear, to evolve a coat,
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Dok se polarnom medvjedu razvio ogrtač,
04:02
will take thousands of generations, maybe 100,000 years.
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trebalo je tisuće generacije, možda 100.000 godina.
04:05
A human being, a child, can just watch its parent
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Ljudsko biće, dijete, može jednostavno promatrati svog roditelja
04:08
kill another polar bear,
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dok ubija polarnog medvjeda
04:11
and skin it and put the skin on its body, fur on the body,
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i skida mu kožu da stavi krzno na svoje tijelo,
04:14
and learn it in one step. What the polar bear
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i naučiti ovo brzo. Polarnom medvjedu je trebalo
04:16
took 100,000 years to learn,
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100,000 godina da "nauči",
04:18
it can learn in five minutes, maybe 10 minutes.
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djetetu treba 10 minuta.
04:21
And then once it's learned this it spreads
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Jednom kad nauči, znanje se širi
04:23
in geometric proportion across a population.
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geometrijskom progresijom kroz populaciju.
04:26
This is the basis. The imitation of complex skills
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Ovo je osnova. Imitacija složenih vještina
04:29
is what we call culture and is the basis of civilization.
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je ono što zovemo kultura, dakle osnova civilizacije.
04:32
Now there is another kind of mirror neuron,
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Postoji još jedna vrsta zrcalnih neurona,
04:34
which is involved in something quite different.
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uključena u nešto poprilično drugačije.
04:36
And that is, there are mirror neurons,
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A to je -- postoje zrcalni neuroni --
04:38
just as there are mirror neurons for action, there are mirror neurons for touch.
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slično kao što postoje zrcalni neuroni za radnju, postoje i oni za dodir.
04:41
In other words, if somebody touches me,
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Drugim riječima, ako me netko dodirne za ruku,
04:43
my hand, neuron in the somatosensory cortex
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neuron somatozenzornog korteksa
04:45
in the sensory region of the brain fires.
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u osjetnoj regiji mozga se aktivira.
04:47
But the same neuron, in some cases, will fire
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Ali isti taj neuron se nekad aktivira
04:50
when I simply watch another person being touched.
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dok samo promatram drugu osobu dok ju se dodiruje.
04:52
So, it's empathizing the other person being touched.
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Dakle, kao da suosjeća s dugom osobom dok ju dodiruju.
04:55
So, most of them will fire when I'm touched
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Znači, većina će se aktivirati dok mene dodiruju
04:57
in different locations. Different neurons for different locations.
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po različitim mjestima. Različiti neuroni za različita mjesta.
05:00
But a subset of them will fire even when I watch somebody else
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Ali jedan dio njih se aktivira čak i kada samo gledam
05:02
being touched in the same location.
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dok se nekog drugog dodiruje po tom mjestu.
05:04
So, here again you have neurons
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Prema tome, opet imamo
05:06
which are enrolled in empathy.
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"empatične" neurone.
05:08
Now, the question then arises: If I simply watch another person being touched,
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Pitate se: "Zašto se onda, dok gledam da se nekoga dodiruje,
05:11
why do I not get confused and literally feel that touch sensation
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ne zbunim i doslovno osjetim te dodire
05:15
merely by watching somebody being touched?
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kao da netko dodiruje mene?"
05:17
I mean, I empathize with that person but I don't literally feel the touch.
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Mislim, ja susojećam s tom osobom, ali ipak ne osjećam te dodire.
05:21
Well, that's because you've got receptors in your skin,
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Pa, to je zato što u koži imate receptore
05:23
touch and pain receptors, going back into your brain
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za dodir i bol koji su povezani s vašim mozgom
05:25
and saying "Don't worry, you're not being touched.
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i koji govore: "Ne brini, tebe se ne dodiruje.
05:28
So, empathize, by all means, with the other person,
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Dakle, suosjećaj s tom osobom,
05:31
but do not actually experience the touch,
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ali nemoj doista osjetiti dodire,
05:33
otherwise you'll get confused and muddled."
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u protivnom ćeš se zbuniti."
05:35
Okay, so there is a feedback signal
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Prema tome, postoji povratni signal
05:37
that vetoes the signal of the mirror neuron
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koji nadjača signal iz zrcalnog neurona
05:39
preventing you from consciously experiencing that touch.
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što onemogući da svjesno osjetite taj dodir.
05:42
But if you remove the arm, you simply anesthetize my arm,
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Ali ako odstranite ruku ili jednostavno anestetizirate ruku
05:45
so you put an injection into my arm,
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injekcijom anestetika,
05:47
anesthetize the brachial plexus, so the arm is numb,
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pa moja ruka umrtvi
05:49
and there is no sensations coming in,
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i izgubi se osjet,
05:51
if I now watch you being touched,
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ako sada gledam da vas dodiruju,
05:53
I literally feel it in my hand.
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ja to doslovno osjećam na svojoj ruci.
05:55
In other words, you have dissolved the barrier
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Time ste maknuli barijeru
05:57
between you and other human beings.
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između vas i drugih ljudskih bića.
05:59
So, I call them Gandhi neurons, or empathy neurons.
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Ja ih zato zovem Gandhi neuroni ili empatični neuroni.
06:02
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
06:03
And this is not in some abstract metaphorical sense.
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I ovo nije nekakav apstraktni, metaforični osjet,
06:06
All that's separating you from him,
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sve što odvaja vas od nekog drugog
06:08
from the other person, is your skin.
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je vaša koža.
06:10
Remove the skin, you experience that person's touch in your mind.
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Makne li se koža, u svom umu ćete osjetiti dodire te osobe.
06:14
You've dissolved the barrier between you and other human beings.
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Maknula se barijera između vas i drugih ljudskih bića.
06:17
And this, of course, is the basis of much of Eastern philosophy,
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Ovo je zapravo osnova većeg dijela Istočnjačke filozofije.
06:19
and that is there is no real independent self,
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A to je da ne postoji pravi, neovisni ja,
06:22
aloof from other human beings, inspecting the world,
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odvojen od drugih ljudskih bića, koji promatra svijet
06:24
inspecting other people.
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i druge ljude.
06:26
You are, in fact, connected not just via Facebook and Internet,
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Zapravo ste povezani, ne samo Facebookom i internetom;
06:29
you're actually quite literally connected by your neurons.
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vi ste doslovno povezani vašim neuronima.
06:32
And there is whole chains of neurons around this room, talking to each other.
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U ovo sobi su lanci neurona koji međusobno komuniciraju.
06:35
And there is no real distinctiveness
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I nema prave razlike
06:37
of your consciousness from somebody else's consciousness.
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vaše svijesti od tuđe svijesti.
06:39
And this is not mumbo-jumbo philosophy.
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Ovo nije mambo-đambo filozofija.
06:41
It emerges from our understanding of basic neuroscience.
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To je rezultat našeg razumijevanja neuroznanosti.
06:44
So, you have a patient with a phantom limb. If the arm has been removed
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Imate pacijente s fantomskim udovima. Ako se ruka amputira
06:47
and you have a phantom, and you watch somebody else
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i imate fantomski ud, dok promatrate da nekog dodiruju,
06:49
being touched, you feel it in your phantom.
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osjećate to na svom fantomskom udu.
06:51
Now the astonishing thing is,
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Ali zapanjujuće je da,
06:53
if you have pain in your phantom limb, you squeeze the other person's hand,
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ako imate bolni fantomski ud, stisnete tuđu ruku,
06:56
massage the other person's hand,
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masirate tuđu ruku,
06:58
that relieves the pain in your phantom hand,
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to će olakšati bolove u vašoj fantomskoj ruci,
07:00
almost as though the neuron
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gotovo kao da su neuroni
07:02
were obtaining relief from merely
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primili olakšanje samo gledajući
07:04
watching somebody else being massaged.
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da se nekoga masira.
07:06
So, here you have my last slide.
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Ovo je moj posljednji slajd.
07:09
For the longest time people have regarded science
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Dugo vremena ljudi su razdvajali znanost
07:11
and humanities as being distinct.
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i društvene discipline.
07:13
C.P. Snow spoke of the two cultures:
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C. P. Snow je govorio o dvije kulture:
07:16
science on the one hand, humanities on the other;
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znanost na jednoj, a društvene discipline na drugoj strani;
07:18
never the twain shall meet.
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nikada se neće sastati.
07:20
So, I'm saying the mirror neuron system underlies the interface
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Ja kažem da sustav zrcalnih neurona čini sučelje kroz koje
07:22
allowing you to rethink about issues like consciousness,
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možete ponovno promisliti pitanja poput svjesti,
07:25
representation of self,
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onog što predstavlja vas,
07:27
what separates you from other human beings,
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što vas odvaja od drugih ljudi,
07:29
what allows you to empathize with other human beings,
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što vam omogućava da suosjećate s drugim ljudima,
07:31
and also even things like the emergence of culture and civilization,
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čak i pojavu kulture i civilizacije jedinstvene ljudima.
07:34
which is unique to human beings. Thank you.
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Hvala!
07:36
(Applause)
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(Pljesak)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Vilayanur Ramachandran - Brain expertNeurologist V.S. Ramachandran looks deep into the brain’s most basic mechanisms. By working with those who have very specific mental disabilities caused by brain injury or stroke, he can map functions of the mind to physical structures of the brain.
Why you should listen
V.S. Ramachandran is a mesmerizing speaker, able to concretely and simply describe the most complicated inner workings of the brain. His investigations into phantom limb pain, synesthesia and other brain disorders allow him to explore (and begin to answer) the most basic philosophical questions about the nature of self and human consciousness.
Ramachandran is the director of the Center for Brain and Cognition at the University of California, San Diego, and an adjunct professor at the Salk Institute. He is the author of Phantoms in the Brain (the basis for a Nova special), A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness and The Man with the Phantom Twin: Adventures in the Neuroscience of the Human Brain.
Vilayanur Ramachandran | Speaker | TED.com