TEDIndia 2009
Vilayanur Ramachandran: The neurons that shaped civilization
VS Ramachandran: Neuronii care au schimbat civilizatia
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Omul de stiinta Vilayanur Ramachandran ne arata functiile fascinante ale neuronilor oglinda. Recent descoperiti, acesti neuroni ne permit sa invatam comportamente sociale complexe, unele dintre acestea stand chiar la baza civilizatiei umane asa cum o stim acum.
Vilayanur Ramachandran - Brain expert
Neurologist V.S. Ramachandran looks deep into the brain’s most basic mechanisms. By working with those who have very specific mental disabilities caused by brain injury or stroke, he can map functions of the mind to physical structures of the brain. Full bio
Neurologist V.S. Ramachandran looks deep into the brain’s most basic mechanisms. By working with those who have very specific mental disabilities caused by brain injury or stroke, he can map functions of the mind to physical structures of the brain. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
I'd like to talk to you today about the human brain,
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Astazi vreau sa va vorbesc despre creierul uman,
00:18
which is what we do research on at the University of California.
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pe asta facem noi cercetare la Universitatea din California.
00:20
Just think about this problem for a second.
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Ganditi-va la problema asta pentru o secunda.
00:22
Here is a lump of flesh, about three pounds,
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Avem aici o halca de carne, cam de 1,4 kg,
00:25
which you can hold in the palm of your hand.
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pe care o poti tine intr-o mana.
00:27
But it can contemplate the vastness of interstellar space.
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Dar aceasta bucata de carne poate contempla imensitatea spatiului interstelar.
00:31
It can contemplate the meaning of infinity,
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Poate contempla sensul infinitului,
00:33
ask questions about the meaning of its own existence,
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poate pune intrebari despre sensul propriei existente
00:36
about the nature of God.
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si despre sensul lui Dumnezeu.
00:38
And this is truly the most amazing thing in the world.
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Iar acesta e cel mai uimitor lucru din lume.
00:40
It's the greatest mystery confronting human beings:
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Este cel mai mare mister cu care se confrunta umanitatea:
00:43
How does this all come about?
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cum s-a ajuns aici?
00:45
Well, the brain, as you know, is made up of neurons.
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Ei bine, creierul, asa cum stiti, e format din neuroni.
00:47
We're looking at neurons here.
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Ne uitam la neuroni aici.
00:49
There are 100 billion neurons in the adult human brain.
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In creierul uman adult exista 100 de miliarde de neuroni.
00:52
And each neuron makes something like 1,000 to 10,000 contacts
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Si fiecare neuron creeaza intre 1.000 si 10.000 de contacte
00:55
with other neurons in the brain.
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cu alti neuroni din creier.
00:57
And based on this, people have calculated
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Si in functie de asta, oamenii au calculat
00:59
that the number of permutations and combinations of brain activity
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ca numarul de permutari si combinatii a activitatii creierului
01:02
exceeds the number of elementary particles in the universe.
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este mai mare decat numarul de particule elementare din univers.
01:05
So, how do you go about studying the brain?
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Deci, cum incercam sa studiem creierul?
01:07
One approach is to look at patients who had lesions
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O abordare este sa ne uitam la pacienti care au avut leziuni
01:09
in different part of the brain, and study changes in their behavior.
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in diferite parti ale creierului si sa studiem modificarile lor de comportament.
01:12
This is what I spoke about in the last TED.
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Despre asta am vorbit la ultima conferinta TED.
01:14
Today I'll talk about a different approach,
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Astazi voi vorbi despre o abordare diferita.
01:16
which is to put electrodes in different parts of the brain,
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care consta in introducerea de electrozi in diferite parti ale creierului
01:18
and actually record the activity of individual nerve cells in the brain.
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si inregistrarea activitatii celulelor individuale din creier.
01:22
Sort of eavesdrop on the activity of nerve cells in the brain.
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E o metoda de a trage cu urechea la activitatea celulelor nervoase din creier.
01:26
Now, one recent discovery that has been made
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O descoperire care a fost facuta recent
01:29
by researchers in Italy, in Parma,
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de catre cercetatori din Italia, din Parma,
01:31
by Giacomo Rizzolatti and his colleagues,
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de catre Giacomo Rizzalotti si colegii lui,
01:34
is a group of neurons called mirror neurons,
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este un grup de neuroni numiti neuroni oglinda
01:36
which are on the front of the brain in the frontal lobes.
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care se afla in partea din fata a creierului in lobii frontali.
01:39
Now, it turns out there are neurons
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Se pare ca exista niste neuroni
01:41
which are called ordinary motor command neurons in the front of the brain,
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numiti neuroni obisnuiti de comanda motorie in partea din fata a creierului
01:44
which have been known for over 50 years.
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care sunt cunoscuti de peste 50 de ani.
01:46
These neurons will fire when a person performs a specific action.
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Acesti neuroni se vor activa cand o persoana executa o anumita actiune.
01:49
For example, if I do that, and reach and grab an apple,
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De exemplu, daca fac asta si ma intind sa iau un mar,
01:52
a motor command neuron in the front of my brain will fire.
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un neuron de comanda motorie din partea din fata a creierului se va activa.
01:56
If I reach out and pull an object, another neuron will fire,
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Daca ma intind si trag spre mine un obiect, un alt neuron se va activa,
01:59
commanding me to pull that object.
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instruindu-ma sa trag acel obiect.
02:01
These are called motor command neurons that have been known for a long time.
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Acesti neuroni sunt numiti neuroni de comanda motorie si sunt cunoscuti de foarte multa vreme,
02:03
But what Rizzolatti found was
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Dar Rizzalotti a descoperit ca
02:05
a subset of these neurons,
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un subset din acesti neuroni,
02:07
maybe about 20 percent of them, will also fire
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cam 20 la suta din ei, se vor activa
02:09
when I'm looking at somebody else performing the same action.
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si cand ma uit la altcineva care executa aceeasi actiune.
02:12
So, here is a neuron that fires when I reach and grab something,
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Deci, avem aici un neuron care se activeaza cand ma intind si apuc ceva,
02:15
but it also fires when I watch Joe reaching and grabbing something.
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dar se activeaza si cand ma uit la Joe intinzandu-se si apucand ceva.
02:18
And this is truly astonishing.
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Iar acest lucru este cu adevarat uimitor.
02:20
Because it's as though this neuron is adopting
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Pentru ca e ca si cum acest neuron adopta
02:22
the other person's point of view.
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punctul de vedere al celeilalte persoane.
02:24
It's almost as though it's performing a virtual reality simulation
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Este ca si cum ar realiza o simulare intr-o realitate virtuala
02:28
of the other person's action.
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a actiunilor celeilalte persoane.
02:30
Now, what is the significance of these mirror neurons?
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Deci, care este semnificatia acestor neuroni oglinda?
02:33
For one thing they must be involved in things like imitation and emulation.
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In primul rand, ei trebuie sa fie implicati in lucruri cum ar fi imitatia si emularea.
02:36
Because to imitate a complex act
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Pentru ca, pentru a imita actiuni complexe,
02:39
requires my brain to adopt the other person's point of view.
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este necesar ca propriul meu creier sa adopte punctul de vedere al celeilalte persoane.
02:42
So, this is important for imitation and emulation.
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Deci, acesti neuroni sunt importanti pentru imitatie si emulare.
02:44
Well, why is that important?
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Dar de ce este acest lucru important?
02:46
Well, let's take a look at the next slide.
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Pai haideti sa aruncam o privire la urmatorul slide.
02:49
So, how do you do imitation? Why is imitation important?
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Deci, cum imitam? De ce e imitatia importanta?
02:52
Mirror neurons and imitation, emulation.
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Neuronii oglinda si imitatia, emularea.
02:54
Now, let's look at culture, the phenomenon of human culture.
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Acum sa ne uitam la cultura, fenomenul de cultura umana,
02:58
If you go back in time about [75,000] to 100,000 years ago,
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Daca ne intoarcem in timp intre 75.000 si 100.000 de ani in urma,
03:02
let's look at human evolution, it turns out
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sa ne uitam la evolutia umana. Se pare
03:04
that something very important happened around 75,000 years ago.
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ca ceva foarte important s-a intamplat acum aproape 75.000 de ani.
03:07
And that is, there is a sudden emergence and rapid spread
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Si este vorba despre o aparatie subita si o raspandire rapida
03:09
of a number of skills that are unique to human beings
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a unui numar de abilitati unice fiintelor umane
03:12
like tool use,
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cum ar fi folosirea uneltelor,
03:14
the use of fire, the use of shelters, and, of course, language,
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folosirea focului, folosirea adaposturilor si bineinteles limbajul
03:17
and the ability to read somebody else's mind
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si abilitatea de a citi mintea altcuiva
03:19
and interpret that person's behavior.
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si de a interpreta comportamentul acelei persoane.
03:21
All of that happened relatively quickly.
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Toate acestea s-au intamplat relativ rapid.
03:23
Even though the human brain had achieved its present size
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Chiar daca creierul uman a ajuns la marimea sa curenta
03:26
almost three or four hundred thousand years ago,
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cam acum 400.000 de ani,
03:28
100,000 years ago all of this happened very, very quickly.
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acum 100.000 de ani toate acestea s-au intamplat rapid.
03:30
And I claim that what happened was
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Iar eu afirm ca ce s-a intamplat a fost
03:33
the sudden emergence of a sophisticated mirror neuron system,
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aparitia subita a unui sistem sofisticat de neuroni oglinda,
03:36
which allowed you to emulate and imitate other people's actions.
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care au permis oamenilor sa emuleze si sa imite actiunile altor oameni.
03:38
So that when there was a sudden accidental discovery
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Si atunci s-a intamplat ca o descoperire accidentala
03:42
by one member of the group, say the use of fire,
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facuta de catre un membru al grupului, sa zicem folosirea focului,
03:45
or a particular type of tool, instead of dying out,
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sau un anumit tip de unealta, care, in loc sa dispara,
03:47
this spread rapidly, horizontally across the population,
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s-a raspandit rapid, orizontal, in randul populatiei,
03:50
or was transmitted vertically, down the generations.
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sau a fost transmisa vertical, de-a lungul generatiilor.
03:53
So, this made evolution suddenly Lamarckian,
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Si asta a facut evolutia, deodata, Lamarckiana,
03:55
instead of Darwinian.
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in loc de Darwiniana.
03:57
Darwinian evolution is slow; it takes hundreds of thousands of years.
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Evolutia Darwiniana e lenta, are nevoie de sute de mii de ani.
04:00
A polar bear, to evolve a coat,
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Pentru ca un urs polar sa dezvolte blana
04:02
will take thousands of generations, maybe 100,000 years.
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e nevoie de mii de generatii, poate 100.000 de ani.
04:05
A human being, a child, can just watch its parent
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O fiinta umana, un copil, poate sa isi priveasca parintii
04:08
kill another polar bear,
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omorand un urs polar,
04:11
and skin it and put the skin on its body, fur on the body,
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jupuindu-l si punandu-si pielea lui pe corpul lor, blana pe corp,
04:14
and learn it in one step. What the polar bear
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si invatand asta intr-un singur pas. Ceea ce ursului polar
04:16
took 100,000 years to learn,
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i-a luat 100.000 de ani sa invete
04:18
it can learn in five minutes, maybe 10 minutes.
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copilul poate invata in 5 minute, poate 10 minute.
04:21
And then once it's learned this it spreads
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Si, odata invatata metoda, aceasta se raspandeste
04:23
in geometric proportion across a population.
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in proportie geometrica in populatie.
04:26
This is the basis. The imitation of complex skills
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Acesta este baza. Imitatia abilitatilor complexe
04:29
is what we call culture and is the basis of civilization.
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este ceea ce numim cultura si este fundamentul civilizatiei.
04:32
Now there is another kind of mirror neuron,
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Dar mai este inca un tip de neuron oglinda,
04:34
which is involved in something quite different.
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care este implicat in ceva total diferit.
04:36
And that is, there are mirror neurons,
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Adica exista neuroni oglinda care,
04:38
just as there are mirror neurons for action, there are mirror neurons for touch.
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la fel ca neuronii oglinda pentru miscare, sunt neuroni oglinda pentru atingere.
04:41
In other words, if somebody touches me,
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Cu alte cuvinte, daca cineva ma atinge,
04:43
my hand, neuron in the somatosensory cortex
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pe mana, un neuron din cortexul somatosenzorial
04:45
in the sensory region of the brain fires.
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din regiunea senzoriala a creierului se activeaza.
04:47
But the same neuron, in some cases, will fire
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Dar acelasi neuron, se va activa uneori
04:50
when I simply watch another person being touched.
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chiar si atunci cand privesc o alta persoana fiind atinsa.
04:52
So, it's empathizing the other person being touched.
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Este deci empatizarea cu acea persoana care este atinsa.
04:55
So, most of them will fire when I'm touched
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Deci, majoritatea neuronilor se vor activa cand sunt atins
04:57
in different locations. Different neurons for different locations.
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in diferite locuri. Neuroni diferiti pentru locuri diferite.
05:00
But a subset of them will fire even when I watch somebody else
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Dar o parte dintre ei se vor activa cand privesc o alta persoana
05:02
being touched in the same location.
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care este atinsa in acelasi loc.
05:04
So, here again you have neurons
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Deci, avem din nou niste neuroni
05:06
which are enrolled in empathy.
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care joaca un rol in empatie.
05:08
Now, the question then arises: If I simply watch another person being touched,
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Acum ne punem intrebarea: daca ma uit la o alta persoana cum e atinsa,
05:11
why do I not get confused and literally feel that touch sensation
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atunci de ce nu devin confuz si chiar sa simt acea senzatie de atingere
05:15
merely by watching somebody being touched?
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doar privind pe altcineva fiind atins?
05:17
I mean, I empathize with that person but I don't literally feel the touch.
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Vreau sa spun ca empatizez cu persoana respectiva, insa nu simt cu adevarat atingerea.
05:21
Well, that's because you've got receptors in your skin,
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Pai asta se intampla din cauza ca avem receptori in piele,
05:23
touch and pain receptors, going back into your brain
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receptori de atingere si durere, care sunt conectati la creier
05:25
and saying "Don't worry, you're not being touched.
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si care spun sa nu te ingrijorezi, nu esti atins.
05:28
So, empathize, by all means, with the other person,
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Deci poti sa empatizezi cu cealalta persona
05:31
but do not actually experience the touch,
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dar nu o sa simti cu adevarat atingerea
05:33
otherwise you'll get confused and muddled."
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pentru ca altfel vei deveni confuz si zapacit.
05:35
Okay, so there is a feedback signal
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Bun, deci exista un semnal de feedback
05:37
that vetoes the signal of the mirror neuron
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care are precedenta in fata semnalului de la neuronul oglinda,
05:39
preventing you from consciously experiencing that touch.
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impiedicandu-te sa simti atingerea in mod constient.
05:42
But if you remove the arm, you simply anesthetize my arm,
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Dar daca elimini bratul, daca pur si simplu imi anestizez bratul,
05:45
so you put an injection into my arm,
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imi faci o injectie in brat,
05:47
anesthetize the brachial plexus, so the arm is numb,
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si anesteziezi plexul brahial, iar bratul meu e amortit
05:49
and there is no sensations coming in,
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si nu mai exista nici un semnal venind de la el,
05:51
if I now watch you being touched,
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daca acum ma uit la altcineva cand e atins,
05:53
I literally feel it in my hand.
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voi simti senzatia pe bratul meu.
05:55
In other words, you have dissolved the barrier
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Cu alte cuvinte, am dizolvat bariera
05:57
between you and other human beings.
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dintre mine si alte fiinte umane.
05:59
So, I call them Gandhi neurons, or empathy neurons.
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De asta ii numesc neuroni Ghandi, sau neuroni de empatie.
06:02
(Laughter)
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(Rasete)
06:03
And this is not in some abstract metaphorical sense.
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Si nu spun asta intr-un sens abstract sau metaforic.
06:06
All that's separating you from him,
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Tot ce te separa pe tine de el,
06:08
from the other person, is your skin.
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de cealalta persoana, este doar pielea.
06:10
Remove the skin, you experience that person's touch in your mind.
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Daca elimini pielea, vei simti atingerea pe care o simte celalalta persoana in propriul creier,
06:14
You've dissolved the barrier between you and other human beings.
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Ai dizolvat bariera dintre tine si restul fiintelor umane.
06:17
And this, of course, is the basis of much of Eastern philosophy,
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Iar acest lucru, evident, este fundamentul unei mari parti a filosofiei Estice.
06:19
and that is there is no real independent self,
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Si anume ca nu exista un 'eu' independent,
06:22
aloof from other human beings, inspecting the world,
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separat de restul fiintelor umane, inspectand lumea,
06:24
inspecting other people.
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inspectand alte persoane.
06:26
You are, in fact, connected not just via Facebook and Internet,
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Esti de fapt conectat, si nu doar pe Facebook sau pe internet,
06:29
you're actually quite literally connected by your neurons.
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esti de fapt conectat chiar de proprii neuroni.
06:32
And there is whole chains of neurons around this room, talking to each other.
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Si chiar acum exista un lant de neuroni in aceasta incapere, vorbind unii cu altii.
06:35
And there is no real distinctiveness
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Si nu exista o diferentiere reala
06:37
of your consciousness from somebody else's consciousness.
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intre constiinta ta si constiinta altcuiva.
06:39
And this is not mumbo-jumbo philosophy.
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Si asta nu e vreo filosofie cu bla-bla.
06:41
It emerges from our understanding of basic neuroscience.
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Reiese din simpla intelegere a neurostiintei.
06:44
So, you have a patient with a phantom limb. If the arm has been removed
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Deci avem un pacient cu un membru fantoma. Daca bratul a fost inlaturat
06:47
and you have a phantom, and you watch somebody else
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si ai un brat fantoma si privesti pe altcineva
06:49
being touched, you feel it in your phantom.
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fiind atins, vei simti atingerea pe bratul fantoma.
06:51
Now the astonishing thing is,
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Un lucru fascinant este ca,
06:53
if you have pain in your phantom limb, you squeeze the other person's hand,
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daca te doare membrul fantoma, il strangi de mana pe celalalt,
06:56
massage the other person's hand,
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faci un masaj mainii celeilalte persoane
06:58
that relieves the pain in your phantom hand,
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si asta va reduce durerea din bratul tau fantoma,
07:00
almost as though the neuron
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aproape ca si cum neuronii
07:02
were obtaining relief from merely
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ar obtine alinare
07:04
watching somebody else being massaged.
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doar uitandu-se la altcineva primind un masaj.
07:06
So, here you have my last slide.
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Si acum ne uitam la ultimul slide.
07:09
For the longest time people have regarded science
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De foarte mult timp oamenii au privit stiintele reale
07:11
and humanities as being distinct.
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si cele umane in mod distinct.
07:13
C.P. Snow spoke of the two cultures:
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C.P. Snow vorbea de doua culturi:
07:16
science on the one hand, humanities on the other;
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stiintele exacte pe de o parte, cele umane pe de alta,
07:18
never the twain shall meet.
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niciodata cele doua nu se vor intalni.
07:20
So, I'm saying the mirror neuron system underlies the interface
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Eu spun ca sistemul de neuroni oglinda sta la baza unui interfete,
07:22
allowing you to rethink about issues like consciousness,
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permitandu-ne sa ne gandim din nou la probleme cum ar fi constiinta,
07:25
representation of self,
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reprezentarea eu-ului,
07:27
what separates you from other human beings,
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ce ne separa pe noi de alte fiinte umane,
07:29
what allows you to empathize with other human beings,
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ce ne permite sa empatizam cu alte fiinte umane,
07:31
and also even things like the emergence of culture and civilization,
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si chiar lucruri cum ar fi aparitia culturii si civilizatiei,
07:34
which is unique to human beings. Thank you.
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care sunt unice fiintelor umane. Multumesc.
07:36
(Applause)
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(Aplauze)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Vilayanur Ramachandran - Brain expertNeurologist V.S. Ramachandran looks deep into the brain’s most basic mechanisms. By working with those who have very specific mental disabilities caused by brain injury or stroke, he can map functions of the mind to physical structures of the brain.
Why you should listen
V.S. Ramachandran is a mesmerizing speaker, able to concretely and simply describe the most complicated inner workings of the brain. His investigations into phantom limb pain, synesthesia and other brain disorders allow him to explore (and begin to answer) the most basic philosophical questions about the nature of self and human consciousness.
Ramachandran is the director of the Center for Brain and Cognition at the University of California, San Diego, and an adjunct professor at the Salk Institute. He is the author of Phantoms in the Brain (the basis for a Nova special), A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness and The Man with the Phantom Twin: Adventures in the Neuroscience of the Human Brain.
Vilayanur Ramachandran | Speaker | TED.com