TEDIndia 2009
Vilayanur Ramachandran: The neurons that shaped civilization
V.S.Ramačandran: Neuroni koji su oblikovali civilizaciju
Filmed:
Readability: 4.5
2,250,451 views
Neuronaučnik Vilajanur Ramačandran daje opšti pregled fascinantnih funkcija "ogledalnih" neurona. Nedavno otkriveni, ovi neuroni nam omogućuju učenje složenih društvenih ponašanja, od kojih su neka oblikovala temelje ljudske civilizacije onakve kakvu je poznajemo.
Vilayanur Ramachandran - Brain expert
Neurologist V.S. Ramachandran looks deep into the brain’s most basic mechanisms. By working with those who have very specific mental disabilities caused by brain injury or stroke, he can map functions of the mind to physical structures of the brain. Full bio
Neurologist V.S. Ramachandran looks deep into the brain’s most basic mechanisms. By working with those who have very specific mental disabilities caused by brain injury or stroke, he can map functions of the mind to physical structures of the brain. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
I'd like to talk to you today about the human brain,
0
0
3000
Želeo bih danas da vam govorim o ljudskom mozgu -
00:18
which is what we do research on at the University of California.
1
3000
2000
to je ono što istražujemo na Univerzitetu u Kaliforniji.
00:20
Just think about this problem for a second.
2
5000
2000
Razmislite na trenutak o ovom problemu:
00:22
Here is a lump of flesh, about three pounds,
3
7000
3000
Ovde imamo komad mesa, težak otprlike 1,5 kg,
00:25
which you can hold in the palm of your hand.
4
10000
2000
koji možete držati na dlanu svoje ruke.
00:27
But it can contemplate the vastness of interstellar space.
5
12000
4000
Ali on može razmišljati o beskrajnosti međuzvezdanog prostora.
00:31
It can contemplate the meaning of infinity,
6
16000
2000
Može razmišljati o značenju beskonačnosti,
00:33
ask questions about the meaning of its own existence,
7
18000
3000
postavljati pitanja o smislu vlastitog postojanja,
00:36
about the nature of God.
8
21000
2000
o prirodi Boga.
00:38
And this is truly the most amazing thing in the world.
9
23000
2000
I ovo je zaista najneverovatnija stvar na svetu.
00:40
It's the greatest mystery confronting human beings:
10
25000
3000
To je najveća tajna sa kojom se ljudska bića susreću.
00:43
How does this all come about?
11
28000
2000
Kako se sve ovo događa?
00:45
Well, the brain, as you know, is made up of neurons.
12
30000
2000
Pa, mozak je, kao što znate, sastavljen od neurona.
00:47
We're looking at neurons here.
13
32000
2000
Ovde vidimo neurone.
00:49
There are 100 billion neurons in the adult human brain.
14
34000
3000
Mozak odraslog čoveka ima 100 milijardi neurona.
00:52
And each neuron makes something like 1,000 to 10,000 contacts
15
37000
3000
I svaki neuron stvara otprilike od 1,000 do 10,000 veza
00:55
with other neurons in the brain.
16
40000
2000
sa drugim neuronima u mozgu.
00:57
And based on this, people have calculated
17
42000
2000
Na osnovu ovog, ljudi su izračunali
00:59
that the number of permutations and combinations of brain activity
18
44000
3000
da broj permutacija i kombinacija moždane aktivnosti
01:02
exceeds the number of elementary particles in the universe.
19
47000
3000
premašuje broj elementarnih čestica u univerzumu.
01:05
So, how do you go about studying the brain?
20
50000
2000
Pa, kako uopšte krenuti sa ispitivanjem mozga?
01:07
One approach is to look at patients who had lesions
21
52000
2000
Jedan od pristupa jeste posmatranje pacijenata koji su imali povrede
01:09
in different part of the brain, and study changes in their behavior.
22
54000
3000
u različitim delovima mozga, i ispitivanje promena u njihovom ponašanju.
01:12
This is what I spoke about in the last TED.
23
57000
2000
O ovome sam govorio u poslednjem TED-u.
01:14
Today I'll talk about a different approach,
24
59000
2000
Danas ću govoriti o drugačijem pristupu
01:16
which is to put electrodes in different parts of the brain,
25
61000
2000
koji se sastoji u primeni elektroda na različite delove mozga,
01:18
and actually record the activity of individual nerve cells in the brain.
26
63000
4000
i beleženju aktivnosti pojedinačnih nervnih ćelija u mozgu.
01:22
Sort of eavesdrop on the activity of nerve cells in the brain.
27
67000
4000
Nešto kao "prisluškivanje" aktivnosti nervnih ćelija u mozgu.
01:26
Now, one recent discovery that has been made
28
71000
3000
Jedno od skorašnjih otkrića koje su napravili
01:29
by researchers in Italy, in Parma,
29
74000
2000
istraživači u Italiji, u Parmi,
01:31
by Giacomo Rizzolatti and his colleagues,
30
76000
3000
Đakomo Ricolati i njegove kolege,
01:34
is a group of neurons called mirror neurons,
31
79000
2000
jeste grupa neurona nazvana "ogledalni neuroni",
01:36
which are on the front of the brain in the frontal lobes.
32
81000
3000
koji se nalaze u prednjem delu mozga u frontalnom režnju.
01:39
Now, it turns out there are neurons
33
84000
2000
Ispostavlja se da postoje neuroni
01:41
which are called ordinary motor command neurons in the front of the brain,
34
86000
3000
koji se nazivaju obični neuroni za motorne komande, u prednjem delu mozga,
01:44
which have been known for over 50 years.
35
89000
2000
koji su poznati više od 50 godina.
01:46
These neurons will fire when a person performs a specific action.
36
91000
3000
Ovi neuroni se aktiviraju kada osoba izvede određenu radnju.
01:49
For example, if I do that, and reach and grab an apple,
37
94000
3000
Na primer, ako ja uradim ovo, i posegnem i zgrabim jabuku,
01:52
a motor command neuron in the front of my brain will fire.
38
97000
4000
motorni komandni neuron u prednjem delu mog mozga će se aktivirati.
01:56
If I reach out and pull an object, another neuron will fire,
39
101000
3000
Ako posegnem i privučem sebi predmet, aktiviraće se drugi neuron,
01:59
commanding me to pull that object.
40
104000
2000
nalažući mi da privučem sebi predmet.
02:01
These are called motor command neurons that have been known for a long time.
41
106000
2000
Ovo su tzv. motorni komandni neuroni koji su poznati već duže vreme.
02:03
But what Rizzolatti found was
42
108000
2000
Ali, ono što je Ricolati otkrio jeste
02:05
a subset of these neurons,
43
110000
2000
da će se podskup ovih neurona,
02:07
maybe about 20 percent of them, will also fire
44
112000
2000
možda otprilike njih 20 procenata, takođe aktivirati
02:09
when I'm looking at somebody else performing the same action.
45
114000
3000
kada gledam nekog drugog kako izvodi istu radnju.
02:12
So, here is a neuron that fires when I reach and grab something,
46
117000
3000
Dakle, imamo neuron koji se aktivira kada ja posegnem i zgrabim nešto
02:15
but it also fires when I watch Joe reaching and grabbing something.
47
120000
3000
ali se takođe aktivira kada posmatram Jovu dok poseže i grabi nešto.
02:18
And this is truly astonishing.
48
123000
2000
I ovo je zaista zadivljujuće.
02:20
Because it's as though this neuron is adopting
49
125000
2000
Jer izgleda kao da ovaj neuron usvaja
02:22
the other person's point of view.
50
127000
2000
tačku gledišta druge osobe.
02:24
It's almost as though it's performing a virtual reality simulation
51
129000
4000
To je skoro kao da u virtuelnoj stvarnosti izvodi simulaciju
02:28
of the other person's action.
52
133000
2000
radnje druge osobe.
02:30
Now, what is the significance of these mirror neurons?
53
135000
3000
Dakle, kakav je značaj ovih "ogledalnih" neurona?
02:33
For one thing they must be involved in things like imitation and emulation.
54
138000
3000
Jedno je sigurno, oni moraju biti uključeni u postupke poput imitiranja i "poprimanja".
02:36
Because to imitate a complex act
55
141000
3000
Jer da bi imitirao složen čin,
02:39
requires my brain to adopt the other person's point of view.
56
144000
3000
mom je mozgu potrebno da usvoji tačku gledišta druge osobe.
02:42
So, this is important for imitation and emulation.
57
147000
2000
Dakle, ovo je važno za imitaciju i "poprimanje".
02:44
Well, why is that important?
58
149000
2000
Pa, zašto je to važno?
02:46
Well, let's take a look at the next slide.
59
151000
3000
Pogledajmo sledeći slajd.
02:49
So, how do you do imitation? Why is imitation important?
60
154000
3000
Dakle, kako se obavlja imitacija? Zašto je imitacija važna?
02:52
Mirror neurons and imitation, emulation.
61
157000
2000
Ogledalni neuroni, imitacija, poprimanje.
02:54
Now, let's look at culture, the phenomenon of human culture.
62
159000
4000
Pogledajmo sada kulturu, tj. fenomen ljudske kulture.
02:58
If you go back in time about [75,000] to 100,000 years ago,
63
163000
4000
Ako se vratimo unazad kroz vreme, otprilike pre oko 75 000 do 100 000 godina,
03:02
let's look at human evolution, it turns out
64
167000
2000
i pogledamo evoluciju čoveka, ispostavlja se
03:04
that something very important happened around 75,000 years ago.
65
169000
3000
da se nešto veoma važno desilo pre otprilike 75 000 godina.
03:07
And that is, there is a sudden emergence and rapid spread
66
172000
2000
A to je, desila se iznenadna pojava i brzo širenje
03:09
of a number of skills that are unique to human beings
67
174000
3000
brojnih veština, jedinstvenih samo ljudskim bićima,
03:12
like tool use,
68
177000
2000
kao upotreba oruđa,
03:14
the use of fire, the use of shelters, and, of course, language,
69
179000
3000
upotreba vatre, skloništa i, naravno, jezika,
03:17
and the ability to read somebody else's mind
70
182000
2000
kao i sposobnost čitanja tuđeg uma
03:19
and interpret that person's behavior.
71
184000
2000
i tumačenja ponašanja te osobe.
03:21
All of that happened relatively quickly.
72
186000
2000
Sve se ovo desilo relativno brzo.
03:23
Even though the human brain had achieved its present size
73
188000
3000
Iako je svoju današnju veličinu ljudski mozak dostigao
03:26
almost three or four hundred thousand years ago,
74
191000
2000
otprilike pre tri ili četiri stotine hiljade godina,
03:28
100,000 years ago all of this happened very, very quickly.
75
193000
2000
pre oko 100 000 godina, sve se ovo desilo veoma veoma brzo.
03:30
And I claim that what happened was
76
195000
3000
I tvrdim da ono što se desilo jeste
03:33
the sudden emergence of a sophisticated mirror neuron system,
77
198000
3000
iznenadna pojava sofisticiranog sistema "ogledalnih" neurona,
03:36
which allowed you to emulate and imitate other people's actions.
78
201000
2000
koji vam je omogućila da poprimite i imitirate radnje drugih osoba.
03:38
So that when there was a sudden accidental discovery
79
203000
4000
Tako da kada se dogodilo iznenadno slučajno otkriće
03:42
by one member of the group, say the use of fire,
80
207000
3000
od strane jednog člana grupe, recimo upotreba vatre,
03:45
or a particular type of tool, instead of dying out,
81
210000
2000
ili određenog tipa oruđa, umesto da nestane
03:47
this spread rapidly, horizontally across the population,
82
212000
3000
ono se brzo širilo, horizontalnim putem kroz populaciju
03:50
or was transmitted vertically, down the generations.
83
215000
3000
ili se prenosilo vertikalno, kroz generacije.
03:53
So, this made evolution suddenly Lamarckian,
84
218000
2000
Tako da je ovo načinilo evoluciju lamarkističkom
03:55
instead of Darwinian.
85
220000
2000
umesto darvinovskom.
03:57
Darwinian evolution is slow; it takes hundreds of thousands of years.
86
222000
3000
Darvinovska evolucija je spora; treba joj stotine hiljada godina.
04:00
A polar bear, to evolve a coat,
87
225000
2000
Da bi polarnom medvedu evoluirao ogrtač,
04:02
will take thousands of generations, maybe 100,000 years.
88
227000
3000
potrebne su na hiljade naraštaja, možda čak i 100,000 godina.
04:05
A human being, a child, can just watch its parent
89
230000
3000
Ljudsko biće, dete, može samo posmatrajući svog roditelja
04:08
kill another polar bear,
90
233000
3000
dok ubija nekog polarnog medveda
04:11
and skin it and put the skin on its body, fur on the body,
91
236000
3000
i skida mu kožu da stavi krzno na svoje telo,
04:14
and learn it in one step. What the polar bear
92
239000
2000
i da to nauči u jednom koraku. Što za šta je polarnom medvedu
04:16
took 100,000 years to learn,
93
241000
2000
potrebno 100,000 godina da nauči,
04:18
it can learn in five minutes, maybe 10 minutes.
94
243000
3000
dete može da nauči za pet, možda 10 minuta.
04:21
And then once it's learned this it spreads
95
246000
2000
A jednom kada se nauči, širi se
04:23
in geometric proportion across a population.
96
248000
3000
u geometrijskim razmerama kroz populaciju.
04:26
This is the basis. The imitation of complex skills
97
251000
3000
Ovo je osnova. Imitacija složenih veština
04:29
is what we call culture and is the basis of civilization.
98
254000
3000
je ono što zovemo kulturom i to je osnova civilizacije.
04:32
Now there is another kind of mirror neuron,
99
257000
2000
Postoji još jedna vrsta "ogledalnog" neurona,
04:34
which is involved in something quite different.
100
259000
2000
koja je uključena u nešto sasvim drugačije.
04:36
And that is, there are mirror neurons,
101
261000
2000
A to je, postoje "ogledalni" neuroni,
04:38
just as there are mirror neurons for action, there are mirror neurons for touch.
102
263000
3000
kao što postoje ogledalni neuroni za radnje, postoje ogledalni neuroni za dodir.
04:41
In other words, if somebody touches me,
103
266000
2000
Drugim rečima, ako me neko dodirne,
04:43
my hand, neuron in the somatosensory cortex
104
268000
2000
moju ruku, neuroni u somatosenzornom korteksu
04:45
in the sensory region of the brain fires.
105
270000
2000
u senzornom regionu mozga se aktiviraju.
04:47
But the same neuron, in some cases, will fire
106
272000
3000
Ali isti neuroni će se u pojedinim slučajevima aktivirati
04:50
when I simply watch another person being touched.
107
275000
2000
kada je jednostavno gledam da je druga osoba dodirnuta.
04:52
So, it's empathizing the other person being touched.
108
277000
3000
Dakle, kao da saoseća drugu osobu koja biva dodirnuta.
04:55
So, most of them will fire when I'm touched
109
280000
2000
Tako će se većina njih aktivirati kada sam dodirnut
04:57
in different locations. Different neurons for different locations.
110
282000
3000
na različitim mestima. Postoje različiti neuroni za različita mesta.
05:00
But a subset of them will fire even when I watch somebody else
111
285000
2000
Ali podskup njih će se aktivirati čak i kad gledam nekog drugog
05:02
being touched in the same location.
112
287000
2000
koji biva dodirnut na istim mestima.
05:04
So, here again you have neurons
113
289000
2000
Dakle, sada imate neurone
05:06
which are enrolled in empathy.
114
291000
2000
koji imaju svoju ulogu u empatiji.
05:08
Now, the question then arises: If I simply watch another person being touched,
115
293000
3000
Pitanje se sada postavlja: ako ja prosto gledam drugu osobu koja biva dodirnuta,
05:11
why do I not get confused and literally feel that touch sensation
116
296000
4000
kako ne postanem zbunjen i bukvalno osetim taj oset dodira
05:15
merely by watching somebody being touched?
117
300000
2000
samo gledanjem drugog koji biva dodirnut?
05:17
I mean, I empathize with that person but I don't literally feel the touch.
118
302000
4000
Hoću reći, ja saosećam sa osobom ali ne osećam bukvalno dodir.
05:21
Well, that's because you've got receptors in your skin,
119
306000
2000
Pa, to je stoga što imate receptore u vašoj koži,
05:23
touch and pain receptors, going back into your brain
120
308000
2000
receptore za dodir i bol, koji se vraćaju u vaš mozak
05:25
and saying "Don't worry, you're not being touched.
121
310000
3000
i govore, "Ne brini, nisi zaista dodirivan.
05:28
So, empathize, by all means, with the other person,
122
313000
3000
Tako da saosećaj slobodno sa drugom osobom,
05:31
but do not actually experience the touch,
123
316000
2000
ali nemoj stvarno da iskusiš dodir
05:33
otherwise you'll get confused and muddled."
124
318000
2000
jer u suprotnom ćeš biti zbunjen."
05:35
Okay, so there is a feedback signal
125
320000
2000
U redu, postoji dakle povratni signal
05:37
that vetoes the signal of the mirror neuron
126
322000
2000
koji nadjačava signal ogledalnih neurona,
05:39
preventing you from consciously experiencing that touch.
127
324000
3000
sprečavajući vas da svesno iskusite taj dodir.
05:42
But if you remove the arm, you simply anesthetize my arm,
128
327000
3000
Međutim, ako uklonite ruku ili prosto anestezirate moju ruku
05:45
so you put an injection into my arm,
129
330000
2000
injekcijom anestetika
05:47
anesthetize the brachial plexus, so the arm is numb,
130
332000
2000
anestezirate brahijalni pleksus, tako da se moja ruka umrtvi
05:49
and there is no sensations coming in,
131
334000
2000
i tako da joj ne pristižu nikakvi oseti,
05:51
if I now watch you being touched,
132
336000
2000
ako sada ja vas gledam dok vas dodiruju,
05:53
I literally feel it in my hand.
133
338000
2000
bukvalno ću osetiti to u mojoj ruci.
05:55
In other words, you have dissolved the barrier
134
340000
2000
Drugim rečima, uklonili ste barijeru
05:57
between you and other human beings.
135
342000
2000
između vas i drugih ljudskih bića.
05:59
So, I call them Gandhi neurons, or empathy neurons.
136
344000
3000
Tako da ih ja zovem Gandi-neuroni, ili saosećajni neuroni.
06:02
(Laughter)
137
347000
1000
(Smeh)
06:03
And this is not in some abstract metaphorical sense.
138
348000
3000
I ovo se sve ne dešava u nekom apstraktnom, metaforičkom smislu,
06:06
All that's separating you from him,
139
351000
2000
sve ono što odvaja vas od njega,
06:08
from the other person, is your skin.
140
353000
2000
od druge osobe, jeste vaša koža.
06:10
Remove the skin, you experience that person's touch in your mind.
141
355000
4000
Uklonite kožu, i doživećete dodir te osobe u svom umu.
06:14
You've dissolved the barrier between you and other human beings.
142
359000
3000
Uklonili ste barijeru između vas i drugih ljudskih bića.
06:17
And this, of course, is the basis of much of Eastern philosophy,
143
362000
2000
Ovo je, naravno, u osnovi većine istočnih filozofija,
06:19
and that is there is no real independent self,
144
364000
3000
to da ne postoji stvarno nezavisno jastvo,
06:22
aloof from other human beings, inspecting the world,
145
367000
2000
odvojeno od drugih ljudskih bića, koja posmatraju svet,
06:24
inspecting other people.
146
369000
2000
koje posmatraju ljude.
06:26
You are, in fact, connected not just via Facebook and Internet,
147
371000
3000
Vi ste, u stvari, povezani ne samo putem fejsbuka i interneta;
06:29
you're actually quite literally connected by your neurons.
148
374000
3000
vi ste zapravo sasvim bukvalno povezani putem vaših neurona.
06:32
And there is whole chains of neurons around this room, talking to each other.
149
377000
3000
U ovoj sobi su čitavi lanci neurona koji razgovaraju međusobno.
06:35
And there is no real distinctiveness
150
380000
2000
I ne postoji stvarna razlika
06:37
of your consciousness from somebody else's consciousness.
151
382000
2000
vaše svesti i svesti nekog drugog.
06:39
And this is not mumbo-jumbo philosophy.
152
384000
2000
Ovo sve nije neka mambo-džambo filozofija.
06:41
It emerges from our understanding of basic neuroscience.
153
386000
3000
Ovo dolazi iz nešeg razumevanja osnovne neurološke nauke.
06:44
So, you have a patient with a phantom limb. If the arm has been removed
154
389000
3000
Tako da, ako ste pacijent sa fantomskim udom, ako vam je ruka amputirana
06:47
and you have a phantom, and you watch somebody else
155
392000
2000
i imate fantomsku ruku, i gledate nekog drugog
06:49
being touched, you feel it in your phantom.
156
394000
2000
kako biva dodirnut, osetićete to u vašoj fantomskoj ruci.
06:51
Now the astonishing thing is,
157
396000
2000
Izvanredno je to da
06:53
if you have pain in your phantom limb, you squeeze the other person's hand,
158
398000
3000
ako osećate bol u vašem fantomskom udu, pritisnete ruku druge osobe,
06:56
massage the other person's hand,
159
401000
2000
izmasirate ruku druge osobe,
06:58
that relieves the pain in your phantom hand,
160
403000
2000
i to će opustiti bol u vašem fantomskom udu,
07:00
almost as though the neuron
161
405000
2000
kao da su neuroni,
07:02
were obtaining relief from merely
162
407000
2000
primili olakšanje samo
07:04
watching somebody else being massaged.
163
409000
2000
gledajući nekog drugog kako biva masiran.
07:06
So, here you have my last slide.
164
411000
3000
Ovo je moj poslednji slajd.
07:09
For the longest time people have regarded science
165
414000
2000
Dugo vremena su ljudi smatrali nauku
07:11
and humanities as being distinct.
166
416000
2000
i humanističke discipline kao razdvojene.
07:13
C.P. Snow spoke of the two cultures:
167
418000
3000
C.P. Snou je govorio o dve kulture:
07:16
science on the one hand, humanities on the other;
168
421000
2000
nauci sa jedne strane, humanističkim disciplinama sa druge;
07:18
never the twain shall meet.
169
423000
2000
nikad se one ne mogu susresti.
07:20
So, I'm saying the mirror neuron system underlies the interface
170
425000
2000
Ja tvrdim da sistem ogledalnih neurona čini sučelje
07:22
allowing you to rethink about issues like consciousness,
171
427000
3000
i omogućava nam da ponovo promislimo pitanja poput svesti,
07:25
representation of self,
172
430000
2000
reprezentacije jastva,
07:27
what separates you from other human beings,
173
432000
2000
ono što odvaja nas od drugih ljudskih bića,
07:29
what allows you to empathize with other human beings,
174
434000
2000
ono što nam omogućava da saosećamo sa drugim ljudskim bićima,
07:31
and also even things like the emergence of culture and civilization,
175
436000
3000
a takođe i svari kao što su pojava kulture i civilizacije,
07:34
which is unique to human beings. Thank you.
176
439000
2000
koji su svojstveni ljudskim bićima. Hvala vam.
07:36
(Applause)
177
441000
2000
(Aplauz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Vilayanur Ramachandran - Brain expertNeurologist V.S. Ramachandran looks deep into the brain’s most basic mechanisms. By working with those who have very specific mental disabilities caused by brain injury or stroke, he can map functions of the mind to physical structures of the brain.
Why you should listen
V.S. Ramachandran is a mesmerizing speaker, able to concretely and simply describe the most complicated inner workings of the brain. His investigations into phantom limb pain, synesthesia and other brain disorders allow him to explore (and begin to answer) the most basic philosophical questions about the nature of self and human consciousness.
Ramachandran is the director of the Center for Brain and Cognition at the University of California, San Diego, and an adjunct professor at the Salk Institute. He is the author of Phantoms in the Brain (the basis for a Nova special), A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness and The Man with the Phantom Twin: Adventures in the Neuroscience of the Human Brain.
Vilayanur Ramachandran | Speaker | TED.com