TEDIndia 2009
Vilayanur Ramachandran: The neurons that shaped civilization
VS Ramachandran: Nevroni, ki so oblikovali civilizacijo
Filmed:
Readability: 4.5
2,250,451 views
Nevrolog Vilayanur Ramachandran opiše osupljivo delovanje zrcalnih nevronov. Ti nevroni, ki so jih odkrili šele pred kratkim, nam omogočijo, da se naučimo kompleksnega socialnega vedenja, ki je postavilo temelje današnje civilizacije.
Vilayanur Ramachandran - Brain expert
Neurologist V.S. Ramachandran looks deep into the brain’s most basic mechanisms. By working with those who have very specific mental disabilities caused by brain injury or stroke, he can map functions of the mind to physical structures of the brain. Full bio
Neurologist V.S. Ramachandran looks deep into the brain’s most basic mechanisms. By working with those who have very specific mental disabilities caused by brain injury or stroke, he can map functions of the mind to physical structures of the brain. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
I'd like to talk to you today about the human brain,
0
0
3000
Govoril bom o človeških možganih,
00:18
which is what we do research on at the University of California.
1
3000
2000
ki jih raziskujemo na Univerzi Kalifornije.
00:20
Just think about this problem for a second.
2
5000
2000
Samo pomislite.
00:22
Here is a lump of flesh, about three pounds,
3
7000
3000
Kos mesa, ki tehta samo okoli 1,5 kg
00:25
which you can hold in the palm of your hand.
4
10000
2000
in ga lahko držite v dlani.
00:27
But it can contemplate the vastness of interstellar space.
5
12000
4000
Lahko razmišlja o prostranosti medzvezdnega prostora.
00:31
It can contemplate the meaning of infinity,
6
16000
2000
Se sprašuje o pomenu neskončnosti,
00:33
ask questions about the meaning of its own existence,
7
18000
3000
o pomenu lastnega obstoja
00:36
about the nature of God.
8
21000
2000
in o obstoju Boga.
00:38
And this is truly the most amazing thing in the world.
9
23000
2000
To je najbolj osupljiva stvar na svetu.
00:40
It's the greatest mystery confronting human beings:
10
25000
3000
To je največja skrivnost človeka.
00:43
How does this all come about?
11
28000
2000
Kako je prišlo do tega?
00:45
Well, the brain, as you know, is made up of neurons.
12
30000
2000
Možgani so sestavljeni iz nevronov.
00:47
We're looking at neurons here.
13
32000
2000
Zdaj govorimo o nevronih.
00:49
There are 100 billion neurons in the adult human brain.
14
34000
3000
V možganih odraslega človeka je 100 milijard nevronov.
00:52
And each neuron makes something like 1,000 to 10,000 contacts
15
37000
3000
Vsak nevron je povezan s 1000 do 10.000
00:55
with other neurons in the brain.
16
40000
2000
izmed ostalih nevronov v možganih.
00:57
And based on this, people have calculated
17
42000
2000
Ljudje so izračunali,
00:59
that the number of permutations and combinations of brain activity
18
44000
3000
da število permutacij in kombinacij v možganih
01:02
exceeds the number of elementary particles in the universe.
19
47000
3000
presega število osnovnih delcev v vesolju.
01:05
So, how do you go about studying the brain?
20
50000
2000
Kako se lotimo preučevanja možganov?
01:07
One approach is to look at patients who had lesions
21
52000
2000
Lahko se posvetimo pacientom s poškodbami
01:09
in different part of the brain, and study changes in their behavior.
22
54000
3000
v različnih delih možganov in preučimo spremembe v obnašanju.
01:12
This is what I spoke about in the last TED.
23
57000
2000
O tem sem govoril zadnjič.
01:14
Today I'll talk about a different approach,
24
59000
2000
Danes bom govoril o drugačnem pristopu.
01:16
which is to put electrodes in different parts of the brain,
25
61000
2000
Elektrode namestimo v različne dele možganov
01:18
and actually record the activity of individual nerve cells in the brain.
26
63000
4000
in posnamemo dejavnost posameznih živčnih celic v možganih.
01:22
Sort of eavesdrop on the activity of nerve cells in the brain.
27
67000
4000
Kot da bi prisluškovali dejavnosti živčnih celic.
01:26
Now, one recent discovery that has been made
28
71000
3000
Nedavno odkritje
01:29
by researchers in Italy, in Parma,
29
74000
2000
raziskovalcev iz Parme v Italiji,
01:31
by Giacomo Rizzolatti and his colleagues,
30
76000
3000
Giacome Rizzolattija in njegovih sodelavcev,
01:34
is a group of neurons called mirror neurons,
31
79000
2000
je skupina zrcalnih nevronov,
01:36
which are on the front of the brain in the frontal lobes.
32
81000
3000
ki se nahajajo v frontalnem režnju možganov.
01:39
Now, it turns out there are neurons
33
84000
2000
Izkazalo se je, da obstajajo
01:41
which are called ordinary motor command neurons in the front of the brain,
34
86000
3000
motorični nevroni v sprednjem delu možganov,
01:44
which have been known for over 50 years.
35
89000
2000
ki so znani že več kot 50 let.
01:46
These neurons will fire when a person performs a specific action.
36
91000
3000
Ti nevroni začnejo delovati, ko človek izvaja določeno dejanje.
01:49
For example, if I do that, and reach and grab an apple,
37
94000
3000
Če primem jabolko,
01:52
a motor command neuron in the front of my brain will fire.
38
97000
4000
bo začel delovati motorični nevron v sprednjem delu možganov.
01:56
If I reach out and pull an object, another neuron will fire,
39
101000
3000
Če povlečem predmet, se sproži delovanje drugega nevrona,
01:59
commanding me to pull that object.
40
104000
2000
ki mi je ukazal, naj predmet povlečem.
02:01
These are called motor command neurons that have been known for a long time.
41
106000
2000
Ti nevroni so znani že dolgo časa.
02:03
But what Rizzolatti found was
42
108000
2000
Rizzolatti je odkril,
02:05
a subset of these neurons,
43
110000
2000
da del teh nevronov,
02:07
maybe about 20 percent of them, will also fire
44
112000
2000
približno 20 odstotkov, deluje tudi,
02:09
when I'm looking at somebody else performing the same action.
45
114000
3000
ko opazujemo druge, kako izvajajo enako dejanje.
02:12
So, here is a neuron that fires when I reach and grab something,
46
117000
3000
Delovanje nevrona se sproži, ko stvar primem
02:15
but it also fires when I watch Joe reaching and grabbing something.
47
120000
3000
in tudi ko opazujem Joeja, kako prime enako stvar.
02:18
And this is truly astonishing.
48
123000
2000
To je resnično neverjetno.
02:20
Because it's as though this neuron is adopting
49
125000
2000
Kot da bi nevron prevzel
02:22
the other person's point of view.
50
127000
2000
vidik drugega človeka.
02:24
It's almost as though it's performing a virtual reality simulation
51
129000
4000
Kot da bi izvajal virtualno simulacijo
02:28
of the other person's action.
52
133000
2000
dejanj drugega človeka.
02:30
Now, what is the significance of these mirror neurons?
53
135000
3000
Kakšen je pomen zrcalnih nevronov?
02:33
For one thing they must be involved in things like imitation and emulation.
54
138000
3000
Sodelujejo pri posnemanju in tekmovanju.
02:36
Because to imitate a complex act
55
141000
3000
Za posnemanje kompleksnega dejanja
02:39
requires my brain to adopt the other person's point of view.
56
144000
3000
morajo možgani prevzeti vidik drugega človeka.
02:42
So, this is important for imitation and emulation.
57
147000
2000
To je pomembno pri posnemanju in tekmovanju.
02:44
Well, why is that important?
58
149000
2000
Zakaj?
02:46
Well, let's take a look at the next slide.
59
151000
3000
Poglejmo si naslednjo prosojnico.
02:49
So, how do you do imitation? Why is imitation important?
60
154000
3000
Kako posnemamo? Zakaj je posnemanje pomembno?
02:52
Mirror neurons and imitation, emulation.
61
157000
2000
Zrcalni nevroni in posnemanje.
02:54
Now, let's look at culture, the phenomenon of human culture.
62
159000
4000
Poglejmo si kulturo, čudež človeštva.
02:58
If you go back in time about [75,000] to 100,000 years ago,
63
163000
4000
Če se vrnemo 75.000 do 100.000 let nazaj
03:02
let's look at human evolution, it turns out
64
167000
2000
v evolucijo človeka, vidimo,
03:04
that something very important happened around 75,000 years ago.
65
169000
3000
da se je takrat zgodilo nekaj zelo pomembnega.
03:07
And that is, there is a sudden emergence and rapid spread
66
172000
2000
Nenadoma so se pojavile in hitro širile
03:09
of a number of skills that are unique to human beings
67
174000
3000
številne spretnosti, ki so značilne samo za ljudi,
03:12
like tool use,
68
177000
2000
kot so uporaba orodja,
03:14
the use of fire, the use of shelters, and, of course, language,
69
179000
3000
ognja, zavetišč in seveda jezika
03:17
and the ability to read somebody else's mind
70
182000
2000
ter sposobnost, da
03:19
and interpret that person's behavior.
71
184000
2000
analiziramo vedenje drugih ljudi.
03:21
All of that happened relatively quickly.
72
186000
2000
Vse se je zgodilo dokaj hitro.
03:23
Even though the human brain had achieved its present size
73
188000
3000
Čeprav so človeški možgani današnjo velikost dosegli
03:26
almost three or four hundred thousand years ago,
74
191000
2000
skoraj 300.000 ali 400.000 let nazaj,
03:28
100,000 years ago all of this happened very, very quickly.
75
193000
2000
se je pred 100.000 leti vse zgodilo izjemno hitro.
03:30
And I claim that what happened was
76
195000
3000
Trdim, da so se
03:33
the sudden emergence of a sophisticated mirror neuron system,
77
198000
3000
nenadoma pojavili visoko razviti zrcalni nevroni,
03:36
which allowed you to emulate and imitate other people's actions.
78
201000
2000
ki so nam omogočili, da smo posnemali dejanja drugih.
03:38
So that when there was a sudden accidental discovery
79
203000
4000
Ko je nekdo v skupini naključno odkril
03:42
by one member of the group, say the use of fire,
80
207000
3000
npr. ogenj
03:45
or a particular type of tool, instead of dying out,
81
210000
2000
ali določeno orodje, se je to
03:47
this spread rapidly, horizontally across the population,
82
212000
3000
hitro razširilo med populacijo
03:50
or was transmitted vertically, down the generations.
83
215000
3000
ali pa se je preneslo na naslednje generacije.
03:53
So, this made evolution suddenly Lamarckian,
84
218000
2000
Gre za Lamarckovo teorijo evolucije
03:55
instead of Darwinian.
85
220000
2000
in ne več darvinistično.
03:57
Darwinian evolution is slow; it takes hundreds of thousands of years.
86
222000
3000
Darvinistična evolucija poteka na stotine ali tisoče let.
04:00
A polar bear, to evolve a coat,
87
225000
2000
Polarni medved bo za razvoj kožuha
04:02
will take thousands of generations, maybe 100,000 years.
88
227000
3000
potreboval na tisoče generacij, mogoče 100.000 let.
04:05
A human being, a child, can just watch its parent
89
230000
3000
Otrok lahko opazuje svojega starša,
04:08
kill another polar bear,
90
233000
3000
kako ubije polarnega medveda,
04:11
and skin it and put the skin on its body, fur on the body,
91
236000
3000
ga odre in se obleče v njegovo krzno
04:14
and learn it in one step. What the polar bear
92
239000
2000
ter se tega nauči v enem koraku. Kar se je polarni medved
04:16
took 100,000 years to learn,
93
241000
2000
učil 100.000 let,
04:18
it can learn in five minutes, maybe 10 minutes.
94
243000
3000
se lahko otrok nauči v 5 ali 10 minutah.
04:21
And then once it's learned this it spreads
95
246000
2000
Ko se stvari enkrat naučimo,
04:23
in geometric proportion across a population.
96
248000
3000
se znanje sorazmerno širi med populacijo.
04:26
This is the basis. The imitation of complex skills
97
251000
3000
To je osnova. Posnemanje kompleksnih spretnosti
04:29
is what we call culture and is the basis of civilization.
98
254000
3000
je kultura in osnova civilizacije.
04:32
Now there is another kind of mirror neuron,
99
257000
2000
Obstaja pa tudi drugačna vrsta zrcalnih nevronov,
04:34
which is involved in something quite different.
100
259000
2000
ki sodeluje pri nečem popolnoma drugačnem.
04:36
And that is, there are mirror neurons,
101
261000
2000
Tako kot obstajajo zrcalni nevroni za dejanja,
04:38
just as there are mirror neurons for action, there are mirror neurons for touch.
102
263000
3000
obstajajo tudi zrcalni nevroni za dotik.
04:41
In other words, if somebody touches me,
103
266000
2000
Če se nekdo dotakne moje roke,
04:43
my hand, neuron in the somatosensory cortex
104
268000
2000
se sproži delovanje nevrona v somatosenzoričnem
04:45
in the sensory region of the brain fires.
105
270000
2000
predelu v možganski skorji.
04:47
But the same neuron, in some cases, will fire
106
272000
3000
Isti nevron lahko deluje tudi,
04:50
when I simply watch another person being touched.
107
275000
2000
ko samo opazujem, kako se nekdo dotakne druge osebe.
04:52
So, it's empathizing the other person being touched.
108
277000
3000
Vživim se v to, da se je nekdo dotaknil druge osebe.
04:55
So, most of them will fire when I'm touched
109
280000
2000
Večina nevronov se bo sprožila, ko se me nekdo dotakne
04:57
in different locations. Different neurons for different locations.
110
282000
3000
na različnih delih. Različni nevroni za različne dele telesa.
05:00
But a subset of them will fire even when I watch somebody else
111
285000
2000
Del nevronov pa se bo sprožil tudi takrat, ko gledam,
05:02
being touched in the same location.
112
287000
2000
kako se nekdo dotika nekoga drugega na istem delu.
05:04
So, here again you have neurons
113
289000
2000
Spet gre za nevrone,
05:06
which are enrolled in empathy.
114
291000
2000
ki se vživijo v situacijo druge osebe.
05:08
Now, the question then arises: If I simply watch another person being touched,
115
293000
3000
Pojavi se vprašanje: Ko gledam, kako se nekdo dotika druge osebe,
05:11
why do I not get confused and literally feel that touch sensation
116
296000
4000
zakaj dejansko ne čutim dotika
05:15
merely by watching somebody being touched?
117
300000
2000
med opazovanjem?
05:17
I mean, I empathize with that person but I don't literally feel the touch.
118
302000
4000
Vživim se v vlogo osebe, dotika pa ne čutim.
05:21
Well, that's because you've got receptors in your skin,
119
306000
2000
V koži imamo receptorje
05:23
touch and pain receptors, going back into your brain
120
308000
2000
za dotik in bolečino, ki pošiljajo dražljaje v možgane
05:25
and saying "Don't worry, you're not being touched.
121
310000
3000
in nam sporočajo:˝Nihče se te ne dotika.
05:28
So, empathize, by all means, with the other person,
122
313000
3000
Vživi se v vlogo drugega,
05:31
but do not actually experience the touch,
123
316000
2000
ampak ne čuti dotika,
05:33
otherwise you'll get confused and muddled."
124
318000
2000
drugače boš zmeden.˝
05:35
Okay, so there is a feedback signal
125
320000
2000
To je povratna informacija,
05:37
that vetoes the signal of the mirror neuron
126
322000
2000
ki izniči signal zrcalnega nevrona
05:39
preventing you from consciously experiencing that touch.
127
324000
3000
in nam prepreči, da bi zavestno občutili dotik.
05:42
But if you remove the arm, you simply anesthetize my arm,
128
327000
3000
Če pa oseba umakne roko, preprosto omrtviči mojo roko,
05:45
so you put an injection into my arm,
129
330000
2000
kot da bi dobil injekcijo.
05:47
anesthetize the brachial plexus, so the arm is numb,
130
332000
2000
To omrtviči brahialni pleksus, zato roka odreveni
05:49
and there is no sensations coming in,
131
334000
2000
in ne zazna vznemirjenja.
05:51
if I now watch you being touched,
132
336000
2000
Če zdaj gledam, kako se nekdo dotika drugega,
05:53
I literally feel it in my hand.
133
338000
2000
to dejansko čutim v svoji roki.
05:55
In other words, you have dissolved the barrier
134
340000
2000
Tako smo odstranili oviro
05:57
between you and other human beings.
135
342000
2000
med mano in ostalimi ljudmi.
05:59
So, I call them Gandhi neurons, or empathy neurons.
136
344000
3000
Zato te nevrone imenujem Gandhijevi nevroni ali nevroni vživetja.
06:02
(Laughter)
137
347000
1000
(Smeh)
06:03
And this is not in some abstract metaphorical sense.
138
348000
3000
To ni mišljeno v abstraktnem ali metaforičnem smislu,
06:06
All that's separating you from him,
139
351000
2000
vse, kar nas ločuje od druge osebe,
06:08
from the other person, is your skin.
140
353000
2000
je naša koža.
06:10
Remove the skin, you experience that person's touch in your mind.
141
355000
4000
Če odstranimo kožo, bomo dotik občutili v naših mislih.
06:14
You've dissolved the barrier between you and other human beings.
142
359000
3000
Odstranili smo oviro med nami in drugimi ljudmi.
06:17
And this, of course, is the basis of much of Eastern philosophy,
143
362000
2000
To je osnova vzhodnjaške filozofije.
06:19
and that is there is no real independent self,
144
364000
3000
Ne obstaja samostojna oseba,
06:22
aloof from other human beings, inspecting the world,
145
367000
2000
ki neodvisno od drugih raziskuje svet
06:24
inspecting other people.
146
369000
2000
in druge ljudi.
06:26
You are, in fact, connected not just via Facebook and Internet,
147
371000
3000
Povezani nismo samo prek Facebooka in interneta,
06:29
you're actually quite literally connected by your neurons.
148
374000
3000
ampak smo skoraj dobesedno povezani z nevroni.
06:32
And there is whole chains of neurons around this room, talking to each other.
149
377000
3000
V tej sobi je cela mreža nevronov, ki se pogovarjajo med sabo.
06:35
And there is no real distinctiveness
150
380000
2000
Vaša zavest
06:37
of your consciousness from somebody else's consciousness.
151
382000
2000
se dejansko ne razlikuje od zavesti drugih.
06:39
And this is not mumbo-jumbo philosophy.
152
384000
2000
To ni praznoverna filozofija.
06:41
It emerges from our understanding of basic neuroscience.
153
386000
3000
Izhaja iz našega razumevanja osnovne nevroznanosti.
06:44
So, you have a patient with a phantom limb. If the arm has been removed
154
389000
3000
Imate pacienta s fantomskim udom. Če so vam odstranili roko
06:47
and you have a phantom, and you watch somebody else
155
392000
2000
in imate fantomski občutek bolečine, boste medtem, ko se bo nekdo
06:49
being touched, you feel it in your phantom.
156
394000
2000
dotikal druge osebe, to čutili v svojem fantomskem udu.
06:51
Now the astonishing thing is,
157
396000
2000
Osupljivo je,
06:53
if you have pain in your phantom limb, you squeeze the other person's hand,
158
398000
3000
da ljudje pri občutenju fantomske bolečine stiskajo roko druge osebe,
06:56
massage the other person's hand,
159
401000
2000
masirajo roko druge osebe,
06:58
that relieves the pain in your phantom hand,
160
403000
2000
kar olajša bolečino v fantomski roki.
07:00
almost as though the neuron
161
405000
2000
Kot da bi nevron
07:02
were obtaining relief from merely
162
407000
2000
doživel olajšanje samo
07:04
watching somebody else being massaged.
163
409000
2000
z opazovanjem tega, kako masiramo drugo osebo.
07:06
So, here you have my last slide.
164
411000
3000
Še moja zadnja prosojnica.
07:09
For the longest time people have regarded science
165
414000
2000
Dolgo časa so ljudje obravnavali znanost
07:11
and humanities as being distinct.
166
416000
2000
in humanistiko izrazito ločeno.
07:13
C.P. Snow spoke of the two cultures:
167
418000
3000
C.P. Snow je govoril o dveh kulturah:
07:16
science on the one hand, humanities on the other;
168
421000
2000
o znanosti na eni in humanistiki na drugi strani,
07:18
never the twain shall meet.
169
423000
2000
ki se ne moreta združiti.
07:20
So, I'm saying the mirror neuron system underlies the interface
170
425000
2000
Po mojem mnenju zrcalni nevroni predstavljajo vmesni člen,
07:22
allowing you to rethink about issues like consciousness,
171
427000
3000
ki nam omogoča, da premislimo o zavesti,
07:25
representation of self,
172
430000
2000
o svoji identiteti,
07:27
what separates you from other human beings,
173
432000
2000
o tem kaj nas ločuje od drugih ljudi,
07:29
what allows you to empathize with other human beings,
174
434000
2000
kaj nam omogoča, da se vživimo v vlogo drugih
07:31
and also even things like the emergence of culture and civilization,
175
436000
3000
in celo o pojavu kulture in civilizacije,
07:34
which is unique to human beings. Thank you.
176
439000
2000
ki sta značilni samo za ljudi. Hvala.
07:36
(Applause)
177
441000
2000
Aplavz
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Vilayanur Ramachandran - Brain expertNeurologist V.S. Ramachandran looks deep into the brain’s most basic mechanisms. By working with those who have very specific mental disabilities caused by brain injury or stroke, he can map functions of the mind to physical structures of the brain.
Why you should listen
V.S. Ramachandran is a mesmerizing speaker, able to concretely and simply describe the most complicated inner workings of the brain. His investigations into phantom limb pain, synesthesia and other brain disorders allow him to explore (and begin to answer) the most basic philosophical questions about the nature of self and human consciousness.
Ramachandran is the director of the Center for Brain and Cognition at the University of California, San Diego, and an adjunct professor at the Salk Institute. He is the author of Phantoms in the Brain (the basis for a Nova special), A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness and The Man with the Phantom Twin: Adventures in the Neuroscience of the Human Brain.
Vilayanur Ramachandran | Speaker | TED.com