TED2014
David Chalmers: How do you explain consciousness?
David Chalmers: Kako razložiti zavest?
Filmed:
Readability: 4.6
2,876,790 views
Zavest je temeljni del našega obstoja, pravi filozof David Chalmers: "Ničesar ni, kar bi poznali bolj neposredno ... a hkrati je najskrivnostnejši pojav v vesolju." Z nami deli nekaj načinov o tem, kako razmišljati o filmu, ki se predvaja v naših glavah.
David Chalmers - Philosopher
In his work, David Chalmers explores the “hard problem of consciousness" -- the quest to explain our subjective experience. Full bio
In his work, David Chalmers explores the “hard problem of consciousness" -- the quest to explain our subjective experience. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Right now
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Prav zdaj
00:14
you have a movie playing inside your head.
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se v vaši glavi vrti film.
00:17
It's an amazing multi-track movie.
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Je neverjeten film.
00:20
It has 3D vision and surround sound
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Ima 3D grafiko in prostorski zvok
00:23
for what you're seeing and hearing right now,
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za tisto, kar vidite in slišite prav zdaj,
00:26
but that's just the start of it.
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ampak to je šele začetek.
00:28
Your movie has smell and taste and touch.
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Vaš film omogoča tudi
vonj in okus in dotik.
vonj in okus in dotik.
00:33
It has a sense of your body,
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Podaja vse občutke vašega telesa,
00:36
pain, hunger, orgasms.
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bolečino, lakoto, orgazme.
00:40
It has emotions,
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Vsebuje čustva;
jezo in srečo.
jezo in srečo.
00:42
anger and happiness.
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00:46
It has memories, like scenes from your childhood
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Kaže spomine, kot so
podobe iz vašega otroštva,
podobe iz vašega otroštva,
00:50
playing before you.
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ki se vrtijo pred vami.
00:52
And it has this constant voiceover narrative
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In ima stalni komentar,
00:57
in your stream of conscious thinking.
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ki se odvija skupaj s tokom vaše zavesti.
01:01
At the heart of this movie is you
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Zvezda tega filma ste vi,
01:06
experiencing all this directly.
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ki vse to neposredno izkušate.
01:11
This movie is your stream of consciousness,
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Ta film je vaš tok zavesti,
01:16
the subject of experience
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zaznavanje lastnega uma in sveta.
01:18
of the mind and the world.
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01:23
Consciousness is one of the fundamental facts
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Zavest je eno od poglavitnih dejstev
človeškega obstoja.
človeškega obstoja.
01:25
of human existence.
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01:27
Each of us is conscious.
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Vsak od nas se zaveda.
01:30
We all have our own inner movie,
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Vsakemu od nas se vrti notranji film,
01:33
you and you and you.
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vam in vam in vam.
01:36
There's nothing we know about more directly.
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Ničesar ne poznamo
bolj neposredno od zavesti.
bolj neposredno od zavesti.
01:39
At least, I know about my consciousness directly.
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Vsaj o svoji zavesti vem neposredno.
01:43
I can't be certain that you guys are conscious.
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Ne morem zares vedeti, ali se vi zavedate.
Zaradi zavesti se nam zdi
življenje vredno živeti.
življenje vredno živeti.
01:47
Consciousness also is what makes life worth living.
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01:50
If we weren't conscious, nothing in our lives
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Brez zavesti nič v našem življenju
ne bi imelo pomena ali vrednosti.
ne bi imelo pomena ali vrednosti.
01:54
would have meaning or value.
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Hkrati pa je to
najskrivnostnejši pojav v vesolju.
najskrivnostnejši pojav v vesolju.
01:57
But at the same time, it's the most
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01:58
mysterious phenomenon in the universe.
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02:03
Why are we conscious?
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Zakaj se zavedamo?
02:06
Why do we have these inner movies?
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Zakaj gledamo te notranje filme?
02:07
Why aren't we just robots
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Zakaj nismo le roboti,
02:10
who process all this input,
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ki samo obdelujejo vse te podatke,
02:12
produce all that output,
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in samo proizvajajo vse te reči,
02:14
without experiencing the inner movie at all?
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ne da bi ta notranji film zares izkusili?
Ta trenutek nihče ne ve
odgovora na ta vprašanja.
odgovora na ta vprašanja.
02:18
Right now, nobody knows the answers
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02:20
to those questions.
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02:22
I'm going to suggest that to integrate consciousness
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Menim, da bi za vključitev
zavesti v znanost,
zavesti v znanost,
02:26
into science, some radical ideas may be needed.
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potrebovali nekaj res radikalnih idej.
02:31
Some people say a science of consciousness
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Nekateri menijo, da je znanost o zavesti
povsem nemogoča.
povsem nemogoča.
02:33
is impossible.
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02:35
Science, by its nature, is objective.
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Znanost je, po svoji naravi, objektivna.
02:39
Consciousness, by its nature, is subjective.
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Zavest je, po svoji naravi, subjektivna.
02:43
So there can never be a science of consciousness.
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Zato nikoli ne more biti
znanosti o zavesti.
znanosti o zavesti.
02:47
For much of the 20th century, that view held sway.
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Večino dvajsetega stoletja
se to mnenje ni spremenilo.
se to mnenje ni spremenilo.
02:50
Psychologists studied behavior objectively,
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Psihologi so objektivno
preučevali vedenje,
preučevali vedenje,
02:54
neuroscientists studied the brain objectively,
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nevroznanstveniki so objektivno
preučevali možgane,
preučevali možgane,
02:58
and nobody even mentioned consciousness.
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in nihče ni zavesti niti omenil.
03:02
Even 30 years ago, when TED got started,
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Celo pred tridesetimi leti,
ko se je oblikoval TED,
ko se je oblikoval TED,
03:04
there was very little scientific work
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je bilo opravljenih zelo malo raziskav
na področju zavesti.
na področju zavesti.
03:07
on consciousness.
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03:09
Now, about 20 years ago,
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Pred približno dvajsetimi leti,
03:11
all that began to change.
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se je vse to začelo spreminjati.
03:14
Neuroscientists like Francis Crick
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Nevroznanstveniki, kot Francis Crick,
03:17
and physicists like Roger Penrose
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in fiziki, kot Roger Penrose,
03:20
said now is the time for science
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so dejali, da je sedaj čas,
da znanost napade zavest.
da znanost napade zavest.
03:22
to attack consciousness.
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03:25
And since then, there's been a real explosion,
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In od tedaj imamo pravo eksplozijo,
03:27
a flowering of scientific work
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razcvet znanstvenih raziskav
na področju zavesti.
na področju zavesti.
03:29
on consciousness.
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03:31
And this work has been wonderful. It's been great.
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In te raziskave so bile čudovite.
Bile so odlične.
Bile so odlične.
03:33
But it also has some fundamental
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A so do sedaj imele v sebi tudi
nekaj temeljnih omejitev.
nekaj temeljnih omejitev.
03:35
limitations so far.
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03:39
The centerpiece
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Glavni del znanosti o zavesti
v zadnjih letih
v zadnjih letih
03:40
of the science of consciousness in recent years
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03:43
has been the search for correlations,
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je bil iskanje medsebojnih povezav,
03:45
correlations between certain areas of the brain
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medsebojnih povezav med
določenimi deli možganov
določenimi deli možganov
03:49
and certain states of consciousness.
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in določenimi stanji zavesti.
Nekaj takih raziskav smo videli
s strani Nancy Kanwisher
s strani Nancy Kanwisher
03:53
We saw some of this kind of work
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03:54
from Nancy Kanwisher and the wonderful work
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kot je tudi čudovita raziskava,
03:55
she presented just a few minutes ago.
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ki jo je predstavila
pred nekaj minutami.
pred nekaj minutami.
03:59
Now we understand much better, for example,
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Zdaj veliko bolje razumemo
tiste dele možganov,
tiste dele možganov,
04:02
the kinds of brain areas that go along with
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ki sodelujejo pri zavestnih izkušnjah,
04:05
the conscious experience of seeing faces
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kot so gledanje obrazov
04:08
or of feeling pain
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ali občutenje bolečine,
04:11
or of feeling happy.
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ali biti vesel.
04:14
But this is still a science of correlations.
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A to je še vedno
znanost medsebojnih povezav.
znanost medsebojnih povezav.
04:16
It's not a science of explanations.
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Ni znanost razlag.
04:20
We know that these brain areas
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Vemo, da ta območja možganov
04:22
go along with certain kinds of conscious experience,
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sodelujejo pri določenih
zavestnih izkušnjah,
zavestnih izkušnjah,
04:26
but we don't know why they do.
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a ne vemo, zakaj.
04:30
I like to put this by saying
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To rad opišem tako:
da to delo nevroznanstvenikov
04:32
that this kind of work from neuroscience
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odgovarja na nekatera vprašanja,
ki jih imamo o zavesti.
ki jih imamo o zavesti.
04:36
is answering some of the questions
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04:37
we want answered about consciousness,
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04:39
the questions about what certain brain areas do
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O tem, kaj delajo
določeni deli možganov
določeni deli možganov
in s čim so povezani.
04:43
and what they correlate with.
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04:45
But in a certain sense, those are the easy problems.
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A z drugega vidika, so to lahki problemi.
Ne podcenjujem nevroznanstvenikov.
04:48
No knock on the neuroscientists.
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04:51
There are no truly easy
problems with consciousness.
problems with consciousness.
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Ni zares lahkih vprašanj
na področju zavesti.
na področju zavesti.
04:53
But it doesn't address the real mystery
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A to se ne dotika prave skrivnosti,
ki je v središču te tematike:
04:58
at the core of this subject:
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05:00
why is it that all that physical processing in a brain
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zakaj sploh mora vso
fizično delovanje v možganih
fizično delovanje v možganih
spremljati tudi zavest?
05:04
should be accompanied by consciousness at all?
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Zakaj sploh obstaja ta
subjektivni notranji film?
subjektivni notranji film?
05:07
Why is there this inner subjective movie?
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05:10
Right now, we don't really have a bead on that.
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Ta trenutek se nam sploh ne sanja, zakaj.
05:13
And you might say,
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In lahko bi rekli,
05:15
let's just give neuroscience a few years.
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pustimo nevroznanosti nekaj let.
Izkazalo se bo, da je to
še en nastajajoč pojav,
še en nastajajoč pojav,
05:19
It'll turn out to be another emergent phenomenon
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05:23
like traffic jams, like hurricanes,
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kot prometni zamaški,
kot orkanske nevihte,
kot orkanske nevihte,
kot življenje in bomo že našli odgovor.
05:28
like life, and we'll figure it out.
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Klasični primeri nastajanja,
05:30
The classical cases of emergence
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05:32
are all cases of emergent behavior,
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so vsi primeri nastajajočega vedenja,
kako se obnaša prometni zastoj,
05:36
how a traffic jam behaves,
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kako deluje orkanska nevihta,
05:38
how a hurricane functions,
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05:40
how a living organism reproduces
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kako se razmnožuje živ organizem
05:42
and adapts and metabolizes,
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in kako se prilagaja in presnavlja,
vsa so vprašanja o objektivnem delovanju.
05:45
all questions about objective functioning.
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05:48
You could apply that to the human brain
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To bi lahko prenesli na človeške možgane,
za razlago nekaterih vedenj
05:51
in explaining some of the behaviors
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05:52
and the functions of the human brain
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in funkcij človeških možganov
kot nastajajočih pojavov:
05:54
as emergent phenomena:
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05:55
how we walk, how we talk, how we play chess,
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kako hodimo, kako govorimo,
kako igramo šah,
kako igramo šah,
vsa ta vprašanja o vedenju.
06:00
all these questions about behavior.
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A ko pridemo do zavesti,
06:02
But when it comes to consciousness,
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so vprašanja glede vedenja
ena lažjih.
ena lažjih.
06:04
questions about behavior
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06:06
are among the easy problems.
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Ko pride do težkega vprašanja,
06:09
When it comes to the hard problem,
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06:10
that's the question of why is it
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vprašanja, zakaj je tako,
da je vse to vedenje
pospremljeno s subjektivno izkušnjo?
pospremljeno s subjektivno izkušnjo?
06:13
that all this behavior
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06:14
is accompanied by subjective experience?
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In tukaj standardna paradigma nastajanja,
06:17
And here, the standard paradigm
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06:19
of emergence,
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06:21
even the standard paradigms of neuroscience,
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celo standardna paradigma nevroznanosti,
06:24
don't really, so far, have that much to say.
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do sedaj nimata veliko za povedati.
06:28
Now, I'm a scientific materialist at heart.
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Po srcu sem znanstveni materialist.
06:32
I want a scientific theory of consciousness
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Hočem znanstveno teorijo zavesti,
ki deluje.
ki deluje.
06:36
that works,
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Dolgo časa sem si razbijal glavo
06:38
and for a long time, I banged my head
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06:41
against the wall
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in iskal teorijo zavesti
06:42
looking for a theory of consciousness
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v povsem fizičnem pomenu,
06:44
in purely physical terms
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ki bi delovala.
06:46
that would work.
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A sčasoma sem prišel do zaključka,
06:47
But I eventually came to the conclusion
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da to ne deluje iz
čisto sistematičnih razlogov.
čisto sistematičnih razlogov.
06:49
that that just didn't work for systematic reasons.
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06:53
It's a long story,
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To je dolga zgodba,
a bistvo je, da to, kar dobite
iz povsem zreduciranih razlag,
iz povsem zreduciranih razlag,
06:55
but the core idea is just that what you get
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06:58
from purely reductionist explanations
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07:00
in physical terms, in brain-based terms,
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v čisto fizičnem pomenu,
na osnovi možganov,
na osnovi možganov,
07:03
is stories about the functioning of a system,
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so zgodbe o delovanju sistema,
07:05
its structure, its dynamics,
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o njegovi strukturi, dinamiki,
vedenju, ki ga povzroča,
07:07
the behavior it produces,
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07:09
great for solving the easy problems —
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odlično za reševanje lahkih problemov -
07:11
how we behave, how we function —
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kako se vedemo, kako delujemo -
07:14
but when it comes to subjective experience —
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a ko pridemo do subjektivne izkušnje -
zakaj je to čutiti
kot nekaj od znotraj? -
kot nekaj od znotraj? -
07:17
why does all this feel like
something from the inside? —
something from the inside? —
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07:21
that's something fundamentally new,
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to je nekaj temeljno novega,
in je vedno tisto naslednje vprašanje.
07:23
and it's always a further question.
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Tako mislim, da smo prišli
na neprehodno točko.
na neprehodno točko.
07:27
So I think we're at a kind of impasse here.
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Imamo to čudovito verigo razlag,
07:32
We've got this wonderful, great chain of explanation,
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ki smo je navajeni,
kjer fizika razlaga kemijo,
kjer fizika razlaga kemijo,
07:35
we're used to it, where physics explains chemistry,
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kemija razlaga biologijo,
07:39
chemistry explains biology,
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biologija razlaga dele psihologije.
07:42
biology explains parts of psychology.
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07:46
But consciousness
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A zavest nekako ne sodi v ta kontekst.
07:48
doesn't seem to fit into this picture.
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Na eni strani je dejstvo,
da se zavedamo.
da se zavedamo.
07:50
On the one hand, it's a datum
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07:52
that we're conscious.
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Po drugi strani,
07:54
On the other hand, we don't know how
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ne vemo, kako jo vključiti v naš
znanstveni pogled na svet.
znanstveni pogled na svet.
07:55
to accommodate it into our
scientific view of the world.
scientific view of the world.
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Zato mislim, da je v tem trenutku
zavest neke vrste anomalija,
zavest neke vrste anomalija,
07:59
So I think consciousness right now
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08:01
is a kind of anomaly,
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08:04
one that we need to integrate
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ki jo moramo vključiti
v naš pogled na svet,
v naš pogled na svet,
08:06
into our view of the world, but we don't yet see how.
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a še ne vemo, kako.
Ko se soočimo s tako anomalijo,
08:10
Faced with an anomaly like this,
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08:12
radical ideas may be needed,
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so mogoče potrebne radikalne ideje
in mislim, da potrebujemo eno ali dve,
08:15
and I think that we may need one or two ideas
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ki se spočetka zdita nori,
08:18
that initially seem crazy
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preden se lahko spoprimemo z zavestjo
na znanstven način.
na znanstven način.
08:20
before we can come to grips with consciousness
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08:23
scientifically.
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Obstaja nekaj kandidatk
za te nore ideje.
za te nore ideje.
08:25
Now, there are a few candidates
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08:27
for what those crazy ideas might be.
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08:29
My friend Dan Dennett, who's here today, has one.
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Moj prijatelj, Dan Dennett,
ki je danes tu, ima eno.
ki je danes tu, ima eno.
Po njegovem sploh ni
težkega problema na področju zavesti
težkega problema na področju zavesti
08:34
His crazy idea is that there is no hard problem
176
502317
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08:36
of consciousness.
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504714
1743
Da cela ideja notranjega
subjektivnega filma
subjektivnega filma
08:38
The whole idea of the inner subjective movie
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3363
vključuje neko vrsto iluzije ali zmede.
08:41
involves a kind of illusion or confusion.
179
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4612
Potrebno je samo razložiti
objektivne funkcije, vedenje možganov.
objektivne funkcije, vedenje možganov.
08:46
Actually, all we've got to do is explain
180
514432
1898
08:48
the objective functions, the behaviors of the brain,
181
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3007
in s tem smo pojasnili vse,
kar je treba pojasniti.
kar je treba pojasniti.
08:51
and then we've explained everything
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2025
08:53
that needs to be explained.
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2475
Jaz pravim, zaploskajmo mu.
08:55
Well I say, more power to him.
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2609
To je taka radikalna ideja,
ki bi jo morali raziskati.
ki bi jo morali raziskati.
08:58
That's the kind of radical idea
185
526446
2014
09:00
that we need to explore
186
528460
1924
Če želite imeti povsem
zreducirano teorijo zavesti,
zreducirano teorijo zavesti,
09:02
if you want to have a purely reductionist
187
530384
2339
09:04
brain-based theory of consciousness.
188
532723
3550
ki temelji na možganih.
09:08
At the same time, for me and for many other people,
189
536273
2071
Istočasno je zame in mnoge druge
09:10
that view is a bit too close to simply
190
538344
1827
ta pogled preveč podoben
enostavnemu zanikanju obstoja zavesti
enostavnemu zanikanju obstoja zavesti
09:12
denying the datum of consciousness
191
540171
2021
09:14
to be satisfactory.
192
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1503
da bi bil zadovoljiv.
09:15
So I go in a different direction.
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3068
Zato bom šel v drugo smer.
V času, ki ga še imamo,
09:18
In the time remaining,
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1186
09:19
I want to explore two crazy ideas
195
547949
2999
bi želel raziskati dve nori ideji,
ki bi lahko bili obetavni.
09:22
that I think may have some promise.
196
550948
3717
09:26
The first crazy idea
197
554665
1620
Prva nora ideja je,
da je zavest temeljna.
da je zavest temeljna.
09:28
is that consciousness is fundamental.
198
556285
4625
Fiziki včasih nekatere elemente vesolja
označijo za temeljne zidake:
označijo za temeljne zidake:
09:32
Physicists sometimes take
some aspects of the universe
some aspects of the universe
199
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2841
09:35
as fundamental building blocks:
200
563751
2160
prostor in čas in masa.
09:37
space and time and mass.
201
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3749
09:41
They postulate fundamental laws governing them,
202
569660
3610
Zastavijo temeljne zakone, ki jim vladajo,
zakone gravitacije
ali kvantne mehanike.
ali kvantne mehanike.
09:45
like the laws of gravity or of quantum mechanics.
203
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3890
Te temeljne lastnosti in zakoni
09:49
These fundamental properties and laws
204
577160
2310
09:51
aren't explained in terms of anything more basic.
205
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3217
niso razloženi z nečim še bolj osnovnim.
09:54
Rather, they're taken as primitive,
206
582687
2740
Namesto tega so razumljeni kot osnova
iz katerih se gradi svet.
iz katerih se gradi svet.
09:57
and you build up the world from there.
207
585427
3379
Občasno se ta seznam razširi.
10:00
Now sometimes, the list of fundamentals expands.
208
588806
5099
V devetnajstem stoletju
je Maxwell ugotovil,
je Maxwell ugotovil,
10:05
In the 19th century, Maxwell figured out
209
593905
2457
10:08
that you can't explain electromagnetic phenomena
210
596362
3168
da ne morete razložiti
elektromagnetnih pojavov
elektromagnetnih pojavov
10:11
in terms of the existing fundamentals —
211
599530
2351
z obstoječimi osnovami -
prostor, čas, masa, Newtonovi zakoni -
10:13
space, time, mass, Newton's laws —
212
601881
3069
10:16
so he postulated fundamental laws
213
604950
2571
zato je osnoval temeljne zakone
elektromagnetizma
elektromagnetizma
10:19
of electromagnetism
214
607521
1814
10:21
and postulated electric charge
215
609335
2411
in postavil električni naboj
kot temeljni element,
kot temeljni element,
10:23
as a fundamental element
216
611746
1768
10:25
that those laws govern.
217
613514
2959
ki mu ti zakoni vladajo.
10:28
I think that's the situation we're in
218
616473
3283
Mislim, da smo v
podobnem položaju glede zavesti.
podobnem položaju glede zavesti.
10:31
with consciousness.
219
619756
1610
10:33
If you can't explain consciousness
220
621366
2485
Če zavesti ne morete razložiti
z obstoječimi temeljnimi pojmi -
z obstoječimi temeljnimi pojmi -
10:35
in terms of the existing fundamentals —
221
623851
2418
prostor, čas, masa, naboj -
10:38
space, time, mass, charge —
222
626269
2671
potem je stvar logike,
da morate seznam razširiti.
da morate seznam razširiti.
10:40
then as a matter of logic,
you need to expand the list.
you need to expand the list.
223
628940
3430
Naravno je torej postaviti prav zavest
kot nekaj temeljnega,
kot nekaj temeljnega,
10:44
The natural thing to do is to postulate
224
632370
2476
10:46
consciousness itself as something fundamental,
225
634846
3256
10:50
a fundamental building block of nature.
226
638102
3032
temeljni gradnik narave.
To ne pomeni, da nenadoma
z njo ne morete biti znanstveni.
z njo ne morete biti znanstveni.
10:53
This doesn't mean you suddenly
can't do science with it.
can't do science with it.
227
641134
2968
To vam odpre pot, da se
z njo znanstveno ukvarjate.
z njo znanstveno ukvarjate.
10:56
This opens up the way for you to do science with it.
228
644102
3598
10:59
What we then need is to study
229
647700
1904
Potem moramo preučiti temeljne zakone,
ki zavesti vladajo,
ki zavesti vladajo,
11:01
the fundamental laws governing consciousness,
230
649604
2953
11:04
the laws that connect consciousness
231
652557
2380
zakone, ki zavest povezujejo
z ostalimi temelji:
z ostalimi temelji:
11:06
to other fundamentals: space, time, mass,
232
654937
2801
prostor, čas, masa, fizični procesi.
11:09
physical processes.
233
657738
2936
Fiziki včasih pravijo, da želimo
tako preproste temeljne zakone,
tako preproste temeljne zakone,
11:12
Physicists sometimes say
234
660674
2182
11:14
that we want fundamental laws so simple
235
662856
2880
da bi jih lahko napisali na majico.
11:17
that we could write them on the front of a t-shirt.
236
665736
3802
Mislim, da je to podobno položaju,
v katerem smo pri zavesti.
v katerem smo pri zavesti.
11:21
Well I think something like that is the situation
237
669538
1721
11:23
we're in with consciousness.
238
671259
1868
Želimo tako preproste temeljne zakone,
da bi jih lahko napisali na majico.
da bi jih lahko napisali na majico.
11:25
We want to find fundamental laws so simple
239
673127
2750
11:27
we could write them on the front of a t-shirt.
240
675877
2087
Ne vemo še, kaj so ti zakoni,
11:29
We don't know what those laws are yet,
241
677964
1575
11:31
but that's what we're after.
242
679539
4027
a to je, kar iščemo.
Druga nora ideja je,
da je zavest nekaj univerzalnega.
da je zavest nekaj univerzalnega.
11:35
The second crazy idea
243
683566
2417
11:37
is that consciousness might be universal.
244
685983
3478
11:41
Every system might have some degree
245
689461
3061
Vsak sistem bi lahko imel
neko stopnjo zavesti.
neko stopnjo zavesti.
11:44
of consciousness.
246
692522
3725
11:48
This view is sometimes called panpsychism:
247
696247
2961
Ta nazor se včasih imenuje 'panpsihizem':
11:51
pan for all, psych for mind,
248
699208
3002
'pan' za vse in 'psih' za um,
11:54
every system is conscious,
249
702210
1771
vsak sistem ima zavest,
ne le ljudje, psi, miši, muhe,
11:55
not just humans, dogs, mice, flies,
250
703981
4247
ampak celo mikrobi Roba Knighta,
12:00
but even Rob Knight's microbes,
251
708228
2577
elementarni delci.
12:02
elementary particles.
252
710805
2187
12:04
Even a photon has some degree of consciousness.
253
712992
2713
Celo foton ima neko stopnjo zavesti.
To ne pomeni, da so fotoni
inteligentni ali misleči.
inteligentni ali misleči.
12:07
The idea is not that photons are intelligent
254
715705
3779
12:11
or thinking.
255
719484
1077
To ne pomeni, da se foton
spopada s tesnobo,
spopada s tesnobo,
12:12
It's not that a photon
256
720561
1430
12:13
is wracked with angst
257
721991
1445
ker misli: "Ah, vedno frčim naokrog
s skoraj svetlobno hitrostjo.
s skoraj svetlobno hitrostjo.
12:15
because it's thinking, "Aww, I'm always
buzzing around near the speed of light.
buzzing around near the speed of light.
258
723436
3292
12:18
I never get to slow down and smell the roses."
259
726728
2992
Nikoli se ne morem ustaviti,
da bi povohal cvetlice."
da bi povohal cvetlice."
12:21
No, not like that.
260
729720
2144
Ne, ni tako.
12:23
But the thought is maybe photons might have
261
731864
3048
A fotoni bi lahko imeli elemente
surovega, subjektivnega občutka,
surovega, subjektivnega občutka,
12:26
some element of raw, subjective feeling,
262
734912
2623
neke vrste primitiven predhodnik zavesti.
12:29
some primitive precursor to consciousness.
263
737535
4152
12:33
This may sound a bit kooky to you.
264
741687
2854
To se vam lahko zdi malce noro.
12:36
I mean, why would anyone think such a crazy thing?
265
744541
2783
Le zakaj bi nekdo pomislil na kaj takega?
12:39
Some motivation comes from the first crazy idea,
266
747324
3560
Nekaj motivacije prihaja
iz prve nore ideje:
iz prve nore ideje:
12:42
that consciousness is fundamental.
267
750884
2146
da je zavest temeljna.
Če je temeljna, kot prostor, čas in masa,
12:45
If it's fundamental, like space and time and mass,
268
753030
4375
je naravno sklepati,
da je mogoče tudi univerzalna,
da je mogoče tudi univerzalna,
12:49
it's natural to suppose that it might be universal too,
269
757405
2665
12:52
the way they are.
270
760070
1900
tako kot so oni.
12:53
It's also worth noting that although the idea
271
761970
1949
Vredno si je zapomniti,
da čeprav se nam ideja zdi čudna,
da čeprav se nam ideja zdi čudna,
12:55
seems counterintuitive to us,
272
763919
2024
je veliko manj čudna ljudem
iz različnih kultur,
iz različnih kultur,
12:57
it's much less counterintuitive to people
273
765943
2744
13:00
from different cultures,
274
768687
1731
13:02
where the human mind is seen as much more
275
770418
1520
kjer je človeški um veliko bolj
skladen z naravo.
skladen z naravo.
13:03
continuous with nature.
276
771938
3072
13:07
A deeper motivation comes from the idea that
277
775010
3734
Globlji motiv prihaja iz ideje,
da je mogoče najpreprostejši
in najboljši način
in najboljši način
13:10
perhaps the most simple and powerful way
278
778744
2009
za odkritje temeljnih zakonov,
ki povezujejo zavest in fizično obdelavo,
ki povezujejo zavest in fizično obdelavo,
13:12
to find fundamental laws connecting consciousness
279
780753
2234
13:14
to physical processing
280
782987
1980
povezava zavesti z informacijami.
13:16
is to link consciousness to information.
281
784967
3095
13:20
Wherever there's information processing,
282
788062
2011
Kjerkoli se obdelujejo informacije,
obstaja tudi zavest.
obstaja tudi zavest.
13:22
there's consciousness.
283
790073
1065
13:23
Complex information processing, like in a human,
284
791138
2540
Zapletena obdelava informacij,
kot pri ljudeh,
kot pri ljudeh,
13:25
complex consciousness.
285
793688
1532
zapletena zavest.
13:27
Simple information processing,
286
795220
2129
Enostavna obdelava,
13:29
simple consciousness.
287
797349
1958
preprosta zavest.
13:31
A really exciting thing is in recent years
288
799307
2331
Zares razburljiva novica zadnjih let
je znanstvenik, Giulio Tononi,
je znanstvenik, Giulio Tononi,
13:33
a neuroscientist, Giulio Tononi,
289
801638
3265
ki se je oprl na tako teorijo
13:36
has taken this kind of theory
290
804903
1243
13:38
and developed it rigorously
291
806146
2075
in jo podrobno razvil
z matematično teorijo.
z matematično teorijo.
13:40
with a mathematical theory.
292
808221
1849
13:42
He has a mathematical measure
293
810070
1517
Ima matematično mero
integracije informacij,
integracije informacij,
13:43
of information integration
294
811587
1730
ki jo imenuje phi,
13:45
which he calls phi,
295
813317
1919
13:47
measuring the amount of information
296
815236
1607
merjenje količine informacij,
ki so vključene v sistem.
ki so vključene v sistem.
13:48
integrated in a system.
297
816843
1620
13:50
And he supposes that phi goes along
298
818463
2369
In meni, da gre phi
skupaj z zavestjo.
skupaj z zavestjo.
13:52
with consciousness.
299
820832
1438
Torej v človeških možganih
je visoka stopnja integracije informacij,
je visoka stopnja integracije informacij,
13:54
So in a human brain,
300
822270
1321
13:55
incredibly large amount of information integration,
301
823591
2519
visoka stopnja phi,
13:58
high degree of phi,
302
826110
2034
veliko zavesti.
14:00
a whole lot of consciousness.
303
828144
1549
14:01
In a mouse, medium degree
of information integration,
of information integration,
304
829693
3693
Pri miših, srednja stopnja
integracije informacij,
integracije informacij,
še vedno omembe vredno,
kar resna mera zavesti,
kar resna mera zavesti,
14:05
still pretty significant,
305
833386
1019
14:06
pretty serious amount of consciousness.
306
834405
2025
14:08
But as you go down to worms,
307
836430
2265
A ko se spustite k črvom,
mikrobom, delcem,
mikrobom, delcem,
14:10
microbes, particles,
308
838695
3477
količina phi pade.
14:14
the amount of phi falls off.
309
842172
1534
14:15
The amount of information integration falls off,
310
843706
2433
Količina sprejemanja informacij pade,
a je še vedno več od nič.
a je še vedno več od nič.
14:18
but it's still non-zero.
311
846139
1448
Po Tononijevi teoriji,
14:19
On Tononi's theory,
312
847587
1939
14:21
there's still going to be a non-zero degree
313
849526
2207
bo tam še vedno ne-nična
stopnja zavesti.
stopnja zavesti.
14:23
of consciousness.
314
851733
1829
Pravzaprav predlaga
temeljni zakon zavesti:
temeljni zakon zavesti:
14:25
In effect, he's proposing a fundamental law
315
853562
2539
14:28
of consciousness: high phi, high consciousness.
316
856101
3384
visok phi, visoka stopnja zavesti.
14:31
Now, I don't know if this theory is right,
317
859485
2622
Ne vem, ali ima teorija prav,
a je v tem trenutku mogoče vodilna teorija
v znanosti o zavesti.
v znanosti o zavesti.
14:34
but it's actually perhaps the leading theory right now
318
862107
3211
14:37
in the science of consciousness,
319
865318
1386
14:38
and it's been used to integrate a whole range
320
866704
2231
Uporabili so jo za integracijo
cele vrste znanstvenih podatkov
cele vrste znanstvenih podatkov
14:40
of scientific data,
321
868935
2387
in ima lepo lastnost,
14:43
and it does have a nice property
that it is in fact simple enough
that it is in fact simple enough
322
871322
2243
da je res dovolj preprosta,
da jo napišete na majico.
da jo napišete na majico.
14:45
you can write it on the front of a t-shirt.
323
873565
3495
Še zadnji motiv je,
14:49
Another final motivation is that
324
877060
2625
14:51
panpsychism might help us to integrate
325
879685
2051
da nam panpsihizem lahko morda pomaga
integrirati zavest v fizični svet.
integrirati zavest v fizični svet.
14:53
consciousness into the physical world.
326
881736
3214
Fiziki in filozofi so pogosto opazili,
14:56
Physicists and philosophers have often observed
327
884950
3177
da je fizika nenavadno abstraktna.
15:00
that physics is curiously abstract.
328
888127
2441
15:02
It describes the structure of reality
329
890568
2148
Opisuje strukturo realnosti
z uporabo kopice enačb,
z uporabo kopice enačb,
15:04
using a bunch of equations,
330
892716
2084
a nam ne razlaga realnosti,
ki je v njenem ozadju.
ki je v njenem ozadju.
15:06
but it doesn't tell us about the reality
331
894800
3024
15:09
that underlies it.
332
897824
1568
Kot je dejal Stephen Hawking,
15:11
As Stephen Hawking puts it,
333
899392
1897
15:13
what puts the fire into the equations?
334
901289
4054
kaj daje žar enačbam?
15:17
Well, on the panpsychist view,
335
905343
2618
S stališča panpsihistov
lahko pustite fizikalne enačbe kot so,
lahko pustite fizikalne enačbe kot so,
15:19
you can leave the equations of physics as they are,
336
907961
2639
a jih jemljete, kot da opisujejo
tok zavesti.
tok zavesti.
15:22
but you can take them to be describing
337
910600
1564
15:24
the flux of consciousness.
338
912164
1674
Kajti to konec koncev fizika počne,
opisuje tok zavesti.
opisuje tok zavesti.
15:25
That's what physics really is ultimately doing,
339
913838
2038
15:27
describing the flux of consciousness.
340
915876
2329
S tega vidika je zavest tisto,
kar daje enačbam žar.
kar daje enačbam žar.
15:30
On this view, it's consciousness
341
918205
1653
15:31
that puts the fire into the equations.
342
919858
4246
15:36
On that view, consciousness doesn't dangle
343
924104
1660
S tega vidika, zavest ne obstaja
zunaj fizičnega sveta,
zunaj fizičnega sveta,
15:37
outside the physical world
344
925764
1676
kot nekaj dodatnega.
15:39
as some kind of extra.
345
927440
1418
Je prav tu v njegovem središču.
15:40
It's there right at its heart.
346
928858
3456
15:44
This view, I think, the panpsychist view,
347
932314
2874
Ta, panpsihistični pogled,
ima po mojem mnenju
ima po mojem mnenju
15:47
has the potential to transfigure our relationship
348
935188
3301
potencial, da preoblikuje
naš odnos z naravo
naš odnos z naravo
15:50
to nature,
349
938489
1495
15:51
and it may have some pretty serious social
350
939984
2235
in ima morda precej resne
socialne in etične posledice.
socialne in etične posledice.
15:54
and ethical consequences.
351
942219
3693
15:57
Some of these may be counterintuitive.
352
945912
2159
Nekatere od teh so
mogoče v nasprotju z občutki.
mogoče v nasprotju z občutki.
16:00
I used to think I shouldn't eat anything
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Nekoč sem menil, da ne bi smel pojesti
ničesar z zavestjo,
ničesar z zavestjo,
16:03
which is conscious,
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zato bi moral biti vegetarijanec.
16:05
so therefore I should be vegetarian.
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16:08
Now, if you're a panpsychist and you take that view,
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Če ste panpsihist in zavzamete to stališče,
boste zelo lačni.
boste zelo lačni.
16:10
you're going to go very hungry.
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16:13
So I think when you think about it,
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Zato, če pomislite,
lahko to zelo preoblikuje vaša načela,
lahko to zelo preoblikuje vaša načela,
16:14
this tends to transfigure your views,
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16:16
whereas what matters for ethical purposes
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bodisi na področju etike
in moralnih vprašanj;
in moralnih vprašanj;
16:19
and moral considerations,
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16:20
not so much the fact of consciousness,
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ne samo dejstvo zavesti,
ampak stopnja in kompleksnost zavesti.
ampak stopnja in kompleksnost zavesti.
16:23
but the degree and the complexity of consciousness.
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16:27
It's also natural to ask about consciousness
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Naravno se je vprašati o zavesti
v drugih sistemih - računalnikih.
v drugih sistemih - računalnikih.
16:29
in other systems, like computers.
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16:32
What about the artificially intelligent system
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Kaj pa umetno inteligentni istem
v filmu "Ona", Samantha?
v filmu "Ona", Samantha?
16:34
in the movie "Her," Samantha?
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16:37
Is she conscious?
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Ali ima zavest?
16:39
Well, if you take the informational,
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Če pogledate z informacijskega,
panpsihističnega vidika,
panpsihističnega vidika,
16:40
panpsychist view,
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16:41
she certainly has complicated information processing
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sta tu gotovo zapletena
obdelava informacij in integracija,
obdelava informacij in integracija,
16:45
and integration,
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16:46
so the answer is very likely yes, she is conscious.
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zato je odgovor najverjetneje, ja,
ima zavest.
ima zavest.
16:49
If that's right, it raises pretty serious
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In če je to res, se pojavijo
precej resna etična vprašanja
precej resna etična vprašanja
16:52
ethical issues about both the ethics
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o etiki razvoja inteligentnih računalnikov
16:54
of developing intelligent computer systems
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pa tudi o etiki njihovega ugašanja.
16:58
and the ethics of turning them off.
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17:00
Finally, you might ask about the consciousness
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Končno bi lahko vprašali o zavesti
celotnih skupin, planeta.
celotnih skupin, planeta.
17:03
of whole groups,
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17:05
the planet.
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17:07
Does Canada have its own consciousness?
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Ima Kanada svojo zavest?
17:10
Or at a more local level,
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Ali bolj lokalno,
17:12
does an integrated group
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ali ima integrirana skupina,
kot je občinstvo na TED konferenci,
kot je občinstvo na TED konferenci,
17:13
like the audience at a TED conference,
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17:15
are we right now having a
collective TED consciousness,
collective TED consciousness,
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ali imamo v tem trenutku
kolektivno TED zavest,
kolektivno TED zavest,
17:19
an inner movie
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notranji film za to TED skupino,
17:20
for this collective TED group
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ki se razlikuje od notranjih filmov
17:23
which is distinct from the inner movies
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17:24
of each of our parts?
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vsakega posameznika?
17:26
I don't know the answer to that question,
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Odgovora ne poznam,
a mislim, da je eno od tistih,
a mislim, da je eno od tistih,
17:28
but I think it's at least one
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17:29
worth taking seriously.
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ki ga je vredno resno preučiti.
17:32
Okay, so this panpsychist vision,
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Ta panpsihistični pogled je radikalen
17:34
it is a radical one,
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17:36
and I don't know that it's correct.
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in ne vem ali je pravilen.
17:38
I'm actually more confident about
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Veliko bolj zaupam prvi nori ideji,
da je zavest temeljna,
da je zavest temeljna,
17:40
the first crazy idea,
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17:41
that consciousness is fundamental,
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kot drugi, da je univerzalna.
17:44
than about the second one,
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17:45
that it's universal.
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17:48
I mean, the view raises any number of questions,
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Ta pogled sproža številna vprašanja
17:50
has any number of challenges,
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in skriva številne izzive,
na primer:
na primer:
17:51
like how do those little bits
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kako se vsi ti mali koščki zavesti
seštevajo v to kompleksno zavest,
seštevajo v to kompleksno zavest,
17:53
of consciousness add up
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17:54
to the kind of complex consciousness
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ki jo ljubimo in poznamo.
17:57
we know and love.
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Če bomo odgovorili na ta vprašanja,
17:59
If we can answer those questions,
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18:00
then I think we're going to be well on our way
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mislim, da bomo na dobri poti
k resni teoriji o zavesti.
k resni teoriji o zavesti.
18:02
to a serious theory of consciousness.
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18:05
If not, well, this is the hardest problem perhaps
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Če ne... To je morda najtežji problem
v znanosti in filozofiji.
v znanosti in filozofiji.
18:08
in science and philosophy.
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18:10
We can't expect to solve it overnight.
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Ne moremo pričakovati rešitve čez noč.
18:14
But I do think we're going to figure it out eventually.
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A mislim, da jo bomo sčasoma našli.
Razumevanje zavesti, je resnično ključ.
18:17
Understanding consciousness is a real key, I think,
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Tako do razumevanja vesolja,
kot tudi nas samih.
kot tudi nas samih.
18:20
both to understanding the universe
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18:23
and to understanding ourselves.
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Mogoče potrebujemo samo pravo noro idejo.
18:25
It may just take the right crazy idea.
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Hvala.
18:28
Thank you.
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(Aplavz)
18:30
(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
David Chalmers - PhilosopherIn his work, David Chalmers explores the “hard problem of consciousness" -- the quest to explain our subjective experience.
Why you should listen
David Chalmers is a philosopher at the Australian National University and New York University. He works in philosophy of mind and in related areas of philosophy and cognitive science. While he's especially known for his theories on consciousness, he's also interested (and has extensively published) in all sorts of other issues in the foundations of cognitive science, the philosophy of language, metaphysics and epistemology.
Chalmers placed the "hard problem" of consciousness firmly on the philosophical map. He famously challenges materialist conceptions of mind, arguing for an "explanatory gap" between our brains’ physical properties and our minds’ qualia. Elsewhere he has championed the notion of the "extended mind," which argues that the mind is not confined to skin or skull, but plausibly may extend beyond them.
David Chalmers | Speaker | TED.com