TEDMED 2013
Kelli Swazey: Life that doesn't end with death
凯里·施瓦泽: 生命并不因死亡终止
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在托雅，婚礼和分娩并不是使社会交织在一起的社会集会。在这个印度尼西亚的一部分，盛大以及喧闹的葬礼组成了社会生活的中心。人类学家凯里·施瓦泽介绍说，在这种文化中，逝去亲戚的尸体在死亡之后很多年被家人亲切照顾。对于西方对于死亡的敏感性来说，这听起来很奇怪，她说，这实际上是对于与挚爱的关系并不随着呼吸的停止而终止事实的真实体现。
Kelli Swazey - Anthropologist
Kelli Swazey examines how religious and spiritual practices form group identity, and play a vital role in structuring the interactions of individuals within a culture. Full bio
Kelli Swazey examines how religious and spiritual practices form group identity, and play a vital role in structuring the interactions of individuals within a culture. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
I think it's safe to say
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我想我敢说
00:14
that all humans will be intimate with death
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每个人的一生中
00:18
at least once in their lives.
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都至少会有一次与死神亲密接触。
00:21
But what if that intimacy began
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但是如果这种与死神的接触
00:23
long before you faced your own transition
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远远早于
00:25
from life into death?
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你原本面临的由生到死的转换，该怎么办？
00:28
What would life be like
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如果死亡就在你的身边
00:30
if the dead literally lived alongside you?
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你的生活会变成什么样？
00:33
In my husband's homeland
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我丈夫的家乡，
00:35
in the highlands of Sulawesi island
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在印度尼西亚东部的
00:38
in eastern Indonesia,
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苏拉威西岛高地上，
00:40
there is a community of people that experience death
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有一些人，死亡对于他们来说
00:42
not as a singular event
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不是一个孤立事件，
00:45
but as a gradual social process.
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而是一个逐步发生的社会进程。
00:49
In Tana Toraja,
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在塔纳·托拉雅（Tana Toraja），
00:50
the most important social moments in people's lives,
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人们生活中最重要的社交活动，
00:54
the focal points of social and cultural interaction
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社会、文化的关注焦点
00:57
are not weddings or births or even family dinners,
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不是在结婚、生孩子甚至家庭晚餐上，
01:02
but funerals.
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而是在葬礼上。
01:04
So these funerals are characterized
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所以这些葬礼
01:06
by elaborate rituals
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具有复杂的仪式，
01:08
that tie people in a system of reciprocal debt
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在一个基于动物数量的礼尚往来的体系中
01:12
based on the amount of animals --
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将人们紧密联系--
01:14
pigs, chickens and, most importantly, water buffalo --
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例如：猪、鸡以及最重要的水牛 --
01:19
that are sacrificed and distributed
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这些动物会被宰杀
01:22
in the name of the deceased.
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然后祭奠在死者的名下。
01:24
So this cultural complex surrounding death,
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所以这种围绕着“死”的文化情结，
01:28
the ritual enactment of the end of life,
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这一代表生命结束的仪式，
01:32
has made death the most visible
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让葬礼成为托拉雅
01:34
and remarkable aspect of Toraja's landscape.
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最引人注目的、最了不起的一道风景。
01:39
Lasting anywhere from a few days
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葬礼会持续几天
01:42
to a few weeks,
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到几周不等，
01:43
funeral ceremonies are a raucous affair,
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葬礼是一个热闹的事儿。
01:47
where commemorating someone who's died
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在人们祭奠的时候
01:50
is not so much a private sadness
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不会有太多的个人悲伤
01:52
but more of a publicly shared transition.
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而更多的是公众的情感过渡。
01:57
And it's a transition that's just as much
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这个过渡的重要性
02:00
about the identity of the living
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对生者来说
02:02
as it is about remembrance of the dead.
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是和缅怀死者一样重要。
02:06
So every year, thousands of visitors
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所以每年都会有成千上万的游客
02:08
come to Tana Toraja to see, as it were,
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去塔纳托拉雅看
02:11
this culture of death,
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这种关于“死”的文化。
02:13
and for many people these grandiose ceremonies
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对于很多人来说，这些宏伟的仪式
02:16
and the length of the ceremonies
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以及仪式持续的时间
02:19
are somehow incommensurable
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是无法与
02:22
with the way that we face our own mortality in the West.
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我们西方面对死亡的方法而比较的。
02:27
So even as we share death as a universal experience,
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虽然全世界的人们都会经历死亡，
02:33
it's not experienced the same way the world over.
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但是世人们经历死亡的方式不尽相同。
02:37
And as an anthropologist,
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作为一名人类学家，
02:39
I see these differences in experience
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我认为这些不尽相同的经历
02:42
being rooted in the cultural and social world
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根源于不同的文化和社会
02:46
through which we define the phenomena around us.
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并成为我们判断周遭现象的依据。
02:52
So where we see an unquestionable reality,
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所以我们看到的是一个不容置疑的现实，
02:56
death as an irrefutable biological condition,
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即死亡是一个不逆的生命状态，
03:01
Torajans see the expired corporeal form
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而托拉雅人将这种肉体的死亡
03:05
as part of a larger social genesis.
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更多的看作社会起源的一部分。
03:08
So again, the physical cessation of life
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所以物理上生命的尽头
03:13
is not the same as death.
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并不等同于死亡。
03:16
In fact, a member of society is only truly dead
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事实上，一个人真正意义上的死亡
03:20
when the extended family can agree upon
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是当大家庭达成一致
03:23
and marshal the resources necessary
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以及准备好一切举行葬礼
03:26
to hold a funeral ceremony
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所需的资源。
03:27
that is considered appropriate in terms of resources
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这些资源的准备
03:31
for the status of the deceased.
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要与死者的地位相匹配。
03:34
And this ceremony has to take place
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整个葬礼仪式会在全村
03:36
in front of the eyes of the whole community
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当着所有人的面举行
03:38
with everyone's participation.
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每个人都是其中的一份子。
03:41
So after a person's physical death,
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所以在一个人肉体死亡后，
03:44
their body is placed in a special room
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他的尸体会放在他们传统居住地的一个特别房间里，
03:46
in the traditional residence, which is called the tongkonan.
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这种房间叫做 tongkonan。
03:49
And the tongkonan is symbolic
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Tongkonan 是一个象征意义，
03:52
not only of the family's identity
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它不只代表着家族的的身份
03:56
but also of the human life cycle from birth to death.
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也代表了一个人生死轮回。
03:59
So essentially, the shape of the building
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所以基本上，你出生时
04:01
that you're born into is the shape
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所居住的建筑形状就是
04:03
of the structure which carries you
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与你被带着去先祖安息的地方的
04:05
to your ancestral resting place.
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棺材的形状一致。
04:09
Until the funeral ceremony,
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直到葬礼仪式，
04:11
which can be held years after a person's physical death,
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仪式可以在一个人肉体死亡多年以后举行
04:16
the deceased is referred to as "to makala," a sick person,
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死者被称为 “to makala”，一个生病的人，
04:22
or "to mama," a person who is asleep,
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或"to mama"，一个睡着了的人，
04:26
and they continue to be a member of the household.
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他们还会作为整个家庭的一份子。
04:30
They are symbolically fed and cared for,
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他们被象征性地喂养和照顾，
04:33
and the family at this time
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然后家族会在这时候
04:35
will begin a number of ritual injunctions,
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将实行一些仪式上的指令，
04:38
which communicates to the wider community around them
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告知社区里更多的人
04:41
that one of their members is undergoing the transition
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他们的一个成员正在经历“轮回”
04:44
from this life into the afterlife
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从生到来世
04:47
known as Puya.
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这被叫做"Puya"。
04:49
So I know what some of you must be thinking right now.
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所以我知道你们其中有人一定在想，
04:52
Is she really saying that these people live
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她说的是真的吗，
04:55
with the bodies of their dead relatives?
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这些人与他们的亲人的尸体住在一起？
04:58
And that's exactly what I'm saying.
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而这正是我的意思。
05:01
But instead of giving in to the sort of visceral reaction
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但我没有屈服于这种一想到
05:04
we have to this idea of proximity to bodies,
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接近尸体或接近死亡
05:08
proximity to death,
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就产生的五脏六腑的不适感，
05:10
or how this notion just does not fit
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也没有去想这个概念根本不适用于
05:13
into our very biological or medical
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我们生物或医学
05:16
sort of definition of death,
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对于死亡的的定义，
05:19
I like to think about what the Torajan way
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我总是喜欢思考托拉雅人看待死亡的方式
05:22
of viewing death encompasses of the human experience
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涵盖了哪些医学定义的死亡
05:26
that the medical definition leaves out.
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所忽略的人类体验。
05:31
I think that Torajans socially recognize
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我认为托拉雅人在社会上认同了
05:35
and culturally express
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并在文化上表达了
05:38
what many of us feel to be true
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大多数人感知的真理，
05:41
despite the widespread acceptance
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尽管生物医学所定义的死亡
05:43
of the biomedical definition of death,
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被普遍接受。
05:48
and that is that our relationships with other humans,
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这种真理就是我们与其他人类之间的关联，
05:52
their impact on our social reality,
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这种关系对社会现实的影响，
05:55
doesn't cease with the termination
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并不会随着
05:58
of the physical processes of the body,
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身体物理性的死亡而终止，
06:02
that there's a period of transition
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活着的人和死亡的人之间的关系
06:04
as the relationship between the living and the dead
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有一段过渡期
06:09
is transformed but not ended.
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是被改变而不是被结束。
06:14
So Torajans express this idea of this enduring relationship
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所以托拉雅人通过将爱和关注
06:18
by lavishing love and attention
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给予这个关系中最明显的标志
06:20
on the most visible symbol of that relationship,
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即人的身体
06:23
the human body.
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来表达出这种长久的关系。
06:25
So my husband has fond memories
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所以我丈夫曾经跟他已故的祖父
06:28
of talking to and playing with
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交谈过、玩耍过，
06:31
and generally being around his deceased grandfather,
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有着美好的回忆，
06:34
and for him there is nothing unnatural about this.
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而且在他看来是一件很自然的事情。
06:37
This is a natural part of the process
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这是家庭接受他们
06:40
as the family comes to terms with the transition
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与死者之间关系过渡的
06:44
in their relationship to the deceased,
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自然而然的一步。
06:46
and this is the transition from relating to the deceased
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这种过渡就是，
06:49
as a person who's living
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从与死者生前的联系
06:51
to relating to the deceased
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变为把死者
06:53
as a person who's an ancestor.
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作为祖先的一员看待。
06:55
And here you can see these wooden effigies
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在这里你可以看到这些祖先的
06:57
of the ancestors,
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木制的肖像，
06:58
so these are people who have already been buried,
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所以这些人已经被埋葬，
07:00
already had a funeral ceremony.
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已经有过葬礼仪式。
07:01
These are called tau tau.
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这些叫做tau tau。
07:04
So the funeral ceremony itself
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所以葬礼仪式本身
07:07
embodies this relational perspective on death.
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体现了从社会关系的角度看待死亡。
07:11
It ritualizes the impact of death on families
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它使死亡对于家庭和社区的影响
07:15
and communities.
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仪式化。
07:17
And it's also a moment of self-awareness.
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它也是一个自我意识的时刻。
07:20
It's a moment when people think about who they are,
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根据托拉雅人的宇宙哲学，
07:24
their place in society,
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在这个时刻，人们思考他们的身份，
07:27
and their role in the life cycle
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他们在社会中的地位，
07:29
in accordance with Torajan cosmology.
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以及他们在生命周期中的角色。
07:34
There's a saying in Toraja
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在托拉雅有一句谚语
07:35
that all people will become grandparents,
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那就是“所有人都将成为祖父母”，
07:38
and what this means is that after death,
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这意味着在死后，
07:41
we all become part of the ancestral line
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我们都成为祖先的一部分
07:44
that anchors us between the past and the present
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将我们定位在过去和现在之间
07:47
and will define who our loved ones are into the future.
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也将我们的挚爱是谁定义到未来。
07:52
So essentially, we all become grandparents
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所以从根本上说，
07:55
to the generations of human children
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对于我们的下一代
07:58
that come after us.
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我们都会成为祖父母。
08:01
And this metaphor of membership
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相当于说，我们都是
08:03
in the greater human family
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更大的人类大家庭中的成员。
08:05
is the way that children also describe
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这种比喻通常也被儿女们用来形容
08:07
the money that they invest
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他们在这些祭祀水牛上
08:08
in these sacrificial buffaloes
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投资的钱
08:10
that are thought to carry people's soul
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这些水牛被认为携带着人的灵魂
08:12
from here to the afterlife,
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从这里到来世。
08:15
and children will explain
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子女会解释说，
08:16
that they will invest the money in this
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他们将这些钱投资在这
08:19
because they want to repay their parents
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因为他们想要报答他们的父母
08:21
the debt for all of the years their parents spent
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这是孩子们在其父母投资、养育他们时
08:24
investing and caring for them.
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所欠下的债。
08:27
But the sacrifice of buffalo
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但祭祀的水牛
08:30
and the ritual display of wealth
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和展示财富的仪式
08:32
also exhibits the status of the deceased,
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同样代表着死者的社会地位，
08:35
and, by extension, the deceased's family.
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也同样引申至死者家庭的社会地位。
08:39
So at funerals, relationships are reconfirmed
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所以在葬礼上，关系再次被确认
08:43
but also transformed
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也同样被改变
08:45
in a ritual drama that highlights
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在一种仪式的戏剧中强调了
08:48
the most salient feature about death in this place:
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这个地方关于死亡最突出的特点：
08:52
its impact on life and the relationships of the living.
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死亡对生命、对生者之间关系的影响。
08:57
So all of this focus on death
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因此，所有对死亡的关注
09:00
doesn't mean that Torajans don't aspire
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并不意味着托拉雅人
09:02
to the ideal of a long life.
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不渴望长寿。
09:05
They engage in many practices
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他们进行各种锻炼
09:07
thought to confer good health
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认为这些有利于健康
09:09
and survival to an advanced age.
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和长寿。
09:12
But they don't put much stock
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但他们并不相信
09:14
in efforts to prolong life in the face of debilitating illness
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在面对疾病和衰老的时候
09:19
or in old age.
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能有办法延年益寿。
09:22
It's said in Toraja that everybody has
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听说在托拉雅
09:24
sort of a predetermined amount of life.
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每人都有预定的生命时间。
09:26
It's called the sunga'.
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它叫做sunga。
09:28
And like a thread, it should be allowed to unspool
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就像一根线，它从一头拉到另一头
09:32
to its natural end.
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直到自然终止。
09:34
So by having death as a part
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所以，死亡作为
09:37
of the cultural and social fabric of life,
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文化和社会生活结构的一部分，
09:41
people's everyday decisions about their health
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使得人们对于他们健康和医疗服务的
09:44
and healthcare are affected.
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日常抉择也被影响。
09:47
The patriarch of my husband's maternal clan,
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我丈夫母系氏族的族长
09:51
Nenet Katcha,
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他叫Nenet Katcha,
09:53
is now approaching the age of 100, as far as we can tell.
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据我们所知，已接近 100 岁的高龄。
09:58
And there are increasing signs
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有越来越多的迹象表明
10:00
that he is about to depart on his own journey for Puya.
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他正在向迈向死亡的路途中。
10:05
And his death will be greatly mourned.
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他的死亡会引发强烈的哀悼。
10:10
But I know that my husband's family
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但我知道我丈夫的家族
10:12
looks forward to the moment
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期待着这个时刻
10:14
when they can ritually display
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因为那时他们就可以用仪式展示
10:18
what his remarkable presence has meant to their lives,
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他卓越的成就对他们生活的意义
10:23
when they can ritually recount
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他们可以用仪式来记录
10:25
his life's narrative,
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他的生活故事，
10:27
weaving his story
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使他的故事编入
10:28
into the history of their community.
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他们社区的历史。
10:32
His story is their story.
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他的故事就是他们的故事。
10:36
His funeral songs will sing them a song about themselves.
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他的葬礼之歌也是他们的颂扬之歌。
10:42
And it's a story that has no discernible beginning,
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这个故事没有明显开端
10:46
no foreseeable end.
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也没有可预见的结束。
10:48
It's a story that goes on
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这是一个在他的身体腐朽之后，
10:50
long after his body no longer does.
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一直延续的故事。
10:55
People ask me if I'm frightened or repulsed
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人们问我，参与到这种文化中
10:59
by participating in a culture
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是否害怕或不情愿
11:02
where the physical manifestations of death
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因为这其中处处都感到
11:05
greet us at every turn.
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逝者就在你周围。
11:07
But I see something profoundly transformative
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但我看到一些深刻变革
11:10
in experiencing death as a social process
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是将经历死亡作为一个社会进程
11:13
and not just a biological one.
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而不是一种生物进程。
11:17
In reality, the relationship between the living and the dead
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在实际中，活人和死人之间的关系
11:21
has its own drama in the U.S. healthcare system,
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在美国医疗保健系统中有它自己的戏剧性，
11:24
where decisions about how long to stretch
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在决定到底将生命这根线拉多长时
11:26
the thread of life are made based on our emotional
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是根据我们的情感
11:30
and social ties with the people around us,
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和与我们周围人的社会纽带，
11:32
not just on medicine's ability to prolong life.
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不只是基于医学延长生命的能力。
11:37
We, like the Torajans,
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我们如托拉雅人一样
11:40
base our decisions about life
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将生命中的决定
11:43
on the meanings and the definitions
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基于我们赋予死亡的
11:47
that we ascribe to death.
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意义和定义。
11:49
So I'm not suggesting that anyone in this audience
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所以我不是建议在座的所有人
11:52
should run out and adopt the traditions
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放弃美国的医疗保健
11:55
of the Torajans.
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而采取托拉雅人的传统。
11:56
It might be a little bit difficult
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要将托拉雅模式在美国应用
11:58
to put into play in the United States.
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可能会有点困难。
12:01
But I want to ask what we can gain
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但我想问，当我们将死亡不仅看做一个生物的过程
12:03
from seeing physical death not only as a biological process
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而看做更广阔的人类历史的一部分
12:08
but as part of the greater human story.
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能收获什么？
12:12
What would it be like to look on
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当我们真情地看着死者的身体
12:15
the expired human form with love
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而那曾是我们生命中不可或缺的一部分
12:18
because it's so intimately a part of who we all are?
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会是一种什么感觉？
12:22
If we could expand our definition of death
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如果我们可以扩展我们对死亡的定义
12:25
to encompass life,
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以涵盖生活，
12:27
we could experience death as part of life
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我们可能会体会到将死亡作为生活的一部分
12:31
and perhaps face death
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面对死亡时绝非恐惧
12:33
with something other than fear.
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而是其他的感觉。
12:38
Perhaps one of the answers to the challenges
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美国医疗保健系统
12:41
that are facing the U.S. healthcare system,
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正面临挑战，特别是对于老年医保。
12:43
particularly in the end-of-life care,
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一个可能的解决方法
12:46
is as simple as a shift in perspective,
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就是转变看它的角度。
12:49
and the shift in perspective in this case
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而在这个例子中的转变
12:51
would be to look at the social life of every death.
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就是去看看逝者的社会生活。
12:57
It might help us recognize that the way we limit
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它可以帮助我们认识到
13:00
our conversation about death
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我们讨论死亡时
13:02
to something that's medical or biological
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总是局限于医学性、生物性
13:05
is reflective of a larger culture that we all share
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这反映了我们都是如何
13:09
of avoiding death, being afraid of talking about it.
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避免死亡，害怕谈论它。
13:14
If we could entertain and value
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如果我们能够接纳和重视
13:19
other kinds of knowledge about life,
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关于生命的其他知识
13:22
including other definitions of death,
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包括对死亡的其他定义，
13:25
it has the potential to change the discussions
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它才有可能改变
13:28
that we have about the end of life.
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我们关于生命终结的讨论。
13:31
It could change the way that we die,
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它可以改变我们死亡的方式，
13:35
but more importantly,
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但更重要的是，
13:37
it could transform the way that we live.
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它可以改变我们生活的方式。
13:45
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Kelli Swazey - AnthropologistKelli Swazey examines how religious and spiritual practices form group identity, and play a vital role in structuring the interactions of individuals within a culture.
Why you should listen
Kelli Swazey is fascinated by two big questions: how do we know who we are, and how does our identity shape interactions with others? As a cultural anthropologist, Swazey has explored these ideas by researching how religion, spirituality and politics define society in Indonesia, where she has lived for more than 10 years. Swazey is currently a lecturer at the Center for Cross-Cultural and Religious Studies at Gadjah Mada University.
In her research, Swazey has looked at Christian-Muslim relations in North Sulawesi, documented Indonesian church services in New England and taken an interest in the funeral practices in Tana Toraja, located in eastern Indonesia. Her husband is an ethnic Torajan, and Swazey found herself fascinated by his stories of playing with his grandfather long after he was dead. Examinging the way Torajans make death a unique part of village life has deeply influenced her own thoughts on the end of life, she says. This is why she loves anthropology: because thinking about human difference has the power to teach us about ourselves.
Swazey has also embarked on an unusual cultural tour of Indonesia: she is learning to sing a song from every province.
Watch Swazey's TEDxUbud 2018 talk here.
Kelli Swazey | Speaker | TED.com