TEDSummit 2019
Jochen Wegner: What happened when we paired up thousands of strangers to talk politics
约翰 · 魏格纳: 当我们配对成千的陌生人来讨论政治，会发生什么？
Filmed:
Readability: 4.5
1,543,481 views
2019 年春天，来自 33 个国家的超过 17000 个欧洲人报名和素不相识的陌生人进行一场政治争论。他们是“欧洲说”的一份子，这是一个将意见相左的人配对进行一对一谈话的项目——有点像是政治版的 Tinder。编辑约翰 · 魏格纳（Jochen Wegner）分享了当人们见面交谈时发生的预期之外的事情——并且展示了面对面谈话如何让分裂的世界重新进行自我反思。
Jochen Wegner - Journalist
Jochen Wegner edits Zeit Online, the website of German weekly "Die Zeit," which prizes deep dives into cultural issues. Full bio
Jochen Wegner edits Zeit Online, the website of German weekly "Die Zeit," which prizes deep dives into cultural issues. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Now, this is Joanna.
0
639
1773
这是乔安娜，
00:14
Joanna works at a university in Poland.
1
2436
3542
她在波兰的一所大学工作。
00:18
And one Saturday morning at 3am,
2
6002
2925
一个周六的凌晨三点，
00:20
she got up, packed her rucksack
3
8951
2320
她起床，整理好她的背包，
00:23
and traveled more than
a thousand kilometers,
a thousand kilometers,
4
11295
2749
奔波了一千多公里的路程，
00:26
only to have a political argument
5
14068
2432
只为了和一个陌生人进行一场
00:28
with a stranger.
6
16524
1740
政治辩论。
00:31
His name is Christof,
and he's a customer manager from Germany.
and he's a customer manager from Germany.
7
19375
3617
他叫克里斯多夫，
是一位德国的客户经理。
是一位德国的客户经理。
00:35
And the two had never met before.
8
23016
1579
这两人素未谋面。
00:36
They only knew that they were
totally at odds over European politics,
totally at odds over European politics,
9
24619
4714
他们只知道他们
对于欧洲政治、移民、
对于欧洲政治、移民、
00:41
over migration, or the relationship
to Russia or whatever.
to Russia or whatever.
10
29357
3394
和俄罗斯的关系等话题，
观点完全相左。
观点完全相左。
00:45
And they were arguing for almost one day.
11
33289
3115
他们争论了差不多一整天。
00:49
And after that, Joanna sent me
a somewhat irritating email.
a somewhat irritating email.
12
37227
5479
之后，乔安娜发给我了一封
有一些恼人的邮件。
有一些恼人的邮件。
00:56
"That was really cool, and I enjoyed
every single minute of it!"
every single minute of it!"
13
44088
4184
“这真的很酷，我享受
这过程的每一分钟！”
这过程的每一分钟！”
01:00
(Laughter)
14
48296
1388
（笑声）
01:01
So these are Tom from the UK
and Nils from Germany.
and Nils from Germany.
15
49708
4959
这是来自英国的汤姆
和来自德国的尼尔斯。
和来自德国的尼尔斯。
01:06
They also were strangers,
16
54691
1647
他们也是陌生人，
01:08
and they are both supporters
of their local football team,
of their local football team,
17
56362
2995
他们都是当地足球俱乐部的球迷，
01:11
as you may imagine, Borussia Dortmund
and Tottenham Hotspurs.
and Tottenham Hotspurs.
18
59381
5146
各位可以想见，也就是多特蒙德
和托特纳姆热刺俱乐部。
和托特纳姆热刺俱乐部。
他们在足球的发源地见面，
01:16
And so they met on the very spot
where football roots were invented,
where football roots were invented,
19
64551
3192
01:19
on some field in Cambridge.
20
67767
2317
位于剑桥的某块平原上。
01:22
And they didn't argue about football,
21
70108
2054
他们并没有在争论足球，
01:24
but about Brexit.
22
72186
1881
而是在讨论英国脱欧（Brexit）。
01:26
And after talking for many hours
about this contentious topic,
about this contentious topic,
23
74781
4605
在讨论了这个充满争议的话题
几个小时之后，
几个小时之后，
01:31
they also sent a rather unexpected email.
24
79410
3989
他们也发给我了一封
完全出乎意料的邮件。
完全出乎意料的邮件。
01:35
"It was delightful, and we both
enjoyed it very much."
enjoyed it very much."
25
83423
4457
“太美好了，我们两人
都很享受整个过程。”
都很享受整个过程。”
01:39
(Laughter)
26
87904
1235
（笑声）
01:41
So in spring 2019,
27
89163
5692
2019 年的春天，
01:46
more than 17,000 Europeans
from 33 countries
from 33 countries
28
94879
5354
来自 33 个国家的超过 17000 欧洲人
01:52
signed up to have a political argument.
29
100257
2941
报名来进行政治辩论。
01:55
Thousands crossed their borders to meet
a stranger with a different opinion,
a stranger with a different opinion,
30
103792
4602
数千人跨越国界，
去见一个有着相反观点的陌生人，
去见一个有着相反观点的陌生人，
02:00
and they were all part of a project
called "Europe Talks."
called "Europe Talks."
31
108418
4400
他们都是“欧洲说”这个项目的一份子。
02:05
Now, talking about politics
amongst people with different opinions
amongst people with different opinions
32
113778
4110
如今，与意见不同的人讨论政治
02:09
has become really difficult,
33
117912
2792
已经变得十分困难，
02:12
not only in Europe.
34
120728
1419
不仅是在欧洲。
02:14
Families are splitting,
friends no longer talk to each other.
friends no longer talk to each other.
35
122171
3559
家人会因此撕破脸，
朋友之间陷入沉默。
朋友之间陷入沉默。
02:17
We stay in our bubbles.
36
125754
1508
我们待在属于自己的气泡中。
02:19
And these so-called filter bubbles
are amplified by social media,
are amplified by social media,
37
127742
4805
而这些所谓的“过滤气泡”
被社交网络进一步放大，
被社交网络进一步放大，
02:24
but they are not,
in the core, a digital product.
in the core, a digital product.
38
132571
3647
但是它们本质上来说
并不是数字产物。
并不是数字产物。
02:28
The filter bubble has always been there.
39
136242
2375
“过滤气泡”一直存在。
02:30
It's in our minds.
40
138641
2298
它在我们的脑中。
02:32
As many studies repeatedly have shown,
41
140963
3414
许多研究不断显示，
02:36
we, for example, ignore effects
that contradict our convictions.
that contradict our convictions.
42
144401
6271
我们会忽视与我们
所持观点相左的影响。
所持观点相左的影响。
02:42
So correcting fake news
is definitely necessary,
is definitely necessary,
43
150696
3667
所以纠正假新闻
当然是有必要的，
当然是有必要的，
02:46
but it's not sufficient
to get a divided society
to get a divided society
44
154387
3869
但是光这样还不足以
让分裂的社会进行自省。
02:50
to rethink itself.
45
158280
1482
02:52
Fortunately, according to
at least some research,
at least some research,
46
160730
3281
幸运的是，至少根据一些研究，
02:56
there may be a simple way
to get a new perspective:
to get a new perspective:
47
164035
3731
也许有一种简单的方法
来获得新的视角：
来获得新的视角：
02:59
a personal one-on-one discussion
48
167790
3092
和不同意你的观点的人
03:02
with someone who doesn't
have your opinion.
have your opinion.
49
170906
3105
来进行一对一的交谈。
03:06
It enables you to see
the world in a new way,
the world in a new way,
50
174891
3456
这让你能以全新的视角
看待这个世界，
看待这个世界，
03:10
through someone else's eyes.
51
178371
2983
透过别人的视角。
03:14
Now, I'm the editor of "ZEIT ONLINE,"
52
182824
3299
我是《时代在线》的编辑，
03:18
one of the major digital
news organizations in Germany.
news organizations in Germany.
53
186147
4043
这是德国最主要的电子新闻机构之一。
03:22
And we started what became "Europe Talks"
as a really modest editorial exercise.
as a really modest editorial exercise.
54
190214
5668
“欧洲说”的这个项目的前身，
最初只是个小小的编辑测试。
最初只是个小小的编辑测试。
03:28
As many journalists,
55
196392
1511
和诸多记者一样，
03:29
we were impressed by Trump and by Brexit,
56
197927
3691
我们无法不去关注
川普和英国脱欧，
川普和英国脱欧，
03:33
and Germany was getting divided, too,
especially over the issue of migration.
especially over the issue of migration.
57
201642
4612
而德国也正在分裂之中，
尤其是关于移民的议题。
尤其是关于移民的议题。
03:38
So the arrival of more than
a million refugees in 2015 and 2016
a million refugees in 2015 and 2016
58
206278
5219
2015 和 2016 年，
超过百万的难民的涌入
超过百万的难民的涌入
03:43
dominated somewhat the debate.
59
211521
2574
以某种方式主导了这场辩论。
03:46
And when we were thinking
about our own upcoming election in 2017,
about our own upcoming election in 2017,
60
214119
4900
当时我们在思考我们自己
即将进行的 2017 年选举时，
即将进行的 2017 年选举时，
03:51
we definitely knew that we had to reinvent
the way we were dealing with politics.
the way we were dealing with politics.
61
219043
5209
我们明确的知道，需要
重塑我们处理政治的方式。
重塑我们处理政治的方式。
03:56
So digital nerds that we are,
62
224920
2916
所以我们这些数字怪才
03:59
we came up with obviously
many very strange digital product ideas,
many very strange digital product ideas,
63
227860
5654
想出了许多奇怪的数字产品的点子，
04:06
one of them being a Tinder for politics --
64
234466
3166
其中之一就是 Tinder
（约会APP) 的政治版——
（约会APP) 的政治版——
04:09
(Laughter)
65
237656
2271
（笑声）
04:11
a dating platform for political opposites,
66
239951
4768
一个面向政治相左者的约会平台，
04:16
a tool that could help get people
together with different opinions.
together with different opinions.
67
244743
3720
一个联结持有不同观点的人的工具。
04:20
And we decided to test it
68
248913
2180
我们决定测试一下，
04:23
and launched what techies would call
a "minimum viable product."
a "minimum viable product."
69
251117
4764
推出了技术人员称作的
“最简可行产品”。
“最简可行产品”。
04:27
So it was really simple.
70
255905
1711
这非常简单。
04:29
We called it "Deutschland spricht" --
"Germany Talks" --
"Germany Talks" --
71
257969
3950
我们叫它 “Deutschland spricht”——
“德国说”——
“德国说”——
04:33
and we started with that in May 2017.
72
261943
5288
并于 2017 年 5 月开始推出。
04:39
And it was really simple.
73
267930
2585
它真的很简单。
04:42
We used mainly Google Forms,
74
270539
2540
我们主要使用了谷歌表格，
04:45
a tool that each and every one of us here
can use to make surveys online.
can use to make surveys online.
75
273103
5429
在座的各位都会使用的
进行在线调查的工具。
进行在线调查的工具。
04:51
And everywhere in our content,
we embedded simple questions like this:
we embedded simple questions like this:
76
279032
5110
我们的问卷中包含着
像这样的简单问题：
像这样的简单问题：
04:56
"Did Germany take in too many refugees?"
77
284166
3968
“德国接受了过多的难民吗？”
05:00
You click yes or no.
78
288158
1815
你可以选择是或者否。
05:02
We asked you more questions, like,
"Does the West treat Russia fairly?"
"Does the West treat Russia fairly?"
79
290475
4675
我们会问更多的问题，比如
“西方是否公平的对待了俄罗斯？”
“西方是否公平的对待了俄罗斯？”
05:07
or, "Should gay couples
be allowed to marry?"
be allowed to marry?"
80
295174
2863
或是“同性恋可以结婚吗？”
05:10
And if you answered all these questions,
we asked one more question:
we asked one more question:
81
298061
3240
如果你回答了所有这些问题，
我们会再问一个问题：
我们会再问一个问题：
05:13
"Hey, would you like to meet a neighbor
who totally disagrees with you?"
who totally disagrees with you?"
82
301325
4503
“嘿，你想和一位与你意见
完全相左的邻居见个面吗？”
完全相左的邻居见个面吗？”
05:17
(Laughter)
83
305852
2094
（笑声）
05:20
So this was a really simple experiment
with no budget whatsoever.
with no budget whatsoever.
84
308574
5008
这真的是个非常
简单的实验，没什么预算。
简单的实验，没什么预算。
05:25
We expected some
hundred-ish people to register,
hundred-ish people to register,
85
313606
4528
我们预估会有百来个人报名，
05:30
and we planned to match them
by hand, the pairs.
by hand, the pairs.
86
318158
3356
然后我们计划人工将他们配对。
05:34
And after one day,
1,000 people had registered.
1,000 people had registered.
87
322340
5302
一天之后，一千个人报名了。
05:39
And after some weeks,
12,000 Germans had signed up
12,000 Germans had signed up
88
327666
4981
几个礼拜之后，
一万两千个德国人报名
一万两千个德国人报名
05:44
to meet someone else
with a different opinion.
with a different opinion.
89
332671
2494
想要见见持有不同意见的陌生人。
05:47
So we had a problem.
90
335189
1471
我们遇到了麻烦。
05:48
(Laughter)
91
336684
2130
（笑声）
05:50
We hacked a quick and dirty algorithm
92
338838
2859
我们采用了一种快速且粗糙的算法，
05:53
that would find
the perfect Tinder matches,
the perfect Tinder matches,
93
341721
3089
能找到最完美的 Tinder 配对，
05:56
like people living as close as possible
having answered the questions
having answered the questions
94
344834
4482
像是居住的尽可能接近，
但是对同样问题的答案
但是对同样问题的答案
06:01
as differently as possible.
95
349340
1983
尽可能相反的人。
06:04
We introduced them via email.
96
352312
2654
我们通过邮件介绍他们。
06:07
And, as you may imagine,
we had many concerns.
we had many concerns.
97
355767
3735
你们可能也想到了，
我们有许多顾虑。
我们有许多顾虑。
06:12
Maybe no one would show up in real life.
98
360359
3573
也许没人会在现实生活中出现。
06:16
Maybe all the discussions
in real life would be awful.
in real life would be awful.
99
364638
4299
也许现实中的讨论会变得很糟。
06:21
Or maybe we had an axe murderer
in our database.
in our database.
100
369575
2937
也许我们的数据库中
有个斧子杀人犯。
有个斧子杀人犯。
06:24
(Laughter)
101
372536
1410
（笑声）
06:26
But then, on a Sunday in June 2017,
102
374969
4670
但是在 2017 年 6 月的一个星期天，
06:31
something beautiful happened.
103
379663
1838
美好的事情发生了。
06:34
Thousands of Germans met in pairs
and talked about politics peacefully.
and talked about politics peacefully.
104
382626
5645
成千的德国人成对相见，
和平地讨论了政治问题。
和平地讨论了政治问题。
06:40
Like Anno.
105
388823
1191
像是阿诺。
06:42
He's a former policeman who's against --
or was against -- gay marriage,
or was against -- gay marriage,
106
390038
4811
他曾经是一名警察，反对——
或是以前反对——同性婚姻，
或是以前反对——同性婚姻，
06:46
and Anne, she's an engineer who lives
in a domestic partnership
in a domestic partnership
107
394873
3763
以及安娜，她是一位
与女性处于同居关系的
与女性处于同居关系的
06:50
with another woman.
108
398660
1380
工程师。
06:52
And they were talking
for hours about all the topics
for hours about all the topics
109
400641
2489
他们对所持观点不同的议题
06:55
where they had different opinions.
110
403154
2227
进行了数个小时的讨论。
06:57
At one point, Anno told us later,
111
405860
2505
在某一刻，阿诺后来告诉我们，
07:00
he realized that Anne was hurt
by his statements about gay marriage,
by his statements about gay marriage,
112
408389
6298
他意识到安娜因他对于
同性婚姻的观点而受到了伤害，
同性婚姻的观点而受到了伤害，
07:06
and he started to question
his own assumptions.
his own assumptions.
113
414711
3048
他转而开始质疑自己的假设。
07:09
And after talking for three hours,
114
417783
2284
在讨论了三个小时之后，
07:12
Anne invited Anno to her summer party,
115
420091
3415
安娜要求阿诺来她的夏日聚会，
07:15
and today, years later,
116
423530
2194
在几年之后的今天，
07:17
they still meet from time to time
and are friends.
and are friends.
117
425748
3324
他们依旧会偶尔见面，
还是朋友关系。
还是朋友关系。
07:21
So our algorithm matched,
for example, this court bailiff.
for example, this court bailiff.
118
429096
4296
我们的算法还配对了
比如说这个法警。
比如说这个法警。
07:25
He's also a spokesperson of the right-wing
populist party AfD in Germany,
populist party AfD in Germany,
119
433416
6086
他还是德国右翼民粹政党
“选择党” (AfD) 的发言人，
“选择党” (AfD) 的发言人，
07:31
and this counselor for pregnant women.
120
439526
1866
配对对象是位孕妇顾问。
07:33
She used to be an active member
of the Green Party.
of the Green Party.
121
441416
2792
她曾经是绿党的积极分子。
07:36
We even matched this professor
and his student.
and his student.
122
444791
4568
我们甚至配对了
这位教授和他的学生。
这位教授和他的学生。
07:41
(Laughter)
123
449802
3609
（笑声）
07:45
It's an algorithm.
124
453435
1246
这就是算法。
07:47
(Laughter)
125
455504
1140
（笑声）
07:48
We also matched a father-in-law
and his very own daughter-in-law,
and his very own daughter-in-law,
126
456668
6336
我们还配对了岳父
和他自己的儿媳，
和他自己的儿媳，
07:55
because, obviously, they live close by
but have really different opinions.
but have really different opinions.
127
463028
4763
因为，显然他们住得很近，
而又持有不一样的观点。
而又持有不一样的观点。
07:59
So as a general rule,
128
467815
1569
我们的一般原则是，
08:01
we did not observe, record,
document the discussions,
document the discussions,
129
469408
4389
我们不会观察记录这些讨论，
08:05
because we didn't want
people to perform in any way.
people to perform in any way.
130
473821
3320
因为我们不想让人们进行表演。
08:09
But I made an exception.
131
477165
2124
但是我破了个例。
08:11
I took part myself.
132
479313
1643
我自己也参加了。
08:12
And so I met in my trendy Berlin
neighborhood called Prenzlauer Berg,
neighborhood called Prenzlauer Berg,
133
480980
5186
我在柏林的潮流街区
普伦茨劳贝格区
普伦茨劳贝格区
08:18
I met Mirko.
134
486190
1448
见到了莫尔科。
08:20
This is me talking to Mirko.
Mirko didn't want to be in the picture.
Mirko didn't want to be in the picture.
135
488282
3736
这是我和莫尔科讨论的场景。
莫尔科不想出现在画面里。
莫尔科不想出现在画面里。
08:24
He's a young plant operator,
136
492042
2195
他是个年轻的设备操作员，
08:26
and he looked like
all the hipsters in our area,
all the hipsters in our area,
137
494261
2453
他就像我们区域的其他嬉皮士一样，
08:28
like with a beard and a beanie.
138
496738
2182
留着胡子，带着便帽。
08:30
We were talking for hours,
and I found him to be a wonderful person.
and I found him to be a wonderful person.
139
498944
5454
我们交谈了几个小时，
我觉得他是个很棒的人。
我觉得他是个很棒的人。
08:36
And despite the fact that we had
really different opinions
really different opinions
140
504422
2788
尽管我们对大部分的话题
都有着不同的观点——
08:39
about most of the topics --
141
507234
2336
08:41
maybe with the exception
of women's rights,
of women's rights,
142
509594
2241
也许除了女性权利，
08:43
where I couldn't comprehend
his thoughts --
his thoughts --
143
511859
3291
我完全不能理解他的看法——
08:47
it was really nice.
144
515174
1761
这是场很不错的对话。
08:48
After our discussion, I Googled Mirko.
145
516959
2464
在交流后，我上网查询了莫尔科。
08:52
And I found out that in his teenage years,
he used to be a neo-Nazi.
he used to be a neo-Nazi.
146
520682
5040
我发现在青年时期，
他曾是一名新纳粹。
他曾是一名新纳粹。
08:59
So I called him and asked,
147
527349
2000
所以我打电话给他，问他，
09:01
"Hey, why didn't you tell me?"
148
529373
1710
“嘿，你为什么不和我说呢？”
09:03
And he said, "You know, I didn't tell you
because I want to get over it.
because I want to get over it.
149
531107
4336
他说，“我没告诉你是因为
我想让这件事情过去。
我想让这件事情过去。
09:07
I just don't want
to talk about it anymore."
to talk about it anymore."
150
535467
3041
我只是不想再讨论这件事情了。”
09:13
I thought that people with
a history like that could never change,
a history like that could never change,
151
541005
6981
我曾经认为有着这样历史的人
不可能会改变，
不可能会改变，
09:20
and I had to rethink my assumptions,
152
548010
3256
而现在我要重新审视自己的假设了，
09:23
as did many of the participants
who sent us thousands of emails
who sent us thousands of emails
153
551290
4446
就像众多给我们发送邮件和照片的
09:27
and also selfies.
154
555760
2685
参与者一样。
09:32
No violence was recorded whatsoever.
155
560535
2342
目前我们还没有碰到任何暴力事件。
09:34
(Laughter)
156
562901
1033
（笑声）
09:35
And we just don't know
if some of the pairs got married.
if some of the pairs got married.
157
563958
3745
我们也不知道
有没有人因此喜结良缘。
有没有人因此喜结良缘。
09:39
(Laughter)
158
567727
1415
（笑声）
09:41
But, at least, we were really excited
and wanted to do it again,
and wanted to do it again,
159
569166
4912
但是，至少我们十分兴奋，
并想再做一次，
并想再做一次，
09:46
especially in version 2.0,
160
574102
2529
尤其是在 2.0 的版本中，
09:48
wanted to expand the diversity
of the participants,
of the participants,
161
576655
3725
我们想扩大参与者的多样性，
09:52
because obviously in the first round,
they were mainly our readers.
they were mainly our readers.
162
580404
4135
因为在第一轮中，
参与者主要是我们的读者。
参与者主要是我们的读者。
09:57
And so we embraced our competition
163
585118
2236
所以我们接受了竞争，
09:59
and asked other media outlets to join.
164
587378
4279
让其他媒体参与了进来。
10:03
We coordinated via Slack.
165
591681
2238
我们通过 Slack
（团队沟通 APP）软件协作。
（团队沟通 APP）软件协作。
10:06
And this live collaboration
among 11 major German media houses
among 11 major German media houses
166
594556
5054
这场涉及 11 个主要
德国新闻媒体的在线合作，
德国新闻媒体的在线合作，
10:11
was definitely a first in Germany.
167
599634
2175
绝对是德国史上的第一次。
10:13
The numbers more than doubled:
28,000 people applied this time.
28,000 people applied this time.
168
601833
5754
参与者数字翻倍了：
这次有两万八千个人申请。
这次有两万八千个人申请。
10:19
And the German president --
169
607611
1380
德国总统——
10:21
you see him here
in the center of the picture --
in the center of the picture --
170
609015
2324
他在这张照片的中间——
10:23
became our patron.
171
611363
1571
是我们的赞助人。
10:24
And so, thousands of Germans met again
in the summer of 2018
in the summer of 2018
172
612958
6370
所以，2018 年的夏天，
数千个德国人又一次见面，
数千个德国人又一次见面，
10:31
to talk to someone else
with a different opinion.
with a different opinion.
173
619352
2311
与持不同观点的陌生人对话。
10:33
Some of the pairs we invited
to Berlin to a special event.
to Berlin to a special event.
174
621687
3688
有些配对被我们邀请到柏林
参加一场特殊的活动。
参加一场特殊的活动。
10:37
And there, this picture was taken,
175
625399
1961
在那里，我们拍下了这张照片，
10:39
until today my favorite symbol
for "Germany Talks."
for "Germany Talks."
176
627384
4185
至今仍是我最喜欢的
“德国说”的象征。
“德国说”的象征。
10:43
You see Henrik,
a bus driver and boxing trainer,
a bus driver and boxing trainer,
177
631593
3507
照片中的人是
汽车司机兼拳击教练亨利克，
汽车司机兼拳击教练亨利克，
10:47
and Engelbert, the director
of a children's help center.
of a children's help center.
178
635124
4113
以及儿童帮扶中心主任安格伯特。
10:51
They answered all of the seven questions
we asked differently.
we asked differently.
179
639261
3991
他们对我们问的所有七个问题
给出了完全不同的答案。
给出了完全不同的答案。
10:55
They had never met before this day,
180
643704
2710
在这天之前他们从未见过面，
10:58
and they had a really intensive discussion
181
646438
2172
他们进行了一场十分紧张的交谈，
11:00
and seemed to get along anyway
182
648634
3355
但两人似乎又十分
11:04
with each other.
183
652013
1263
相处得来。
11:05
So this time we also wanted to know
184
653877
1959
所以这次我们还想知道
11:07
if the discussion would have
any impact on the participants.
any impact on the participants.
185
655860
5544
这种对话是否对参与者有任何影响。
11:13
So we asked researchers
to survey the participants.
to survey the participants.
186
661428
3442
所以我们让研究人员询问了参与者。
11:17
And two-thirds of the participants said
that they learned something
that they learned something
187
665410
4312
三分之二的受访者觉得
他们从对方的观点中
他们从对方的观点中
11:21
about their partner's attitudes.
188
669746
2152
学到了一些东西。
11:23
Sixty percent agreed
that their viewpoints converged.
that their viewpoints converged.
189
671922
4557
百分之六十的人同意，
他们的观点变得接近了。
他们的观点变得接近了。
11:28
The level of trust in society
seemed also higher after the event,
seemed also higher after the event,
190
676503
4203
根据研究人员，
在谈话过后，对于社会的信任
在谈话过后，对于社会的信任
11:32
according to the researchers.
191
680730
1602
似乎也变高了。
11:34
Ninety percent said that
they enjoyed their discussion.
they enjoyed their discussion.
192
682356
3565
90% 的人说，
他们很享受他们的对话。
他们很享受他们的对话。
11:37
Ten percent said they didn't
enjoy their discussion,
enjoy their discussion,
193
685945
2956
10% 的人说，
他们不享受这场对话，
他们不享受这场对话，
11:40
eight percent only because,
simply, their partner didn't show up.
simply, their partner didn't show up.
194
688925
4021
这仅仅是因为，其中8% 的人
的配对并没有出现。
的配对并没有出现。
11:44
(Laughter)
195
692970
1714
（笑声）
11:46
After "Germany Talks," we got approached
by many international media outlets,
by many international media outlets,
196
694708
4924
在“德国说”之后，
许多国际媒体和我们进行了接触，
许多国际媒体和我们进行了接触，
11:51
and we decided this time to build
a serious and secure platform.
a serious and secure platform.
197
699656
5157
这次我们决定构建一个
严肃且安全的平台。
严肃且安全的平台。
11:57
We called it "My Country Talks."
198
705411
1997
我们称之为“国家说”。
11:59
And in this short period of time,
"My Country Talks" has already been used
"My Country Talks" has already been used
199
707813
5165
在这么短的时间里，
“国家说”已经被超过
“国家说”已经被超过
12:05
for more than a dozen
local and national events
local and national events
200
713002
2871
十几个地方和国家级活动使用了，
12:07
like "Het grote gelijk" in Belgium
or "Suomi puhuu" in Finland
or "Suomi puhuu" in Finland
201
715897
5118
像是比利时的“比利时说（Het grote gelijk）”，
或是芬兰的“芬兰说（Suomi puhuu）”，
或是芬兰的“芬兰说（Suomi puhuu）”，
12:13
or "Britain Talks" in the UK.
202
721039
2068
或是英国的“英国说（Britain Talks）”。
12:15
And as I mentioned at the beginning,
we also launched "Europe Talks,"
we also launched "Europe Talks,"
203
723790
4976
像我最开始提到的，
我们也与 15 个国际媒体伙伴一起
我们也与 15 个国际媒体伙伴一起
12:20
together with 15
international media partners,
international media partners,
204
728790
2274
推出了“欧洲说”，
12:23
from the "Financial Times" in the UK
to "Helsingin Sanomat" in Finland.
to "Helsingin Sanomat" in Finland.
205
731088
6272
从英国的《金融时报》到
芬兰的《赫尔辛基时报》。
芬兰的《赫尔辛基时报》。
12:29
Thousands of Europeans met
with a total stranger
with a total stranger
206
737384
2893
成千的欧洲人与
从未谋面的陌生人见面，
从未谋面的陌生人见面，
12:32
to argue about politics.
207
740301
1776
来讨论政治。
12:34
So far, we have been approached
by more than 150 global media outlets,
by more than 150 global media outlets,
208
742688
5480
截止到现在，我们已经
被超过 150 家国际媒体接触，
被超过 150 家国际媒体接触，
12:40
and maybe someday there will be
something like "The World Talks,"
something like "The World Talks,"
209
748192
3111
也许有一天会有
像是“世界说”这样的东西，
像是“世界说”这样的东西，
12:43
with hundreds of thousands
of participants.
of participants.
210
751327
2568
拥有成百上千的参与者。
12:45
But what matters here are not the numbers,
211
753919
4164
但是重要的不是数字，
12:51
obviously.
212
759070
1347
这显而易见。
12:53
What matters here is ...
213
761727
1480
重要的是……
12:55
Whenever two people meet
to talk in person for hours
to talk in person for hours
214
763764
4050
当两个人见面，
当面谈论数个小时，
当面谈论数个小时，
12:59
without anyone else listening,
215
767838
3195
没有旁人听着，
13:03
they change.
216
771057
1150
他们会改变。
13:04
And so do our societies.
217
772706
1579
我们的社会也会改变。
13:06
They change little by little,
discussion by discussion.
discussion by discussion.
218
774309
3764
他们会一点一点的改变，
随着讨论改变。
随着讨论改变。
13:10
What matters here is that we relearn
219
778097
2992
重要的是我们会重新学会
13:13
how to have these
face-to-face discussions,
face-to-face discussions,
220
781113
3092
如何进行这样的面对面讨论，
13:16
without anyone else listening,
221
784229
2204
和一个陌生人的讨论，
13:18
with a stranger.
222
786457
1270
没有旁人在听。
13:19
Not only with a stranger
we are introduced to
we are introduced to
223
787751
2647
不仅是和我们通过政治 Tinder
13:22
by a Tinder for politics,
224
790422
2262
介绍的陌生人，
13:24
but also with a stranger in a pub
or in a gym or at a conference.
or in a gym or at a conference.
225
792708
4749
还包括和酒吧、健身房
或是会议上的陌生人讨论。
或是会议上的陌生人讨论。
13:30
So please meet someone
226
798259
2012
所以，请找个人见个面，
13:32
and have an argument
227
800295
1510
进行一场辩论，
13:33
and enjoy it very much.
228
801829
1888
好好享受吧。
13:35
Thank you.
229
803741
1272
谢谢。
13:37
(Applause)
230
805037
3819
（掌声）
13:40
Wow!
231
808880
1152
哇！
13:42
(Applause)
232
810056
2080
（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jochen Wegner - JournalistJochen Wegner edits Zeit Online, the website of German weekly "Die Zeit," which prizes deep dives into cultural issues.
Why you should listen
Jochen Wegner never thought he could make a living out of writing, yet ultimately he found himself editing Zeit Online, one of Germany's major media websites. With a team of 150, Zeit Online delivers around-the-clock information about breaking and developing stories, distinguished by deep reporting and data visualizations. Zeit also hosts a number of Germany's most popular podcasts.
By taking journalism beyond reporting and into the realm of real-time discussion, Wegner is creating tools that could change the political climate by encouraging wide varieties of people to engage in public discourse. His "My Country Talks" platform organizes personal, one-on-one conversations between people from all over the ideological map, inviting them to find common ground between viewpoints that are at first seemingly irreconcilable.
Jochen Wegner | Speaker | TED.com