TEDxPortofSpain
Afra Raymond: Three myths about corruption
Afra Rejmond: Tri mita o korupciji
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Zahvaljujući nafti, Trinidad i Tobago je '70-ih godina zgrnuo veliko bogatstvo. Ali je 1982. godine otkrivena šokantna činjenica: Dvije trećina novca namijenjene za razvoj je protraćeno ili ukradeno. To već 30 godina proganja Afra Raymond-a. Bacajući svjetlo na neprekidnu prošlost vladine korupcije, Raymond nam daje drugačiji prikaz finansijskog kriminala.
(Snimljeno na TEDx-u u Port-of-Spain-u.)
Afra Raymond - Transparency activist
A leading expert in the fields of property valuation and project management, Afra Raymond is battling the government corruption rampant in his country, Trinidad and Tobago. Full bio
A leading expert in the fields of property valuation and project management, Afra Raymond is battling the government corruption rampant in his country, Trinidad and Tobago. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:16
Okay, this morning I'm speaking
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Jutros ću da vam pričam
00:18
on the question of corruption.
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o problemu korupcije.
00:21
And corruption is defined
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Korupcija se definiše
00:23
as the abuse of a position of trust
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kao zloupotreba položaja
00:29
for the benefit of yourself -- or, in the case of our context,
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radi lične koristi,
ili u kontekstu ove priče,
ili u kontekstu ove priče,
00:33
your friends, your family or your financiers.
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radi koristi vaših prijatelja,
porodice ili mecena.
porodice ili mecena.
00:35
Okay? Friends, family and financiers.
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Jasno? Prijatelja, porodice i mecena.
00:40
But we need to understand what we understand about corruption,
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Ali, moramo shvatiti šta
razumijemo o korupciji.
razumijemo o korupciji.
00:44
and we need to understand that
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Moramo da shvatimo
00:47
we have been miseducated about it, and we have to admit that.
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da su nas pogrešno učili o njoj,
i to se mora priznati.
i to se mora priznati.
00:50
We have to have the courage to admit that
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Moramo imati hrabrosti
da to priznamo
da to priznamo
00:52
to start changing how we deal with it.
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da bismo počeli mijenjati
svoj odnos prema njoj.
svoj odnos prema njoj.
00:54
The first thing is that the big myth, number one,
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Prvo, najveći mit je to
00:57
is that in fact it's not really a crime.
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da ona u stvari i nije zločin.
00:59
When we get together with friends and family
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Kada smo sa
prijateljima i porodicom,
prijateljima i porodicom,
01:01
and we discuss crime in our country,
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i kada razgovaramo o kriminalu
u našoj zemlji,
u našoj zemlji,
01:03
crime in Belmont or crime in Diego or crime in Marabella,
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kriminalu u Belmontu,
Diegu ili u Marabeli,
Diegu ili u Marabeli,
01:07
nobody's speaking about corruption.
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niko ne govori o korupciji.
01:08
That's the honest truth.
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To je prava istina.
01:10
When the Commissioner of Police comes on TV to talk about crime,
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Kada policijski komesar
na TV govori o kriminalu,
na TV govori o kriminalu,
01:13
he isn't speaking about corruption.
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on ne govori o korupciji.
01:15
And we know for sure when the Minister of National Security
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Sigurno znamo da ni
ministar sigurnosti,
ministar sigurnosti,
01:17
is speaking about crime, he's not talking about corruption either.
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kada govori o kriminalu,
ne govori o korupciji.
ne govori o korupciji.
01:21
The point I'm making is that it is a crime.
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Poenta je da ona jeste kriminal.
01:24
It is an economic crime, because we're involving the looting of taxpayers' money.
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To je privredni kriminal, jer se
pljačka novac poreskih obveznika.
pljačka novac poreskih obveznika.
01:28
Public and private corruption is a reality.
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Korupcija u javnom i
privatnom sektoru je realnost.
privatnom sektoru je realnost.
01:31
As somebody who comes from the private sector,
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Kao pripadnik privatnog sektora
01:33
I can tell you there's a massive amount of corruption
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mogu vam reći da u njemu
ima jako puno korupcije
ima jako puno korupcije
01:35
in the private sector that has nothing to do with government.
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koja nije povezana sa vladom.
01:38
The same bribes and backhanders and things that take place under the table,
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Ista podmićivanja, mita
i poslovi "ispod stola"
i poslovi "ispod stola"
01:41
it all takes place in the private sector.
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se dešavaju i u privatnom sektoru.
01:43
Today, I'm focusing on public sector corruption,
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Danas ću se fokusirati
na korupciju u javnom sektoru
na korupciju u javnom sektoru
01:47
which the private sector also participates in.
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u kojem i privatni sektor
taođer ima udjela.
taođer ima udjela.
01:50
The second important myth to understand --
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Drugi važan mit
kojeg treba shvatiti,
kojeg treba shvatiti,
01:52
because we have to destroy these myths,
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jer moramo razbiti te mitove,
01:54
dismantle them and destroy them and ridicule them --
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ogoliti ih, rasturiti
i učiniti ih apsurdnim,
i učiniti ih apsurdnim,
01:57
the second important myth to understand
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taj drugi mit kojeg
treba shvatiti
treba shvatiti
01:59
is the one that says
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je onaj u kojem se kaže
02:01
that in fact corruption is only a small problem --
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da je korupcija zapravo
samo mali problem.
samo mali problem.
02:04
if it is a problem, it's only a small problem,
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Ako predstavlja problem,
onda je to mali problem
onda je to mali problem
02:07
that in fact it's only a little 10 or 15 percent,
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koji zapravo čini tek 10-15%,
02:10
it's been going on forever, it probably will continue forever,
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da oduvijek postoji, da će
vjerovatno uvijek postojati,
vjerovatno uvijek postojati,
02:14
and there's no point passing any laws, because there's little we can do about it.
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i da nema svrhe donositi zakone,
jer se malo šta može uraditi.
jer se malo šta može uraditi.
02:18
And I want to demonstrate that that, too,
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Ja želim da pokažem da je i to
02:20
is a dangerous myth, very dangerous.
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veoma opasan mit.
02:22
It's a piece of public mischief.
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To je dio javnog nemara.
02:25
And I want to speak a little bit,
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Želim da govorim malo o
02:27
take us back about 30 years.
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vremenu prije 30 godina.
02:30
We're coming out today from Trinidad and Tobago,
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Danas se javljamo iz
Trinidada i Tobaga,
Trinidada i Tobaga,
02:32
a resource-rich, small Caribbean country,
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male karipske zemlje
bogate prirodnim resursima.
bogate prirodnim resursima.
02:35
and in the early 1970s we had a massive increase in the country's wealth,
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Početkom '70-ih došlo je do
velikog bogaćenja zemlje,
velikog bogaćenja zemlje,
02:40
and that increase was caused by the increase in world oil prices.
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a do toga je došlo zbog rasta
cijena nafe u svijetu.
cijena nafe u svijetu.
02:43
We call them petrodollars. The treasury was bursting with money.
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To nazivamo "petro-dolari".
Državna kasa bila krcata novcem.
Državna kasa bila krcata novcem.
02:46
And it's ironic, because
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Ironija je u tome
02:50
we're standing today in the Central Bank.
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što smo danas u Centralnoj banci.
02:52
You see, history's rich in irony.
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Vidite, historija je puna ironije.
02:54
We're standing today in the Central Bank,
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Danas smo u Centralnoj banci
02:56
and the Central Bank is responsible for a lot of the things I'm going to be speaking about.
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a ona je odgovorna za mnogo
toga o čemu ću govoriti.
toga o čemu ću govoriti.
02:59
Okay? We're talking about irresponsibility in public office.
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Govorimo o neodgovornosti
u državnoj službi.
u državnoj službi.
03:03
We're speaking about the fact that across the terrace,
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Govorimo o činjenici
da se preko puta
da se preko puta
03:05
the next tower is the Ministry of Finance,
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nalazi toranj Ministarstva finansija,
03:08
and there's a lot of connection with us today,
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i na mnogo načina je
povezan sa nama danas,
povezan sa nama danas,
03:09
so we're speaking within your temple today. Okay?
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tako da mi danas govorimo
u vašem hramu.
u vašem hramu.
03:12
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
03:17
The first thing I want to talk about is that
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Prvo želim da govorim
o tome da smo mi,
o tome da smo mi,
kada se prije oko 40 godina
sav taj novac ulivao u našu zemlju,
sav taj novac ulivao u našu zemlju,
03:19
when all of this money flowed into our country about 40 years ago,
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da je naša tadašnja vlada,
03:23
we embarked, the government of the day embarked
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postigla niz
međudržavnih sporazuma
međudržavnih sporazuma
03:25
on a series of government-to-government arrangements
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03:27
to have rapidly develop the country.
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za brzi razvoj zemlje.
03:29
And some of the largest projects in the country
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Neki od najvećih
projekata u zemlji
projekata u zemlji
03:31
were being constructed through government-to-government arrangements
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su izvedeni putem
međudržavnih sporazuma
međudržavnih sporazuma
03:35
with some of the leading countries in the world,
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sa nekim od vodećih
zemalja svijeta,
zemalja svijeta,
03:36
the United States and Britain and France and so on and so on.
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kao što su SAD,
Britanija, Francuska, itd.
Britanija, Francuska, itd.
03:39
As I said, even this building we're standing in -- that's one of the ironies --
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Kao što rekoh, ironija je da
je čak i ova zgrada
je čak i ova zgrada
03:42
this building was part of that series of complexes,
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bila dio niza kompleksa
03:44
what they called the Twin Towers.
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kojeg su zvali "Blizanci".
03:48
It became so outrageous, the whole situation,
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Kompletna situacija
je postala toliko nečuvena
je postala toliko nečuvena
03:51
that in fact a commission of inquiry was appointed,
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da je zapravo imenovana
istražna komisija
istražna komisija
03:54
and it reported in 1982, 30 years ago it reported --
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koja je 1982. godine,
prije 30 godina,
prije 30 godina,
podnijela Balah izvještaj -- prije 30 godina
03:58
the Ballah Report -- 30 years ago,
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04:01
and immediately the government-to-government arrangements were stopped.
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i međudržavni sporazumi su
momentalno obustavljeni.
momentalno obustavljeni.
Tadašnji Premijer vlade je
otišao u parlament
otišao u parlament
04:05
The then-Prime Minister went to Parliament
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04:06
to give a budget speech, and he said some things that I'll never forget.
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da govori o budžetu i rekao je
nešto što nikada neću zaboraviti.
nešto što nikada neću zaboraviti.
04:10
They went right in here. I was a young man at the time.
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Bili su baš na ovom mjestu.
Tada sam bio mladić.
Tada sam bio mladić.
04:12
It went right into my heart.
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Pogodilo me je pravo u srce.
04:13
And he said that, in fact — Let me see if this thing works.
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I rekao je da, zapravo...
Da vidim radili i ovo.
Da vidim radili i ovo.
Imamo li...? Da.
04:18
Are we getting a, yeah?—
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Evo šta nam je rekao.
04:21
That's what he told us.
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04:23
He told us that, in fact,
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Rekao je da su, zapravo
04:27
two out of every three dollars of our petrodollars
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dva od svaka tri dolara
od naših petro-dolara
od naših petro-dolara
04:30
that we spent, the taxpayers' money,
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koje smo potrošili,
novac poreskih obveznika,
novac poreskih obveznika,
04:32
was wasted or stolen.
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protraćena ili ukradena.
04:34
So the 10 or 15 percent is pure mischief.
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Dakle, 10-15% je čisti nemar.
04:38
As we say, it's a nancy-story. Forget it.
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Kako se kod nas kaže,
to su bapske priče. Zaboravite.
to su bapske priče. Zaboravite.
04:40
That's for little children. We are big people,
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To je za malu djecu.
Mi smo odrasli,
Mi smo odrasli,
04:42
and we're trying to deal with what's happening in our society.
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i pokušavamo da se nosimo sa
situacijom u našem društvu.
situacijom u našem društvu.
04:45
Okay? This is the size of the problem.
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Eto koliki je to problem.
04:47
Okay? Two thirds of the money stolen or wasted.
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Dvije trećine novca je
ukradeno ili protraćeno.
ukradeno ili protraćeno.
04:50
That was 30 years ago. 1982 was Ballah.
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To je bilo prije 30 godina.
1982. godine je bio Balah izvještaj.
1982. godine je bio Balah izvještaj.
04:53
So what has changed?
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I, šta se promijenilo?
04:55
I don't like to bring up embarrassing secrets
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Ne volim da iznosim
sramotne tajne
sramotne tajne
04:57
to an international audience, but I have to.
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pred svjetskom publikom,
ali moram.
ali moram.
05:00
Four months ago, we suffered a constitutional outrage in this country.
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U ovoj zemlji smo prije četiri
mjeseca doživjeli ustavnu sramotu.
mjeseca doživjeli ustavnu sramotu.
To nazivamo "fijasko Člana 34",
05:03
We call it the Section 34 fiasco, the Section 34 fiasco,
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koji je sumnjivi zakon.
Reći ću onako kako jeste.
Reći ću onako kako jeste.
05:08
a suspicious piece of law, and I'm going to say it like it is,
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05:11
a suspicious piece of law
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Taj sumnjivi zakon
05:12
was passed at a suspicious time
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je donesen u sumnjivo vrijeme
05:14
to free some suspects. (Laughter)
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da bi se oslobodili
neki osmunjičeni.
neki osmunjičeni.
05:16
And it was called, those people are called
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Te ljude nazivaju
05:23
the Piarco Airport accused.
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optuženicima sa aerodroma Piarco.
05:24
I'm going to have my own lexicon speaking here today.
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Danas ću koristiti svoju terminologiju.
05:27
They are the Piarco Airport accused.
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To su optuženici
sa aerodroma Piarco.
sa aerodroma Piarco.
05:29
It was a constitutional outrage of the first order,
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To je bila ustavna sramota
prve klase,
prve klase,
05:32
and I have labeled it the Plot to Pervert Parliament.
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i ja sam je nazvao "Zavjera
za izopačenje parlamenta".
za izopačenje parlamenta".
Naša najviša državna institucija
je bila izopačena.
je bila izopačena.
05:36
Our highest institution in our country was perverted.
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05:39
We are dealing with perverts here
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Ovdje se bavimo izopačenicima
05:41
of an economic and financial nature.
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privredne i finansijske prirode.
05:43
Do you get how serious this problem is?
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Shvatate li ozbiljnost problema?
05:45
There was massive protest. A lot of us in this room
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Bili su ogromni protesti.
Mnogi od prisutnih ovdje
Mnogi od prisutnih ovdje
05:47
took part in the protest in different forms.
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su učestvovali u protestitma
na razne načine.
na razne načine.
Najvažnije je da se
Američka ambasada žalila,
Američka ambasada žalila,
05:49
Most importantly, the American embassy complained,
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05:52
so Parliament was swiftly reconvened,
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pa se parlament
ponovo sastao
ponovo sastao
05:55
and the law was reversed, it was repealed.
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i zakon je poništen.
Ukinut je.
Ukinut je.
05:57
That's the word lawyers use. It was repealed.
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Tu riječ koriste pravnici.
Zakon je ukinut.
Zakon je ukinut.
05:59
But the point is
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Ali poenta je u tome
06:02
that Parliament was outwitted in the whole course of events,
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da je u svemu tome
parlament nadmudren.
parlament nadmudren.
06:05
because what really happened is that,
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jer zapravo se desilo to
da je,
da je,
06:08
because of the suspicious passage of that law,
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zbog sumnjivog donošenja
samog zakona,
samog zakona,
06:11
the law was actually passed into effect
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taj zakon stupio na snagu
06:13
on the weekend we celebrated our 50th anniversary of independence,
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za vikend kada smo proslavljali
50. godišnjicu nezavisnosti,
50. godišnjicu nezavisnosti,
06:17
our jubilee of independence.
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naš Dan nezavisnosti.
06:18
So that is the kind of outrage of the thing.
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I to je ta sramota.
06:20
It was kind of a nasty way to get maturation, but we got it,
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Bio je to gadan način
sazrijevanja, ali smo sazreli,
sazrijevanja, ali smo sazreli,
06:24
because we all understood it,
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jer smo svi to razumjeli,
06:25
and for the first time that I could remember,
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i prvi put koliko se ja sjećam,
06:27
there were mass protests against this corruption.
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došlo je do masovnih
protesta protiv te korupcije.
protesta protiv te korupcije.
06:31
And that gave me a lot of hope. Okay?
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I to mi je dalo veliku nadu.
06:33
Those of us who are, sometimes you feel like
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Nama koji se ponekad osjećamo
06:35
you're a little bit on your own doing some of this work.
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kao da smo sami u svemu ovome.
Donošenje i ukidanje zakona
06:38
That passage of the law and the repeal of the law
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06:41
fortified the case of the Piarco Airport accused.
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je učvrstilo slučaj optuženika
sa aerodroma Piarco.
sa aerodroma Piarco.
06:45
So it was one of those really superior double bluff kind of things that took place.
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To je zapravo bila jedna
vrhunska dvostruka prevara.
vrhunska dvostruka prevara.
Ali za šta su bili optuženi?
06:50
But what were they accused of?
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06:52
What was it that they were accused of?
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Za šta su zaista bili optuženi?
06:53
I'm being a bit mysterious for those of you out there. What were they accused of?
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Malo sam vam tajanstven.
Za šta su bili optuženi?
Za šta su bili optuženi?
06:56
We were trying to build, or reconstruct largely,
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Pokušavali smo da izgradimo,
ili obnovimo velikim dijelom,
ili obnovimo velikim dijelom,
06:59
an airport that had grown outdated.
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jedan zastarjeli aerodrom.
07:01
The entire project cost about 1.6 billion dollars,
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Čitav projekat je koštao
oko 1.6 milijardi dolara,
oko 1.6 milijardi dolara,
07:05
Trinidad and Tobago dollars,
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tj. dolara Trinada i Tobaga.
07:08
and in fact, we had a lot of bid-rigging
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Zapravo bilo je tu dosta
namještanja tendera,
namještanja tendera,
07:11
and suspicious activity, corrupt activity took place.
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i sumnjivog i nečistog posla.
07:14
And to get an idea of what it consisted of,
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A da biste shvatili
šta je to bilo,
šta je to bilo,
07:18
and to put it in context in relationship to this whole
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i da biste mogli povezati
sa ovim
sa ovim
07:21
second myth about it being no big thing,
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drugim mitom
kako to nije ništa strašno,
kako to nije ništa strašno,
07:24
we can look at this second slide here.
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možemo pogledati
ovaj drugi slajd.
ovaj drugi slajd.
07:26
And what we have here -- I am not saying so,
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I, šta imamo ovdje?
Nisam ja ovo naveo.
Nisam ja ovo naveo.
07:30
this is the Director of Public Prosecutions in a written statement. He said so.
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To je u pisanoj izjavi naveo
Direktor Javnog tužioca.
Direktor Javnog tužioca.
On nam govori da je od 1.6
milijardi troškova za projekat,
milijardi troškova za projekat,
07:35
And he's telling us that for the $1.6 billion cost of the project,
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07:39
one billion dollars has been traced
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jedna milijarda dolara pronađena
07:42
to offshore bank accounts.
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na računima
u offshore bankama.
u offshore bankama.
07:43
One billion dollars of our taxpayers' money
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Jedna milijarda dolara
poreskih obveznika
poreskih obveznika
07:45
has been located in offshore bank accounts.
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je pronađena na
računima offshore banaka.
računima offshore banaka.
07:49
Being the kind of suspicious person I am,
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Pošto sam sumnjičav po karakteru,
07:51
I am outraged at that, and I'm going to pause here,
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to me razbjesnilo,
i ovdje ću zastati.
i ovdje ću zastati.
07:54
I'm going to pause now and again and bring in different things.
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Pomalo ću zastajati
i uvoditi nove stvari
i uvoditi nove stvari
Sada ću zastati i spomenuti
nešto što sam vidio
nešto što sam vidio
07:56
I'm going to pause here and bring in something I saw
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07:58
in November last year at Wall Street. I was at Zuccotti Park.
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na Wall Street-u, u novembru prošle
godine. Bio sam u parku Zuccotti.
godine. Bio sam u parku Zuccotti.
08:02
It was autumn. It was cool. It was damp. It was getting dark.
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Bila je jesen. Bilo je hladno i vlažno.
Smrkavalo se.
Smrkavalo se.
Ja sam šetao naokolo sa
demonstrantima preko puta
demonstrantima preko puta
08:06
And I was walking around with the protesters
168
470537
1933
08:08
looking at the One Wall Street, Occupy Wall Street movement walking around.
169
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4293
zgrade One Wall Street, oko koje je
bio pokret "Okupirajmo Wall Street".
bio pokret "Okupirajmo Wall Street".
08:12
And there was a lady with a sign, a very simple sign,
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Bila je tu jedna gospođa sa vrlo
jednostavnim transparentom,
jednostavnim transparentom,
08:14
a kind of battered-looking blonde lady,
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2424
pomalo oronula plavuša,
08:17
and the sign was made out of Bristol board, as we say in these parts,
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2823
a transparent je napravljen
na tzv. hamer papiru
na tzv. hamer papiru
i napisan markerom.
08:20
and it was made with a marker.
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08:22
And what it said on that sign hit me right in the center.
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Natpis me je dotaknuo do srži.
08:24
It said, "If you're not outraged, you haven't been paying attention."
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4407
Pisalo je: "Ako niste bijesni,
onda niste obratili pažnju.
onda niste obratili pažnju.
Ako vas sve ovo nije razbjesnilo,
onda niste obratili pažnju.
onda niste obratili pažnju.
08:29
If you're not outraged by all of this, you haven't been paying attention.
176
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08:32
So listen up, because we're getting into even deeper waters.
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Zato poslušajte,
jer zalazimo još dublje.
jer zalazimo još dublje.
Mozak je počeo da radi.
08:36
My brain started thinking.
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Šta ako...
08:38
Well, what if --
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Ipak sam sumnjičav.
Čitam puno špijunske literature.
Čitam puno špijunske literature.
08:41
because I'm suspicious like that. I read a lot of spy novels and stuff.
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Šta ako... (Smijeh)
08:44
What if -- (Laughter)
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08:46
But to make it in these wrongs,
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2524
Da biste preživjeli
među ovim nedjelima
među ovim nedjelima
08:48
you have to read a lot of spy novels
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morate čitati puno
špijunskih romana
špijunskih romana
08:50
and follow some of that stuff, right? (Laughter)
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i pratiti takvu literaturu, zar ne?
08:52
But what if this wasn't the first time?
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4567
A šta ako to
nije bio prvi put?
nije bio prvi put?
Šta ako je to samo prvi put
08:57
What if this is just the first time
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2587
da su ti-i-ti uhvaćeni?
09:00
that the so-and-sos had been caught?
187
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2335
09:02
What if it had happened before? How would I find out?
188
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Šta ako se to i prije dešavalo?
Kako bih ja to saznao?
Kako bih ja to saznao?
Moja dva prva primjera
09:07
Now, the previous two examples I gave
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09:10
were to do with construction sector corruption, okay?
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534116
4056
su imala veze sa korupcijom
u građevinskom sektoru.
u građevinskom sektoru.
Sada imam privilegiju
09:14
And I have the privilege at this time
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09:16
to lead the Joint Consultative Council, which is a not-for-profit.
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da vodim jedno neprofitno
Mješovito konsultantsko vijeće.
Mješovito konsultantsko vijeće.
09:19
We're at jcc.org.tt, and we have the -- we are the leaders
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Naša web adresa je "jcc.org.tt"
i mi smo lideri
i mi smo lideri
09:23
in the struggle to produce a new public procurement system
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3226
u borbi za stvaranje
novog sistema javnih nabavki
novog sistema javnih nabavki
09:26
about how public money is transacted.
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za prenos državnog novca.
09:28
So those of you interested in finding out more about it,
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Oni koji žele da saznaju više
09:30
or joining us or signing up on any of our petitions, please get involved.
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4280
ili da nam se pridruže ili potpišu
neku od peticija, samo izvolite.
neku od peticija, samo izvolite.
09:34
But I'm going to segue to another thing that relates,
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Preći ću na drugu stvar
koja je povezana,
koja je povezana,
09:37
because one of my private campaigns I've been conducting
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2776
jer je jedna od moji ličnih
kampanja koju vodim
kampanja koju vodim
09:39
for over three and a half years
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2336
već duže od tri i po godine
09:42
is for transparency and accountability
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2489
za transparetnost i odgovornost
09:44
around the bailout of CL Financial.
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568909
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u vezi sa pomaganjem
kompaniji "CL Financial".
kompaniji "CL Financial".
09:47
CL Financial is the Caribbean's largest ever conglomerate, okay?
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CL Financial je najveći
konglomerat na Karibima.
konglomerat na Karibima.
09:52
And without getting into all of the details,
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2923
Da ne bih ulazio u detalje,
09:55
it is said to have collapsed — I'm using my words very carefully —
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priča se da je propao.
Pažljivo biram riječi.
Pažljivo biram riječi.
09:58
it's said to have collapsed in January of '09,
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2827
Priča se da je propao
u Januaru 2009. godine
u Januaru 2009. godine
10:01
which is just coming up to nearly four years.
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i od tada je prošlo već
skoro četiri godine.
skoro četiri godine.
10:05
In an unprecedented fit of generosity --
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589453
2812
U jednoj neviđenoj
navali velikodušnosti,
navali velikodušnosti,
10:08
and you have to be very suspicious about these people --
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592265
2483
a morate biti sumnjičavi
kada su ti ljudi u pitanju,
kada su ti ljudi u pitanju,
10:10
in an unprecedented — and I'm using that word carefully —
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594748
2631
u neviđenoj, i ovdje
pažljivo biram riječi,
pažljivo biram riječi,
10:13
unprecedented fit of generosity, the government of the day
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597379
3884
u neviđenoj navali velikodušnosti,
tedašnja vlada
tedašnja vlada
10:17
signed, made a written commitment, to repay all of the creditors.
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601263
3655
potpisuje, pismeno se obavezuje,
da će isplatiti sve kreditore.
da će isplatiti sve kreditore.
10:20
And I can tell you without fear of contradiction
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604918
2322
I kažem vam to bez straha
od oprečnog mišljenja
od oprečnog mišljenja
10:23
that hasn't happened anywhere else on the planet.
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607240
3182
da se to nije desilo
nigdje na planeti.
nigdje na planeti.
10:26
Let's understand, because we lack context.
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610422
1911
Da shvatimo,
jer nam fali konteksta.
jer nam fali konteksta.
10:28
People are telling us it's just like Wall Street. It's not just like Wall Street.
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612333
3005
Ljudi nam kaožu da je to isto
kao na Wall Street-u. E pa nije.
kao na Wall Street-u. E pa nije.
10:31
Trinidad and Tobago is like a place with different laws of physics or biology or something.
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615338
4489
TT je poput mjesta sa različim
zakonima fizike ili biologija, i sl.
zakonima fizike ili biologija, i sl.
10:35
It's not just like anywhere. (Applause)
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4744
Nije baš kao na drugim mjestima.
Nije baš kao na drugim mjestima.
10:40
It's not just like anywhere. It's not just like anywhere.
219
624571
5154
10:45
Here is here, and out there is out there. Okay?
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629725
2831
Ovdje je jedno,
a tamo negdje ne nešto drugo.
a tamo negdje ne nešto drugo.
10:48
I'm serious now.
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632556
1330
Ozbiljan sam.
10:49
Listen. They've had bailouts on Wall Street.
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633886
2983
Poslušajte. Na Wall Streetu su
pomagali kompanijama.
pomagali kompanijama.
10:52
They've had bailouts in London.
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636869
1951
U Londonu su pomagali.
10:54
They've had bailouts in Europe.
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2137
U Evropi su pomagali.
10:56
In Africa, they've had bailouts. In Nigeria, six of the major
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640957
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U Africi su pomagali.
U Nigeriji, šest najvećih
U Nigeriji, šest najvećih
10:59
commercial banks collapsed at the same time as ours, eh?
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643627
2565
komercijanil banaka je propalo
u isto vrijeme kada i naše.
u isto vrijeme kada i naše.
11:02
It's interesting to parallel how the Nigerian experience has --
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646192
2241
Zanimljivo je uporediti kako
su Nigerijci
su Nigerijci
11:04
how they've treated it, and they've treated it
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648433
2390
to riješili,
a riješili su
a riješili su
11:06
very well compared to us.
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1871
jako dobro,
za razliku od nas.
za razliku od nas.
11:08
Nowhere on the planet
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652694
1932
Nigdje na planeti
11:10
have all the creditors been bailed out
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654626
2706
nisu kreditori isplaćeni
11:13
in excess of what their statutory entitlements were.
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657332
2292
više nego što im je
po statutu pripadalo.
po statutu pripadalo.
11:15
Only here. So what was the reason for the generosity?
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659624
3582
Samo ovdje. Pa zbog čega
tolika velikodušnost?
tolika velikodušnost?
11:19
Is our government that generous? And maybe they are.
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663206
2805
Je li naša vlada toliko velikodušna?
A možda i jeste.
A možda i jeste.
11:21
Let's look at it. Let's look into it.
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666011
2016
Da vidmo.
Pogledajmo malo.
Pogledajmo malo.
11:23
So I started digging and writing and so and so on,
236
668027
2768
Tako sam počeo da tražim
i pišem, itd. itd.
i pišem, itd. itd.
11:26
and that work can be found, my personal work
237
670795
1812
i taj rad, moj lični rad,
se može naći
se može naći
11:28
can be found at AfraRaymond.com, which is my name.
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672607
3380
na stranici AfraRaymond.com,
što je ujedno i moje ime.
što je ujedno i moje ime.
11:31
It's a not-for-profit blog that I run.
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675987
2872
To je moj neprofitni blog.
11:34
Not as popular as some of the other people, but there you go.
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678859
2524
Nije popularan kao što su
neki drugi, ali šta je tu je.
neki drugi, ali šta je tu je.
11:37
(Laughter)
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2258
(Smijeh)
11:39
But the point is that the bitter experience of Section 34,
242
683641
4489
Poenta je u tome da me je
to gorko iskustvo Člana 34,
to gorko iskustvo Člana 34,
11:44
that plot to pervert Parliament, that bitter experience
243
688130
2457
ta zavjera za izopačenjem
parlamenta,
parlamenta,
11:46
that took place in August,
244
690587
3086
koja se desila u avgustu,
11:49
when we were supposed to be celebrating our independence,
245
693673
2898
kada smo trebali da slavimo
Dan nezavisnosti,
Dan nezavisnosti,
11:52
going into September, forced me to check myself
246
696571
4664
početkom septembra,
natjerala da se preispitam
natjerala da se preispitam
11:57
and recalculate my bearings,
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701235
2059
provjerim svoj kompas,
11:59
and to go back into some of the work, some of the stuff I'd written
248
703294
2222
i vratim se nekim radovima
koje sam pisao
koje sam pisao
12:01
and some of the exchanges I'd had with the officials
249
705516
2269
i nekim razmjenama
sa zvaničnicima
sa zvaničnicima
12:03
to see what was really what.
250
707785
2004
da vidim šta je zaista šta.
12:05
As we say in Trinidad and Tobago, who is who and what is what?
251
709789
4110
Kao što ovdje kažemo,
koje ko, i šta je šta?
koje ko, i šta je šta?
12:09
Okay? We want to try to recalculate.
252
713899
1824
Želimo da pokušamo da promislimo.
12:11
And I made a Freedom of Information application
253
715723
2424
U maju sam napravio
aplikaciju "Sloboda informacija"
aplikaciju "Sloboda informacija"
12:14
in May this year to the Ministry of Finance.
254
718147
3914
za Ministarstvo finansija.
12:17
The Ministry of Finance is the next tower over.
255
722061
2058
Ministarstvo finansija je u
sljedećem tornju preko puta.
sljedećem tornju preko puta.
12:20
This is the other context.
256
724119
1675
To je drugi kontekst.
12:21
The Ministry of Finance, we are told,
257
725794
2076
Rečeno nam je da
Ministarstvo finansija
Ministarstvo finansija
12:23
is subject to the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act.
258
727870
3829
podliježe odredbama
Zakona o slobodi informacija.
Zakona o slobodi informacija.
12:27
I'm going to take you through a worked example of whether that's really so.
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731699
3304
Dat ću vam jedan praktični
primjer da vidite je li baš tako.
primjer da vidite je li baš tako.
12:30
The Central Bank in which we stand this morning
260
735003
2888
Centralna banka u kojoj
se jutros nalazimo
se jutros nalazimo
12:33
is immune from the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act.
261
737891
4197
ne podliježe odredbama
Zakona o slobodi informisanja.
Zakona o slobodi informisanja.
12:37
So in fact, you can't ask them anything,
262
742088
1679
Stoga im ne možete ništa tražiti,
12:39
and they don't have to answer anything.
263
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1693
i ne moraju ništa odgovarati.
12:41
That is the law since 1999.
264
745460
2822
Taj zakon važi od 1999. godine.
12:44
So I plunged into this struggle, and I asked four questions.
265
748282
3576
Zato sam uskočio u tu borbu
i postavio četiri pitanja.
i postavio četiri pitanja.
12:47
And I'll relate the questions to you in the short form with the reply,
266
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3689
Reći ću vam ta pitanja ukratko
skupa sa odgovorima,
skupa sa odgovorima,
12:51
so you could understand, as I said, where we are.
267
755547
2615
tako da shvatite
gdje se nalazimo.
gdje se nalazimo.
12:54
Here is not like anywhere else.
268
758162
1521
Ovdje nije kao negdje drugo.
12:55
Question number one:
269
759683
2978
Prvo pitanje:
12:58
I asked to see the accounts of CL Financial,
270
762661
2590
Tražio sam da vidim
račune kompanije CL Financial,
račune kompanije CL Financial,
13:01
and if you can't show me the accounts --
271
765251
2472
a ako ne možete da mi
pokažete račune,
pokažete račune,
13:03
the Minister of Finance is making statements,
272
767723
1965
Ministar finansija daje izjave,
13:05
passing new laws and giving speeches and so on.
273
769688
2615
donosi nove zakone,
drži govore i tako dalje,
drži govore i tako dalje,
13:08
What are the figures he's relying on?
274
772303
2291
na koje se on podatke poziva?
13:10
It's like that joke: I want whatever he's drinking.
275
774594
2620
To je poput onog vica:
"Ja ću ono što onaj tamo pije."
"Ja ću ono što onaj tamo pije."
13:13
And they wrote back and said to me,
276
777214
1599
I oni su odgovorili i
napisali mi,
napisali mi,
13:14
well what do you really mean?
277
778813
1711
šta tačno mislite?
13:16
So they hit my question with a question.
278
780524
2391
Odgovorili su mi pitanjem.
13:18
Second point: I want to see
279
782915
3121
Druga stvar: Želim da vidim
13:21
who are the creditors of the group who have been repaid?
280
786036
3699
ko su kreditori grupe
kojoj je plaćeno?
kojoj je plaćeno?
13:25
Let me pause here to point out to you all
281
789735
2004
Dozvolite da prekinem ovdje
da vam naglasim
da vam naglasim
13:27
that 24 billion dollars of our money has been spent on this.
282
791739
3681
da je zo ovo potrošeno
24 milijarde dolara našeg novca.
24 milijarde dolara našeg novca.
13:31
That is about three and a half billion U.S. dollars
283
795420
2399
To je oko 3,5 milijarde
američkih dolara.
američkih dolara.
13:33
coming out of a small -- we used to be resource-rich --
284
797819
3496
koji potiču iz male... a nekada
smo bili karipska zemlja
smo bili karipska zemlja
13:37
Caribbean country. Okay?
285
801315
2372
bogata prirodnim resursima.
13:39
And I asked the question,
286
803687
1548
I postavio sam pitanje,
13:41
who was getting that three and a half billion dollars?
287
805235
4146
ko je dobio te 3,5 milijarde dolara?
13:45
And I want to pause again to bring up context,
288
809381
2257
I opet ću prekinuti radi konteksta,
13:47
because context helps us to get clarity understanding this thing.
289
811638
3403
jer nam pomaže da
jasnije shvatimo ovo.
jasnije shvatimo ovo.
13:50
There's a particular individual who is in the government now.
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U vladi sada postoji jedna
posebna osoba.
posebna osoba.
13:53
The name of the person doesn't matter.
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Njeno ime nije bitno.
13:55
And that person made a career
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Ta osoba je izgradila karijeru
13:57
out of using the Freedom of Information Act
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koristeći Zakon o slobodi informacija
14:00
to advance his political cause.
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2119
u korist svog političkog cilja.
14:02
Okay? His name isn't important.
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3243
Njegovo ime nije važno.
14:05
I wouldn't dignify it. I'm on a point.
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Ne bih mu davao značaj.
Dolazim do poente.
Dolazim do poente.
14:07
The point is, that person made a career out of using
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831939
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Poenta je da je ta osoba
izgradila karijeru
izgradila karijeru
14:10
the Freedom of Information Act to advance his cause.
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koristeći Zakon o slobodi
informacija za svoj cilj.
informacija za svoj cilj.
14:13
And the most famous case
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837323
2314
A najpoznatiji slučaj je onaj
14:15
was what we came to call the Secret Scholarship Scandal,
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839637
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kojeg smo nazvali
Skandal tajnog stipendiranja,
Skandal tajnog stipendiranja,
14:18
where in fact there was about 60 million dollars in government money
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gdje se oko 60 miliona
dolara državnog novca
dolara državnog novca
14:21
that had been dispersed in a series of scholarships,
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845419
2872
rasulo u čitavom
nizu stipendija
nizu stipendija
14:24
and the scholarships hadn't been advertised, and so and so on and so on.
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848291
2724
a stipendije nisu objavljivane,
itd. itd.
itd. itd.
14:26
And he was able to get the court, using that act of Parliament,
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851015
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On je bio u stanju da natjera
sud, pomoću Zakona o parlamentu,
sud, pomoću Zakona o parlamentu,
14:29
Freedom of Information Act,
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854006
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Zakona o slobodi informaicja,
14:31
to release the information,
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855639
1977
da objavi te podatke
14:33
and I thought that was excellent.
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i ja sam mislio da je to odlično.
14:36
Fantastic.
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Fantastično.
14:40
But you see, the question is this:
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864147
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Ali vidite, pitanje je sljedeće:
14:41
If it's right and proper for us to use the Freedom of Information Act
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866097
4213
Ako je ispravno da koristimo
Zakon o slobodi informacija
Zakon o slobodi informacija
14:46
and to use the court
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i da koristimo sud
14:49
to force a disclosure about 60 million dollars in public money,
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874040
4742
da prisilno objelodani oko 60
milona dolara državnog novca,
milona dolara državnog novca,
14:54
it must be right and proper
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mora da je ispravno
14:56
for us to force a disclosure about 24 billion dollars.
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880473
4141
da natjeramo i objelodanjivanje
24 milijarde dolara.
24 milijarde dolara.
15:00
You see? But the Ministry of Finance,
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884614
2588
Vidite? Ali, Ministarstvo finansija,
15:03
the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Finance,
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Stalni sekretar Ministarstva finansija,
15:04
wrote me and said to me, that information is exempt too.
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888804
3057
mi je pisao i rekao da je
i taj podatak izuzet.
i taj podatak izuzet.
15:07
You see? This is what we're dealing with, okay?
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Vidite li o čemu se radi?
15:10
The third thing I will tell you
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Treće što ću vam reći
15:12
is that I also asked
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896984
3005
jeste da sam takođe pitao
15:15
for the directors of CL Financial,
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da li su direktori "CL Financial",
15:18
whether in fact they were making filings under our Integrity in Public Life Act.
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902985
4345
slali prijave u skladu sa Zakonom
o integritetu u javnom životu
o integritetu u javnom životu
15:23
We have an Integrity in Public Life Act
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907330
1618
Imamo Zakon o integritetu
u javnom životu
u javnom životu
15:24
as part of our framework supposed to safeguard the nation's interest.
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908948
4749
kao dio okvira koji bi trebao
da čuva državni interes.
da čuva državni interes.
15:29
And public officials are supposed to file
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2288
Javni zvaničnici moraju prijaviti
15:31
to say what it is they have in terms of assets and liabilities.
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915985
6465
šta je to što imaju u smislu
sredstava i obaveza.
sredstava i obaveza.
15:38
And of course I've since discovered that they're not filing,
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922450
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I naravno, od tada sam otkrio
da ne prijavljuju
da ne prijavljuju
15:40
and in fact the Minister of Finance has not even asked them to file.
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924865
2879
i da im Ministar finansija zapravo
nikada nije tražio da prijave.
nikada nije tražio da prijave.
15:43
So here we have it. We have a situation where
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Dakle, ovdje imamo situaciju
15:48
the basic safeguards of integrity and accountability
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932661
4894
gdje su odbačeni
osnovna zaštita integriteta,
osnovna zaštita integriteta,
15:53
and transparency have all been discarded.
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937555
1993
odgovornosti i transpertnosi.
15:55
I've asked the question in the legal and required fashion.
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939548
2244
Pitanje sam postao zakonski
i prema pravilu.
i prema pravilu.
15:57
It's been ignored.
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941792
2488
Izignorisano je.
16:00
The sort of thing that motivated us around Section 34,
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944280
3175
Zbog onog što nas je
motivisalo oko Člana 34
motivisalo oko Člana 34
16:03
we need to continue to work on that. We can't forget it.
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947455
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moramo da nastavimo raditi
na tome. Ne možemo to zaboraviti.
na tome. Ne možemo to zaboraviti.
16:05
I have defined this as the single largest expenditure in the country's history.
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950057
3598
To sam definisao ka najveći
pojedinačni rashod u historiji zemlje.
pojedinačni rashod u historiji zemlje.
16:09
It's also the single largest example
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953655
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Takođe je najveći
pojedinačni primjer
pojedinačni primjer
16:12
of public corruption according to this equation.
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956236
5012
javne korupcije,
a prema ovoj jednačini.
a prema ovoj jednačini.
16:17
And this is my reality check.
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I ovo je moja provjera stvarnosti.
16:20
Where you have an expenditure of public money
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964217
2346
Tamo gdje se novac javno troši
16:22
and it is without accountability
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2955
bez odgovornosti
16:25
and it's without transparency,
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969518
1640
i bez transparentnosti,
16:27
it will always be equal to corruption,
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2256
to će uvijek biti jednako korupciji,
16:29
whether you're in Russia or Nigeria or Alaska,
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3205
bilo da ste u Rusiji, Nigeriji ili na Aljasci.
16:32
it will always be equal to corruption, and that is what we are dealing with here.
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4200
Uvijek će se izjednačavati sa
korupcijom, i o tome govorime.
korupcijom, i o tome govorime.
16:36
I'm going to continue the work
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980819
2311
Nastavit ću sa radom,
16:39
to press on, to get some resolution
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983130
4346
pritiskati, da dobijem neka rješenja
16:43
of those matters at the Ministry of Finance.
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987476
1710
tih stvari u Ministarstvu finansija.
16:45
If it is I have to go to court personally, I will do that.
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989186
2552
Ako budem morao lično da
idem na sud, otići ću.
idem na sud, otići ću.
16:47
We will continue to press on.
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991738
1188
Nastavit ćemo sa pristiscima.
16:48
We will continue to work within JCC.
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992926
1951
Nastavit ćemo da radimo
unutar JCC.
unutar JCC.
16:50
But I want to step back from the Trinidad and Tobago context
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994877
2701
Ali želim da se odmaknem
od konteksta TT
od konteksta TT
16:53
and bring something new to the table
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1919
i iznesem nešto novo
16:55
in terms of an international example.
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999497
1826
u smislu međunarodnog primjera.
16:57
We had the journalist [Heather] Brooke speaking
355
1001323
2901
Govorio nam je novinar Brok
17:00
about her battle against government corruption,
356
1004224
2317
o njenoj borbi protiv korupcije vlade
17:02
and she introduced me to this website, Alaveteli.com.
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5437
i ona mi je pokazala ovu
web stranicu: alaveteli.com
web stranicu: alaveteli.com
17:07
And Alaveteli.com is a way for us to have an open database
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1011978
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Alavateli.com je način da
imamo otvorenu bazu podataka
imamo otvorenu bazu podataka
17:12
for Freedom of Information applications,
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1016648
2779
za prijave slobode informacija,
17:15
and speak with each other.
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1019427
2116
i da razgovaramo međusobno.
17:17
I could see what you're applying for.
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1021543
2237
Ja mogu vidjeti
za šta se vi prijavljujete.
za šta se vi prijavljujete.
17:19
You could see what I applied for and what replies I got.
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1023780
3532
Vi možete da vidite za šta sam
se ja prijavio i kako mi je odgovoreno.
se ja prijavio i kako mi je odgovoreno.
17:23
We can work on it together. We need to build a collective database
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1027312
2936
Možemo skupa raditi na njoj.
Moramo izgraditi kolektivnu bazu podataka
Moramo izgraditi kolektivnu bazu podataka
17:26
and a collective understanding of where we are to go to the next point.
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i skupa razumjeti kuda ćemo dalje.
17:29
We need to increase the consciousness.
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1033552
1640
Moramo podići svijest.
17:31
The final thing I want to say is in relation to this one,
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Posljednja stvar koju želim da kažem
je povezana sa ovim,
je povezana sa ovim,
17:35
which is a lovely website from India
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što je ujedno i divna web stranica iz Indije
17:36
called IPaidABribe.com.
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1041024
2442
pod nazivom IPaidABribe.com
17:39
They have international branches,
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1786
Oni imaju međunarodne ogranke
17:41
and it's important for us to tune into this one.
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1045252
2444
i važno nam je da se uključimo u ovu.
17:43
IPaidABribe.com is really important,
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1047696
2456
IPaidABribe.com je veoma važan
17:46
a good one to log on to and see.
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1050152
2416
dobar za posjetiti i vidjeti.
17:48
I'm going to pause there. I'm going to ask you for your courage.
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Ovdje ću zastati i zamoliti vas
da budete hrabri.
da budete hrabri.
17:51
Discard the first myth; it is a crime.
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1055195
2221
Odbacite prvi mit. To jeste kriminal.
17:53
Discard the second myth; it is a big thing.
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1057416
2318
Odbacite drugi mit.
To jeste strašno.
To jeste strašno.
17:55
It's a huge problem. It's an economic crime.
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1059734
2498
To je ogroman problem.
To je privredni kriminal.
To je privredni kriminal.
17:58
And let us continue working together
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2048
I nastavimo da radimo skupa.
18:00
to betterment in this situation,
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da poboljšamo situaciju,
18:01
stability and sustainability in our society. Thank you.
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stabilnost i održivost u
našem društvu. Hvala.
našem društvu. Hvala.
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Afra Raymond - Transparency activistA leading expert in the fields of property valuation and project management, Afra Raymond is battling the government corruption rampant in his country, Trinidad and Tobago.
Why you should listen
Afra Raymond calls out government corruption, demanding more transparency and accountability from the leaders of Trinidad and Tobago. His work in recent years has focused on the CL Financial collapse of 2009 and subsequent government bailout, which Raymond says operated “with different laws of physics” than bailouts of financial institutions in other countries. Writing on topics like white-collar crime, good governance and national development, Raymond shows that corruption shouldn't be a given. He wrote the column “Property Matters” in The Business Guardian from 2004 through 2012. Now, he writes on his own website, AfraRaymond.com.
Raymond looks at corruption through his lens as an expert in the fields of property valuation, project appraisal, development planning and management. He is a Chartered Surveyor and Managing Director of Raymond & Pierre Limited and was elected a Fellow of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (RICS) in January 2011. He has served on a number of Boards in various positions including Executive Member of the Federation of Black Housing Organizations (FBHO) in London, Board member of the Trinidad Building & Loan Association (TBLA), Director of EPL Properties Limited (EPL), a wholly-owned subsidiary of Eastern Credit Union (ECU) and Immediate Past-President of the Institute of Surveyors of Trinidad & Tobago (ISTT).
Afra Raymond | Speaker | TED.com